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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Many of you read the thread about what happened in my home last week...the fire. I thank you for your support and sympathies.However, there is something that is really interesting that emerged from all this. I received a phone call amidst all the clean up last week from a representative from the Camel Cigarette Club. They are presenting the 7 Pleasures Promotions Parties, and I am to be part of these. This, obviously, has the potential to lead to much more and be ***very*** lucrative.So anyway, I did ask the woman about who this is promoting to and such things. My understanding is that these parties are late night and for those over 21. Also to work for the company you need to be over 21, an age which I figure if you are going to start smoking you probably have already anyway.I hmmmmed and really thought about this from a moral standpoint, but decided to do this because it is not towards kids. They are talking the possibility of a photo campaign as well, which sits a little uneasy with me, because is reaches a more wide age range, but I am still not totally thinking clearly about anything.I am excited about the promo parties though.I know Adam Rice said awhile ago he faced something similar, but I could not find the thread.So what do you all think?What is your moral line in a situation like this?Thanks.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:7 Pleasures? And these are?
Non-Https Image Link
That reminds me, must go find that thread on the 7 day tantric pleasure thingy!I think your decision to do it is right. By performing you're not endorsing or directly promoting Camel lights. You're not the marketing director directing who to advertise at, you're a performer they're hiring to make a promotional night more fun.And you're performing at an event for adults. Adults have the ability to choose whether to do something or not. Does anyone over 12 not know smoking is bad for them? I doubt it. By 18/21 people are strong enough to make the choice for their own sakes.The photo campaign - find out more. Where are the photos going to be used? It's probably to further promote the night, again aimed at adults, not a photo of you on billboards saying 'Smoke these!'. I know in Europe there's really strict rules on tobacco companies advertising (my company does the Philip Morris website), and it's soon to be banned in the UK. A smoking advert can't be directly targeted to under 16s and can't contain any photos of kids, etc...Also, if you're working for the devil, remember the devil pays well. Set a damn good fee and haggle up! If sounds like a good gig, so good luck!Edit==>Quick addition. Pele, this is a personal choice, and one that you've already made and comfortable with. End of the day it's your choice and your conscience.Your employment is not going to add to any evil. You'll be taking money away from Camel and putting it to better uses, like rebuilding a home for you and your son.A similar conundrum. You find a $100 bill on the pavement one day. Somehow you know it's been gained illegally but accidentally dropped. However there is no way to return it to whomever it was taken from. What do you do? Do you leave it on the floor, and ignore the decision? Do you destroy the money because it's tainted? Do you buy yourself that lovely pair of trainers you've got your eye on? Or do you do something good with it, like give it to charity or rebuild your burnt down life?[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 19 March 2002).]


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Firefairy


member
Location: UK

Total posts: 115
Posted:mmm tough one. It seems to have come at the perfect time for you - in need of cash to replace stuff - so the angels could be smiling on you.whats in your heart?tobacco companies have alot to answer for - the layers go deeper than adviertising to kids (slave labour/advertising to poor countries and some say mafia tactics) and of course adults get hooked when they are kids so is this there much of a moral difference?However, you could put some of the money you get to good use as well as personal use, then maybe youd feel better about doing it. Someone else WILL do it and they may not be as responsible as you.Hope this helps. Peace love and light.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Dude, that's a tricky one. Every one has their own "good and evil" standards. I know for me, the tobacco industry of today is one of the largest evils I can think of.I always laugh at the fact that there are people working feverishly to try and uncover conspiracy theories and when one is out in the open (years of lying resulting in countless deaths) everyone seems to shrug and say "ah, what are you going to do"... People attack every major corporation for every little thing but when it's as blatant as killing your customers it seems that "let the buyer beware" is enough.The number of products taken off of the market for being "dangerous to consumers" and one that alters your brain chemistry to make you buy more and then kills you is legal.Cigarettes killed my grandfather and may someday kill my girlfriend. If it was me, I wouldn't do it.But I wouldn't think less of you if you did. Honestly.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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theblackunicorn


member
Location: fort worth, TX, USA

Total posts: 119
Posted:it not like you are handing someone a pack and forcing them to light up pele....you aren't even directly endorsing camel...you are just doing what you love and are good at. and if you get paid for it, well, you deserve it and at this time in your life you could use it. i would never think less of you for taking and this job when you need it. and i dont see how anyone could. may your flames sing the songs that the goddess has placed in your heart and soul. and may the world shit their pants when they see what you can do. lots of luck..jokker------------------'' not all who wander are lost'' J.R.R. Tolkien'' its better to burn out...then to fade away'' Def Leppard

its to dying in anothers arms and why i had to try it......

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firecat


member
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Total posts: 7
Posted:perhaps I'm a bit biased cause I've been a smoker for years - but I'd do it! do they need anybody in TX? I've always felt like the goal of promotions and events like these are to get people who already smoke to try a new brand. & I think you're right that most smokers started before they were 21. So doubt that attending the party would be contributing to anyone new smoking - unless from trying to learn some fiery tricks that they saw you doing. LOL.Also - we get a Camel propaganda magazine. It usually features photos from events they host. Perhaps that is all they wanted the photos for - no worries there about spreading evil as it's sent only to smokers over 21 who have signed up for the Camel mailing list. But definitely check into what they intend to use the photos for. you'll probably want a specific contract about where they will be published, not give them blanket rights to use YOUR image - or you may find yourself unexpectedly in an ad that you aren't comfortable with.

