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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I understand that this has developed into a large community. However, in the past few weeks I have received more complaints about the behaviour of others in threads than I feel I have ever seen in my years here at HoP.

I am deeply concerned, disappointed and feeling pretty helpless.
Which is why I am posting this. Please know that I am in no way representing Malcolm, Charles, Flash Fire, Josh, Dom or the opinions of any other HoP staff member. I am making this appeal as Pele, a fellow member of this community who is extremely upset by the PM's and emails I have been getting on a regular basis about the lack of respect on this board.

Correcting the mis-spellings and grammar of others in a thread is tactless and rude, not to mention humiliating and it hurts feelings. You do not know from what educational background someone comes, so do not assume they want you to correct them. If you have an issue, PM it instead.

Answering a question. Several times in the past few weeks people have put up questions about how to go about doing something..let's say...teach, perform, make a video, etc. A specific topic of interest came up about charging for these things. The statement "You shouldn't charge because it is about the art not money" and those like it neither answers the question nor helps the poster. It shows a rather pretentious attitude in fact. There are alot of people out there who make money on what we do. If that is something you disagree with, then start an appropriate thread, but respect the request of the original poster.
Likewise, if a certain genre of people are asked for something (a professional, a poier, etc.), please respect that unless you have something to add. There were a few complaints in thread aimed specifically at professional performers in which people would say "Well, I am not a performer and I think what you did is wrong." There was also one mentioned where a staffer responded to a poi question by saying that s/he didn't understand the attraction anyway, so what was the big deal. Again, the lack of respect for the original question is amazing to me.

Opinions. Turning an opinion based question into an all out debate, which then becomes and arguement, is not acceptible. It never has been. There are people here who are dead set it seems on forcing others to see their opinion as the better one. If you disagree fine. Put up your opinion with your supporting statements. Do not assault anyone or be rude about it. And there is no need to state your opinion 5 times in the same thread with the intent of trying to change someones mind. That shows an extreme lack of respect for the opinions of your fellow HoPper.

Use of PM's was recently called into question. They are not to be used for aggressive or illegal purposes. If you feel the need, take it to email and leave HoP out of it.

The other issue which has come up is primarily focussed around the video area. Please be supportive and constructive in your criticism. "It looks like sh!t" or "Dude, that has been done to death. Try something new" are not usually the best responses to give and do not show a support of your fellow HoPpers. Acknowledging them, offering constructive criticism and advice is welcome, however.

These are in direct response to complaints I have received over the past few weeks. Some of which I was given a copy of the thread, some of which I saw for myself.

I do know that because of the abuse of some of the priveledges (sp??) we have on HoP there have been people who have been members in good standing for years who thought perhaps they should leave.

Normally, I understand the reaction to this is "Let them go." and especially this time I feel that is not a valid response at all. I think that asking for respect is not alot. I understand that this is already one of the most accepting and nicest online communities out there, and I for one want to keep it that way and refuse to let it go the way of flaming and self-importance without a fight. But it takes us all to do that.

Please think before you post. Take a moment to read what you have written and hear it in your head in a tone other than the one you intended to make sure that even if it is criticism, it is as respectful as possible. We are all entitled to expressing our opinions and feelings, but we do not have the right to barrel over others to do so.

Thanks for your time, patience and continued involvement in Home of Poi.

Pele *the exasperated and not representing the voices of others*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:I dunno, NYC's post does fit the four way test.

and RP's post could have been better as a PM, but its public, the way he wants it, reap what you sow, innit?

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:I've always felt that a statement directed at an individual should be put in PM if it couldn't help other people reading it. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that post for his benefit only?

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I benefited from reading it.

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:Then I'm wrong smile

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:ya i have to say i benefited from that too. smile

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Mill darl, I don't think they were saying you were wrong!

I know I also benefited from it, hearing that too. It gives me closure, to know that he actually came back, and apologized of sorts. And I personally don't know if I'd had the guts to post something like that if I were in his shoes! To come back on and apologize to everyone he's hurt (etc.) when they were many and he was alone.

So, I suppose, on some sort of level, I feel better for hearing that.

