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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...

Total posts: 310
Posted:As the purported justifications for the invasion of Iraq prove one by one to be the baseless lies of leaders who had decided on conflict before looking for a reason, we are left with the sole excuse that the value of Democracy is worth the price paid in Iraqi lives.

Im surprised that we consider ourselves in a position to judge the value of that transaction, and I am left wondering if Democracy is really worth such an exorbitant price.

For once, I am going to ignore that bloody handed despot on the other side of the Atlantic, and concentrate on my own beloved leader, Tony Blair. He led his country into war in the face of majority opposition from both his own party and his public. To do this, and to muster what slim support he could, it begins to look as though he or his agents summoned every flimsy scrap of evidence that they could lay their hands on, and twisted it as far as possible to argue their case. One by one his justifications are being shot down:
- there have been no WMDs
- it becomes clear that all the intelligence we had on them was flimsy, plagiarised guess-work, for the most part out of date
- during the war, British troops used cluster bombs on built-up civilian areas, making a mockery of any pretence of altruism toward Iraqi civilians
- no connection has been demonstrated between the Baath party and Al Qaeda
- it is the opinion of experts both from within the UN and independently, that the threat of terrorism within Iraq and toward the Western nations has been significantly increased by the destabilisation of the area, and the violence done to the Iraqi people (Roust, Dec 2003)

In addition, any semblance of an altruistic justification for the invasion is turned into a sick joke by the support given by the coalition of the willing to other regimes engaged in far more hideous atrocities against their own people (eg Uzbekistan see other threads for details), and by the late timing of our supposed outrage Rumsfeld met Saddam in Baghdad after the gassing of the Kurds.

The following is an excerpt from a letter which appeared in the Guardian, 22/01/04

Quote:
War Crimes in Iraq

[] shock and awe bombing raids indiscriminately killed 15 35,000 people and injured untold others. This is an offence under article 8, schedule 6 of the ICC statute, enacted by the UK in 2001, which outlaws: (a)(iii) wilfully causing great suffering; (a)(iv) extensive destruction and appropriation of property; (b)(ii) intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects and; (b)(iv) launching an attack in the knowledge that it will cause incidental loss of life.
Tony Blair admitted in parliament (Hansard, March 23 2002): If there is conflict there will be civilian casualties; proving he knew the attack would kill or injure civilians.
[discussion of the sanctions] Madeleine Albright proved genocidal intent when, told that 460,000 children had died as a result of the sanctions, she said: It is a price worth paying.
[]

Michael Mansfield QC
Dr James Thring

Legal Action Against War




It is clear to me that the invasion of Iraq was both illegal and immoral. Whether, in the long term, the Iraqi people will be better off, I dont know, but I refuse to believe that we had reached the point where no other solution but war was possible. Prior to the invasion, we saw the greatest peaceful demonstration that Britain has ever known, on the streets of London. Tony Blair engaged in this slaughter against the wishes of the people he supposedly represents, yet is still in power.

And what can we do about it? We are strangely powerless. We had no legal recourse whatsoever to stop him going to war. We could have armed ourselves, taken to the streets but what difference is there between that and life under a dictatorship? One presumes that Tony Blair wouldnt start gassing the home counties but he could still have us all arrested, and held indefinitely without trial under suspicion of being terrorists. Many people were arrested for demonstrating peacefully what would have happened if they had been trying just that little bit harder?

And after the bombing is over? Assuming that the Hutton inquiry doesnt finish him off, Tony Blair looks set to stay in power up to the next election. And that is where my question lies. I swore that if Britain went to war, I would never vote Labour again. Yet now the Tory party seems strangely re-invigorated under Howard, and even more bloodthirsty and right wing than Labour. I am frightened that voting with my conscience (either Lib Dem or Green Party), along with similar votes cast by what used to be the Labour left, coupled with a swing from the centre toward the Tory party, will result in a Conservative government for the next four years privatisation of universities, the reclassification of cannabis, and the hideous, inevitable backlash against those scapegoats of the new millennium, the asylum seekers.

