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Forums > Technical Discussion > Replacements for keyrings?
Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:Hi there.
here is the poi configuration I am thinking of making.
Grip - keyring-swivel-keyring-chain-keyring-swivel-keyring-wick
I don't really trust keyrings tho, but they are the only things it seems that can hold the fishing swivels i will be using ( just regular 120lb rated fishing swivels. ) I was thinking of getting ball chains, but if i do, I am sorta back to square one again, having the use keyrings to put in the swivels.. (I Dont really want to get quicklinks + swivels from the store here, Get's a little expensive, and quicklinks are a bit bulky.) For the chains, right now i am using this cable that i got from home depot, it looks like bike cable, but a LOT stronger, (they hold bout 160lb i think) it flexes a lot, but it regains it's shape, its not like ball chain or string. )
You guys think that keyrings will be okay? or don't even go there?
Thanks.
here is the poi configuration I am thinking of making.
Grip - keyring-swivel-keyring-chain-keyring-swivel-keyring-wick
I don't really trust keyrings tho, but they are the only things it seems that can hold the fishing swivels i will be using ( just regular 120lb rated fishing swivels. ) I was thinking of getting ball chains, but if i do, I am sorta back to square one again, having the use keyrings to put in the swivels.. (I Dont really want to get quicklinks + swivels from the store here, Get's a little expensive, and quicklinks are a bit bulky.) For the chains, right now i am using this cable that i got from home depot, it looks like bike cable, but a LOT stronger, (they hold bout 160lb i think) it flexes a lot, but it regains it's shape, its not like ball chain or string. )
You guys think that keyrings will be okay? or don't even go there?
Thanks.
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Posted:from my expeince with key rings (which i might add, is not overly extensive) once u start to get some speed up and espeically if there is a bit of wait on the far side of the key ring, and i spose the added heat doesn't help things to much, the key rings simply pull apartand become more or less a straight piece of hardened wire which is usful for nothing at all. this of course means that u have uncontrolled flying fire balls (i.e kevlar wicks), which again, from my null extensive expeirnce is not ussually a good thing, nor a very safe one. Though it does look rather spectacular
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Posted:I've not used keyrings on the lit end of Poi, but I've had the same set on the handle end for over 6 months now and they show no sign of wear and tear. To join the swivels I use to my chains, I got a length of steel wire (~1.5mm thick) and bent it into a flattened 0 shape. This seems to have worked really well for the 6 or so months I've been spinning (with and without fire). That's my 2p anyway... 
Cake or Death?
DeletePosted:Hi Mehmet,
Quicklinks are a good choice if you want to be safe, and they work with the ballchain ok. If you want to use something besides ballchain, and have a swivel that has a loop big enough for a quicklink, I would suggest paying for that over using a quicklink. The keyrings are bent even on my practice poi, so on fire poi i would suggest replacing them somewhat often if they look like they are starting to bend. i have had swivels slip out of bent split rings.
Good Luck,
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
Quicklinks are a good choice if you want to be safe, and they work with the ballchain ok. If you want to use something besides ballchain, and have a swivel that has a loop big enough for a quicklink, I would suggest paying for that over using a quicklink. The keyrings are bent even on my practice poi, so on fire poi i would suggest replacing them somewhat often if they look like they are starting to bend. i have had swivels slip out of bent split rings.
Good Luck,
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.
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Posted:I use split rings but I try to get a thicker type. I find they last a little bit longer, but like others, I have also come across problems with them starting to seperate. Best thing thing to do is always check your poi before and after burns.
I have been doing poi etc for nearly four years now and I have been helping some of my friends make new sets of poi. I personally don't use fishing spinners, but some of my group do. I think that they are invaluable with flag poi as they stop them turning into ropes,but I just don't feel that I need them for my fire poi.
What does anybody else think??
Do you think they are essential or is it just personal preference??
And also if you do use them, where do you think is better to place them..the top by the handles or chain-link-spinner-link-poi?
I have been doing poi etc for nearly four years now and I have been helping some of my friends make new sets of poi. I personally don't use fishing spinners, but some of my group do. I think that they are invaluable with flag poi as they stop them turning into ropes,but I just don't feel that I need them for my fire poi.
What does anybody else think??
Do you think they are essential or is it just personal preference??
And also if you do use them, where do you think is better to place them..the top by the handles or chain-link-spinner-link-poi?
Hilary
Deleteonewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Fishing spinners aren't essential, I don't use them on any of my poi except for a set I made with juggling rings for heads- the rings aerodynamic properties created twisting.
