Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > Variations of Figure Eights with Doubles

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:variations of vertical figure 8 with double staves
or
one monkey's arbitrary but useful way of thinking about sticks
or
this was originally a reply to something else, but it mutated horribly, so i'm whacking it in it's own thread. Make of it what you will...

Figure 8s are the first thing people generally learn with doubles.
Its the basic building block of most doubles spinning.
and the setup for most vertical throws/contact.
the resulting heady mixture of subjective & objective musings is below...

The way this monkey thinks of things:
There's 8 flavours of basic figure-eight with doubles.
and they're defined by three variables.

1
Forwards\Backwards
just like those poi things.

2
Relative timing: generally sticks are:
parallel timed (0 degrees offset)
or
split timed (180 degrees offset)
When you split-time poi, they point in opposite directions,
but a staff points both ways, so the 180 offset is less noticeable,
unless you look at the hands (pointing the same way or opposite ways) and not the sticks.

3
Relative rotation:
Follow: sticks rotating same direction.
Cross: sticks rotating opposite directions
Follow is sometimes referred to as 'weave', Cross as 'butterfly', for obvious poi reasons. Please note that in this sense, they DO NOT directly refer to the exact moves of the same name. Only the relative rotation of the sticks.

So the 8 flavours are:

Forwards Split Follow (ready salted)
Backwards Split Follow (salted ready)
Forwards Parallel Follow (prawn cocktail)
Backwards Parallel Follow (cocktail prawn)
Forwards Parallel Cross (salt n vinegar)
Backwards Parallel Cross (vinegar and salt)
Forwards Split Cross (cheese and onion)
Backwards Split Cross (onion and cheese)

It should be noted that Parallel Follow (forward and backward) is extremely awkward and ugly. And i don't like Prawn Cocktail crisps either. urgh.

Some Observations

Split time stay on opposite sides of the body switching side simultanusley at the same time.
Parallel time stay on the same side of the body also switching side simultanusley at the same time.
The above is true of both follow and cross.

The sticks always are always transposed (and therefore parallel) when in follow, and mirrored when in cross.
The mirroring of cross spinning sticks is:
vertical when parallel timed
and horizontal when split timed

So 180 degrees of follow double sticks would look something like this:
Code:! ! to / / to - - to \ \ to ! !
And the same in (parallel) cross would look something like this:
Code:! ! to / \ to - - to \ / to ! !

i'll stop short of talking bout quarter-timing or flowers & similar for now...
and i'm not touching extra beats with a barge pole just yet... ooh the complexifications.

but if you reckon that i'm not talking rubbish, and this stuff might even be helpful (shurely not) then say so and i might come back to add stuff smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:yay!

simain explains sticks at last biggrin

please, please, please add more dude!

i plan to plunder your staff knowledge vaults this summer anyway but quarter time and bf variations would be my personal request for the 'next chapters' here...

however since one of the few things i can actually do with doubles stems from the flavour that you just decided to call 'ugly and awkward', i might not come back here.

or i might choose to observe that the exact flavour i'm talking about (cawn procktail) is not listed here and put it down to the fact that you haven't played with x:y timings with your sticks enough wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:shame on you simian, you sould be mentioning 90 degree sets, cos it s a huge part of double staff, I call them crosses. there is loads of cross stuff, togeter and apart, get bluecat to show you btb cross weave sometime....

and on the subject of prawn cocktail, I love it! loads to do here too, and it leads into seperations, centrepoint isolations and all sorts. spank da monkey!

nice one simian, If you have a look through the old board (and you will have to go waaaaay back here) for my original thoughts about double staff paterns, there might be some stuff you can transplant. I would do it, but im very very tired.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:whose monkey did nx just spank now?

ubblol

to be fair to the lad tom, he did say "i'll stop short of talking bout quarter-timing" which kinda explains why he didn't mention crosses (which you would call 'one-handed quarter time' if you were weird like me wink).


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Not that i have nay idea what you guys are talking about anymore... frown

BUT...How about a figure 8 motion wher ethe staffs stay still and your body does the figure 8?



HoP Posting Guidelines
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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Charles, we haven't mentioned anything thats really complicated to do.
You do most of the figure 8s on Art of Staff. Do you not like the poi terminology? It's so relevant to what you can do with double staff.

This thread i want to develop a bit into the different basic ways of spinning two sticks around without contact or throws or acro or stylistic matters or any of that. And i'd love to see a firmer foundation of terminology for talking about double staff. you do doubles, and if you don't understand what i'm talking about then thats not very promising frown

Quote:
How about a figure 8 motion wher ethe staffs stay still and your body does the figure 8?

Thats already an extremely popular concept. It's called poledancing biggrin


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:grrr cole, I said he should go into quartertime cos i knew he didnt, and you dont have to do crosses in one hand tongue

simian, if you want to explore basics, why dont you go into 1 beats and combinations?