But that's all just IMO. smile

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:Erm, reading this also brings me to another point: Just because we don't want to cause unnecessary conflict, that doesn't mean we have to sugar coat everything and pretend like difference of opinion doesn't exist, and that certain people's opinions are correct. These forums would be quite boring if we all act completely 100% politically correct and suck up to each other ubblol

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Quote:

well i'll say this, i wasn't around for said controversy, but if in fact what NYC said is true (and the rumors seem to all coincide), then i think a public statement like that was appropriate.



Pounce, the nice thing about HoP is that you don't have to rely on rumor. You can go back and look at a person's words. Unless they delete them. If you're curious as to Ray and my very public history you can see it here.
(Which was 3 months ago... and made me wonder why this thread came up now, rather than months ago)

Or do a search in someone's profile if you want to see a history of their posts.

I also must say that I would never make public an issue that I didn't think affected a large portion of Home of Poi. I am speaking for a large number of people who have been intimidated in the past. It does make me sad that people don't feel comfortable saying things online with the same 'honesty' (for the lack of a better word) that I do.

I'm not here to pick fights, but I will stand up for my freinds. Especially when they're right. If that conversation is going on privately, I will gladly discuss things privately. If it's going on publicly, then I am apprciative that I am allowed to respond publicly.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Vestia


Vestia

member
Location: San Diego,CA

Total posts: 47
Posted:i have only been on home of poi for a month and i have never seen disrepect. People who hurt others are just rude but, everyone has their ways of explaining things.
smile


*Vestia enters the world of poi not knowing what to do*

*smiles and than starting thinking i never know what i'm doing*

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:oh whoops, i was here for that argument. i browsed through that thread and realized i didn't want to get involved at the time.

i luckily was able to avoid most of ray's old posts, but i did browse through them a short while ago when he was referred to as possibly posting under a different name.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:---<Reads the last few posts, then goes back and reads the first post>---


You know, I'm really glad that 'irony' is in the English language... smile

Peace to everyone and to all a peaceful life...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thanks Charles,
I was just thinking that. rolleyes


You and your friends are not the only ones who have been affected by him, and I can recall consoling a close friend of both of ours on the phone about it at one point. Ray is acknowledging he hurt alot of people, and I assure you NYC, it is many more than you realize. It does not mean that you have to forgive or forget but statement such as yours are part of what has kept this going in the past.
NYC, Ray has been dealt with, many times, by the Mods. I can even remember a time when we each took turns. We have private discussions and handle so many things that you are not privvy to. I feel it is not fair of you to accuse us of turning our cheeks and being naive to things, when in fact we have done more than you can possibly ever know. Please do not think we condone anything he has done in the past. I know I have personally deleted more of his posts/threads more than any other single person in the history of the board, and have had extremely heated and aggrivated go-arounds with him in the past. He and I have since come to a respectful understanding and as such I am allowed to say hello to him if I choose. It is not the mods duty to be rude or unaccepting of anyone, regardless of their history on HoP, or our personal feeling towards them. There are in fact people that I personally dislike, but I will always treat them with fairness, respect and welcome them on HoP as a valued community member. Even Ray offered good insights and thoughts, despite his sometimes agressive demeanor. As people become personally involved in rl, the emotions carry over onto here, and we have no control over that. What we can control is how it is conveyed in accordance to the rules.

NYC...this is what I personally feel about some of what you have posted here... You seem to have explainations to things that truly are an open request of following the rules, which needs no specifics unless you are involved directly. And there have been a few comments now at which I feel that you are questioning or doubting the job that we moderators do. Again, unless it directly involves you, there is no need for you to know. We deal with people, situations and things on a daily basis both as a team and as individuals more privately than publically. We edit, delete, pm and confer more than you could ever know. It is our job to make it appear as if everything is going very smoothely on this site, and to keep damage control at a very minimum. It seems we are doing our jobs well if it seems to you we are not doing them at all. I assure you that we work hard and do the best we can, within the scope of also living our own daily lives outside of HoP.