I use split rings for my poi, including fire chains. As a beginner I found they did pull apart when spinning fast, but this no longer happens because I rarely spin fast, and, when I do up the speed, there seems to be a lot less energy imparted than as a beginner.
You do have to be careful with split rings, for example, I'm wary of letting other people use my fire chains in case they come apart.
Split rings come in different strengths, also there's no reason why you can't use two or three for extra security.
I use split rings for my poi, including fire chains. As a beginner I found they did pull apart when spinning fast, but this no longer happens because I rarely spin fast, and, when I do up the speed, there seems to be a lot less energy imparted than as a beginner.
You do have to be careful with split rings, for example, I'm wary of letting other people use my fire chains in case they come apart.
Split rings come in different strengths, also there's no reason why you can't use two or three for extra security.
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But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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Posted:I have lots of problems with split rings:
1 strength. there aint no point having a 1000lb chain attached to a 50lb keyring, and as other peaple have said, they fail regularly.
2 bulk. I find that split rings make moves like hyperloops and the like much more difficult becuase they stand out from the chain and catch on each other when the chains are wrapping. this also makes it hard to pull the chains apart if you mess up and get tangled.
3 tangles. many times I have found that split rings will mesh together when they are tangled and become totally fixed, end of burn and then you have to wait 20 mins for them to cool enough to unstick them again.
if you must use them, put them near the handles, theres less g force and less liklyhood of getting tangled/meshed. but my primary advice is to use ball chain and quick links, yes its more expensive, but theres a reason for that, its cos its better.
my secondary advice is to use quick links and find swivels to take it, normall fishing swivels are not really very good load wise anyway, and there have been neumerous links to sites that offer high-strength swivels in previous tech discussions, do a search on the old board.
for more info on loading and keyrings, read this essay on hop. Essay
T
1 strength. there aint no point having a 1000lb chain attached to a 50lb keyring, and as other peaple have said, they fail regularly.
2 bulk. I find that split rings make moves like hyperloops and the like much more difficult becuase they stand out from the chain and catch on each other when the chains are wrapping. this also makes it hard to pull the chains apart if you mess up and get tangled.
3 tangles. many times I have found that split rings will mesh together when they are tangled and become totally fixed, end of burn and then you have to wait 20 mins for them to cool enough to unstick them again.
if you must use them, put them near the handles, theres less g force and less liklyhood of getting tangled/meshed. but my primary advice is to use ball chain and quick links, yes its more expensive, but theres a reason for that, its cos its better.
my secondary advice is to use quick links and find swivels to take it, normall fishing swivels are not really very good load wise anyway, and there have been neumerous links to sites that offer high-strength swivels in previous tech discussions, do a search on the old board.
for more info on loading and keyrings, read this essay on hop. Essay
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Posted:Using a keyring with fire poi is, in my mind, completely irresponsible. They simply aren't designed to take that kind of weight, as described in this link:
http://www.homeofpoi.com/articles/news2.htm
br>
If you have a failure at the wrong moment (Spinning quickly on an upswing near a tree, for example) you're putting yourself, your safety, and your audience at risk. Spend the extra 4 dollars for some quick links, it's worth it.
http://www.homeofpoi.com/articles/news2.htm
br>
If you have a failure at the wrong moment (Spinning quickly on an upswing near a tree, for example) you're putting yourself, your safety, and your audience at risk. Spend the extra 4 dollars for some quick links, it's worth it.
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Posted:Quote:
Using a keyring with fire poi is, in my mind, completely irresponsible. They simply aren't designed to take that kind of weight
Asking someone to make a safety decision based on a gross generalization is, in my mind, completely irresponsible. I would prefer that people make decisions based on facts that are relevant to a given situation. Different split rings have varying load capacities and are rated for different applications. If anyone intends to use them to construct fire poi, I would recommend that one ascertain their load capacity before doing so.
One can find high capacity split rings from stores that sell saltwater fishing tackle.
Using a keyring with fire poi is, in my mind, completely irresponsible. They simply aren't designed to take that kind of weight
Asking someone to make a safety decision based on a gross generalization is, in my mind, completely irresponsible. I would prefer that people make decisions based on facts that are relevant to a given situation. Different split rings have varying load capacities and are rated for different applications. If anyone intends to use them to construct fire poi, I would recommend that one ascertain their load capacity before doing so.
One can find high capacity split rings from stores that sell saltwater fishing tackle.
