Forums > Social Discussion > So, will it all be justified?
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310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
As someone who deeply opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find that there is one pro-war argument in particular that is difficult to answer. It has been mentioned in the other war threads, but never properly discussed - we always seem to get sidelined by debating individual incidents, the truth about which no-one knows.
I tend to assume that the US/UK motives for engaging in this war were entirely self-serving and immoral, but for the purposes of this debate their motivations, I think, are irrelevant. The argument I always find it difficult to answer is this:
If, in five years time, the people of Iraq are significantly better off than they would have been under Saddam, will the war not have been justified?
This argument avoids questions of motivation, the existance of WMDs.. all the lies and rhetoric our glorious leaders espoused to talk us into this thing.
(should note that I consider those arguments to have been completely proved to be spurious -
even if there were WMDs we obviously had no idea whether they still existed, though of course we knew they were there in the first place because we sold them to him;
we are allied with and supporting regimes guilty of far worse atrocities;
both the CIA and the foreign service advised their respective governments that the post-war chaos in Iraq would reduce stability in the area rather than increase it;
no connection between Saddam and Al Qaida has ever been demonstrated)
Comes back to the question of whether you can do a good thing for bad reasons, I suppose. We could debate endlessly whether the Iraqi people or the world at large are actually better off for the change... but let's face it, none of us really know what we're talking about. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that in five years the Iraqi people and the world at large are going to be better off for this war (quite an assumption - it grates with me as well). Was it justified?
As someone who deeply opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find that there is one pro-war argument in particular that is difficult to answer. It has been mentioned in the other war threads, but never properly discussed - we always seem to get sidelined by debating individual incidents, the truth about which no-one knows.
I tend to assume that the US/UK motives for engaging in this war were entirely self-serving and immoral, but for the purposes of this debate their motivations, I think, are irrelevant. The argument I always find it difficult to answer is this:
If, in five years time, the people of Iraq are significantly better off than they would have been under Saddam, will the war not have been justified?
This argument avoids questions of motivation, the existance of WMDs.. all the lies and rhetoric our glorious leaders espoused to talk us into this thing.
(should note that I consider those arguments to have been completely proved to be spurious -
even if there were WMDs we obviously had no idea whether they still existed, though of course we knew they were there in the first place because we sold them to him;
we are allied with and supporting regimes guilty of far worse atrocities;
both the CIA and the foreign service advised their respective governments that the post-war chaos in Iraq would reduce stability in the area rather than increase it;
no connection between Saddam and Al Qaida has ever been demonstrated)
Comes back to the question of whether you can do a good thing for bad reasons, I suppose. We could debate endlessly whether the Iraqi people or the world at large are actually better off for the change... but let's face it, none of us really know what we're talking about. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that in five years the Iraqi people and the world at large are going to be better off for this war (quite an assumption - it grates with me as well). Was it justified?
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
If a child is hungry but the only thing to eat is the last of an endangerd species would it be justified to kill the animal and feed the child?
If world peace would come at the cost of an innocents life, would it be worth it?
If you had the oprotunity to end all suffering on the planet would you take it no matter the cost?
Not all of these questions can truly apply to the Iraq situation, but I for one am a firm believer in "The end justifies the means."
Take it at face value folks, dont read too deep into it.
If a child is hungry but the only thing to eat is the last of an endangerd species would it be justified to kill the animal and feed the child?
If world peace would come at the cost of an innocents life, would it be worth it?
If you had the oprotunity to end all suffering on the planet would you take it no matter the cost?
Not all of these questions can truly apply to the Iraq situation, but I for one am a firm believer in "The end justifies the means."
Take it at face value folks, dont read too deep into it.
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Some ends justifies some means.
Remember when stalin killed 20 million people because the ends justifies the means? what about hitler? What about locking up mental patients and poor people and cutting off their balls just a few decades ago.
What about the massacare of the indians? They were massacareing us first, they were pretty damn scary and threatening.
All those things were done with "the end justifies the means" methodology.
[censored] the end justifies the means, it's done almost nothing for the human race, or the planet.
Some ends justifies some means.
Remember when stalin killed 20 million people because the ends justifies the means? what about hitler? What about locking up mental patients and poor people and cutting off their balls just a few decades ago.
What about the massacare of the indians? They were massacareing us first, they were pretty damn scary and threatening.
All those things were done with "the end justifies the means" methodology.
[censored] the end justifies the means, it's done almost nothing for the human race, or the planet.
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
Well... it doesnt matter if you like it or not, thats my opinion
Well... it doesnt matter if you like it or not, thats my opinion
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
Posted:
Good things happen all the time, even in the most unexpected places. Iraq quite likely will be better off in five years, but we've got to remember the reasons that Iraq was in such a bad state. Of course Sadam was bad, but the country had been ravaged by war and sanctions (thanks to the u.s. of course). So now that the thugs in washington have actually taken over Iraq the sanctions will not as damaging in the years to come.
So, no the war will never be justified because it was an unjust war. I do hope that the situation gets better for all Iraqis though.