However, all of this is a two way street. Even after the other mods and I pleaded with other people to ignore him it did not happen. The beauty of these boards is that you do not have to answer every post or thread.
Why didn't I intervene 3 months ago (I can only speak for myself and not for other mods, and while we are under no obligation to really explain ourselves to anyone but Malcolm and people we are dealing with, I will clue you in)? Because I was able to check the boards maybe 2x per week in November due to my real life taking over, and if a thread sounded like anything political, I didn't check it. The thread you referred to, I never saw until today. Which I did read through, and I will undoubtedly say that it is my opinion you were the agressor in that situation NYC. The conversation was not heated until you intervened with the following statement:
"I never understand why Ray hangs out here at all... Has he ever gotten in a discussion here that didn't turn ugly? What could he possibly be gaining by posting? He prides himself on being "anti social" and "not your ray of sunshine".

Are you just here to peddle negativity?

If you're looking for something to kick, buy a puppy. "

Up until then it was a debate about when to give respect/derision. You neither addressed that issue or the one in the topic, but came in with guns barrelling directly toward Ray. As much as I adore you, I would have reemed you a new one for this. I would have immediately asked you to delete that post and take it to PM, and if you did not, I would have done so myself. I would hope after so many years, you would know that about me by now.
This is something I would say to you in a PM, though it appears to me that you want this on a public forum.
Again, this goes back to how you deal with things. If you felt he was out of line, according to HoP (personal life aside), then you should have PM'd one of us Mods. I know I did not receive a complaint from you or anyone else about it.

The point is, he made an apology in front of everyone here. If you choose to accept it or not is up to you. However, airing your dirty laundry for everyone is not in the whole view of respect that we are asking for. You can have harsh feelings about Ray if you want to. PM him about it. What you say here, and rumors, will obviously affect others opinions of Ray before they have the chance to figure their own out for themselves. That is something that if it were anyone other than Ray you would have an issue with, and so I will not allow it to happen this time either. It all comes down to respect. From here on out I am asking that your issues with anyone be handled in PM or through the mods. This is the stuff we are hoping to avoid, and this is now twice I feel you are the aggressor.

I am saying here now to please take it to PM, either with me or with Ray.
In fact, if anyone has a problem on the board with someone else, before you turn it into a battle of wills, bring it to any of us mods. There are 4 of us, and 2 admins....good grief, this is what we are hear for!

Kindest Regards,
Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:all I have to say is,
every action has an equal and oppersite reaction. NYC is the reaction.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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general spin


member
Location: England

Total posts: 52
Posted:Hey... kicking puppies ??? theres some bad vibes on this thread man.

Non-Https Image Link


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Puk
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz

Total posts: 2615
Posted:Post deleted by Puk
EDITED_BY: Charles (1075065888)


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:without getting into details, I stand right behind NYC, both in his statement and his decision to post it to the thread instead of PMing it.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Pele: good comments in first post, I agree.
word smile



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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:First and foremost, I think this public discussion is extremely helpful. I am thankful to the mods and administrators for allowing this very helpful discussion. I had always seen the HoP mods act in a "Let them play" style of officiating which I appreciate. If "actions" are allowed to remain, then "reacions" should be allowed as well.

Pele, The link to which I I posted three months ago was my reaction. I'm sorry you missed it then and I'm certain you missed the many many posts that precipitated my reaction in that post. I was honestly disappointed that even me, protesting, whining, asking politely, and eventually standing up and screaming did not draw attention to the situation. You can see now how I assumed that the Mods were just 'letting us play'.

Point 2:
I think a community does have a right to react when attacked. Especially when it APPEARS that nothing is being done. I believe you when you say that Mods have been working behind the scenes but I can also say that I'm sure many many members would have been more at ease had they known that SOMETHING was being done on their behalf. I spoke in the manner that I did because I felt that no one else was publicly standing up for those that were unable.

I personally prefer public discussion of public issues, and private discussion of private issues. I have NEVER brought up something private in a public forum. I ONLY react publicly to words that have been written in public forums. And I think that's an extremely important point.

