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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:As the purported justifications for the invasion of Iraq prove one by one to be the baseless lies of leaders who had decided on conflict before looking for a reason, we are left with the sole excuse that the value of Democracy is worth the price paid in Iraqi lives.

Im surprised that we consider ourselves in a position to judge the value of that transaction, and I am left wondering if Democracy is really worth such an exorbitant price.

For once, I am going to ignore that bloody handed despot on the other side of the Atlantic, and concentrate on my own beloved leader, Tony Blair. He led his country into war in the face of majority opposition from both his own party and his public. To do this, and to muster what slim support he could, it begins to look as though he or his agents summoned every flimsy scrap of evidence that they could lay their hands on, and twisted it as far as possible to argue their case. One by one his justifications are being shot down:
- there have been no WMDs
- it becomes clear that all the intelligence we had on them was flimsy, plagiarised guess-work, for the most part out of date
- during the war, British troops used cluster bombs on built-up civilian areas, making a mockery of any pretence of altruism toward Iraqi civilians
- no connection has been demonstrated between the Baath party and Al Qaeda
- it is the opinion of experts both from within the UN and independently, that the threat of terrorism within Iraq and toward the Western nations has been significantly increased by the destabilisation of the area, and the violence done to the Iraqi people (Roust, Dec 2003)

In addition, any semblance of an altruistic justification for the invasion is turned into a sick joke by the support given by the coalition of the willing to other regimes engaged in far more hideous atrocities against their own people (eg Uzbekistan see other threads for details), and by the late timing of our supposed outrage Rumsfeld met Saddam in Baghdad after the gassing of the Kurds.

The following is an excerpt from a letter which appeared in the Guardian, 22/01/04

Quote:
War Crimes in Iraq

[] shock and awe bombing raids indiscriminately killed 15 35,000 people and injured untold others. This is an offence under article 8, schedule 6 of the ICC statute, enacted by the UK in 2001, which outlaws: (a)(iii) wilfully causing great suffering; (a)(iv) extensive destruction and appropriation of property; (b)(ii) intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects and; (b)(iv) launching an attack in the knowledge that it will cause incidental loss of life.
Tony Blair admitted in parliament (Hansard, March 23 2002): If there is conflict there will be civilian casualties; proving he knew the attack would kill or injure civilians.
[discussion of the sanctions] Madeleine Albright proved genocidal intent when, told that 460,000 children had died as a result of the sanctions, she said: It is a price worth paying.
[]

Michael Mansfield QC
Dr James Thring

Legal Action Against War




It is clear to me that the invasion of Iraq was both illegal and immoral. Whether, in the long term, the Iraqi people will be better off, I dont know, but I refuse to believe that we had reached the point where no other solution but war was possible. Prior to the invasion, we saw the greatest peaceful demonstration that Britain has ever known, on the streets of London. Tony Blair engaged in this slaughter against the wishes of the people he supposedly represents, yet is still in power.

And what can we do about it? We are strangely powerless. We had no legal recourse whatsoever to stop him going to war. We could have armed ourselves, taken to the streets but what difference is there between that and life under a dictatorship? One presumes that Tony Blair wouldnt start gassing the home counties but he could still have us all arrested, and held indefinitely without trial under suspicion of being terrorists. Many people were arrested for demonstrating peacefully what would have happened if they had been trying just that little bit harder?

And after the bombing is over? Assuming that the Hutton inquiry doesnt finish him off, Tony Blair looks set to stay in power up to the next election. And that is where my question lies. I swore that if Britain went to war, I would never vote Labour again. Yet now the Tory party seems strangely re-invigorated under Howard, and even more bloodthirsty and right wing than Labour. I am frightened that voting with my conscience (either Lib Dem or Green Party), along with similar votes cast by what used to be the Labour left, coupled with a swing from the centre toward the Tory party, will result in a Conservative government for the next four years privatisation of universities, the reclassification of cannabis, and the hideous, inevitable backlash against those scapegoats of the new millennium, the asylum seekers.

So there we have it. In our oh-so-wonderful democracy, we have no legal way to stop our government from perpetrating atrocities in our name, and no legal recourse to condemn them in the aftermath. If we show our displeasure by voting against the party we hold to be responsible, we may well end up with something worse. We are powerless.

Is democracy really worth anything at all?