How about an example:
There was a despicable man that sometimes beat his wife and children. His neighbor did not like the way the man treated his family so he harassed the man and the family for twelve years. The man was not allowed to bring groceries home to the family that he was so abusive to. This kind of harassment, of course, did nothing to make the situation better. After twelve years of harassment the neighbor decided to end the problem so he made a bomb and blew up the family's housey's house, killing the man and a couple of the kids. Afterwards the rest of the neighbors get together and help rebuild the house for the woman and her remaining children. Five years later they are doing fine, a newer, nicer house and no abusive husband. Was the neighbor jusitfied in his actions? No, of course not because it was completely the wrong way to deal with the situation.
Good things happen all the time, even in the most unexpected places. Iraq quite likely will be better off in five years, but we've got to remember the reasons that Iraq was in such a bad state. Of course Sadam was bad, but the country had been ravaged by war and sanctions (thanks to the u.s. of course). So now that the thugs in washington have actually taken over Iraq the sanctions will not as damaging in the years to come.
So, no the war will never be justified because it was an unjust war. I do hope that the situation gets better for all Iraqis though.
How about an example:
There was a despicable man that sometimes beat his wife and children. His neighbor did not like the way the man treated his family so he harassed the man and the family for twelve years. The man was not allowed to bring groceries home to the family that he was so abusive to. This kind of harassment, of course, did nothing to make the situation better. After twelve years of harassment the neighbor decided to end the problem so he made a bomb and blew up the family's housey's house, killing the man and a couple of the kids. Afterwards the rest of the neighbors get together and help rebuild the house for the woman and her remaining children. Five years later they are doing fine, a newer, nicer house and no abusive husband. Was the neighbor jusitfied in his actions? No, of course not because it was completely the wrong way to deal with the situation.
member
31 posts
Location: Taiwan
31 posts
Location: Taiwan
Posted:
Nice example!!
I might add though that the neighbor owned the building company and refused to let any other contractors bid on the rebuilding work unless they helped build the bomb.
Quote:
There was a despicable man that sometimes beat his wife and children. His neighbor did not like the way the man treated his family so he harassed the man and the family for twelve years. The man was not allowed to bring groceries home to the family that he was so abusive to. This kind of harassment, of course, did nothing to make the situation better. After twelve years of harassment the neighbor decided to end the problem so he made a bomb and blew up the family's housey's house, killing the man and a couple of the kids. Afterwards the rest of the neighbors get together and help rebuild the house for the woman and her remaining children. Five years later they are doing fine, a newer, nicer house and no abusive husband. Was the neighbor jusitfied in his actions? No, of course not because it was completely the wrong way to deal with the situation.
Nice example!!
I might add though that the neighbor owned the building company and refused to let any other contractors bid on the rebuilding work unless they helped build the bomb.
mULti-torTOISe
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
That is, indeed, a superb example. You could also add that the neighbour equipped the man to abuse his wife in the first place, and encouraged him when he first began. And that after they had built the new house, the neighbour felt completely justified in wandering around to 'borrow' whatever he felt like from the larder... and telling the kids what to do... and using the whole thing as an example of what a wonderful, beautiful person he was...
That is, indeed, a superb example. You could also add that the neighbour equipped the man to abuse his wife in the first place, and encouraged him when he first began. And that after they had built the new house, the neighbour felt completely justified in wandering around to 'borrow' whatever he felt like from the larder... and telling the kids what to do... and using the whole thing as an example of what a wonderful, beautiful person he was...
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Lets also consider the man who did the bombing is currently best friends with several other abusive men who are much worse then the one he blew up.
Lets also consider the man who did the bombing is currently best friends with several other abusive men who are much worse then the one he blew up.
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
Wait, that isnt a very good example, though it is close.
This is how the story should have read:
There was a despicable man who attacked and murderd one of his neighbors trying to take over that mans family and fortune. When the neighbor called for help, another neighbor along with the rest of the city came to the firsts aid. After the wrong was righted as best as possible, the man was restricted to his house. The man was not allowed to bring home weapons nor materials that could be harmful to others. After the restrictions were in place, the man turned on his own family beating them and even killing his own children as a form of punishment for loosing a soccer game! After a time the man had friends that decided to get even with the neighbors that came to first's aid. So they devised a plan that would hurt, mainly the good neighbor, but would also offend many in the city. After the man's friends were delt with, the anger of the neighbor and the a few members of the city was turned against the man. They knew that he had brought restricted items into his house and of his actions against his family. So when they went to deal with the man, and throw him out of his house the man hid in his basement hiding under a sespool. Even though the man did terrible things the second neighbor found him and gave him the needed medical care someone would need after hiding in a sespool. Even though he was treated well, some in the city did not like what the neighbor did, so they devised a place that they couuld all come and complain without knowing hardly any facts though they held what little they knew as gospel truth.
And that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
Wait, that isnt a very good example, though it is close.