Delete
Posted:loading problems aside, it still dosnt help the other problems of split rings, i.e. it is essentially an open gate, held together by a spring. Climbers use scew gates on all conections that dont require speed, so why shouldent we when its not just our sefty but that of the auidence too? The problems of split rings apply even on practice poi.
T
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Posted:the heavy duty spring steel key rings usually endure fine. but (and forgive me if someone already said this) if you are using ball chain, then you don't need swivels.
as for the 120 lb test weight swivels - they will probably fail before the heaviest duty key rings will - especially if they are anywhere close to the fire.
but someone mentioned quick links. if you ask me, ballchain and quick links are by far the best way to go. just remember that ball chain does fatigue and you should replace it with fresh ball chain every so often.
as for the 120 lb test weight swivels - they will probably fail before the heaviest duty key rings will - especially if they are anywhere close to the fire.
but someone mentioned quick links. if you ask me, ballchain and quick links are by far the best way to go. just remember that ball chain does fatigue and you should replace it with fresh ball chain every so often.
-v-
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Bird
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
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Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
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GOLD Member since Aug 2003
now available in "advanced"
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Total posts: 6086
Posted:I had a split ring break on me at a spin on the beach, luckily, it went away from the crowd (dykeBoy's gran, if memory serves)
I have now replaced them with quicklinks and, if anything, they feel better to spin with, although, this could be down to my knowing that they are screwed shut! There is certainly no adverse effect in using quicklinks instead of splitrings.
Hope this helps.
I have now replaced them with quicklinks and, if anything, they feel better to spin with, although, this could be down to my knowing that they are screwed shut! There is certainly no adverse effect in using quicklinks instead of splitrings.
Hope this helps.
My state of mind is not yours to define!
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
Posted:okay, im going to redo my poi.. i just picked up my keys and if i twisted the keys in opposite directions, the keyring would bend..
not so cool.
so anyway, im thinking of getting a swivel (Im going to try and find something like HOP sells at home depot), and then get that heavy duty wire that i was using. Then put the swivel into the wire, and then make a loop in the wire, and use a cable ferrule to make that loop permanent.. then attach grips, and a quick link at the bottom for the wick. Im trying to find quicklinks in the shape of a triangle for my grips, hopefully i can find that at HD also. Oh, is one swivel enough? or should i have one at each end?
Thanks guys.
not so cool.
so anyway, im thinking of getting a swivel (Im going to try and find something like HOP sells at home depot), and then get that heavy duty wire that i was using. Then put the swivel into the wire, and then make a loop in the wire, and use a cable ferrule to make that loop permanent.. then attach grips, and a quick link at the bottom for the wick. Im trying to find quicklinks in the shape of a triangle for my grips, hopefully i can find that at HD also. Oh, is one swivel enough? or should i have one at each end?
Thanks guys.
Delete
Matthew_Ne
SILVER Member since Dec 2002
![Matthew_Ne]()
Northeast USA Firespinner
Location: Connecticut, USA
Total posts: 122
SILVER Member since Dec 2002
Northeast USA Firespinner
Location: Connecticut, USA
Total posts: 122
Posted:Home Depot will not have swivels that are the small and compact size that HoP has. They simply do not carry them, at least in my area. The only alternative thing they have there, other than a clip/swivel combo, which is not the best solution, is a 50lb rated swivel, which is much much bigger.. and it will not hold up to the stresses of spinning. Trust me.. I've broken one. You would be much better off (and safer!) to get everything from the HoP shop. We wouldn't want to lose one of our members due to a brushfire now would we? 
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Posted:Not true actually, Climbers mainly only use locking biners on the harness, and anchors. Along those same lines doubled non-lockers in alternating directions are acceptable as well. The problem with single biners is shockloads since it can potentially 'snap' the gate and open it which once there is tension on it it wont close right, and then everything goes to hell..
But enough about climbing... Splitrings... http://www.roscoinc.com/prod_splitrings.cfm
br>
I think these things are a little bit stronger than you are thinking, I agree that they must be checked before and after spins, but I don't think it is grossly irresponsible to use them as long as they are of an appropriate size/strength. Fatigue issues come into play just as much with ballchains as they do with splitrings.
But enough about climbing... Splitrings... http://www.roscoinc.com/prod_splitrings.cfm
br>
I think these things are a little bit stronger than you are thinking, I agree that they must be checked before and after spins, but I don't think it is grossly irresponsible to use them as long as they are of an appropriate size/strength. Fatigue issues come into play just as much with ballchains as they do with splitrings.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Posted:Heath: In just reading this thread, there's already been instances of failed split rings. I'm making a gross generalization about split rings failing because I've heard dozens and dozens of stories of split rings failing and causing extremely dangerous situations. I've been hit in the neck by a fire poi head that came loose off of a split ring with a supposed weight load of 450 lbs on a 180g fire head. I've done my research and have found the weight load on a split ring is GREATLY reduced by the introduction of heat. I've had a split ring that you recommend people buy fail on my own poi. It's simply not worth the risk, no matter how strong or safe you claim them to be.