*Note I am not saying that the removal of Saddam will not have benefits for the Iraqi people, or that there is no difference between our failed democracy and his open dictatorship. However, I think that his removal could have been accomplished through peaceful means, and I think that the mechanised slaughter that the coalition of the willing has conducted on the Iraqi people, coupled with the genocidal effects of the sanctions which preceded the invasion, can never be justified.




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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Quote:
.....we are left with the sole excuse that the value of Democracy is worth the price paid in Iraqi lives.



Ummm, Democracy as an excuse??? No excuses; the US invaded Iraq for many reasons (oil, kick arab butt etc) but I don't think democracy was one of them. I don't believe that lie about liberating Iraq either. America has never entered into any War with out self-serving motives. IMHO its just a case of the US bullying another third world country for profit.

And Hey, when is America gunna destroy their WMD????



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:I completely agree with you - I think the claim that the US and Britain invaded Iraq with the good of the Iraqi citizens at heart is one of the biggest loads of Bullsh*t I've ever heard. However, the various justifications for the invasion are being debated in other threads - my rant above was more about the degree to which our supposedly representative democracy has been revealed as a total facade.

Let's not turn this thread into another "Isn't the US evil" thread... we've got enough of them already, and they don't go anywhere.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Post deleted by Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
EDITED_BY: Raymund Phule (Fireproof) (1074880412)


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Astar


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Posted:ray it could be argued that the US let pearl harbour happened, the canadians/british did warn you of informationg garnered via radio interception and decodeing that an attack was iminent, and the americans actually took all the modern ships out of the fleet which could move under their own power conviniently at the same time, and all that was lost was under construction ships and old ww1 ships. Motive? I don't think america could have gotten a strong enough war effort from people to go to war without an attack on them. Do I believe it? No, it's mostly circumstancial, I believe the americans whent hey say the message got mixed up and not received in time, it's not like communications was entirely reliable back then. It doesn't quite seem right to me that roosevelt would let this happen, because it doesn't mesh with my picture of what kind of person he was from everything I studied. Which suggests it was a conspiracy going on underneath him, and no evidence of this conspiracy underneath him.

But, it is certainly interesting and I like studying everything about this angle that I can.

My only issue with the bombing of japan is the second bomb should have atleast waited maybe a day longer. I honestly don't know if the japenese could have surrended and got the message to the americans in time to prevent the second bombing, they had a pretty [censored] up infastructure from already having the piss bombed out of them via the first nuclear bomb and conventional bombing beforehand. There was so much chaos following the first nuclear bomb, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that the message just didn't get to the decision makers, and their message didn't get to the americans fast enough.

I don't see this as hardcore guilt on the americans side, I realize they wanted to give the impression that they could drop them rapidly and numerously and one bomb may not have done it, hell if my city got blown up by one bomb like that, and I was without knowledge of nuclear weapons or any of the theory. I don't think I would believe the explosion was man made. Who would think someone could create something like that?



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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Astar, you have an interesting theory, but I wouldn't buy into it if it were free. The reaction of President Roosevelt was too much of a shock for it to be any plan. You may look at whatever it is that you wish, but the majority of the US Pacific fleet was wiped out along with thousands of people. Mistakes were made that might, or might not, have effected the outcome of that day. No this was no clever ploy to bring the US into war, it was an attack on the US that was a mistake on the Japanese part. They sufferd terribly afterwards, both the Japanese and the Americans probably wish that it never happend.




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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:Message deleted
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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I wish I had been more thurough in what I deleted. What I deleted was my reply to Stone, when in fact I did almost the exact same thing that I got angry at Stone for. Turning this into a US biased thread. I should have just deleted the whole thing and rewritten it without the anger towards Stone. I went on the defensive when I had no reason to be. I will delete my whole post since it really has no relivence to this topic, and hope that you will do the same.

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:Done, and a good idea as well. I thought my reply was lame anyway - I'm glad it's gone! tongue

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Ray, wot I said is fair comment, but I'm sorry if it upset u smile I just don't have any faith in the leaders of the US, UK or Aus because they are blantely lying to the public. Where is the smoking gun? I am dissapointed that Bush, as a world leader, could think that bombing the [censored] out of Iraq would somehow fix things, when it only makes them worse.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


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Posted:Stone the reason I got upset was because of where you said what you said. You have already be corrected by Joe and it is not my place to correct you further.