This is how the story should have read:
There was a despicable man who attacked and murderd one of his neighbors trying to take over that mans family and fortune. When the neighbor called for help, another neighbor along with the rest of the city came to the firsts aid. After the wrong was righted as best as possible, the man was restricted to his house. The man was not allowed to bring home weapons nor materials that could be harmful to others. After the restrictions were in place, the man turned on his own family beating them and even killing his own children as a form of punishment for loosing a soccer game! After a time the man had friends that decided to get even with the neighbors that came to first's aid. So they devised a plan that would hurt, mainly the good neighbor, but would also offend many in the city. After the man's friends were delt with, the anger of the neighbor and the a few members of the city was turned against the man. They knew that he had brought restricted items into his house and of his actions against his family. So when they went to deal with the man, and throw him out of his house the man hid in his basement hiding under a sespool. Even though the man did terrible things the second neighbor found him and gave him the needed medical care someone would need after hiding in a sespool. Even though he was treated well, some in the city did not like what the neighbor did, so they devised a place that they couuld all come and complain without knowing hardly any facts though they held what little they knew as gospel truth.
And that's the way the cookie crumbles.
mULti-torTOISe
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
No, you're right Laytin, the US is a shining entity of beauty and light, sending its noble hearted soldiers to serve the causes of liberty and world peace, with no thought to its own benefit...
I know I'm being sarcastic, but doesn't that sound absolutely absurd? Even to you?
"the good neighbor" - do you have any idea of how despised the US is in most of the world? Do you know why? It's not jealousy, or fanaticism, or a delusion.
My parents travelled as I grew up, so I have spent almost my entire life overseas in one place or another, and I have also spent six months in the states - I met a lot of wonderful people, but very, very few of them knew what was going on the world. I was asked if I had driven across from Britain, and if Saudi Arabia "was where Hitler lived". Prior to the first Gulf War, Iraq had one of the best education systems in the world - people on the wasted streets of Baghdad express sophisticated, educated opinions on world affairs. People don't hate the US because it's big, or rich... not even because it causes over 50% of world pollution, or because it accounts for over a third of annual resource consumption... the people of the world can see with clear eyes what you have blinded yourself to, Laytin.
Your example is flawed at almost every stage, you know. It should start out with the US supporting Saddam, and selling him weapons. The majority of the atrocities he committed against his own people were executed during the period that the US and GB were still actively supporting him - Rumsfeld met Saddam in Baghdad after the Maghdeen massacre. There has been no link proved between Saddam and Al Qaida, unless it's happened in the last two days (I've been out of touch for a bit) - are we just assuming things now? Why did the invasion really take place? It had nothing to do with the attack on Kuwait...
And you still haven't replied to the point about the US supporting the regime in Uzbekistan - $160 million in aid to the security forces, who boil political prisoners alive, in case you've forgotten.
I increasingly feel that YOU'RE the one who hasn't got your facts straight, and that you're not really bothering to put the effort in to verify ours.
Short of being there, and of course I thank whatever powers there are that I didn't have to be, I think I have about as good a knowledge of what happened as I'm going to get. Why do you keep trying to say that I don't know what I'm talking about? Is it just because I disagree with you? I am citing examples wherever possible to support my opinion, and your best reply seems to be to say "well, that example could be wrong."
I agree, the metaphor above was skewed, but it really does tally with the (proven) facts at every count - point out one thing that is actually wrong , as opposed to just biased toward an anti-war point of view, and we'll have grounds for debate. Shall I tell you where yours is wrong?
Looking forward to your dissection of our example.
No, you're right Laytin, the US is a shining entity of beauty and light, sending its noble hearted soldiers to serve the causes of liberty and world peace, with no thought to its own benefit...
I know I'm being sarcastic, but doesn't that sound absolutely absurd? Even to you?
"the good neighbor" - do you have any idea of how despised the US is in most of the world? Do you know why? It's not jealousy, or fanaticism, or a delusion.
My parents travelled as I grew up, so I have spent almost my entire life overseas in one place or another, and I have also spent six months in the states - I met a lot of wonderful people, but very, very few of them knew what was going on the world. I was asked if I had driven across from Britain, and if Saudi Arabia "was where Hitler lived". Prior to the first Gulf War, Iraq had one of the best education systems in the world - people on the wasted streets of Baghdad express sophisticated, educated opinions on world affairs. People don't hate the US because it's big, or rich... not even because it causes over 50% of world pollution, or because it accounts for over a third of annual resource consumption... the people of the world can see with clear eyes what you have blinded yourself to, Laytin.
Your example is flawed at almost every stage, you know. It should start out with the US supporting Saddam, and selling him weapons. The majority of the atrocities he committed against his own people were executed during the period that the US and GB were still actively supporting him - Rumsfeld met Saddam in Baghdad after the Maghdeen massacre. There has been no link proved between Saddam and Al Qaida, unless it's happened in the last two days (I've been out of touch for a bit) - are we just assuming things now? Why did the invasion really take place? It had nothing to do with the attack on Kuwait...
And you still haven't replied to the point about the US supporting the regime in Uzbekistan - $160 million in aid to the security forces, who boil political prisoners alive, in case you've forgotten.
I increasingly feel that YOU'RE the one who hasn't got your facts straight, and that you're not really bothering to put the effort in to verify ours.
Short of being there, and of course I thank whatever powers there are that I didn't have to be, I think I have about as good a knowledge of what happened as I'm going to get. Why do you keep trying to say that I don't know what I'm talking about? Is it just because I disagree with you? I am citing examples wherever possible to support my opinion, and your best reply seems to be to say "well, that example could be wrong."
