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Pali
GOLD Member since Jan 2003

Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia

Total posts: 84
Posted:confused... buzzsaw weave ... confused

Could I get a lil help with the basic move and maybe some variations I should try?

peace ubblove weavesmiley


Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:buzzsaw weaves found here and then here (see 'notcoleman5').



hope that helps a little smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pali
GOLD Member since Jan 2003

Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia

Total posts: 84
Posted:umm confused ubbangel

Erm, maybe what I'm thinking isn't a buzzsaw weave then. It's a forward buzzsaw, turn 180 while doing I don't know what with your arms, reverse buzzsaw, etc. Nick did them in dervishly yers, I think.


Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Thats just turning a buzzsaw.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:it is, yeah.

but spun really, really well ubblove



quickest way to learn it like that?



go here and get the video titled 'how to'.

learn the move spun by pk at 2:52 (we call it a buzzsaw fountain but call it what ya like smile).



the thing nick does that i think you're talking about (dervishly yers 1:51) contains the bits you'll have learnt from the buzzsaw fountain with a 360 turn put in.



the way nick spins it on that video is really 'flat' (the 'big circle' of the fountain is stretched so it is almost a horizontal line) and his turn is timed so that there are just two beats in buzzsaw in each direction.

the transition from one side to the other is the same as the buzzsaw fountain - nick does the low transition (transition from fwd to rev buzzsaw) with his back to the camera and the high transition (transition from rev to fwd buzzsaw) when he is facing the camera.



you can do these transitions low-high like that or for a real braintwister you can mix them up: high-high, low-low or high-low ('against the spin of the poi).

it all depends on whether the poi spin the top or the bottom part of their circles as you turn, 'with' or 'against' their spin ubbloco



i will say this though - nick makes a lot of very hard things look easy but this comes from the fact that the timing and form of his movement are extremely high cool



this move is hard to time if you want a smooth pirouette like nick does so use shortish poi and prepare to get bruised forearms wink




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"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Heath


member


Total posts: 36
Posted:I read your description of "notcoleman5" is that what's being called a buzzsaw weave? Is there video of this move anywhere? I think I may have it, or atleast I think I may almost have it. If I understand it correctly, it is a sick, sick move and you should be ashamed of yourself.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:twas rob bloocat's description but yes, the 'notcoleman5' is just a silly name for a 5bt buzzsaw weave.



i personally find the 3bt version is harder to get my head around...



as far as i know there is no video posted of these moves.

yet. smile





edit:

the bit in red is not true.

this is in light of discoveries made later in this thread.

turns out the notcoleman5 is more analogous to a 3bt buzzsaw weave...



to get a notcoleman5:

do a 3bt buzzsaw weave as described by arashi here.

now after the buzzsaw beat cross that poi completely to the outside (across the body) as nomal but instead of the other poi coming into a buzzsaw as in the normal 3bt buzzsaw weave, leave it outside where it is to spin an extra beat.

this will force your hands into the wrist twist and the normal 5bt crossover.

on the other side the 3rd beat buzzsaws around the crossed over arm and the whole thing repeats.



it helps to isolate the wrist twist bit so that your wrists don't touch and it also happens to look quite nice after the buzzsawed beat over the crossed over arm.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:its just a tangled buzzsaw that's half isolated..
or a tangled buzzsaw fully isolated.. whichever you prefer... I like the half isoaltion because it gives the illusion that they are still tanlged while you weave through it.. thus kinda getting 2 effects at once...

the best writtein description I can give is for the 5bt version... I don't really play with 3bt stuff (cept when offsettting)

enter the buzzsaw one beat late.. normally from a forward 5bt weave right side, you lead into the buzzsaw with the left poi around the time that one could do a seperation.. well instead, wait one beat, thus letting the left poi make another rotation.. at this poi the right poi should be coming over the left arm (which if it stays on the outside of the body would do the normal 5bt twist up).. instead as the right arm comes over the left bring it towrads the inside, so that i comes up in the buzzsaw position.. now if you stop right there you get a tangled buzzsaw... if instead of stopping your hands you could make them isolate, and instead of tangling the poi will weave through... congradualtions... if you only knew the 5bt weave, you just learned how to do 2 moves..


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Pali
GOLD Member since Jan 2003

Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia

Total posts: 84
Posted:That's exactly what I was looking for, cole thanks biggrin

Sorry about my buzzsaw ignorance, I'm really just starting to play with the move.

peace ubblove weavesmiley



Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:as usual I have very little idea what rev is onabout, i normally start tangle buzzsaws from the outside then move them in......

got an intersting idea from taniwah the other night about notcolemans but ill start a new thread...