I agree that this "smoking gun" thing is rediculous. And I have pretty much the same questions as you. I do know, that right now the situation in Iraq is pretty bad for Iraqis, but I have full confidence that there is only one place to go from here and that is up. Things will get better, will that justify the war? Probably not in the eyes of the majority of the world but hey as long as they get better and not worse.


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Astar


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Posted:Wait you mean it can't just be a continous onslaught of ambushes, vehicle bombings, suicide attacks? much of it funded supplied and manned from outside the boarders For 4 or 5 years?



We have never seen a similar military action where that has happened... no not in the 60's..


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


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Posted:Ohh the sarcasm... wow Astar, it would almost seem that you want me to get angry!

Here is the e difference between Vietnam and Iraq (in no particular order)
1) Manpower

2) Technology

3) Skill of the enemy

4)Terrain

5)Morale change

6) Number of enemy

7)Enemies Intel.

8)Enemies communication ability

Come on, I could go on for a long time. Please Astar come up with something more solid!


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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:I agree with you Ray, the differences are very large. However, as in Vietnam, it comes down to one essential point - the degree to which the Iraqi population is won over by their new regime. Look at Palestine - it doesn't take much technology or intel for one person with nothing left to lose to do a lot of damage.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:You are so right. That is what the real war is going to be on. Getting a working Gov, that makes the need for Allied troops there minimal to non-existant. Right now I think that we shouuld be focusing on what would help improve the situation as we can do nothing to change the past. Impeache Bush later fix the problem now.

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:So long as we impeach the fu<ker before he does TOO much more damage, agreed.

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Stone
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Posted:Quote:
my rant above was more about the degree to which our supposedly representative democracy has been revealed as a total facade



Seems I missed the point. Yes I totally agree. Our PM (honest John Howard) has just attacked the Australian public school system for not agreeing with his 1950's view of world politics.

He lied about WMD and the childern overboard affair to get re-elected. I have NO faith in our leaders (US, UK, AUS etc.). Thay have all proven to be liers. Bush wasen't even fairly elected and I think we should have backed the UN, which is not broken as has perviously been suggested.

Ray, I not intentionally bashing the US; it's just that the US is leading this assult of freedom, truth and democracy. Now, when is the US et al gunna turn their swords into ploughshares and spears into pruning hooks???
Nations shall not lift up sword against nation. neither shall they study war any more. Isaiah 2:4








If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:This is mainly in reply to Joes first post.

This quote is from a post i made in this forum about a year ago. Some wording slightly changed.
Quote:
[the previous post] commented that despite living in a 'democracy' we don't always do what the majority of people want.
The US, UK and Australia all have systems of government based on democratic election. That doesn't mean we live in a democracy where the majority decides what is best course of action in every case. Would you want to live in a system where that was true? Lynch mobs are true democracy in action.



When the western world starts talking about bringing democracy somewhere, i think we'd often be more correct to give call it by the broader term: self-determination; the right of a people to determine their own political and cultural future.

It's the distinction between saying
"You have to live OUR way now."
and
"You have to live YOUR way now."

i reckon self-determination is worth a pretty high price.

good site smile


With regards to Tony Blair twisting the truth to suit his own PR ends.

Well what a surprise that was. He's never done that before rolleyes

But as you rightly point out, the unfortunate alternative to him is ex bloody handed despot Michael Howard, author of the draconian and puritanical Criminal Justice & Public Order Act, 1994.

in other words, i don't mind if you invade countries, but if you make parties illegal then you'll piss me off wink


Joe 6-steps say:
Quote:
In our oh-so-wonderful democracy, we have no legal way to stop our government from perpetrating atrocities in our name, and no legal recourse to condemn them in the aftermath.



i can't think of any political systems where heads of state are really accountable for their actions through internal processes. It'd always just be a case of "who watches the watchmen watching the watchmen" anyhoo.

Joe 6-Steps also say:
Quote:
It is clear to me that the invasion of Iraq was both illegal and immoral.



The question of immorality is an entirely subjective one. It depends on the values you set for human life, truth, democracy, etc. Whenever you say anything is 'right' or 'wrong', you are talking about yourself, not the entity you are judging.

As to whether it was illegal. Well, you're talking about international law and, in the main, international law is toothless unless
a) you come from a small militarily inferior nation, or you are totally reliant on imported resources without any valuable exports.
AND
b) your human rights abuses are really really bad.

Neither of these apply to US or UK.