I agree, the metaphor above was skewed, but it really does tally with the (proven) facts at every count - point out one thing that is actually wrong , as opposed to just biased toward an anti-war point of view, and we'll have grounds for debate. Shall I tell you where yours is wrong?
Quote:True, but carries the wrong implication - he was also not allowed to bring in food, medical supplies and equipment, textbooks for children, building materials for classrooms... until the fuel price went up and we needed his oil... and the food for fuel program began
The man was not allowed to bring home weapons nor materials that could be harmful to others.
Quote:As stated above, this isn't true, the man was abusing his family long before, whilst the "good neighbour" was still selling him guns, missiles, planes, bombs...
After the restrictions were in place, the man turned on his own family...
Quote:Maybe I've missed a "confession" from Saddam in the last couple of days. The last I heard, there was no proof of any connection whatsoever.
After a time the man had friends that decided to get even with the neighbors that came to first's aid.
Quote:Are you joking? Surely this should read: after a campaign of slaughter through proxy conducted against the most visible of the man's supposed friends, it transpired that animosity toward the "good neighbour" had been raised to a fever pitch... in addition, the instability caused by the campaign had created a situation in which endemic violence and absolute poverty were perfect breeding grounds for future attacks on the "good neighbour"
After the man's friends were delt with
Quote:Turns out they didn't really know anything, unless you're talking about the stuff he brought into his house twelve years ago, which we know he had. Because we sold it to him. Besides which, have you not heard about the "eleventh hour" offer Saddam made - free access to weapons inspectors, limited US occupation... funny that our beloved and honourable leaders kept it so closely under wraps for as long as possible...
They knew that he had brought restricted items into his house...
Quote:which they'd known about for years, and turned a blind eye to, as stated above. Besides which, this is where the thing about Uzbekistan is relevant again - see above.
...and of his actions against his family
Quote:Again, see above. Why do you assume that just because we don't agree with you, we don't know what we're talking about? Have you considered the possibility that you are just misled, and we are actually right? Do you think that the vast majority of the population of the world, who were passionately against the war (for example, Britain was an enthusiastic participant, but a majority of British people opposed the war) are all just reading the wrong newspapers? Or do you think that they may have a point? I urge you strongly, think hard about this. I have.
...without knowing hardly any facts though they held what little they knew as gospel truth.
Looking forward to your dissection of our example.
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
Well... Why is the sky blue and the grass green, why do leaves turn differnt colors when fall comes? Who set the seasons in motion? Is there anything else you would like for me to explain?
You can find a stupid person anywhere, your examples of the people you met are hardly the norm, though I do love how you try to group all Americans in to one catagory.
You know, I traveld alot as a child as well, the only contenents I have left to vist is Africa and Antartica. I have been to many Pacific islands and several countries in Europe. I even lived (not viseted) in England for a little while. I met some of the most racial people while on my travels. I have been pushed into buildings by police who are saving my butt from a mob who hates Americans so much that they would literally kill a family just to exact some form of revenge for whatever they felt.
Please I know no more about you than you truly know of me, let us both try not to assume that we know eachother. I know I have in the past and I will try to avoid it in the future if you will join me and do the same.
Yes the US sold Iraq weapons, do you know why? Well... Iran the big country to the East, was beating the tar out of Iraq. Nothing was illeagle about this, nor should it be shamed, because at that point of time the US was helping the attacked, just like Kuwait years later.
While there is no direct link, nor do I believe that they will prove one without Saddam's confession. There is no doubt in anyones mind that Iraq has squanderd itself into a country that has done little to nothing to prevent terrorists from comming across.
Forgive me for not commenting on Uzbeckistan, I do believe I missed it. Here let me comment on it now for you. Nobody is perfect. There happy? I dont know why or even if the US supports Uzbeckistan, nor do I Laytin, personally care. If you still wish for me to comment further please feel free to PM me.
Let me rephrase my statments about people not knowing what they are talking about, When it comes to the military someone who has not studied beit hobby or class, that person does not know what they are talking about.
The people of Iraq, were allowed to bring in some food, some medicine as far as text books, I dont know. They were strictly guarded on what they could spend their oil money on. If I remember correctly there being an oil for food type get up set up by the UN.
Let us all not forget that if Saddam had not attacked Kuwait, those sanctions WOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED!!!!
You are right, before sanctions were implaced, Saddam was one to abuse his people. Why the US and others didnt act then? I dont know I was 9 at the time. Why dont you ask your perfect government?
Afganistan isnt finished yet, it just isnt in the news too much. They atleast have a working government and are in the process of rebuilding what they can from their lost heritage.
[Edit the computer decided to work ]
As stated befor, I dont know nor do I care what is happening in Uzbeckistan, find a bleeding heart to complain to. As long as people come to my bar to drink, I'll read it in my history books.
I do not assume that you dont know anything because we disagree, I am stating fact, that you do not know enough (the same with me) to say anything as 100% fullproof fact.
