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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Latest Update:



Just discovered a few more club swinging resources:



Simpy Circus Club Swinging.



Plus two down loadable books on club swinging:



Indian club-swinging: one, two, and three club juggling by Frank E Miller (1900). This one seems particularly good with a bit on Snakes and Electric Light (bulb) Club-Swinging.



Indian club swinging : by an amateur - Gardiner, Benjamin (1884)













Update: You can now download a copy of Anna Jillings book "Modern Club Swinging and Pole Spinning" from her site at Cosmos Juggling.



There had been a bit of interest shown in club/torch swinging recently so perhaps it's a good time to start a general discussion on club swinging.



I really enjoy clubs because I like the symmetry of club swinging, and I think they teach you the natural pathways for the body movements required for good poi/staff technique (if you know what I mean).



However, it's taking me ages to learn the proper grips, especially the ring grip, and I sometimes wonder if I'm wasting my time learning the proper grips. I've noticed that quite a few people hold their clubs with the club between the first and middle fingers, and this grip makes it easy for poi like moves. Some club's even have a groove around the knob to facilitate this grip (don't start).



I've always followed Daina the Huntresse'srecommendations "You may have the urge to hold the torch between you first and middle fingers instead of the thumb and first finger, but resist! The ball-and-socket grip will give you a lot move flexibility once you're used to it.



So I wondering what grips are people using, and is it worth persevering with the proper grips???



Update. Some of these links were getting buried so I've moved them up here for better access:



Hop links: Pele posted these links a while ago, and they are well worth reading.

here

here

here

and here

Ade dug out this great post on clubs

Some interesting stuff on waistwraps



Fountain:as described by Diana the Huntress



Some other resources:

Anna Jillings site on clubs and poles

The highly recommended Gandini DVD for club swinging.

Ben Schoenberg's Serious Juggling site

Floating on Quiddity: Juggling Pages for great info on Clubs, Fire Chains, Staff and Meteor.





Martial arts & historic clubs:

There are some interesting historic articles on clubs, wands and stuff here (PT Vol 2) really wink

Indian Clubs

Learn about short power drills. There are also some old videos and stuff if you dig around.



The Book of Club Swinging by Ben Richter, Schatz's Club Swinging book and Anna Jillings book are also good sources.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1209714529)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:NE1 do three-quarter circles?

I've been doing them a bit lately to change direction from inward to outward circles and visa versa, using a "tap/tipping/slap". I think three-quarter circles are a pre-cursor to learning pendulums, which I haven't progressed to yet.

The inward one is easier to explain. Start with a few double inward full arm circles (double - both arms together). Then as the clubs rise, check the motion after the clubs have crossed, shoulder high. Arms will be spread T like. Next, allow the clubs to swing a half circle (in towards the head), pivoting at the hand, and the club will rest momentarily on the arm. Then swing back again after the slap or tipping, in the opposite direction, with a bit of a bound and you will be doing outward circles. With the outward one, the arms are folded shoulder high.

Another easy change of direction is to stop momentarily during a full arm circle when the clubs are at 12 o'clock. Like stretch up as you come out of outward shoulder snakes or something, check the motion when the clubs are at 12 and go to inward movements smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:nice one stone smile

Its a bit of a challenge to find consistent flowing ways to change the direction of clubs I find. Body taps work a treat smile I also use 1/4 snakes, ie you go in to do a snake, and then as soon as you get to the snake grip you let the club bounce off your forearm back out the way it came in. its real nice done with just one club and going into paralell time smile

Josh


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Spent the first half of the BJC playing with clubs and some ideas to play with....



Sorry if it's nonsensical, the browser crashed earlier....gettting tedious you know the way...



Throws from everywhere. I've not got them all solid but just for ideas. Under legs (wall plane - left / right, wheel plane front / back), under opposite arms, from btb waistwrap postion, under opposite armpit from forward postion. (Josh your btb throws to opposite catches are way easier...)



I ubblove symmetrical throws from btb butterfly waist wrap over body to opposite side. I also ubblove when throwing from any follow time move to try get another spin in before catching, I like using straight turns and catching with arms extended.



I've some variations on these.



Exact same as the linked move but as you have both clubs in right hand pointing left put left hand under right arm and grab the club as righ arm is swinging back to RHS. Difficult to explain, play with it and see what you can do...



Parallel straight arm pendula swing from RHS right hand btb (still straight) to parallel to ground on LHS return other way passing right club onto left fore arms (resting there) as arms pass back to RHS at RHS right hand takes left hand's club and club on left forearm slides into left hand.