OK, Guantanamo Bay isn't good, i agree. But compare it to human rights abuses in places such as China, Uzbekistan, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, Democratic Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe, Burundi, Sri Lanka etc.

As you have pointed out, some of these nations go about the abuse and torture of thousands of innocents, without censure. While the US is being vilified for locking up a few religious fanatics who fired upon their forces.

Ah, i suppose it's good that we judge our own countries by such a higher standard.

ok thats it i'm going to do some work now... ubbangel


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

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Posted:Simon, imgoing to be completly honest with you now...



iadmire you greatly.



i love the way we can be zany, wacky, crackpot and coocky all of the time i see you, and then you come out with a post like this, you really are one blindingly clever person underneath.



Dont ever forget that.



Nice one! beerchug

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

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Posted:Simian, good post, but I'm going to have to disagree with almost all of it.

Quote:
[the previous post] commented that despite living in a 'democracy' we don't always do what the majority of people want.
The US, UK and Australia all have systems of government based on democratic election. That doesn't mean we live in a democracy where the majority decides what is best course of action in every case. Would you want to live in a system where that was true? Lynch mobs are true democracy in action.



Definately fair enough - an ideal democracy would be one where you can avoid as much of the decision making process and responsibility as you like (I certainly don't want to be called up whenever the council needs to decide what bore sewage pipes to install) but also one where you can become involved in the major issues when you care enough. Hang on, that's not actually a democracy is it...

Anyway, the people we have elected are supposed to 'represent' us. I definately don't think that this always means pandering to the lowest common denominator, but in a situation where so many of the citizens of the country object to a possible course of action, and the course of action IS illegal (as you say, we're pretty much above the law... doesn't it make you feel oh so good about yourself? And just 'cos we can flout it doesn't change the fact it IS illegal... surely that's obvious?), and it means undermining the UN... and so on and on... then the government should listen to their people. Sorry, that was a bit of a long sentence.

As we both said, it looks like the alternative to Blair is Howard, who is just worse, so any semblance of 'self-determination' we claim to possess is nothing more than that... a semblance. I agree that it's a good thing, and definately Saddam being out of power is a good thing... but 35,000 civilians killed? And as far as telling them that they have to live their way now, are we not coming up with a ludicrous 'caucasus' plan to prevent the resurgence of Islamic government in Iraq, and selling off their oil/development rights to allied companies?

That our heads of state aren't accountable for their actions through internal process is definately a failing of government. That it is shared by most governments doesn't make it better. Both Switzerland and Holland have internal accountability processes, though I don't know what or much more than that - will do some more looking into it.

Morals are subjective eh? That's a whole huge debate in itself, though as I get old and cynical I increasingly agree with you. So whose morals do we use? Please, please don't let's use the UK community at large (recent headline - four out of ten white people don't want a black neighbour). I agree that when I say something is immoral I use my own standards of morality, but though these are certainly open to debate, I defend my right to apply them to the institutions which supposedly represent me.

In addition, I think that there are certain moral standards which almost everyone shares, for example that killing people is wrong. Do you really believe that we invaded Iraq for the good of the Iraqi people? See my first post for details of why this just isn't true. Do you believe that we invaded because we thought that we were under threat? Again, see above. What we're left with is a collection of pretexts that can only be described as immoral.

Quote:
OK, Guantanamo Bay isn't good, i agree. But compare it to human rights abuses in places such as China, Uzbekistan, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, Democratic Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe, Burundi, Sri Lanka etc.

As you have pointed out, some of these nations go about the abuse and torture of thousands of innocents, without censure. While the US is being vilified for locking up a few religious fanatics who fired upon their forces.



I've discussed this a little with Raymond elsewhere. No-one is saying that the US and the UK are on a par with Uzbekistan, for example, though we're contributing $160 million to their security services. Certainly if any of those nations invaded another as we have done there would be outrage.

I think that I tend to argue about the US because people on here seem to defend it, and about the UK because I live here and feel responsible. I'm sure that if someone posted something saying that Uzbekistan was all sweetness and light we'd end up having a huge argument about that.

As to the Us being vilified for "locking up a few religious fanatics who fired upon their forces" - you must know it's about more than that. Most of the detainees haven't even been charged, some have been let go after two years in prison without ever having been charged.

And the argument that we shouldn't get so het up about it because worse happens elsewhere is a moral disaster area, in my opinion. Even if morals are subjective...