Those that didnt support the US lead war in Iraq, I dont feel are too bright. They knew that Saddam needed to be removed from power (and coincidently the 11th hour proposal didnt inlcude this) and though many felt that there was another way to do this, in the end, war was the only way. Though entitled to their opinion, opinoins can be wrong. Saddam couldnt be talked down. Some in the world didnt agree, but those who matterd did and those that matterd acted. There are several wars that I dont agree with my opinion on those really dont matter.
Have you ever seen a cat in a tree? Have you ever seen one that was having too much fun to be called down? Sometimes you need to get the fire department to get the cat out of the tree.
Thats all the dissecting you will get out of me, I prefer history, not biology
EDITED_BY: Laytin (1072130147)
Well... Why is the sky blue and the grass green, why do leaves turn differnt colors when fall comes? Who set the seasons in motion? Is there anything else you would like for me to explain?
You can find a stupid person anywhere, your examples of the people you met are hardly the norm, though I do love how you try to group all Americans in to one catagory.
You know, I traveld alot as a child as well, the only contenents I have left to vist is Africa and Antartica. I have been to many Pacific islands and several countries in Europe. I even lived (not viseted) in England for a little while. I met some of the most racial people while on my travels. I have been pushed into buildings by police who are saving my butt from a mob who hates Americans so much that they would literally kill a family just to exact some form of revenge for whatever they felt.
Please I know no more about you than you truly know of me, let us both try not to assume that we know eachother. I know I have in the past and I will try to avoid it in the future if you will join me and do the same.
Yes the US sold Iraq weapons, do you know why? Well... Iran the big country to the East, was beating the tar out of Iraq. Nothing was illeagle about this, nor should it be shamed, because at that point of time the US was helping the attacked, just like Kuwait years later.
While there is no direct link, nor do I believe that they will prove one without Saddam's confession. There is no doubt in anyones mind that Iraq has squanderd itself into a country that has done little to nothing to prevent terrorists from comming across.
Forgive me for not commenting on Uzbeckistan, I do believe I missed it. Here let me comment on it now for you. Nobody is perfect. There happy? I dont know why or even if the US supports Uzbeckistan, nor do I Laytin, personally care. If you still wish for me to comment further please feel free to PM me.
Let me rephrase my statments about people not knowing what they are talking about, When it comes to the military someone who has not studied beit hobby or class, that person does not know what they are talking about.
The people of Iraq, were allowed to bring in some food, some medicine as far as text books, I dont know. They were strictly guarded on what they could spend their oil money on. If I remember correctly there being an oil for food type get up set up by the UN.
Let us all not forget that if Saddam had not attacked Kuwait, those sanctions WOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED!!!!
You are right, before sanctions were implaced, Saddam was one to abuse his people. Why the US and others didnt act then? I dont know I was 9 at the time. Why dont you ask your perfect government?
Afganistan isnt finished yet, it just isnt in the news too much. They atleast have a working government and are in the process of rebuilding what they can from their lost heritage.
[Edit the computer decided to work
]As stated befor, I dont know nor do I care what is happening in Uzbeckistan, find a bleeding heart to complain to. As long as people come to my bar to drink, I'll read it in my history books.
I do not assume that you dont know anything because we disagree, I am stating fact, that you do not know enough (the same with me) to say anything as 100% fullproof fact.
Those that didnt support the US lead war in Iraq, I dont feel are too bright. They knew that Saddam needed to be removed from power (and coincidently the 11th hour proposal didnt inlcude this) and though many felt that there was another way to do this, in the end, war was the only way. Though entitled to their opinion, opinoins can be wrong. Saddam couldnt be talked down. Some in the world didnt agree, but those who matterd did and those that matterd acted. There are several wars that I dont agree with my opinion on those really dont matter.
Have you ever seen a cat in a tree? Have you ever seen one that was having too much fun to be called down? Sometimes you need to get the fire department to get the cat out of the tree.
Thats all the dissecting you will get out of me, I prefer history, not biology
EDITED_BY: Laytin (1072130147)
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Funny, the US had it's entire coalition formed aside from a few finnancial supporters before the mandate of removing saddam from power had even been introduced.
You seem to have a bit of a hard time with chronology. The initial sanctions were more akin to siege tactics, they did disallow food and textbooks and medicine. Then after a few years of starving people, the UN raising the tragic results of the sanctions repeatedly but being ignored by the US, the US decided to grow a heart and support the food for oil program and loosen the sanctions some. There is a very close correalation with the fuel prices going up and the US needing their oil. But correalation doesn't always equal cause. I believe there probably is a relation there but im sure you don't.
Funny, the US had it's entire coalition formed aside from a few finnancial supporters before the mandate of removing saddam from power had even been introduced.
You seem to have a bit of a hard time with chronology. The initial sanctions were more akin to siege tactics, they did disallow food and textbooks and medicine. Then after a few years of starving people, the UN raising the tragic results of the sanctions repeatedly but being ignored by the US, the US decided to grow a heart and support the food for oil program and loosen the sanctions some. There is a very close correalation with the fuel prices going up and the US needing their oil. But correalation doesn't always equal cause. I believe there probably is a relation there but im sure you don't.
mULti-torTOISe
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
Laytin, I'm afraid that this is going to be a really quick reply as I have to dash out - your comments deserve a better effort than this is going to be. However, one thing in particular stands out - the comment that
I am not expecting you to care about Uzbekistan. With all the terrible things that are being perpatrated in the world today, it can be hard to find the extra compassion to care about some new atrocity. The example is only relevant in that it demonstrates the paucity of any claim that involvment in Iraq stemmed from a loving care for the Iraqi civilians.