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:good luck kitty hug





rev - thank-you for that reply smile



it confused the hell out of me at first but then i realised that the notcoleman5 might be different to a 5bt buzzsaw weave after all...



so i got up and learnt the 3bt buzzsaw weave which has one beat of buzzsaw when the right hand crosses back to the right and another when the left crosses from the right back to the left.

i.e. the leading arm crosses into buzzsaw rather than to the outside on the crossed over side.



notcoleman5 does not have this crossing buzzsaw beat.

it's more like the normal entrance to buzzsaw from a 5bt but not following up on it and carrying on with the weave smile



notcoleman5 has only one beat of buzzsaw.

it is spun around the crossed over arm in the gap you described as "the time that one could do a seperation" and comes back to the outside just before the other arm begins the crossover.

this puts the hand that spins the buzzsawed beat directly into the wrist twist position as it comes back out.

this is why it is easier if you isolate that poi through the next circle (the crossover circle) to the next beat so you don't have to get your wrists to actually touch (which will give you more time through the crossover).



or, like rob described, it's like a normal 5bt but with the the 3rd beat between the arms.



arashi's version has two beats inside, which i think would be the 4th and 5th beats?

i wasn't doing that before smile





edit:

the red bit here is not true either.

it's a beat later than that.

EDITED_BY: coleman (1075615458)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Ugh, every description for this move confuses the hell out of me. Someone PLEASE get a vid of it up hehe.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,

been playing with this a bit more and i think i understand what rev is saying.

for the three beat I thought that as long as the poi followed eachother you should be able to come in and ount of buzsaw cross-handed, but infact ive found you have to isolate a bit ot get it out, so that you can bring the top hand out of the way, otherwise if you pull the hands straight apart it goes airwraped, weather this is buzzsaw or not i aint got right enough to tell.

Had a dream lastnight where i went to see glass and asked him about it, he confirmed thats how it works and there was a lot more to discover from there but was typically cryptic.. ubblol

t wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:ok.. yes to coleman and yes to nix.,.. yes I thoght the notcoleman 5 was different but I couldnt really follow the descriptions well, although I understand the confusion.. my boy itchell was trying to figure out the notcoleman5 for a while (since thats what people called his descrip of the buzzsaw weave)... anyway.. glad I undestand the difference...

nix.. the airwrap that occurs during the tangled buzzsaw (i.e. by keeping your hands still on a buzzsaw weave) is kinda like that airwrap thing we were discussing on poiinthepark.. basically like an airwrap in the buzzsaw position that is turned sideways a bit.. the reason I believe it to be just an airwrap in the buzzsaw is because the tanlge starts when the right poi comes over the left arm.. and is tangled by the act of the right poi coming up into the buzzsaw from over the left arm.. and then it untangles in the same way as it exits back out of the buzzsaw on the other side.. giving it the airwrapness.. I havent tried any of this with 3 bt.. so I guess I need to go back and try that.. maybe that will help me to clear up some things..


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:well obviously what you guys are starting to figure out is that there are -lots- of variations in here. also you guys are counting the inside beats with the outside beats which makes no sense to me. when i said 5 beat inverted weaves, i meant the ones that have five on the outside and MORE on the inside, you guys are still mostly messing with the 3 out and various in. i was trying to do cryptic hints. you can do infinite inverted beats, the entrance is what matters on most of 'em. lots more stuff in here, s'why i was surprised nobody added anything yet to the inverted weaves thread frown
kiss


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:well soooooreey for not being psycic! wink

care to be a little more forthcomming? can you enter crossed? whats a dragons tounge?

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Pali
GOLD Member since Jan 2003

Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia

Total posts: 84
Posted:do arashi and rev make anyone else's brain feel like mashed potatoes?

confused eek spank ubblol


Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yah, but for diffrent reasons,

arashi never actually says what hes on about, and Rev does, but never breaks it down far enough. tongue

still, neither of them are as confusing as taniwah,

nx-"so, your going from backwards btbt invert weave into forwards btbinvert weave in the same place with no transition?"

dragon-"yup."

Nx-"how?"