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Posted:I don't use them myself, but I don't think it's right to condemn something that *could* be used safely. As I said before ball chains have been known to fail to, but do people condemn those? Not usually.
I'm not advising people to use them, I'm not saying they are better than anything. Personally I agree with you and I don't trust them, but that doesn't mean they cannot be used with a bit of common sense. If you are that concerned you might as well weld your poi on solid. Everything will break at a point, its knowing that point and knowing how to use them safely that will make or break them.
I'm not advising people to use them, I'm not saying they are better than anything. Personally I agree with you and I don't trust them, but that doesn't mean they cannot be used with a bit of common sense. If you are that concerned you might as well weld your poi on solid. Everything will break at a point, its knowing that point and knowing how to use them safely that will make or break them.
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Posted:I said what I said because it's safest for the fire spinning community to have people use tried and true methods to spin fire. Yes, using a split ring COULD in fact be safe under the right conditions, but the chances of someone getting all of these conditions right is so small that it's a better idea to just strongly recommend to people they use something proven safer.
I agree with you that I made a gross generalization, but I did it on purpose. For every 1 person that uses a split ring successfully there will be 5 people that use it unsuccessfully (yes, I pulled that number out of my ass, but you get the point). Statistically, it is better for the community for people to use methods that statistically safer, as if one person in the US messes up (As seen in the nightclub disaster), nationally or possibly even globally, the rest of us will feel the effects. I'd rather have someone spend the extra 4 dollars on a quick link than make the rest of us spend 4,000 dollars a year on insurance.
I agree with you that I made a gross generalization, but I did it on purpose. For every 1 person that uses a split ring successfully there will be 5 people that use it unsuccessfully (yes, I pulled that number out of my ass, but you get the point). Statistically, it is better for the community for people to use methods that statistically safer, as if one person in the US messes up (As seen in the nightclub disaster), nationally or possibly even globally, the rest of us will feel the effects. I'd rather have someone spend the extra 4 dollars on a quick link than make the rest of us spend 4,000 dollars a year on insurance.
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Posted:Alright, I'll agree with you since we're both argueing the same point just slightly differently I believe. 
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Posted:Quote:
Not true actually, Climbers mainly only use locking biners on the harness, and anchors. Along those same lines doubled non-lockers in alternating directions are acceptable as well. The problem with single biners is shockloads since it can potentially 'snap' the gate and open it which once there is tension on it it wont close right, and then everything goes to hell..
umm, I think I said "on all connections not requiring speed" and thoes connections are harness, anchor, belay. and its not just shock loading, its also the possiblity of being opened by contact with a rock/branch/rope.
but enough about climbing.
what mill said is right, because split rings are a spring, heat de-stresses the spring, making it open.
T
Not true actually, Climbers mainly only use locking biners on the harness, and anchors. Along those same lines doubled non-lockers in alternating directions are acceptable as well. The problem with single biners is shockloads since it can potentially 'snap' the gate and open it which once there is tension on it it wont close right, and then everything goes to hell..
umm, I think I said "on all connections not requiring speed" and thoes connections are harness, anchor, belay. and its not just shock loading, its also the possiblity of being opened by contact with a rock/branch/rope.
but enough about climbing.
what mill said is right, because split rings are a spring, heat de-stresses the spring, making it open.
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Posted:In all honesty, I think there is nothing at all wrong with using a split ring on the handle end as long as it is rated for the stress. I DO NOT think they are good enough for the wick end though! Heat changes everything. It has to be more secure than that for me.
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Bird
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
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Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
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Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Total posts: 6086
Posted:It was one of the ones on the handle end that broke on mine!!
The wick end had quicklink fixings on.
The wick end had quicklink fixings on.
My state of mind is not yours to define!
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
Posted:quicklinks are mechanically stronger as they are basicly a hoop of metal without a join. Once the screw bit is tight they cant flex or stretch like keyrings/split-rings. Then you have to worry about the rest of the chain. There was a post a while ago about ball chains breaking, anybody know the conclusion?
Wizard of LED poi !
DeleteDunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003
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Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...