Quote:
With regards to Tony Blair twisting the truth to suit his own PR ends.

Well what a surprise that was. He's never done that before



Well, in this case he was twisting the truth to convince us to invade another country. Unless you're saying that the invasion was PR... in which case I could agree with you, to a degree...

Sorry my answer's been so patchy and all over the place. Next time will do better...


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Wow some darn good posts by all... I am quite impressed... okay time to start at the top and work my way down... hehe I am glad I am stuck at work here for another hour or so hehe (today F-in sucked but that is another thing)

Actually I am going to go in any order that I wish, expect alot of skipping around tongue hehe

Joe, Quote:
Anyway, the people we have elected are supposed to 'represent' us. I definately don't think that this always means pandering to the lowest common denominator, but in a situation where so many of the citizens of the country object to a possible course of action, and the course of action IS illegal (as you say, we're pretty much above the law... doesn't it make you feel oh so good about yourself? And just 'cos we can flout it doesn't change the fact it IS illegal... surely that's obvious?), and it means undermining the UN... and so on and on... then the government should listen to their people. Sorry, that was a bit of a long sentence.




A republic is where everyone votes about the smelly sewer pipes a democracy is when you vote for some to vote for you.

The war in Iraq was and is leagle, the reasons that we went to war may or may not be a complete lie but the war is leagle. Why? Iraq violated the peace treaty between the US and Iraq by shooting at our aircraft patroling the No-fly-zones and trying to export oil illeagly and a few other ways. So the war in Iraq is leagle but actually very late. Personally I think that Clinton was to busy getting BJs to care what happend over there hehe ubbangel

The majority of the US was not opposed to the war in Iraq when it first started even now the majority of the US is in favor though the margin of seperation is a lot closer. Now the UK is a complete other story.


Quote:
As we both said, it looks like the alternative to Blair is Howard, who is just worse, so any semblance of 'self-determination' we claim to possess is nothing more than that... a semblance. I agree that it's a good thing, and definately Saddam being out of power is a good thing... but 35,000 civilians killed? And as far as telling them that they have to live their way now, are we not coming up with a ludicrous 'caucasus' plan to prevent the resurgence of Islamic government in Iraq, and selling off their oil/development rights to allied companies?



I don't know about your country but here, a nationalised US citizen can run for any office they want. They do have to meet certain criteria but that is just formalities really. Perhaps you should inquire how you can run for office and change your government for the better.

Quote:
As to the Us being vilified for "locking up a few religious fanatics who fired upon their forces" - you must know it's about more than that. Most of the detainees haven't even been charged, some have been let go after two years in prison without ever having been charged.



Soo... we should go find them, lock them up all over again just to charge them? Hell atleast they got out eh?


Stone... Quote:
Ray, I not intentionally bashing the US; it's just that the US is leading this assult of freedom, truth and democracy. Now, when is the US et al gunna turn their swords into ploughshares and spears into pruning hooks???



On Tuesday the 30th of February? hehe I don't know when we will in total, but some are doing it even as we speek. Iraq is being rebuilt with the Help of some US service members. It might be slow but progress is progress.

Quote:
So long as we impeach the fu<ker before he does TOO much more damage, agreed

Hehe Joe, have I tought you nothing?? Use (... it makes a much better C than < hehe atleast to me tongue


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:Quote:
Joe: Anyway, the people we have elected are supposed to 'represent' us


Ethically you mean? They're certainly not under any compunction to act in accordance with our wishes, though they tend to, so we vote for them next time. That's what causes the misconception that they're meant to do what we want.

i repeat my assertion that them not having to follow our wishes is a good thing in a country where the Sun and the Mirror are the most popular papers, and ITV is most popular channel.
(hmm, having said that - is that stuff still true?)

Quote:
Ray: A republic is where everyone votes about the smelly sewer pipes a democracy is when you vote for some to vote for you.


i'm pretty sure it's other way round, dude.

Both are commonly used to mean government by the people or their elected representatives.
Republic specifically means a country ruled by a nominated or elected president.
Democracy specifically means a political or social unit governed ultimately by all its members.

Who me? Using a dictionary? you must be mistaken ubbangel wink

Quote:
Joe: as you say, we're [The UK is] pretty much above the law... doesn't it make you feel oh so good about yourself? And just 'cos we can flout it doesn't change the fact it IS illegal... surely that's obvious?