So there we have it. In our oh-so-wonderful democracy, we have no legal way to stop our government from perpetrating atrocities in our name, and no legal recourse to condemn them in the aftermath. If we show our displeasure by voting against the party we hold to be responsible, we may well end up with something worse. We are powerless.

Is democracy really worth anything at all?




*Note I am not saying that the removal of Saddam will not have benefits for the Iraqi people, or that there is no difference between our failed democracy and his open dictatorship. However, I think that his removal could have been accomplished through peaceful means, and I think that the mechanised slaughter that the coalition of the willing has conducted on the Iraqi people, coupled with the genocidal effects of the sanctions which preceded the invasion, can never be justified.




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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Quote:
Is democracy really worth anything at all?


They're not selling democracy...

...and democracy isn't worth anything, it can still be a nightmare if you're not in the majority group, morally and socially.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:WHR, you just murdered somebody, got pissed off and ran the F%^**^ over. 20 years later your out of jail. If you were that unstable that you would loose controle and murder someone and after 20 years of harsh confinement with only a sega instead of Playstation 2 to keep you company, are you really going to be in the right state of mind to choose who should lead the country?

I don't think anyone who murders in cold blood is mentaly stable to vote. That is my opinion but perhaps that is why they are not allowed to vote.


Frsoty, ever hear of afermitive action? A case of the minorities controling the democracy.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
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Total posts: 86
Posted:so Ray, if I understand your opinion correctly you do not believe in rehabilitation.

Once a murderer always a murderer???

Then why is that person back on the streets after 20 years?

If they can be trusted to be a part of society again then they should be trusted to vote.




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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:One word: Example

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:*is watching this thread very closely*

HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:*also watching thread*

but will also comment....

I do not agree with stopping felons from voting on the grounds of, as Ray says: "are you really going to be in the right state of mind to choose who should lead the country?"

A couple of big reasons:
One - as has been mentioned. Once you've 'served your debt to society' you are a free person, and should be allowed all the rights of a free person.

Two: If this is how you're thinking then perhaps we should advocate a test before people are allowed to vote so that they can prove they are politically aware before voting? How about background checks to make sure they're morally upstanding too. And psych screening can weed out the nutcases.

A huge number of people only vote a particular way because historically they always have. Or due to biased influence from family, friends, TV commercials or the media. It seems to me that many voters don't really know why they vote, or get influenced by others.

How many people actually know how poticis works, look at all the angles, then decides who to vote for? Very, very few. But maybe only this small percentage should actually be allowed the vote as they're the only 'worthy' ones?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:*feels the gimlet eyes of the mods boring into his soul* wink



Quote:
But maybe only this small percentage should actually be allowed the vote as they're the only 'worthy' ones?





My word mr Dm, how seductively you advocate feudalism ubblol



i stand by democracy as the least bad system.



^ i still reckon what i said up there ^

Someone who wilfully damages society should not further participate in deciding how it is run.



but whether low level crimes qualify for that is another matter.



is it actually true that in the US a single conviction for, say, possession of narcotics, automatically means you lose your vote forever? umm



if so then i'm shocked.



edit - oh right, in 8 states. i'm guessing that they're toward the southern end. am i right?

EDITED_BY: simian (1076083785)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Dom, you're more than right, but felons are of differnt statute than a purse snatcher who got caught.

I don't know why they don't alow them to vote, I just gave an example of a minor possibility. But the reason I brought up the idea of that possibility goes back to my opinoin of rights. If you murdered somebody, why should we care about your rights? You didn't care about the person's rights who you just killed now did you?

It may not be good logic, but atleast to me... it is there. smile


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
If you murdered somebody, why should we care about your rights? You didn't care about the person's rights who you just killed now did you?