Pele, In THIS post, RAY dragged his dirty laundry out, said MY name, and I REACTED to it... and I'm being told not to air MY dirty laundry? I'm offended! Ray used the words "NYC" way before NYC used the words "Ray".

If an individual is allowed to publicly brag about being antisocial and an "ass" (not my words), should I not be allowed to publicly agree?

Lastly, I HEAR what you're saying. I understand the undertones. I appreciate the fact that the Mods are working very hard to keep the peace. I also understand and appreciate the fact that the Mods and Admins often have their hands tied politically and can not disclose all that they know and do.

PS. I'm gonna go spin some poi now. Does anyone else still do that?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Quote:

PS. I'm gonna go spin some poi now. Does anyone else still do that?



I do... sometimes.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I also agree with NYC.



Quote:
if a thread sounded like anything political, I didn't check it.





Pele, I was confused by this. I thought that if a thread sounded political, it would have been even more important to check it out.



When I first registered on HoP nearly a year ago, I read regular posts which I considered trolling, and had been amazed that despite protests by other members, the posts continued. I hesitate to say "on this other BB I've read", but even in the smallest of BBs, any posts which demonstrate trolling behaviour are generally the first priorities of online moderation, as it helps prevent organised trolls destroying the community. I'm sure such a balance for HoP would be realistic.



Being a newbie, it left me feeling very confused regarding the atmosphere of the forum. There were times when I should have contacted a moderator, but did not do so because they appeared to tolerate similar behaviour, to the untrained eye at least.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



On the subject of the Bush joke thread, I see Ray responded to the jokes with:



Quote:
Odd... the same people that cry out for respect, never give it in return.





Surely if he'd genuinely had a problem with the thread as a whole, he should have PMd a mod? After the inevitable comments to the contrary of what Ray said, he later replied:



Quote:
What is really amazing is that people seem to be able to pull anything they want out of just one sentence that I say.





As his first comment only consisted of one sentence, I would call that a trap, or trolling. Which is a shame, because I know Ray is perfectly capable of reasonable discussion without resorting to that, and it is pleasant when he does so. But his recent return and name change suggest to me he will continue to do otherwise.

EDITED_BY: spanner (1075063205)


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thanks Glass. I appreciate it.

Public reaction, then? Alright, though it is against my better judgement.

In this case you are the instigator. He brought up your name only to illustrate his own inadequacies and apologize, not to air dirty laundry or bring up specifics. You did that all on your own when a simple, "No thanks" would have sufficed and then take it to a PM. You were rude and it was an uncalled for reaction to the thread at hand, and in this case I will defend Ray. He said nothing to hurt anyone in that post. All of the agression I see in this thread is from you.

Again I reiterate, when there were issues, people must have been comfortable with the situation or else I would suspect mods and admins would have heard about it. As per this:
(from HoP Guidelines, I have higlighted the pertinent point)

When to contact a moderator?

If you feel that an unsuitable post has been made by someone.
If you are concerned about a thread or someones behaviour.
You have made a dreadful mistake and don't know how to fix it.
You have a question or need advice.
If you have a problem with them about non mderator related issues then contact them by email or PM.

But we did not. Do not complain about a lack of reaction to a situation to which you are part of the problem. A click of the button and things would have been rolling, and we have proven that many times over. Vigilante-ism is not welcome on HoP.

And to the thread you linked to...It was a personal reaction to a situation not exsisting in that thread. You were out of line. Personal issues do not belong in a thread hijack, which is exactly what happened then, and what is happening now. You have the choice to post or not. In neither thread (this or the one linked to) were you called out in a negative way, and yet you have acted agressively in both cases. I am telling you, NYC, that this is not acceptible. Ray has not been on the best behaviour always, he has been dealt with many times, neither he nor any of us here at HoP will deny that, it does not give you the right to act the same way.
Here are the Guidelines you agreed to when you signed on about that...
(I have highlighted the specific areas which apply)

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.

Ray is welcome here just as everyone else is. In the time HoP has been around there have been less than a handful of people banned for very extreme cases. No one but Malcolm has the right to say who does or does not belong on here, not even you NYC.

