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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Latest Update:



Just discovered a few more club swinging resources:



Simpy Circus Club Swinging.



Plus two down loadable books on club swinging:



Indian club-swinging: one, two, and three club juggling by Frank E Miller (1900). This one seems particularly good with a bit on Snakes and Electric Light (bulb) Club-Swinging.



Indian club swinging : by an amateur - Gardiner, Benjamin (1884)













Update: You can now download a copy of Anna Jillings book "Modern Club Swinging and Pole Spinning" from her site at Cosmos Juggling.



There had been a bit of interest shown in club/torch swinging recently so perhaps it's a good time to start a general discussion on club swinging.



I really enjoy clubs because I like the symmetry of club swinging, and I think they teach you the natural pathways for the body movements required for good poi/staff technique (if you know what I mean).



However, it's taking me ages to learn the proper grips, especially the ring grip, and I sometimes wonder if I'm wasting my time learning the proper grips. I've noticed that quite a few people hold their clubs with the club between the first and middle fingers, and this grip makes it easy for poi like moves. Some club's even have a groove around the knob to facilitate this grip (don't start).



I've always followed Daina the Huntresse'srecommendations "You may have the urge to hold the torch between you first and middle fingers instead of the thumb and first finger, but resist! The ball-and-socket grip will give you a lot move flexibility once you're used to it.



So I wondering what grips are people using, and is it worth persevering with the proper grips???



Update. Some of these links were getting buried so I've moved them up here for better access:



Hop links: Pele posted these links a while ago, and they are well worth reading.

here

here

here

and here

Ade dug out this great post on clubs

Some interesting stuff on waistwraps



Fountain:as described by Diana the Huntress



Some other resources:

Anna Jillings site on clubs and poles

The highly recommended Gandini DVD for club swinging.

Ben Schoenberg's Serious Juggling site

Floating on Quiddity: Juggling Pages for great info on Clubs, Fire Chains, Staff and Meteor.





Martial arts & historic clubs:

There are some interesting historic articles on clubs, wands and stuff here (PT Vol 2) really wink

Indian Clubs

Learn about short power drills. There are also some old videos and stuff if you dig around.



The Book of Club Swinging by Ben Richter, Schatz's Club Swinging book and Anna Jillings book are also good sources.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1209714529)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:I tried it very briefly, I didn't like it much, although that may well be because I'm more used to the other grips. It seems very restrictive, I like having the relatively weaker grips, they give more maneuverability without needing some seriously bendy wrists.

Holy cow, I've just read a bit of the secret world site - those clubs are huge!
I've got a couple of 2 pound clubs and they're plenty heavy enough for me


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:True Bov, they are gigantic. But people dont believe me when I tell them that clubs are going to be next big thing wink apologies for that.

I had an Indian work colleague and friend. He was quite amused when he saw what I was calling clubs. You can see why weight training progressed from clubs, to bells (dumb bells), kettle bells etc, until the barbell was invented. After the barbell, with adjustable weights became popular, clubs faded. Except as gizmos sold to learn the 1-inch punch.

I like the strength of holding the club below the ball, as pictured. Reckon it would be ace for playing swords. Similarly, holding the club upside down, like some of the old snake grips where they hold the cub below the ball, has a stabbing action. Think Ill have to watch myself though, as I keep stabbing imaginary opponents sneaking up behind me wink c ya.

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Bov, how the two pounders going? Im thinking I might get into some heavy clubs if they arent too expensive. I picked up this 2lb bowling pin/skittle out of the the hard waste (as you do) and it felt really good ubbidea perhaps this is what is missing from my practice.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:heh, my 2 pound ones feel really nice when I spin them but I don't spin them often. Most of the time I spin in my room and I'm scared of hitting the lights with them. It's not so bad with a lighter club but the heavy ones would probably tear the whole fitting from the ceiling smile

Maybe it's time to head outside to spin, especialy now the weather's supposed to be getting better around here.

I've been trying to read Schatz again recently, starting from the very beginning and trying to get my head around it all from square one. I think I may have to write myself a 'translation', something I can use for light reading wink
I may even scan the pictures in and have them in obvious places, near the text that refers to them.

As a side note, I got the Jillings book from ebay the other day, it's alot larger than I was expecting (A4 size), it's alot nicer being able to read it on actual paper than the pdfs biggrin


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Yes Bov, I suspect 2 pounders could do much damage, hehe, and were headed for winter over here.

Im glad you brought up Schatz. Im also stuck. I hit the wall with Part IV, and cant seem to get into pendulums. I just get fed up with it, put it down for a 2, 3 or 6 month period, the pick it up again.

Starting from the beginning helps, but then you hit an exercise that may take a year to learn. Like Lesson 1, heart shaped circles. I still have trouble alternating them, btw I liked those pictures you posted cool

Schatz was consistent, and eventually you get used to his terms. Though, I still have touble with some of his descriptions. Let us know if you get stuck on a particular exercise, I might be able to help. The diagrams are detailed, but all over the shop. It might be useful to also copy the snakes diagrams, then cut and past them in sequence.