That would make us just as bad as him, and then nobody would have any rights, and that would be a bad thing.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Quote:
Someone who wilfully damages society should not further participate in deciding how it is run.

but whether low level crimes qualify for that is another matter.

is it actually true that in the US a single conviction for, say, possession of narcotics, automatically means you lose your vote forever? umm

if so then i'm shocked.

edit - oh right, in 8 states. i'm guessing that they're toward the southern end. am i right?


How can a society be democratic if it excludes those that disagree with it?

That's not democracy.

Neither is how the UK is running at the moment with whips turning up and getting our MPs who are meant to be representing the public to toe the line instead, just incase anyone thought this was all anti-US.

Democracy is substantially an illusion - or it runs dangerously close to majority-rule.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Quote:
Neither is how the UK is running at the moment with whips turning up and getting our MPs who are meant to be representing the public to toe the line instead, just incase anyone thought this was all anti-US.




Ohhh another cheep and lame stab from the frostmyster ubbloco peace


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ray. Explain why that sentance is a cheap stab please.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well Dom in order to 100% understand why it was a jab you would have to know Frosty. Let's put it this way, Frosty is everything that I am trying to give up and then some, just in a prettier package.

It is the last part of the sentence; it was a direct message to me basically saying nyah nyah shadup and so on and so forth. A stab, he missed, but still a stab.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:"you would have to know Frosty" - Check your PMs

His comment was actually a valid reference to our current situation in the UK. He was pointing out that the criticism expressed by those living in the UK is fuelled by our situation. Recently Blair had to pull out all the stops and basically convice and convince in order to get one of his main bills through. In the end it passed by 6 votes - when his majority it 160. It went through partially because of the votes of Scottish MPs - where the Bill will not take effect mad

Blair has got to the stage where he admits he expects his MPs to completely follow what he says. This isn't a democracy, it's a farce. On top of that he's in deep water at the moment for having to admit to being either a liar or incompetent. The Hutton enquire officially came out in favour of the government - regardless of the fact that the official findings are contradicted by the public available evidence. But regardless of the headlines and the fact he's not lagging in opinion polls he keeps looking smug and he keeps getting away with it.

So all in all Frosty's post was perfectly valid.

And in case you didn't know due to our parliment being so old we still have odd phrases. A 'Whip' is a person who's job is to make sure that their fellow party members tow the party line and discipline out of order MPs. They've been really, really busy lately!

Also I haven't had a chance to look into it, but voting rights are denied to a large range of offenders, not just murderers and rapists. Then add on top of that the Florida example where people with similar names where excluded. Innocent people are also denied a fundamental American right.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, once again, it isnt what someone says, it is how it is said and precieved. He could be 100% right, but how he said it, was what I thought as a stab.


Dom, I've read Stupid White Men, I know about the Florida issue, yep a major F^*( up but man you can't say that it happens all the time, atleast not all the time on purpose wink


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:After a bit of a think about it, i'm inclined to agree that no criminal should have their franchise permanently removed.
thin end of the wedge and all that...

Dom, are you suffering from the common misconception that our political system is 'meant' to be a democracy?

It has democratic elements, but is still based on the premise that the people don't generally know best.

Dom sayQuote:
But regardless of the headlines and the fact he's not lagging in opinion polls [Blair] keeps looking smug and he keeps getting away with it.



Lack of any real competition, innit? You prefer Michael Howard (ENH)? No, i thought not.

but don't you reckon it's getting more likely Blair's going to get stabbed in the back by his own party, Thatcher stylee?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Don't worry, I'm under no preconceptions about a democracy existing anywhere. There are however places that seem to do it a lot better than us.

And at least Micheal "draw horns on me and see how well they fit" Howard proves an opposition and will hopefully reduce Labour's majority in the next election.


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Quote:
Dom, once again, it isnt what someone says, it is how it is said and precieved. He could be 100% right, but how he said it, was what I thought as a stab.


Ray the ENTIRE point of that sentence was to stop you from overreacting and presuming all we were doing was having a go at the US

that's why it finishes "just incase anyone thought this was all anti-US."