You can also place the club similarly on the back of the neck. Try full parallel circle anti-clockwise placing right club onto back on neck / left shoulder. As left arm swing from left to right collect in a similar fasion.



Got more but will leave it there for the minute. Props to Kev and that London juggly lady with the red and black dreads for the inspiration ... cool

EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1082651628)


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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:one for josh:
(and others)
2 clubs,
all wheel plane,
the clubs don't swop hands at all ie all the throws and wraps are siteswop 2's

start one wrong end one right end held as if you were about to start juggling,
roll the wrong end over your shoulder backwards (as a simple staff wrap)
catch it in the same hand by the knob blind behind your armpit.
bring it to the front.
while you were doing that you threw a half with the other side.
and that set you up to repeat on the other side.
continuous.... lalalaaaaaa
bounce2
variation: replace the half-spin throw with a 1.5spin albert this is great as a 1 club trick

or do with 3 clubs as a 423 (4's as 1.5 spin over shoulder roll is the 2)
with juggling (give me a week to get this one solid wink )

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm my new albertrosses meditate


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:sweet mate! smile

I think you need a website - www.trickoftheweek.com

and then give ppl subdomains ie;

www.glass.trickoftheweek.com
www.coleman.trickoftheweek.com

etc

smile

Would very quickly become a wicked tutorial site, and it could cover any manipulation type.

hmm before you guys rev up your new off topic graemlins I'll bring it back to topic;

if you know the oldskool contact staff move that goes; outside to inside upperarm roll -> outside to inside back of hand roll -> inside to outside back of hand roll -> inside to outside upperarm roll

try it with clubs. the halves can be done continous alternating one club on each arm.

Josh


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Quote:
Throws from everywhere. I've not got them all solid but just for ideas. Under legs (wall plane - left / right, wheel plane front / back), under opposite arms, from btb waistwrap postion, under opposite armpit from forward postion. (Josh your btb throws to opposite catches are way easier...)




mmmmm, love throws, love where you can put them ubblove
Once you start playing with them, you have to restrict their use - it's too tempting to out throws in all over the place smile


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

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Posted:hey joshwa try putting those rolls(that you were using for club swinging) in juggling, as the 2 of 423. its a loooooooovely trick, and i've been trying to nail it for some time. now finally got the right hand solid, and am predicting at least another year before i get both hands in 522(i think....)

hugs
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:so consider this;

http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/siteswap.php?site=423
br>
youre talking about putting that roll in where the ball is held for a count?

awesome!

ubbrollsmile

Josh


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep.

glass likes to write 42!3.
the exclamation mark shows the 2 is juggled or if used after a different number isn't the normal throw for that number (eg. a reverse or reduced/increased spin, body throw and so on).

a nice couple to get started with:
with clubs - 4 as a double, 2 as a low, fast single spin.
with balls - 2 thrown over the forearm of the hand throwing the 4 (the 2 obviously still caught and thrown with the same hand).

what rolls are you talking about doing - i couldn't find reference to them in this thread?

i've been doing 522! with the 2! as a forearm roll (wallplane roll outwards over the forearm, like a variation of the ball trick described above).
still not solid on both sides though frown



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:um - its the classic upper arm, back of hand, back of other hand, upper arm roll that drew taught me. as I didnt learn it from HOP I dont really know where its been discussed?

Its done in wall plane and is quite batonish in style.

confused

thanks for the juggling tips smile

Josh


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bluecat


bluecat

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Location: everywhere

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Posted:the bit i'm talking about is the second half of that.

i have tried the whole thing as the 1 in 441(massive 4s) but its a wee bit nasty....


R biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi guys, thanks for all the juggling tips.

I'm not much of a club juggler, but that could be because my torches are awkwardly balanced or I'm slack rolleyes Whatever, juggling is fun and I think a good routine would include juggling. Now, all I gotta do is figure out site swap. The link to the juggling simulator should help with site swap, though people may need to change the address to get to IJDB.

As the shoulder snake is a 3 circle move (2 front and 1 behind) how do people do continuous alternating shoulder snakes without getting outta wack?

An easy transition from a waist wraps to opposite direction butterfly type moves is the do the waist wrap with the waterwheel (between the legs) and just cross the clubs as you finish the waterwheel and go into a giant butterfly type move.