Great score on Jillings book. I wouldnt mind a peek at that old Indian Clubs Bells and Dumb Bells book by Staff Sargent Moss that one Ed Thomas refers to. Apparently, Moss was considered the strongest man in the British Army at the time (c. 1914).

Never let a cheesy chance go by, so perhaps, you could also market your the Light Reading Translation of Schatz as a cure for insomnia wink

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:intrigued to see on the clibswinging.net website that clubswinging was essentially lost until the 1990s...

must tell that to all the jugglers i know. espescially the guy on a 1984 ija video who does a wicked clubswinging routine.

(ok, i know, different weight etc... )

i been swinging lots recently.
damn fairies.


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:yay

p.s I'm not stalking you.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good to see a few friendly fairies drop bye smile

You could be right bluecat, but I think it depends on how you look at it, as there are many forms of club swinging.

Perhaps club swinging, as a martial art, did die out until the 1990s. Im not sure, it's probably just a line. Club swinging for weight training certainly declined with the progression to dumb bells and bar bells. In other areas like gymnastics, circus and calethenics club swinging has survived.

Both the Schatz and Moss books were published in 1914 at the time of World War One, when other martial arts like "single-stick" wink headed towards extinction, and quote:

Written by:
The first decades of the twentieth century brought about the decline of Singlestick play. Tragically, many young athletes lost their lives in the Great War (1914-1919). Subsequent advances in technology allowed the mass-manufacture of relatively inexpensive, flexible and lightweight steel fencing blades, and in the 1920s the organisers of the Olympic Games selected three fencing sports foil, epee and sabre as Olympic events.




wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:biggrin

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I expect bluecat and fluff will be making contributions to this thread then? yes? new clubby goodness? yes?

also - fluffy if you can make it to the Cosmos juggling weekend / week (I think its in Scotland?), you will get to train with Anna Jillings, who wrote a book on club swinging. Id like to train with her - but unfortunately the cost of the flight and the weekend and transfers is prohibitive...

do a search in the events section - Cosmos jugglers post in there.


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Facelessjoker
enthusiast
Location: Exeter
Member Since: 20th Sep 2004
Total posts: 249
Posted:Ive just perchased the schatz book. I learnt the basics from the richter book and used my poi knowledge but now im losing inspiration. I keep doing alot of the same thing.
I use alot of flourishes and throws when i spin, ive also played with the idea of making the clubs look like a staff as mentioned before. I find when i do that though the ball handle makes them slip apart and look crooked. frown Another thing ive been playing with recently is crossers. They are alot more difficult because of the weight being mainly on the wicks, so sometimes it ends up looking more like devilsticking with one hand biggrin


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:losing inspiration, looking for something new? then try learning the snakesssssss



the alternating rope snake with spin above head p 71

should keep u going for quite a while smile



Also you could try pendulms p 89 and 95.



Almost forgot, try some tracing or the three club cross-and-follow.





cheers smile

EDITED_BY: Stone (1116725108)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Over the weekend I started playing with longarm circles while keeping the clubs facing the same direction through the whole circle, nice but really hard on your wrists.

Is there a proper name for them, or do I get to invent one? wink


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Bov, Im not sure of the move, but I thought you were doing something like that a while ago. Id like to hear what you call it.

Ive been having a sabbatical, though I did manage to get some Babashe juggling torches. They were a significant investment rolleyes but its joy to have something with balance, and contact possibilities.

Heres an interesting exercise. From position, outward long arm circles, then continuous shoulder circles right. Left keeps doing long arm circle, then shoulder circle, back to long arm circle. Swap to continuous shoulder circles with the left.

cheerio smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:
It seems that the move's been named (not by me) the R-Type, after the pods in the computer game that orbit around the main ship, but keep their guns pointed forwards.

I bought myself some dube airflite clubs a couple of weeks ago, they're so much better than the newspaper and electrical tape clubs or the gymnastics clubs that I've been using up until now.
They're longer than the clubs I was using, so I've been playing with half arm circles, keeping the elbows tucked in and only swinging the forearm, so I don't hit the ceiling in my room smile

For that exercise, how many shoulder circles is the right arm doing while the left does the longarm circle?

I managed to get forward snakes working asynchronous yesterday, which was really nice smile
Once I've got them going backwards I'm going to work on an asynchronous snake fountain, I'm not sure if it'll work or not yet.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:so...

clubswinging makes you harder, apparently ubblol


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:clubs in chat ?

omg, rushes off to read chat thread

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Timely bump cole biggrin







Hi Bov,



How's your ceiling?



To try and answer your questions.



How many shoulder circles is the right arm doing while the left does the longarm circle?



Im guessing two.





Cheers on the asynchronous forward snakes. I have a bit of trouble with them. I think its the way I start them. By asynchronous I assume u mean alternating.





I havent been practicing, :bad: but I think Ill have a go at an asynchronous snake fountain. I think turning to the side ( twist trunk) might help a bit.. Also I think I started doing synchronous snake shoulder circles and speeded one club up to get a nice windmill going.





weavesmiley


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Phew, dusty in here. Time for a spring clean and bump



biggrin


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi all, Im bumping the club swinging thread because I just discovered two downloadable books on club swinging:



1. Indian club-swinging: one, two, and three club juggling by Frank E Miller (1900). cool



This book by Frank E Miller seems particularly good with a bit on Snakes and Electric Light (bulb) Club-Swinging (wicked). It has excellent Figures, and is really worth a look.