Let's not get this all screwed up. The UK is very messed up in this area right now, so much so I'm debating if I'll bother to vote - doesn't seem to make any difference what the people want these days.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...

Total posts: 310
Posted:No, please vote - abstaining in disgust is too easily misinterpreted as apathy. Vote for the green party, then at least whoever wins out of the two almost identical main parties will notice a swell of environmental concern, and may make more of an effort next time.

The Confusion Squid has many tentacles

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:"Two almost identical main parties" eek

No. Of the two main parties neither may lean far enough left for you (and me)

But the Tories are still WELL to the right of Labour.

Take a look at the policies. Particularly, as far as my interest extends, on [the subject we aren't allowed to talk about].

All politicians are evil hypocrites.

Some are more evil and hypocritical than others.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...

Total posts: 310
Posted:I'm sorry, I'm going to stand by that statement. When you say "well to the right", what are you really talking about - about the genuine differences made to the lives of people in this country or in others? There is no real difference mate. None at all. I'd still rather have Labour than Tories, agreed, as they are still at least nominally to the left, but in some respects I think a period of Tory government might demonstrate to the Labour party the degree to which their actions have been held against them... so I don't think it matters much.

I think that the invasion of Iraq, sanctioned by both the Tory and the Labour party, was so morally hideous that any minor differences pale in comparison. Who gives a shlt about drugs, if that's what you're talking about? Who cares if a bunch of rich middle class caners get busted every now and again?

Both the Tory and the Labour party are pandering their asylum policy to the tabloid fueled paranoia - if Tony Blair doesn't feel able to go as far as Michael Howard at the moment, that's just political strategy, not conscience.


The Confusion Squid has many tentacles

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Quote:
Both the Tory and the Labour party are pandering their asylum policy to the tabloid fueled paranoia - if Tony Blair doesn't feel able to go as far as Michael Howard at the moment, that's just political strategy, not conscience.


Well said, and too often the way on our politics - whoever in opposition promises wonderful huge reforms, comes into power then fannys about for four years.

Waste of time! They should be more accountable for what they promise.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
I think that the invasion of Iraq, sanctioned by both the Tory and the Labour party, was so morally hideous that any minor differences pale in comparison.



The iraq issue is the subject of a different thread in this forum, so i won't touch it here.

Quote:
Who gives a shlt about drugs, if that's what you're talking about? Who cares if a bunch of rich middle class caners get busted every now and again?



i do, its an important issue of civil rights, and indicative of the parties attitude toward civil rights and logical non-tabloid fuelled legislation in general.

but again thats isn't for discussion here.

Anyway, a single issue does not make a political landscape.

On Asylum: yes yes yes. i agree entirely smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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joe_sixsteps


joe_sixsteps

mULti-torTOISe
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon,...

Total posts: 310
Posted:Quote:
i do, its an important issue of civil rights, and indicative of the parties attitude toward civil rights and logical non-tabloid fuelled legislation in general.





Civil rights? Maybe, but it's got to be about the least important of all the civil rights that get abused and ignored by this country. If accepting a sentence of life in prison for everyone caught with a reefer would have prevented the war in Iraq, caused the collapse of the British small arms trade to poverty stricken conflict zones or even persuaded our government to abandon just the interest on Third World debt then I wouldn't think twice.



Sure, in an ideal world we could take whatever we want, but I'm afraid that it just doesn't even feature on a list of my concerns. When I was at Uni I had a lot of fun organising a "Legalize It" campaign and getting up the noses of all our college deans. Afterwards I was bragging happily about it to my Mum, and she said "Yes, it's good that you're not apathetic, but it's a shame that with all the things that are going on in the world, all you think is important enough to get active about is this."



Aye. When you say that it's an "important issue of civil rights," what are you comparing it to?