Cheers juggle


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

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Posted:Hi Stone;

re the atlternate timed snakes, the only way I've found to get them consistently split timed is to break the 3 circles up into 6 half circles, and count through the turns, empahsising the first and fourth beats...ie One -2 -3 FOUR -5 -6 repeat. Starting the chasing club (I always have a lead hand which is the skilled one, with the bad hand slaved to it when I'm learning) on the Four count.

it takes me a few weeks to get it up to speed, and if I dont keep practicing it, it deteriorates quickly...

but it seems to produce alternate timed circles, you can tell because of the rhythm of the throwoffs.

I like your waterwheel => giant buttefly transition, nice one!

Josh


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Hey Stone, I know what you mean about the balancing on swinging torches. I'm beginning to think that juggling clubs may be the way forward for me too as there's way more you can do with them.

I don't get the direction change you explained there at all though. I understand the watermill part of a waist wrap, do you mean a stall of one under the leg?

Incidently you can you do the middle circle of a waist wrap both clubs between the legs.

Quote:
the 3 circles up into 6 half circles, and count through the turns, empahsising the first and fourth beats...ie One -2 -3 FOUR -5 -6 repeat

thanks, I was trying that all wrong smile


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Josh, I try 6 half circles and the counting. It makes sense, and I'm not getting anywhere at the moment. I think I was trying to slow the circle behind to compensate.

I agree DSS, juggling clubs could be the go, though there are some Dube swinging clubs that have a reasonable balance. My current torches have cathedrals, and are way overbalanced when they have a full fuel load.

Busted. That was a pretty poor description DSS. But like you say, you can do the middle circle of a waist wrap with both clubs between the legs (I actually thought that was the waterwheel bit). Anyhow, for waist wraps going right and the right hand leading, I do the middle circle b/t the legs. Then, when I'm coming out of the waterwheel, with the right leading, my left wrist comes behind my right, then I reach up with both arms and go into a large outward arm circles. Now, I may stall with the right a fraction, and there are plenty of variations.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:ok heres another newbie for you all, that Drew inspired smile



its a bit involved, you will need to have a good understanding of snakes, and other stuff...



I call it the drop swap or slide swap (same move with different angles) - and I was going to save it for my COL entry, but since I'm not entering, I'll post it here for you all smile



ok.



learning comes in a few stages, lets learn the easy bit first.



Section 1. - The Slide



Stand with a club in your left hand and your other arm bent at the elbow so your fist is resting against your chin (knuckles paralell to floor) and your forearm is level with your upper arm creating a level platform. Now incline this platform slightly towards the floor about 30 degrees.



With your left hand club swing a large 3/4 outer to inner circle in wall plane ending with the knob of the club resting on the back of your shoulders, and the body of it resting on your right arm (inclined platform).



You should be able to release your left hand grip on the club, and the club should sit there, on its platform made from your neck, shoulder and right arm.



gottit? cool.



the next bit is a bit tricky, but its just a knack, and its not hard.



You have to learn how to make the club slide along the top of your arm as you extend your arm and let it slide through your hand (palm facing the ceiling) and grab the handle as it slides past with your right hand. The club should slide down a straight trajectory towards the floor at 30 degrees (or so). Your arm unfolds as it goes.



Ok - so you are asking, how can I get the club to slide from its resting plaftorm?



its all in the body movement I havent told you about yet wink



when you do your inital outer to inner swing you should move your body (not your feet) to the left about 2 feet. Do this by bending your knees and lunging, and having a wide stance. Slow and steady. As the club lands on its platform, start coming back the other way (to your right) accelerating the club relative to the ground. as you reach your top speed release the club and then put the brakes on your body hard. The club will keep going, and slide smoothly down your inclined arm into the able grasp of your right hand. Yay!



Section 2. - The Sneaky Hold



Swap the club into your other hand. Just one club again at this stage folks.



On the other hand you pause on the backhalf of a snake, so that the club is resting its weight across the top of your upper arm and a bit on your forearm (This should look very similar to how the other club looked in its resting position). The knob should be near your chin. Subtly pin the knob between your chin and your chest. You should now be able to release your snake grip, extend your arm (as if the other club were sliding down it) and the club should sit suspended by your chin grip.



can anyone guess what the move is? an Imaginary pat on the back for correct answers smile



Section 3 - Putting it together.



Run through both movements - you should come to a spot where the clubs are BOTH resting on your inclined platform (right arm). Release the left club and initiate the slide, extending your arm. Reach around your head with your now empty left hand and grab the knob of the club pinned under your chin. Catch the other club as it slides through your right hand.



Sneaky hey?



it works on fire, but you have to have it smooth, and you have to have clubs that can rest on your arm without the heads on there.



but what about the drop swap?