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Yeah, I can't find that thread either, Pele. I'm actually in the same dilemma--I'm one of the fire people in Austin's round of the same event (small world, huh?). I was not approached directly by Joe Camel though--if I had been, I would have declined. I was approached by a friend, who had already accepted the gig and needed to recruit others to round it out. That's what made the difference--I was flattered, and inclined to help out a friend. Plus, I'm not sure if he mentioned who the sponsor was before I said yes.The issue of image rights is not one I had given enough consideration to. I need to follow up on that.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Decisions decisions...Never an easy choice...I'd have to say the aforementioned, "what does your heart tell you?" as the biggest factor.Following that, is the work something you would do for another company or is directly related to aspects of the industry you dislike.I have no problem with doing a Xmas do or a ball for a cigarette companys staff, as it's not related directly to the product.I was offered a gig that was promoting a weight loss drug directly to consumers and I turned it down straight away. Had it been only to doctors and health professionals, I think I would have accepted it.Go with your gut feelings, because that will the part of you that will make you regret it should you ignore them...------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 19 March 2002).]

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thanks everyone. I am going to do them. After my meeting with the promotions group yesterday, this opened up alot for me. They not only want me to do this in one city, but in several. Also, they handle the promo's for alcohol companies as well, but they handle it all very responsibly. I have no problems yet doing the actual performances.The visual rights, however Adam, are handed away in the initial contract, to let you know. It was said in it that when you perform your image (video or otherwise) will be taken and can be used in future promotional material, including videos and print ads. If your friend signed that contract and you work under that friend, this includes you too. I am looking into some loopholes I found.Thanks all for the wonderful advice!------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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theblackunicorn


member
Location: fort worth, TX, USA

Total posts: 119
Posted:right on....have a great time and go home and rebuild the house for you and your son. i cnat think of anyone better suited to do it and i know you will kick some serious camel ass. congrats pele...you desrve it.jokker------------------'' not all who wander are lost'' J.R.R. Tolkien'' its better to burn out...then to fade away'' Def Leppard

its to dying in anothers arms and why i had to try it......

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nomad
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France

Total posts: 356
Posted:I meant to post something here for a while but i've been travelling. I thought about this post a lot and want to think about it not necessarily from the cigarette perspective but from the art/corporate/ethics standpoint, so this might be a little bit of a different topic. Basically, i have been wondering where to draw the line (as an artist) and when it is that you "sell out". The reason why i have been thinking about it is that my group has the opportunity to do some shows this summer, some of them "corporate jobs". We did a big show for a major casino in the US last year and even if i didn't have a problem back then, i've been thinking about it since.I see different scenarios: corporate sponsorship, participation in direct advertising/promotion, corporate shows. I don't think i would feel too comfortable performing for a promotion show that is directly meant to.... help a company sell more stuff. If a company sponsors a show, that's fine. Business money has always been supporting the arts and i have no problem with that. What band doesn't tour with a big sponsor? Not many (Radiohead comes to my mind, for their last european tour in the big tent) because someone has to lay down the cash and record companies don't always want to do it. Painters, scupltors, writers, have benefactors, either rich individuals or companies.Doing a corporate show is different. As opposed to the sponsorship deal, here you are directly being hired BY the company to entertain their employees/clients for a special event, an annual meeting, etc. A true artist probably has nothing to do there, representing a corporate entity. It's like Sting singing at the Windows XP Launch in NYC (for some reason that's the only example that comes to my mind). Can you imagine the Beattles singing for Exxon-Mobil's annual meeting or Hendrix playing for General Motors new car launch? I can't. On the other hand, one can argue that if you are a performer, it is no different to be hired by Microsoft or by Joe Shmoe for his daughter's wedding or by a Rennaissance Faire. It is your job and you are just doing your job, regardless who the employer is. (this leads me to ask whether being an artist and being a performer is the same, but that's a totally different topic)(Mmmm.... maybe i'll start it on another thread).Finally, there is the direct promotion and advertising: Aerosmith singing for the Gap, Blue Man Group playing around in an Intel commercial.... or Pele spinning fire for Camel (dont take this personnaly Pele, we've talked about it and i dont like you less for doing it, but it happens to be the scenario that started this topic). After thinking about it, I would tend to say that it is not the artist's job to help these companies sell more products. (please note that I am not discussing the ethics of the companies and what they sell - i.e. a product highly addicte and deadly, or clothes made by young children working in poor conditions and being paid shameful salaries - my point is to discuss whether an artist should do it for ANY corporate entity). I love Blue Man Group and what they do, and i think that Intel commercial is cool to look at, but when i see it i can't help thinking "This is cool but is this what they should be doing?".Any thoughts?Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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