I also would like to add, from a sheerly personal perspective, that you mentioned that you did not appreciate that Ray brought your name into it, and yet you did the same to Dom. Who, out of respect for him as an admin, should have been left out of this by you. Yes, Ray mentioned him, but it is Dom's choice and not yours whether to get involved.

The entire point of this thread has been ignored in, as Charles said, an ironic twist, it seems. (this is not directed at you NYC but to everyone, because it also responds to some situations you are not part of)....

You do not have to like the person, or respect them as a person or performer in order to post with respect. They are very different things. One negative post brings everyone down.

You do not have to post. If you are angry, upset, whatever and you feel the need to respond...talk to a mod, it is what we are here for, and/or take it to PM. Hijacking a thread out of some personal emotion is not acceptible or respectful to everyone else involved in the conversation.
Silent treatment goes a looooooong way on the internet!

We realize this place will not always be filled with rainbows and sunshines but it is not a personal battle ground either.

And NYC, just to keep you in the loop and in public, which are both at your request as my better judgement says to PM everything that was posted here but... The mods are discussing how to handle this upsurgance. Please expect to hear from us in the coming weeks, or perhaps we can talk if I am still welcome to see you when I go down there in 2 weeks.

Kindest Regards to EVERYONE,
Pele

And yes love, I do still spin, sometimes with my hands tied! wink



Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Quote:
Pele, I was confused by this. I thought that if a thread sounded political, it would have been even more important to check it out.





That is why there are many mods on here. I don't because I have strong opinions on such topics and choose to remain silent and not involve myself in such things. Most threads I do at least skim through though.



Quote:
When I first registered on HoP nearly a year ago, I read regular posts which I considered trolling, and had been amazed that despite protests by other members, the posts continued. I hesitate to say "on this other BB I've read", but even in the smallest of BBs, any posts which demonstrate trolling behaviour are generally the first priorities of online moderation, as it helps prevent organised trolls destroying the community.



Being a newbie, it left me feeling very confused regarding the atmosphere of the forum. There were times when I should have contacted a moderator, but did not do so because they appeared to tolerate similar behaviour, to the untrained eye at least.





Again, many things are handled through PM's and discussion. Many of the worst things have been deleted. However, before you came on the Mods were brought under fire by several members (you know who you are) for deleting and shutting things down too much. We found what we felt was a happy medium and now we are being told we do not mod enough? And we have this little button to report a post, I do not recall it being used often in many of these instances. We have thousands of posts to wade through, we expect help from the members and Malcolm has even provided an easy means to do so.



It is not just "trolls" that wreck the community. It is everyone who plays the game, so that was an unfair statement. And there are also alot of people with passionate opinions on certain topics and so they may seem to be trolls when they are not.



Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



On the subject of the Bush joke thread, I see Ray responded to the jokes with:



Quote:
Odd... the same people that cry out for respect, never give it in return.





Surely if he'd genuinely had a problem with the thread as a whole, he should have PMd a mod?





Yes he should have, that is his mistake. Ray is a very passionate patriot who should have used his better judgement to avoid that thread completely. That is not what is in question however. I do not find his response at that point to be out of line.



Quote:
After the inevitable comments to the contrary of what Ray said, he later replied:



Quote:
What is really amazing is that people seem to be able to pull anything they want out of just one sentence that I say.









Which is a common response on here by many, because it happens alot. He did not trap anyone with his initial post, but he should not have posted at all, I agree.



Quote:
Which is a shame, because I know Ray is perfectly capable of reasonable discussion without resorting to that, and it is pleasant when he does so.





He is, and has been on countless occassions as well, which is why he deserves the same respects as every single other person on here.

And for the record, Ray is not the worst that has ever been on this board either. I am really sorry that you are the target here Ray. It is wrong and I respect fully that you are not responding to this thread. You are still welcome here, so long as you follow the same guidelines as everyone else. Thank you.



Quote:
But his recent return and name change suggest to me he will continue to do otherwise.





You, and anyone else, have no right to judge that. I have seen people change their names like their underwear on here, and so why should he not be able to?