Anyway, to get back to the point -



Quote:
a single issue does not make a political landscape





Or, in this case, a political desert, the drab hopelesness of which is enlivened here and there by the rotting corpse of a some desolate idealist... I agree with this comment, but I think that there's a disparity between your two arguments - you want to use the drugs issue as an indicator of attitude to civil rights, but you're not prepared to take Iraq as an indicator of the propensity to commit mass slaughter for dubious political and economic gain...



A metaphor. You are in a small control room with two psychopaths. The walls are lined with buttons, which you quickly realise are connected to some of the most sophisticated weapons systems on the planet. Probably neither psychopath will kill you, but they want you to decide which of them will be allowed to play with the buttons. You know that whichever one you choose will cause the deaths of thousands and thousands of people.



As you sit and think about this choice, one of the psychopaths comes over to you and, with a big, photogenic grin, offers you a toke on his spliff. Does this really make any difference to your choice?



umm

EDITED_BY: joe_sixsteps (1076526372)


The Confusion Squid has many tentacles

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Quote:
A metaphor. You are in a small control room with two psychopaths. The walls are lined with buttons, which you quickly realise are connected to some of the most sophisticated weapons systems on the planet. Probably neither psychopath will kill you, but they want you to decide which of them will be allowed to play with the buttons. You know that whichever one you choose will cause the deaths of thousands and thousands of people.



Now, I may not be understanding your analogy fully, so let me tell you what I think you are saying before going on. I read, that in no matter what country, a presidential/PM/whatever election, in the end boils down to two psycopaths who just want to press nuke buttons, is this even close to being right?

If I am right, then I feel that your analogy is really absurde, if I am wrong don't bother reading any futher because it is just me writing senceless garbage tongue

So, assuming that I am right I will continue.

The above analogy is wrong because, how can you truly know that one of those two psycopaths will, once they get the chance, play with the buttons? What if you have a pro-war as all hades type guy in office and something comes up and instead of jumping into it he finds a peacefull soloution?

Would Bush be a button pressing psycopath if, say something happens in the next few months and instead of sending troops, he finds a peacefull way out of it? While granted you have your opinoin of what he has done in the past, what if he does a 180? How does that effect your opinion?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Joe, not everyone shares your exact stance on iraq. Myself and the above postee for a start wink i'd estimate that 95% of threads in this forum are about iraq, so do we need another one?

You're sounding a bit wound up, considering none of our opinions actually impact on the situation. That could be me reading you wrong though... Remember, in general everyone wants worldwide happiness and justice (even Bush and Blair, though you might not believe it), we just have different ideas of how best to get there. We've probably smashed our heads together enough about the war by now to know we ain't convincing each the other of our point of view.

and much as i'd like to reply to what you've said, anything touching the drug issue isn't for this board unless there's been a rules change.

*flogs himself with birch twigs for bringing it up in the first place*

We can have a debate about it over tea and cakes this weekend if you want smile
relaxed and friendly debates tend to reach more satisfying conclusions, cos it becomes easier to concede your dodgy points, rather than arguing for the sake of it.
(rhetorical you, not accusatory ubbrollsmile )

and that really is my final final final words on either of those matters here
*zips mouth shut*

...

...

*unzips*

oh, Ray: You did miss the point of Joe's metaphor, because he wasn't talking about any politician. He specifically meant the two main parties in the UK at the moment. Whether Joe thinks all politicians are psychotic is an undiscussed and entirely different matter. But would be a good starter to getting this thread a bit less UK specific.

(oh that was my fault too wasn't it? spank)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Well yeah, but I thought it was nice to not be all US for a change smile It's too much like shooting fish in a barrel ubbrollsmile

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:spank

100 lines Frosty:

i must not troll


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:lol biggrin I didn't mean it in a trolling way - I just am fairly used to threads on here being US centric - in here for sure, probably 'cos they're mostly about Iraq stuff

Other countries have democracy issues and it's nice to be talking about those


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well... It wouldn't be the first time I missed the point.

I still think it is jacked up to think that way about a person befor ever seeing them in the office. But that is just me.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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