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:because 180 spins are actually more complex than 360s tongue



*****************************

edit - 180 & 360 meaning degrees of spin before staff switches side of the body



hmm perhaps it'd be handy to add a second number to denote how twisted your wrist/arm is with potential spins to normal (staff vertical, thumb upward, arm straight)

So fig 8 is a series of 360 (180) spins.

a forwards low doublespin from behind to in front (aka fwd shotgun) is a 540 (360) spin from any xxx (180) entry.

a forwards high doublespin from in front to behind is also 540 (360) from an xxx (180) entry.

a series of low doublespin to high doublespin to low... is a series of 720 (360) spins.



a Triplespin from a xxx (180) entry gives you 720 (540). But a series of high to low to high triplespins are all 1080 (540) spins.



and half spins are a bit wierd because they give you a (0) entry.



i can't do any quadruplespins which'd be (720) entries. I suspect they'd make you look bizarrely curled up like a mollusc if you attempted them.



Cool, i really like that. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense. And if its a bit off topic...



wow, quite an edit. whoops.

***************************



all in good time mr tom wink

EDITED_BY: simian (1075822417)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:knew i shouldn't really be posting in here frown

sorry tom...

*runs off with tail between legs*


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:get back here Cole. Sensible voices are always required.

i just looked at that big "figure eight = 360 (180)" digression i did.

i just realised that i shouldn't be trying to define spins from the point they change sides.

if i just define a spin as going from normal to normal
(normal = untwisted arm holding stick on one side of body, thumb pointing upward)
then it only needs the first number, not the second.

doh!


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Definition of my terms: Figure 8, Doublespin, Triplespin



This stuff has all been on HoP before, but not collected and seen together in the way i like to think. Well, not that i've seen...



This is intended to help people understand things they already do, and possibly help people notice 'missing pieces' from their spinning.



This isn't meant as a "How To..." guide for staff newcomers, although they could find it useful. But i won't be stopping to explain how to perform every twist of the wrist in detail.



and it isn't meant for [Nx?] because he knows it all already and is only here to point out my mistakes tongue wink



Everything that follows is described as if wallplane. It can all be transferred to wheel plane with a little translation.



Figure 8 (Singlespins)



These instructions are for Forwards and Backwards Fig 8.



If we begin in normal position, arm straight out, slightly to the front OR the rear of the body, with thumb pointing up.

We twist the staff 180 so the thumb is pointing down.



At this point the staff should cross from the rear of your body to the front, or vice versa.



The staff untwists 180 and is now back in the normal position.



So the staff has spun 360 (one full rotation) at this point, and you are back in the normal position.



That's one side of the figure eight, repeat once more to perform a "full" figure eight.



Doublespins



Doublespins add an extra 180 twist into the pattern. There are four different doublespins: Low Forward, High Forward, Low Backward and High Backward. They all feel quite different. The list is in order of the one i found easiest to the one i found hardest.



NOTE TO THE EASILY DISCOURAGED: Often when first learning doublespins, they can seem almost impossible to get smooth and flowing. Thats because the timing must be far more exact than other things you're likely to have learnt yet. Rest assured that practice does pay off, and soon they'll be as easy as the figure eight.



The following applies to all four doublespins:



Begin at the rear of your body for Low Forward or High Backward doublespins.

Begin at the front for High Forward or Low Backward doublespins.



Spin the staff 180 in the appropriate direction (forward or backward)



Now you get another 180 before switching to the other side of the body.



This is acheived with twisting of the wrist and arm.

(That's all the detail i'm going into for now, for the sake of simplification. If anyone wants more details, ask smile )



Notice that the Low Doublespins go underneath your shoulder, around your hip, when switching side, and the High Doublespins go above the shoulder straight past the head.



After switching side, the staff has spun 360 from normal, and is thus twisted up 360 degrees.



Untwist all of that to return to the normal position. Untwisting is much easier than twisting smile



So the staff has spun 720 (two full rotations) from normal to normal. Thats a full doublespin.



An interesting thing about doublespins is that they rotate 180 down the length of the staff whenever you are switching side, due to the way your wrist is twisted. This is practically unnoticeable if your staff has rotational symmetry down it's length, which almost all staffs do.



Triplespins



Ultrashort description follows. i won't be chatting about using these with doubles, cos i'm just starting to get my head round it myself.



The four triplespins are exactly like the four doublespins, but you twist (and contort your body if necessary) until it twists another 180 before switching side.



For those not keeping count, that means:





Start from normal position

Twist 540 (one and a half rotations)

move to opposite side

Untwist 540

And you're back in normal



That sounds easy enough. i'll leave it at that. ubbangel


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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BamBam
BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London
Member Since: 1st Dec 2001
Total posts: 1810
Posted:Simion you're great kiss

Love and snuggles

Lisa
(the sun-burned one)
X


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:eep! redface ubbangel

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Must say I never thought to try triples. Do you use them much? I gave them a go yesterday and they felt really hard.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Just starting to.

my forward triples are pretty smooth, but the backwards ones still look pooey and awkward frown

Double Triples feel awesome crazy biggrin

they do fall into that "initially much more hard than impressive" category.

but i figure once they're effortless my spinning will look much nicer overall.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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