Gr. Now I want to carry on... will get back to you about the rest...
Oh, the sky is blue due to refraction of light on particles in the clouds, grass is green because of the chlorophyll (probably spelt that wrong) needed for photosynthesis, leaves turn different colours in fall as they become dessicated due to no longer receiving nutrient supply, and whoever set the seasons in motion initially, they happen 'cause the world spins on an uneven axis.
Laytin, I'm afraid that this is going to be a really quick reply as I have to dash out - your comments deserve a better effort than this is going to be. However, one thing in particular stands out - the comment that
Quote:- Many didn't feel that the benefit of removing Saddam from power was worth the huge price paid in the lives of Iraqi civilians. This is debatable, and was in fact the main theme of this thread. However, this is where the thing about Uzbekistan is really relevant - why did Saddam need to be removed from power when we are supporting regimes who do worse?
Those that didnt support the US lead war in Iraq, I dont feel are too bright. They knew that Saddam needed to be removed from power (and coincidently the 11th hour proposal didnt inlcude this) and though many felt that there was another way to do this, in the end, war was the only way.
I am not expecting you to care about Uzbekistan. With all the terrible things that are being perpatrated in the world today, it can be hard to find the extra compassion to care about some new atrocity. The example is only relevant in that it demonstrates the paucity of any claim that involvment in Iraq stemmed from a loving care for the Iraqi civilians.
Gr. Now I want to carry on... will get back to you about the rest...
Oh, the sky is blue due to refraction of light on particles in the clouds, grass is green because of the chlorophyll (probably spelt that wrong) needed for photosynthesis, leaves turn different colours in fall as they become dessicated due to no longer receiving nutrient supply, and whoever set the seasons in motion initially, they happen 'cause the world spins on an uneven axis.
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
It wouldnt supprise me that rising oil costs did have something to do with a US support of oil for food, however wasnt that during Clinton's administration?
Joe, I am not going answer your questions about Uzbeckistan, for the main reason that I dont know anything about it. I am also not going to answer for my government, if you really want to know, ask someone in the US government. Not a college student/bartender!
I am afraid you didnt quite answer the questions the way I wanted, let me rephrase them... why is cloropyll green, why did the sky absorbe all the light except for blue, why is it that some trees have yellows and golds while others just turn brown?
Is the color you see as green the same color I see? True we may both call it green but is it really green?
What happens when an irrisistable force meets an unmovable object?
It wouldnt supprise me that rising oil costs did have something to do with a US support of oil for food, however wasnt that during Clinton's administration?
Joe, I am not going answer your questions about Uzbeckistan, for the main reason that I dont know anything about it. I am also not going to answer for my government, if you really want to know, ask someone in the US government. Not a college student/bartender!
I am afraid you didnt quite answer the questions the way I wanted, let me rephrase them... why is cloropyll green, why did the sky absorbe all the light except for blue, why is it that some trees have yellows and golds while others just turn brown?
Is the color you see as green the same color I see? True we may both call it green but is it really green?
What happens when an irrisistable force meets an unmovable object?
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Nice attempt to put forward your "truths" as "universal truths"
Are you happy that I responded to your retarded post?
Nice attempt to put forward your "truths" as "universal truths"
Are you happy that I responded to your retarded post?
(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
Posted:
firstly astar you make me laugh
good one mate
second.. laytin please read this book
WHY DO PEOPLE HATE AMERICA by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies
it may help you to understand why you were pushed into a room by police while crazy locals were trying to kill you! dont get me wrong i know that britain aint so great either, but at least i recognise that fact .. and im sure you'd want to understand and learn why people are so aginst your country...
also see here UZBEKISTAN
a nice lil source of info there for you ..just incase you feel the need for some enlightenment on that subject ..
firstly astar you make me laugh
good one mate second.. laytin please read this book
WHY DO PEOPLE HATE AMERICA by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies
it may help you to understand why you were pushed into a room by police while crazy locals were trying to kill you! dont get me wrong i know that britain aint so great either, but at least i recognise that fact .. and im sure you'd want to understand and learn why people are so aginst your country...
also see here UZBEKISTAN
a nice lil source of info there for you ..just incase you feel the need for some enlightenment on that subject ..
she who sees from up high smiles
Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*
An angry young man with a passon for metal
252 posts
Location: Wagga Wagga, N.S.W, Australia
252 posts
Location: Wagga Wagga, N.S.W, Australia
Posted:
a war is never justifyed.
a war is never justifyed.
Fireboy
<<SINister miNISister>>
remeber kids jesus slaves
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Never? So you completly disagree with the allies actions in ww2 for they are unjustified?
Never? So you completly disagree with the allies actions in ww2 for they are unjustified?
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
Yes Astar, you replied and made my day!
Thank you kindly
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1238242.stm
Hrm, I guess it is a bad thing then that that the US gave however much to them in aid.