Dragon-"thats the trick of it"

:shrug:

t wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
can you enter crossed?



yes.

that's a 5bt buzzsaw weave smile
playtime next week!

and yes to your text - mi casa es su casa amigo.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:mehe ubblove

ubbangel


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:you think i'm CRYPTIC? eek

what makes you think i'm not just _trying_ to be vague so you'll think i actually know what i'm talking about?



but... i like how my so called "vagueness" let coleman find something else in the inverted weaves before he even found the simpler two beat of inverted isolated ones... now that we know what the simple 3 and 5 beat are, and we also know how to do just one beat of inversion, cool the difference is coleman is unwittingly playing with the entrance timing on all this stuff so you can either lead or follow with the isolations... in other words, one inverted isolation can either follow or precede the crossed arms. if i follow you right on the notcoleman5 (alas it's impossible to ever be SURE about text) you are illustrating following with the isolation rather than leading. you can do the notcoleman5-type follow isolation infinitely too, with a few entrances, you get a lollipop if you can figure out a way how. tongue

these inverted weave variations would be related directly to the difference between the various kinds of inverted airwraps, ie. outside-inside outside, or inside-outside, or inside-outside-inside. but my brain starts melting just thinking about it all.



only big duymmyhead dorks use the term "buzzsaw" tongue



sounds like a menacing monster from the mighty morphin power rangers rolleyes (course so does "raptors" so i'm a big dork too)

awww, my poor forgotten neglected inverted weaves thread...ubbcrying wipes off the cobwebs


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol


cryptic? wink

been tryin gthis morning(as cole gets up) the three beat inverted weav but with the inversion coming into crossarm buzzsaw isolation position.
ubbloco

and i think it airwraps into it also.

i'll run off an try it a bit today and get back too ya.

ta cole hug

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:the 3 beat inversion weave-cross arm isolation ones are really easy to do the infinite inverted isolations with, try those too, they're soooo fun!.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
...the difference is coleman is unwittingly playing with the entrance timing...





umm



i'd like to think i know what it is i'm playing with most of the time ubbangel

it's only when it gets *really* dark that i get confused about that... ubblol



seriously though, an earlier entrance to the notcoleman5 would result in another of those 'both hands do crossed inverted isolation' jobbies like in the crossover of the normal 5bt buzzsaw weave but rather than it crossing, it would come inside to undo the wrist twist, then go back out to the side they were on.

if you did 2 inveted (crossed and isolated) beats you come out and go into the wrist twist, if you did three then you go into the normal notcoleman5 crossover.



there are shitloads of variations to these but learning the timing for all of them is not something i plan to do - who cares about being symmetrical or ambidextrous anyway? tongue



i do plan to learn the ones i know already in reverse though as that gives me about 80 new entrances to buzzsaws (sorry for bein a big duymmyhead dork but if i'm one then arashi is too as his 'inverted weaves' thread is actually titled 'buzzsaw weaves' wink).



okay, back to not spinning and trying to stay awake. frown


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:Quote:
his 'inverted weaves' thread is actually titled 'buzzsaw weaves'


ubblol ubblol ubblol
OMG that is sooo funny! i was wondering how that named popped up "out of nowhere." duuUUuuh, _i_ did it! cough DORK cough

open foot insert mouth rolleyes okay, now the question is, do i go back and rename the thread? it's just a name... is a rose by any other name as sweet? or will i just confuddlificate all the search engine newbies? oh, the tangled web we weave. i mean tangled weave we... web. errrrrrrr... scratch that.

taps his foot waiting for rev to get on here and type out more unintelligible explanations of stuff he figures out about the timing relationship to inverted airwraps so i won't have to bother tongue ubbangel


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Quote:
do arashi and rev make anyone else's brain feel like mashed potatoes?

confused eek spank ubblol



I take that as a compliment... thx... biggrin

now... let me try and post some of what I've figure out now...

the whol inverted weave thing got me thinking... and thank you so much for this arashii because now I've opened a whole new box of worms to spread to the glo-kids...
ok.. you know how I was describing going ffrom the 5bt weave into the buzzsaw weave, by going right poi over left arm up into the buzzsaw well... I found out that you can actually weave it back and forth in the buzzsaw... eek now.. this must be what arashi menas by inverted weave, but I'll check that thread in a minute... but alas I'm boggled on hwere to begin on my explanation... basically, its the same buzzsaw weave as before only at the end of the buzzsaw weave only one poi exits... and after one beat reurns back inside so that I am in effect weaving back and forth just inside the buzzsaw position... kinda..
hrmm.. see my explanations are confusing because you people ahve been counting total beats.. whereas I've been counting just the weave that I did it from... i.e. the buzzsaw weaves I've been talking about are when you enter from a 5bt weave.. not counting rotations... see.. my basic buzzsaw buzzsaw weave goes from athe seperation through the buzzsaw weave to the speration on the other side.. so basically I guess its a 3bt buizzsaw weave because it does 1 bt each side outside and one beat inside... now.. I 've adapted that.. now I keep it completely within the buzzsaw...damn its so wierd.. and its what my boy was doing but didnt realize it... ok lets see how well I explain this...