Incline your arm all the way to the ground. Do the move. Who needs a slide when theres freefall? smile You ahve to be quick tho, and I dunno about this on fire unless you are really quick with it.



I'll leave you to think up some lovely stylin' to go with this - but there is some o' so lovely body movement and characterisation thats there for the taking smile



I hope you enjoy it. Its been my little baby for a few months.



Possible super hardcore variations;



-do a full 360 wall plane spin on the freefalling club in the drop swap.

-backside elbowjoint catch and flip on the sliding club in slide swap.

-???



Josh


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for the new slide move Josh, but am I the only one who is going to have to takes days off work to figure it out? wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:help... I'm a bit fuzzy round the edges this morning...
Please feed me video.
Its a detailed explaination, But I'll have to come back and read it while holding some clubs
Nothing new to report with clubs...Almost all my swinging is with women nowdays, wink
:swing dance smilie:
Smiles
Drew


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted::reads own post:

confused

ok - private video d/ls for those who are interested.

PM me, and I'll PM you the URL (when its up, in a few days).

Josh


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:ok, who else is going to admit that they have been sneaking glances at the gymnastics in the Olympics hoping to see some club swinging?

ubblove

I finally saw some in the artistic gymnastic section (that's what sitting at home with tonsilitis will lead me to do...)

WOW eek

windmills and weaves - sooooo smooth, so beautiful hug


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:lol Ade, yes now that you mention it, I had a faint hope of seeing some club swinging. Anyhow, I love watching the gymnastics and in the rhythmic section I thought the Australian girl was marked down a bit, but the perhaps that was because the other competitors were almost perfect smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i missed it all - they only showed 2 hours of rg in the uk and it was only available to digital tv viewers on the last sunday afternoon frown

on a side note, rg clubs are quite nice for swinging - they have the same type of weight distribution as indian clubs and best of all they're disgustingly cheap!

for people in the yookay there is this website:

givemesomecheapswingingclubsnow.com

they also sell well priced rg balls (for anyone that is interested in getting into head bouncing or large ball contact juggling) smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for that Doc Coleman, but hey dont those clubs have long________handles. Perhaps, one could expect they would be useful for contact stuff. Speaking of contact, does anyone think of the snakes as contact moves?

I mean its one thing to do the circles like in the books, but the descriptions seem to lack what I would call a real snake twisting movement. I seem to remember someone (sorry, cant remember her name) saying that the club should look like a bowling ball rolling around the arm when doing the shoulder snake. So, at the moment Im using my forearm muscles a lot more to manipulate (push?) the club around, contact staff style.

What not to do with snakes; is try the waiter move (horizontal snake) at dessert time redface All Im gunna say is that ice-cream is really slippery stuff when its on a flat white plate.

I suppose the silver lining is that later that night I started practicing horizontal snakes, with a devil stick of all things, when I had the thought that it should be possible to do continuous 4-beat snakes, by going from say outward to inward, and eliminate the throw-off (flickey bit). Hmmm, then again..


Any thoughts on continuous 4-beat snakes???


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:define 4-beat snake (ie how does it differ from a normal snake)?

Josh


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Umm Josh, I sometimes confuse myself. Sometimes???

How does it differ from a normal snake?

Well, I dont hold the club in the snake grip for all the circles behind the shoulder. I release the snake grip for a throw-off before I do the next set of shoulder snakes.

I will get back when I have figured out how to say, what I was trying to say confused


Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Hi club swingers. Ive just finished a club swinging vid which is being hosted by Strugz at snake handling

it has a lot of snake variations and a few other bits and pieces constructive critisism most welcome! smile

Josh


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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:smile

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:First ever club swinging vid I saw josh.

I've never been much of a poi person but you've inspired me to learn clubs.

*toddles off to durbs recomendations for buying swinging clubs*


Love is the law.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Great stuff Josh, nice tricks and good flow.

With the three quarter circles (1:38) just before u transition to opposite direction moves (1:40) you can also put one hand btb for a nice variation with these ones. Then u start an alternating traveling snake (1:42), its a bit fast for me to see properly, but u seem to start with second half snake, with the club in front. It looks good, but its a bit different to the one I do.

Think well have to compare notes on traveling snakes and spirals. Ill start practicing, and book a place at your EC workshop. CU smile

Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:hehe - yeah the alternating travelling snake is a bit of a ubbloco It kinda just came out on vid. a bit like the horizontal snakes - I dont do them normally, I just kinda threw them in there for good measure. gotta work on my reverse horizontal snakes (as you can see in the vid) smile

looing forward to trading moves with you smile

Josh


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