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3256626.stm
I take it that the US should be berated for their actions here??
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/42422.stm
I guess you should blame the US for the Uzbek human rights problems? That article goes on to list a few abuses, but the key thing is, is that the US is telling the Uzbek government to stop!
How is the US the bad guy here? Giving money to a nation that needs it more than any nation in the region. Yes that is a shame, they should stop that at once, nobody should ever give money to someone that needs it.
Yes Astar, you replied and made my day!
Thank you kindlyhttps://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1238242.stm
Quote:
The rigidity of political control is mirrored in the tightly centralized planning of the economy. Economic reform has been painfully slow to materialize. A World Bank report in the summer of 2003 found economic growth and living standards to be amongst the lowest in the former Soviet Union.
Hrm, I guess it is a bad thing then that that the US gave however much to them in aid.
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3256626.stm
I take it that the US should be berated for their actions here??
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/42422.stm
Quote:
Uzbekistan
By contrast, Human Rights Watch says the United States has been a major source of pressure on Uzbekistan, although it says the Uzbek government has not fulfilled promises it made in 1996 to improve its human rights performance.
I guess you should blame the US for the Uzbek human rights problems? That article goes on to list a few abuses, but the key thing is, is that the US is telling the Uzbek government to stop!
How is the US the bad guy here? Giving money to a nation that needs it more than any nation in the region. Yes that is a shame, they should stop that at once, nobody should ever give money to someone that needs it.
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
313 posts
Location: london,uk
313 posts
Location: london,uk
Posted:
Mr Bush's motives are questionable.He is not doing what he does to make the world a better place.No amount of quotes will convince me of that.Personally,i think the lizard theory makes the most sense.........
Mr Bush's motives are questionable.He is not doing what he does to make the world a better place.No amount of quotes will convince me of that.Personally,i think the lizard theory makes the most sense.........
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
You know, I don’t feel that the removal of Sadam was worth the price, both in lives and money, but I also feel that it HAD to be done. Right now we will never know if another way was truly possible or if Sadam could be talked out of office. I have my doubts that either could happen, because there is absolutely no evidence that would support the notion. Maybe this is a reversal on my previous statments maybe it isnt, but sometimes people change a bit here and there.
You know, I don’t feel that the removal of Sadam was worth the price, both in lives and money, but I also feel that it HAD to be done. Right now we will never know if another way was truly possible or if Sadam could be talked out of office. I have my doubts that either could happen, because there is absolutely no evidence that would support the notion. Maybe this is a reversal on my previous statments maybe it isnt, but sometimes people change a bit here and there.
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
I do agree a regime change was neccesary before saddam's death/resignment. Because chances are one his sons would have taken the reigns and they are far scarier then he is.
I do agree a regime change was neccesary before saddam's death/resignment. Because chances are one his sons would have taken the reigns and they are far scarier then he is.
member
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US
Posted:
Well... I must be honest with you all, I have over embelished on a few things.
When I said,
Looking back on the experiance I doubt that they would have killed myself or my family, but let me explain a few things.
In the late 1980's my father moved us to S. Korea for his job. During that time a US military person allegidly raped a S. Korean female. He was sent to a courtmartial and was found not guilty. There were some S. Koreans who protested and during this protest my mother and I were pushed back into the shop we had just come out of by S. Korean police. They said something to the effect of "very dangerus very angry". Would they kill us, doubtfull but after speeking with someone else on the boards here about that particuler incident and what really happend I was asked to explain everthing to the rest of the board. There is the explination, think of it what you will.
Have a good day and a happy new year 
Well... I must be honest with you all, I have over embelished on a few things.
When I said,
Quote:
I have been pushed into buildings by police who are saving my butt from a mob who hates Americans so much that they would literally kill a family just to exact some form of revenge for whatever they felt.
Looking back on the experiance I doubt that they would have killed myself or my family, but let me explain a few things.
In the late 1980's my father moved us to S. Korea for his job. During that time a US military person allegidly raped a S. Korean female. He was sent to a courtmartial and was found not guilty. There were some S. Koreans who protested and during this protest my mother and I were pushed back into the shop we had just come out of by S. Korean police. They said something to the effect of "very dangerus very angry". Would they kill us, doubtfull but after speeking with someone else on the boards here about that particuler incident and what really happend I was asked to explain everthing to the rest of the board. There is the explination, think of it what you will.
Have a good day and a happy new year
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
Posted:
Well, they were scarier anyhow..
Raph
Quote:
I do agree a regime change was neccesary before saddam's death/resignment. Because chances are one his sons would have taken the reigns and they are far scarier then he is.
Well, they were scarier anyhow..
Raph
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
true.
true.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
No way! Never! Two wrongs don’t make a right, and how would u know anyhow? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
IMHO, the people who support this "war on truth" probably would have been similar to the people who supported Hitler. There is no way you could justify the invasion, and as another car bomb explodes and we come to grips with the "new normal" sic, I can’t help reflect on how bad hang-em-high Bush stuffed-up on this one. Apart from all the human misery, and the economic cost (like the US economy is officially rooted) there is also a credibility issue. The "Mad Cow" came from Canada, yeah right.