In my post my point that i failed to actually make rolleyes was that internationally, illegal doesn't really mean much to anyone. That goes for small poor countries too, though not to quite the same extent as the big uns. There's no international policing force as such, it's a self-policing community. Which means that generally rules are only enforced when it is in the enforcing nations economic interest to do so. Which ain't often. There's not much money in volunteer police work, apart from bribes and undeclared interests.

You say that even if not enforced, its still 'the law' though.

Some things are technically illegal, but you get away with them unless the nice policeman doesn't like your face.
(driving geese across London Bridge, smoking cannabis etc).
These things are not usually seen as morally wrong.

Some things are proper illegal and even a nice policeman who does like your face will still arrest you.
(assault, selling crack etc).
These things are generally seen as being morally incorrect.

The way we tell the difference between right and wrong is generally how strictly the rule is enforced. If a rule is not enforced, it has no meaning.

And since when have you had such a problem with illegality anyway?
Do you proscribe all activity contrary to the law?
Which law are you talking about? UK law, US law, Islamic law, Iraqi law or international law?
(ok, obviously you mean international law. It was a rhetorical question wink )

Uhm. i'll stop there before a politics student comes along and whoops my ass for talking crap ubbangel

On the subject of UK Politics:
Quote:
Joe: That our heads of state aren't accountable for their actions through internal process is definately a failing of government. That it is shared by most governments doesn't make it better. Both Switzerland and Holland have internal accountability processes, though I don't know what or much more than that - will do some more looking into it.


i was thinking about political accountability while waiting for a nightbus last night. That and ways to reform the so plainly flawed party systems that democracy usually creates. All that tuition fees palaver we just had made me feel ill, and not in a hiphop sense. We go to all the trouble of electing our representatives, but then every issue is divided into the reds vs the blues, with party members being manipulated into voting against their judgement in order to beat 'the other team' mad

Oh, Ray: The party system also means that an independent candidate has a very low chance of being elected, and zero chance of becoming Prime Minister or any Cabinet position. That mean that neither Joe or myself are ever likely to be in a position of political power ubbcrying

So i decided that all MPs should be subject to constant scrutiny at work and in their home life. What would happen if every conversation involving the running of the country was in the public domain? Open government is currently a bit of a joke. Once politicians are forcibly implanted with bugs and tracking devices, everything might start being a little more honest. smile

But there may be a little trouble getting that one through parliment...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Hell I don't know about the rest of you but if I ever saw someone driving geese across the London bridge I would ticket them in a heart beat. Now if they were all wearing shoes that would be a different story tongue

In my home state of New Mexico, it is perfectly legal to speed if you do not get caught. This makes radar/laser detectors and radar/laser jammers legal. So yes there are laws that are made to be broken.


Simian, why is the chance of you being elected so low? Frankly anyone can get support if they try hard enough. In my opinion if you truly want something, you will go out and get it.

Well if you stick a bug up a PM's arse then you start violating human rights... right?


Ohh something interesting I learned yesterday... in the US a parolee does not have 4th Amendment rights. (the basic human rights granted by the US constitution). In order to get on parole they must sign a paper waving their rights..... kinda interesting ehh?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:Quote:
Simian, why is the chance of you being elected so low? Frankly anyone can get support if they try hard enough. In my opinion if you truly want something, you will go out and get it.



Nah, to get a chance of being elected you really need to be a member of a popular party, mainly the Conservative party or the Labour party (pretty similar to Republicans and Democrats as i understand it, which is not very much...)

People vote for parties, not for people. We don't vote for our PM, we vote for the people who vote for who gets to be PM.



Quote:
Well if you stick a bug up a PM's arse then you start violating human rights... right?



at first i thought "sticking a bug up a PM's arse" was some kind of American slang expression ubblol



if you say to politician: "you only keep your well paid cushy job, power and sense of importance if you have this device shoved up your ass."

Politician will say to you: "i'll buy my own vaseline." biggrin

EDITED_BY: simian (1075399326)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I might be insaine but your just sick and twisted! tongue Honest, but sick and twisted... feel free to take PM out and change it to whatever politician you want tongue haha

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:Quote:
In my home state of New Mexico, it is perfectly legal to speed if you do not get caught. This makes radar/laser detectors and radar/laser jammers legal. So yes there are laws that are made to be broken.



I'd say that's more a case of a law that's made to be updated, rather than to be broken.