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GOLD Member since Aug 2003
playing the days away
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Posted:erm that could have been me....Reading festival.....firey comet.....a tent....you know the rest!
Nothing major happened cuz we weren't drunk or anything so were quick enough to react immediately and little damage occured in the end.
Learnt my lesson good and proper though and now I fully check each part of my chain ,loops and handles every time I spin.
Nothing major happened cuz we weren't drunk or anything so were quick enough to react immediately and little damage occured in the end.
Learnt my lesson good and proper though and now I fully check each part of my chain ,loops and handles every time I spin.
Let's relight this forum 
Posted:Anyone know anything about the oval split rings? They appear to be much stronger, and they are 'self-centering.'
http://www.worthco.com/fish/x2rings.html
http://www.worthco.com/fish/x2rings.html
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DarkFyre
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005
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HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Total posts: 1965
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Total posts: 1965
Posted:For my two cents worth I'd say quick links and ball chain or if you don't like ball chain then normal chain with small industrial swivels that can be found in most large DIY stores (usually within a meter or two of the quick links)
May my balls of fire set your balls on fire 
Posted:My first firepoi were bought from concentrate and used a keyring in the handle.
On a couple of occasions, I found the ring working it's way off the strapping.
They now use HOP leather double loop handles with quicklinks
On a couple of occasions, I found the ring working it's way off the strapping.
They now use HOP leather double loop handles with quicklinks
Delete
Posted:Hello,
I was just cruising around (haven't done so in a while, last post was 2005?!), came across this thread, and thought I would contribute, since there are a few of my favorite topics that were touched upon.
1. Split rings
1a. Someone said something about the split ring near the handle not receiving as much force as the one near the head, and you should be ok with one there. Granted, your linear velocity is lower, but the same centripetal force is being exerted on the system. Long story short, some really brief calculations show that you should see roughly equal wear, except that heat may speed up the process on the outer split ring
1b. I am not against split rings, but you should only get load-rated split rings, I have 150-lb test rings that have become deformed on a set of practice poi. Next batch will be 200-300 lb. From an end-user point of view, the initial split rings were ok. I monitored them closely, and stopped using them when they were deformed. From a manufacturer's point of view, I wouldn't want to take that chance.
2. I prefer quicklinks (Mehmet, i use swivels like you describe, but with quicklinks instead of split rings). They are cheap and will last longer than you will, if you don't damage the threads. You can get them here, and many other places. Go for the 3.0 mm ones if you need something slimmer/lighter.
3. Some of the smaller and lighter chains do not fit quicklinks, which is why I am experimenting with heavy duty split rings. I have been using ball chain since I began, but would like to be able to offer people alternatives that are still attractive. I have had customers break #13 ball chain, though I don't think I have had any other reports of breakage of chain i've distributed.
Long story short, use load-rated materials, and consider materials that are easy to inspect (can you see inside the ball of your ball chain?).
Matthew
Flamma Aeterna
I was just cruising around (haven't done so in a while, last post was 2005?!), came across this thread, and thought I would contribute, since there are a few of my favorite topics that were touched upon.
1. Split rings
1a. Someone said something about the split ring near the handle not receiving as much force as the one near the head, and you should be ok with one there. Granted, your linear velocity is lower, but the same centripetal force is being exerted on the system. Long story short, some really brief calculations show that you should see roughly equal wear, except that heat may speed up the process on the outer split ring
1b. I am not against split rings, but you should only get load-rated split rings, I have 150-lb test rings that have become deformed on a set of practice poi. Next batch will be 200-300 lb. From an end-user point of view, the initial split rings were ok. I monitored them closely, and stopped using them when they were deformed. From a manufacturer's point of view, I wouldn't want to take that chance.
2. I prefer quicklinks (Mehmet, i use swivels like you describe, but with quicklinks instead of split rings). They are cheap and will last longer than you will, if you don't damage the threads. You can get them here, and many other places. Go for the 3.0 mm ones if you need something slimmer/lighter.
3. Some of the smaller and lighter chains do not fit quicklinks, which is why I am experimenting with heavy duty split rings. I have been using ball chain since I began, but would like to be able to offer people alternatives that are still attractive. I have had customers break #13 ball chain, though I don't think I have had any other reports of breakage of chain i've distributed.
Long story short, use load-rated materials, and consider materials that are easy to inspect (can you see inside the ball of your ball chain?).
Matthew
Flamma Aeterna
That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.
DeletePosted:how about soldered or welded solid stainless steel rings (one piece)?? Guess the swivels will wear faster than the rings...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
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