I havent come to grips with the nomenclature used in this book, but the basic snake movement (Figs. 28-31) looks a bit like the Jillings snake curl.



There is also an interesting variation on the solid grip used for long arm circles etc. where the knob of the club is placed on the back of the wrist.



 Written by

METHODS OF HOLDING CLUBS



For all plain swings and circles, the fingers are so placed that they can manipulate the club and guide it in the various planes. The hand should grasp the club as in Fig. 3, the knob touching the wrist, first finger straight, so the club will be in a straight line with forearm. The heaviest part of the club will be brought near the hand. The grasp is used only for elementary swings. In executing circles remove the finger to side next the third finger then place it on the club as before, after executing the circle, as it helps to keep the club in a straight line with the forearm.





 Written by

Method Of Holding Club for the more advanced movements: Let the club slide from the loosely with the ends of the fingers, so the club will swing freely. See Fig. 4. (Claw grip). The thumb, second, and third fingers do most all the holding ; try to revolve the club in the hand while making circles, as it helps in making them smooth and rounded.









2. Indian club swinging : by an amateur - Gardiner, Benjamin (1884)



Not sure about siteswap, this book has swinging formulas



Check this one out:



In this connection practice the following formulas:

Z D P A (F) 2.

z D p A (S) 2.

Left club n 1 )(F) 3.

Right

" Y C) 2.

p 1 W (F) 1. 6.

p 1 W (S) 1.

q m X (F) 1. 6.

q m X (S) 1.

In the last four examples p and q are turned in front from the

first goal, and 1 and m at arm's length at the side from the sixth



eek

EDITED_BY: Stone (1209774641)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Very nice found Stone.

in
Non-Https Image Link
,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Richee smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Wow Stone, it's like you read my mind. I literally just brushed off my clubs yesterday after not playing with them for awhile, and pulled out my Jillings book and wished for something else.
Dead Serious! eek

I love it!

Thanks so much! hug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Cheers Pele, good to see you down here.

Hope you enjoyed the old books. I like how Miller incorporates one, two and three club juggling.

If you are looking for something else, then there is also the "Schatz" book. It is especially good for the snake moves, in particular the traveling snakes.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Stone- its taken ne a while since seeing this to download the book, but that Miller text is awesome! smile I love this guy, every single combination he suggests, he always drills;



-counterlike (backwards? I think)

-alternate (same meaning we use).



There are a LOT of exercises in there. Have you figured out the between the legs snake stuff? I reckon there might be some gold in there.



Nice one and thanks again. I really want a set of indian clubs now. My alby's just dont give me the workout I'm looking for! wink

EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1210653314)


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :Stone


Cheers Pele, good to see you down here.

Hope you enjoyed the old books. I like how Miller incorporates one, two and three club juggling.

If you are looking for something else, then there is also the "Schatz" book. It is especially good for the snake moves, in particular the traveling snakes.

smile



lol Thanks. I'm notoriously a lurker in tech. biggrin

I have Schatz and Jillings, which are both really nice as well but I hit a wall with them and just walked away a few years ago. I find Schatz can be difficult to get through but pulled it all out on Saturday again.

I am really enjoying the Miller. I'm going to have it printed out so I can take it with me (yay for loved ones who work for printing companies!) and figure it out.
It's very meaty with info and makes me all twitterpated wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Pyro, good to hear from you.

Miller is pretty impressive. I just love what these guys got up to in the old days, especially stuff like two club juggling and electric light bulb swinging.

I agree, counter like means reverse or opposite direction.

I havent had much time to figure out the between the legs snakes. But I was flicking through the figures of the snake movement, when I noticed if you use the wheel on the mouse you can almost get a animated effect.

Have you found any reference to the cross and follow in either book? There is a list of names at the back of the Gardiner book that include the Windmill, Enigma, Orge and the Wizard (6 forms), but its seems difficult to tie them to an actual exercise drill.

Ive been looking for a set of Indian clubs, so if you see any around let us know. I could certainly do with a workout.



Hi Pele, there must be something in the ether if everyone is getting out their clubs.

I agree the Miller book does seem to offers a different approach to club swinging compared to the Schatz/Jillings school.

I think its an excellent ideas getting a professional copy printed, it makes it portable and also preserves the book for prosperity. Looking forward to hearing about all these new moves you discover.

Have Fun smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:I just ordered a pair of clubs. I've been wanting to start for a while now. I found that PDF book online so that seems like it will be a great start.

Thought i should bump the thread smile


O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Are just standard juggling clubs what people tend to use? My niece has calisthenics twirling clubs... would adult sized ones of those be better?

hug

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:As far as i can tell, juggling clubs have a different knob on the end that doesnt work too well for swinging. I head a ball shaped knob is best....i saw a post saying the PX3's are good for swinging...so i got a couple of the cheaper ones of those....I suppose though, like everything else, it all comes down to preference.

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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