Logic would say that if he really was attempting to be provoking that he would not have used is real name in conjunction with the old one at all, he would have simply signed on with a new name. We have had people do that many times as well, caused havoc and been found out. It is not so simple as all that. If people choose not to trust someone, that is their choice and I respect that. However, no one has the right to treat each other on here as I have witnessed in this thread.

If you (meaning community, not Spanner) want to have these games and trysts, then take it off board.



*Thinking the "Nazi-b!tch" Pele (that is what I was called, yeah?) needs to make a come back*

Perhaps in answering the pleas of people to not edit/delete as much as we did is what has allowed this to go so far. Things can not be both ways on here. You (the community) either want us to do our jobs or you do not. We will not only do them so that some people feel better, we will be impartial and treat everyone equally.

Last time we did that, people didn't like it either.



Kindest Regards to all,

Pele

EDITED_BY: Pele (1075079621)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Hi NYC.

I'd just like to discuss a little aside here, with your statement below...

"I think a community does have a right to react when attacked. Especially when it APPEARS that nothing is being done."

This is an oversimplification of a very complex issue. September 11 is an example of people reacting when they feel they are being attacked. Iraq and Afghanistan are other examples. IN MY OPINION, absolutely NONE of these actions are justifiable!

In my way of looking at things, you have the right to defend yourself when being attacked. BUT you have to also understand that most people feel attacked a lot more than they actually are. And if you act in haste and anger, YOU become the agressor.


People have a tendency to take even the tiniest little issue as personal, when it had nothing to do with them at all. They then feel 'attacked', so, if they go on the offensive against their percieved 'attacker', then that attacker also feels 'attacked', and feels they must respond in kind!

So you end up with two people, fully justified in their own opinion, being violent and angry with each other and causing pain and hurt FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER!


Two wrongs don't make a right. If you see a wrong being committed, no matter how strongly you feel about it, doing a similar thing back makes you just like the other person. Your personal justification for doing it has NO EFFECT on whether your action is right or wrong.

And often, someone may see your wrong, and feel they need to right it by attacking you! Suddenly the number of agressors has become three instead of one!

Not only that, but this is allowing the wrong you saw to affect you in a negative way and essentially make you a worse person than before.

YOU are responsible for your own actions, no matter what anyone else does

Personally, I try as hard as I can to not let other peoples negative actions affect me negatively. I try to react to it in as positive way as possible, and to show others around me that they can act positively too.

Sure, it doens't work everytime, but I have had gangs of aggressive streetkids start abusing and threatening me and a few minutes later, they are saying "please" and "thank you" and some of them are learning to unicycle! They attacked me, and I managed to make them realise that their attack was innappropriate, and then they became embarassed and wanted to make it up by being nice...


Once again, we are all responsible for our own actions, and we should never let anothers actions turn us into agressive individuals...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
That is why there are many mods on here. I don't because I have strong opinions on such topics and choose to remain silent and not involve myself in such things. Most threads I do at least skim through though.

.



Thanks for the clarification.



Quote:
We found what we felt was a happy medium and now we are being told we do not mod enough?





As this is a rapidly growing community, maybe the happy medium is something that should be reviewed regularly, to ensure that all parties are satisfied? That way, people may feel less inclined to bottle things up which explode in threads like these.



Quote:
It is not just "trolls" that wreck the community. It is everyone who plays the game, so that was an unfair statement.





I didn't make a statement about whether or not it's just trolls who can wreck a community, merely that trolling and particular posts can do so.



Agreed.



Quote:
You, and anyone else, have no right to judge that. I have seen people change their names like their underwear on here, and so why should he not be able to?





I wasn't judging. Even I changed my name, remember? I said that it was what his actions suggested to me, as it was coupled with breaking his vow not to come back. It's his decision, naturally, so I won't mention it again, but don't expect me to play along. I don't indulge in "games and trysts", at least, not to this serious a level.



*edit: part of this message cut and sent by PM instead as it is more appropriate to do so: sorry for any confusion*

EDITED_BY: spanner (1075078620)


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP

Total posts: 1002
Posted:Pele and Charles,
Totally agree with what you have said.