There were much better ways to handle Saddam, but hey, that wouldn’t have been as much fun now would it???
Quote:
If, in five years time, the people of Iraq are significantly better off than they would have been under Saddam, will the war not have been justified?
No way! Never! Two wrongs don’t make a right, and how would u know anyhow? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
IMHO, the people who support this "war on truth" probably would have been similar to the people who supported Hitler. There is no way you could justify the invasion, and as another car bomb explodes and we come to grips with the "new normal" sic, I can’t help reflect on how bad hang-em-high Bush stuffed-up on this one. Apart from all the human misery, and the economic cost (like the US economy is officially rooted) there is also a credibility issue. The "Mad Cow" came from Canada, yeah right.
There were much better ways to handle Saddam, but hey, that wouldn’t have been as much fun now would it???
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
no way you can justify an invasion eh? So in ww2 the invasion of normandy was completly and utterly unjustified? We should have waited for hitler to regroup, destroy russia, then take england?
Im not comparing it to this war, but your generalized statement seems awfully flawed.
no way you can justify an invasion eh? So in ww2 the invasion of normandy was completly and utterly unjustified? We should have waited for hitler to regroup, destroy russia, then take england?
Im not comparing it to this war, but your generalized statement seems awfully flawed.
member
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
Posted:
uh Astar, he said the invasion, I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the invasion that this thread is about, not about normandy or any other invasion or war.
uh Astar, he said the invasion, I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the invasion that this thread is about, not about normandy or any other invasion or war.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Yeah I distinctly remember reading "a invasion"
Clearly gremlins are to blame.
Yeah I distinctly remember reading "a invasion"
Clearly gremlins are to blame.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
The statements are generalised, but not flawed. So just in case u missed the point. The people who support bUSh et. al., in the invasion of Iraq, would be similar to the people who supported Hitler in his campaign ie. ignorant, gullible and stupid. As far as comparisons go, u only need to look at the Patriotic Act and Guantanamo Bay, which are straight out of the fascist handbook.
The statements are generalised, but not flawed. So just in case u missed the point. The people who support bUSh et. al., in the invasion of Iraq, would be similar to the people who supported Hitler in his campaign ie. ignorant, gullible and stupid. As far as comparisons go, u only need to look at the Patriotic Act and Guantanamo Bay, which are straight out of the fascist handbook.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Hehe, well... Guantonimo Bay and the death camps of Hitler's design are far appart.
Secondly; ignorant, gullable, and stupid, three words that you really shouldn't just throw around. This is because you don't know everyone who supports "bUSh et. al., in the invasion of Iraq". I know that I am smarter than anyone here in certain fields, and I know that I am less gullable than some who may disagree with Bush and the war in Iraq, and I know that I am less ignorant as well. If you didn't catch that, reread it. I said some. Not all. So please be careful what you say Stone, it might come back to bite you in there rear, I know this for a fact and can show you the bite marks!
Theird, comparing me, to someone who supported Hitler is just about fighting words. I don't support the murder of 1,000,000+ people. To me (and I know I will get called on it) colateral damage is one thing, but holding over a million people in a camp and gassing them all in select turn are two completly differnt things. Obviusly to you and others it isn't but that is your own opinion.
If you really want to know why those men are in G-Bay just take a look at the Geniva Convention's laws of war. Bush isnt breaking the law because he has lawyers that know all the lovely loopholes and can beat the system. The men in that camp are not citizens of any country, nor are they part of any leagle army. Therefore they have very limited rights.
The Patriots Act, can easily be changed/amended/removed if the American people really want it to be. So far, not enough want it removed so there it stays.
I hope I have broken things down to a level that we can all understand it, and I hope that I have not offended anyone. If I have, please send me a PM and let me know. I will be happy to rephrase anything if needs be.
Hehe, well... Guantonimo Bay and the death camps of Hitler's design are far appart.
Secondly; ignorant, gullable, and stupid, three words that you really shouldn't just throw around. This is because you don't know everyone who supports "bUSh et. al., in the invasion of Iraq". I know that I am smarter than anyone here in certain fields, and I know that I am less gullable than some who may disagree with Bush and the war in Iraq, and I know that I am less ignorant as well. If you didn't catch that, reread it. I said some. Not all. So please be careful what you say Stone, it might come back to bite you in there rear, I know this for a fact and can show you the bite marks!
Theird, comparing me, to someone who supported Hitler is just about fighting words. I don't support the murder of 1,000,000+ people. To me (and I know I will get called on it) colateral damage is one thing, but holding over a million people in a camp and gassing them all in select turn are two completly differnt things. Obviusly to you and others it isn't but that is your own opinion.
If you really want to know why those men are in G-Bay just take a look at the Geniva Convention's laws of war. Bush isnt breaking the law because he has lawyers that know all the lovely loopholes and can beat the system. The men in that camp are not citizens of any country, nor are they part of any leagle army. Therefore they have very limited rights.
The Patriots Act, can easily be changed/amended/removed if the American people really want it to be. So far, not enough want it removed so there it stays.
I hope I have broken things down to a level that we can all understand it, and I hope that I have not offended anyone. If I have, please send me a PM and let me know. I will be happy to rephrase anything if needs be.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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