ok.. damn... I've deleted like 5 paragraphs... take 6...

a new way to do the tangled buzzsaw... take your normal buzzsaw...you have the right poi on the rightside inside youir arms and the left poi on the leftside inside your arms.. for all intents and purposes... now.. if you let the right poi go over the left arm, the lef t poi will make a rotation outside on the right side) before coming backinto the buzssaw... putting you into a tangled buzzsaw... so maybe that might help you guys... I bring this up because the next step is isolating that.. which results in a buzzsaw weave that only does 1beat (with only one poi) outside the buzzsaw... now... so what beat would that be, Ihave no clue...

now.. from there I went back to something else I've posted about... and thats when you have a tanlged buzzsaw you can isolate it when its in the buzzsaw position, which opens the buzzsaw up.. in other words you can keep it in the buzzsaw and through isolating motions untangle it right there and be in a normal buzzsaw... and then tanlge it back... one easy way to tanlge it back is to let the right poi pass inside the left arm, but slightly to the left of center.. and the left poi passes inside the right arm slightly to the right of center.. this position lets you stop your hands and the strings will go into the perpetual tanlge... so now if you time it right between isolating and unisolating you can weave the poi back and forth completely inside the buzzsaw position... omg.. this is so confusing... dude arashi you need to come down for a weekend... I mean your not that far away from me.. (compared to most everyone else..) I've been posting a LOT on tangles on poiinthepark... I'm thinking of taking those posts and some mroe of this stuff I've been learning and writing a long post on it... because isolations and tangles open up so much stuff.. and work together so weird... I need a new language.. maybe then I could describe this stuff better...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:mmm... wraps in buzzsaw weaves (if thats what theyre being called.)
So... is a 3bt buzzsaw weave where you do a normal 3bt, but instead of the lead hand going to the other side, it pops up in buzzsaw for one beat off each poi (or one circle) and then goes into a 3bt on the other side. Or is that a 5bt buzzsaw weave? But anyway, anytime you're in the buzzsaw zone, as it were, with wouy arms crossed, drop in wraps off biceps and wrists... just before the exit, wrap, reverse buzzsaw crossed arms thing for 1 circle, wrap again... should be able to do thoses half beat click-clack wraps with glowsticks on short strings.

oh, and entering from a 5bt weave, you can get into the buzzsaw practicaly anywhere you can do the wrist twist from a no-elbow 7... works underarm, keeps hitting my face from overarm, but hey... seems like anywhere you can crossover a weave you can fit in a quick crossed wrists buzzsaw thing instead of the normal crossover. fun, but kind of flaily abouty at the moment. means you should be able to do 2bt buzzsaws where each poi only does 1bt outside, 1 inside,1 the other side but i cant yet.

Oh, and onother one, buzzsaw thru wraps... the thru wrapped poi is always between your arms. harder than it sounds. makes butterfly thru wraps more understandable though.


--Ben


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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Well, I just figured the buzzsaw weave out. I found that its the same thing as a tangled buzzsaw/hyperloop buzzsaw just without a chain tangle. Ya gotta get an isolation type move in there to get it right.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Quote:
Well, I just figured the buzzsaw weave out. I found that its the same thing as a tangled buzzsaw/hyperloop buzzsaw just without a chain tangle. Ya gotta get an isolation type move in there to get it right.







and everyone keeps telling me I'm crazy....

thx icon...



spank ubblol



but seriosuly.. the isolation keeps the tanlge from occuring.. which is weird because you watch the strings make the same tanlge motions only seperated a bit.. so that they appear to tanlge with the air... wierd.. another reason isdolations are soo cool


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:*Durbs' head explodes in a fit of isolations, inversions and buzzsaws*

Eh?!

Can anyone show me these at Spitz if I come tonight?
I think I know what the flinkin' blip you're going on about, but probably don't...

It sounds very nice though wink


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:both nx? and i will be there tonight so you should be sorted smile

i can do 3bt and a 4bt (can't do the wrist twist to inverted crossover bit from the right hand side yet).

if you're talking about the actual subject of this thread though (what kittyn first asked about), i can do only a weak impression of the finished article.

i don't think we've met before so if ya wanna come find me, i will be the one failing to juggle four white and black clubs.

see ya later wave


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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