Hmmm. I remember a big bright and blinding box that flashed in to everyones eyes before they could post telling of the sites rules. I had lots of complaints about that biggrin

Sadly people forget the guidelines as time goes on.

Mods and Admins can not be expected to read everything .
You should never assume that a moderator has already read an offensive/unsuitable post and decided to do nothing.

ASSUME = makes an ASS out of U and ME

A community to function well must have rules and boundaries.

We all must help to make the site respectful by respecting and following the rules.


Sadly it seems to me that more of our society turns a blind eye to things that upsets them and they let it build up to the point when their anger explodes out attacking those around them.

Pele has started this thread in an effort to point out what is happening to reduce the occurances of these explosions. She is being constructive and trying to remind us of respect. Respect for each other, for differing views and HOP as a whole. Thanks Pele ubblove

Sadly it seems others have let themselves get overwhelmed to the point of attack instead of either following the guidlines or walking away and (if they respect HOP as a whole) notifying a Moderator/Administrator frown

It is also very sad indeed after someone who attacks themselves is also attacked by others around them confused.

To those that disagree...
I stand with the moderators and will defend their actions as moderators. Because they are following the guidelines as set out by myself.
If anyone disagrees with the guidelines or sees them not being followed then please email or pm myself, or contact a moderator using the button just below each post/reply. We will help.

No one is perfect but we can all try our best.

Regards

Malcolm


"May your balls always burn"

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:




In my way of looking at things, you have the right to defend yourself when being attacked. BUT you have to also understand that most people feel attacked a lot more than they actually are. And if you act in haste and anger, YOU become the agressor...



..So you end up with two people, fully justified in their own opinion, being violent and angry with each other and causing pain and hurt FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER!





Personally, I try as hard as I can to not let other peoples negative actions affect me negatively. I try to react to it in as positive way as possible, and to show others around me that they can act positively too.







Valuable advice, concisely put.



Reading some of the aggressive threads in the past I've often felt that the individual singled out as the cause of it is merely someone who has insufficient control over their reactions, and that others take advantage of that by goading him/her into action.



To ignore/not respond to a percieved attack is not always the best way to handle it, but it's amazing how well it works in the majority of situations.



Moderators do a difficult job, especially on a forum this size. I've been pm-ed on at least two occasions about things I posted; both times there was no intent on my part to offend, but both times I could see that the posts could easily be seen in a different light, so I apologised and edited as necessary.



I've seen several forums where the moderators don't do such a good job, and they are not pleasant places to be.



It's been interesting following this thread as I didn't realise that there was so much going on behind the scenes. I also appreciate the advice to use the 'Notify Moderator' button, I suspect that many people feel reluctant to use it because it may be seen as creating work for the moderators. Whereas, in reality, it actually makes it easier for them to do their job and is a way of contributing to the running of the forum.










EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1075081603)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I look forward to seeing a HoP where neither Ray nor I nor anyone else is allowed to antagonize, intimidate, berate, or humilate others.

Pele, I will agree, or at least defer comment, with all you have said (though I find characterizing me as a Vigilante a bit hard to swallow).. except for one comment:

Quote:
Ray has not been on the best behaviour always, he has been dealt with many times, neither he nor any of us here at HoP will deny that, it does not give you the right to act the same way.




I believe that all members should have the same rights, or lack of them. We should all be held to the same level of respect. That's all I was ever asking for.

I have great respect for the job that the administration does in moderating this site. I never intended any criticizm that was anything but constructive. This is the best website on the web, which is why I keep coming back. And also why I'm so passionate about protecting it.

I look forward to a warmer and friendlier HoP and will certainly contribute to acheiveing that goal.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:frown the development of this topic was so far out in left field that I never fathomed its possibilities. My reply has been made to NYC in private at his request.

Have a good day everyone.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Oh sure NOW you PM me... wink after the mods have threadened to "ream me a new one"... figures.

*Skips off to check his 'in' box*


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Much thanks to you both for that. hug all around!


And a huge thanks to Malcolm, Charles, Flash Fire and Dom for the help/support!
ubblove
Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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