Quote:

in the US a parolee does not have 4th Amendment rights. (the basic human rights granted by the US constitution). In order to get on parole they must sign a paper waving their rights..... kinda interesting ehh?



I didn't know that, it is quite interesting. I'd also say it's quite nuts, but I think that about a whole lot of things

Quote:
That mean that neither Joe or myself are ever likely to be in a position of political power ubbcrying



That's another thing I think is nuts. I think the whole voting for a party system is completely stupid, look where it's gotten us recently.
I think it'd be much better if people voted for an individual and a council was made up of everyone who won the election in their area.
I especially think that the idea of a prime minister or president is not a fantastic one.
Since absolute power apparently corrupts absolutely, I think it's a much better idea If there's no single person with absolute power, things are much safer.

Yet another thing I think is nuts is the way that people can be allocated to different constituancies whenever the party feels like it, to make sure their most valued people get win a seat.
I say if they've annoyed the people in their own constituancy enough to be forced to move in order to win a seat, they probably don't deserve the seat.

Ok, I'm going to stop ranting now smile

Just to finish, I've decided that I'm going into politics. I plan to argue with as many people as possible and start insulting them as childishly as i can get away with. At least that way, I should have the backing of everyone who reads the Sun tongue


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well... usually when someone is on parole they have been let out early... it is kinda a half-way stage. Basically the police are granted permission to search their house at any point in time, random drug testing and other such things.

I think it is a good system... hell the US tax payers pay out aprox. $47,000 a year per inmate. And a guestamated 1 million inmates in the US... that comes to about $47 billion US every year!

So when they are on parole they are making money and paying taxes. While they do have limited rights, it will end and they will once again enjoy a life with all the rights as the next person.

Quote:
Just to finish, I've decided that I'm going into politics. I plan to argue with as many people as possible and start insulting them as childishly as i can get away with. At least that way, I should have the backing of everyone who reads the Sun



Dang everyone wants to be like me! tongue J/K


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

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Posted:Actually, there are more than 2 million prisoners in American jails......

the land of the free eek eek



that is about 0.7 percent of the population, the highest in the world.



This does have interesting implications for the facade of democracy that still lingers in America.



For example, more than 13% of African Americans are not allowed to vote. Many more that are allowed to vote are led to believe that they do not have the right to vote.



To make it clear, it is incorrect to say that "it will end and they will once again enjoy a life with all the rights as the next person." Some people do get their rights back, but many others lose the right to vote for the rest of their lives.



Maybe if Bush keeps making war and spreading 'democracy' we can all live in such an ideal society. rolleyes







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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:interesting stuff

Quote:
more than 13% of African Americans are not allowed to vote


eek 13%! no way... on what grounds?
Surely not criminal if it's 13%, that's crazy.

In what cases are franchise permanently withdrawn? How serious does a crime need to be?

i don't think it's wrong to stop someone having a say in how a society is run if they wilfully damage that society.

i do think that women and the insane should still have their vote though.

or was that an unnecessary distinction? wink ubblol spank


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Yes the voting system in the US has its flaws.... Some major ones but it has them.

13% of African Americans I think is high, but could it be possible that those 13% are felons? I don't know, I am just thowing that out as a possibility.


Sometimes screenings for felons get jacked up, and can get jacked up pretty badly. This is not only unfair, but a sould human error. Are they being racial or predjudice? I don't know and none of us can proove anything.

To withdraw voting rights, one must be a convicted felon.

Women do have the right to vote, but I don't know about the insane. I don't know if I want an insane person voting, then again what part of insane do you mean? Do skitsos get two votes? tongue

I feel that I am a bit insane, I play an online game for hours at end working skills over and over and over again expecting a differnt result each time. Hahaha Should I not be alowed to vote?



Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

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Posted:Of course the 13% means felons, maybe I wasn't very clear about that though

some stats here: http://www.prisonpolicy.org/articles/prisonindex_jimcrow.pdf
br>
In 8 states all ex-offenders lose the right to vote for the rest of their lives.

It is an interesting concern. Should people that in some way disagree with the laws of the state (marijuana possession, civil disobedience, etc) lose the right to vote? I think not. It's a slippery slope. I personally think that to be a true democracy (which of course it is not) everybody should be allowed, and encouraged to vote. What's the harm in allowing even a mass murderer to vote?? I could possibly agree with not allowing prisoners to vote though, but everybody that is a part of society (ie not in jail) should be able to vote


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