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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Global warming maybe if it starts costing money something will be done about it.

Quote:
"I'm becoming more and more convinced... that global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people and the world," he told a conference briefing.



Is this dude for real or is he just stupid? Shame on you!

Guide to climate change


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Obviously this guys seems to think that the whole world of people who became aware of, and tried to reduce and halt, the human impact on global warming only live in America.
Typical small minded yank statement. (sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers)
Global temperature fluctuates naturally year on year, always has and always will, but the evidence of human intervention causing an unnatural increase is surely irrefutable....isn't it?! confused


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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:polar shift maaan wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Pele'sWhippingBoy


member
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

Total posts: 442
Posted:I watch the shows on this every time I see one. The evidence that we're actually doing anything to the planet is less and less every time. I have a feeling that there isn't a real problem that we caused. Some of the arguments against the problem is that we have not had proper temperature readings from a large enough sample or for a long enough time frame.
We do know that the planet goes through temperature fluctuations throughout the ages. We know this because there was an ice age where much of the planet was covered with ice and now it's not. So if the planet does start warming up, it may not be our fault.

I'm not saying that I know factually anything. I just know what I heard on the various specials.


FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:My two cents for what it's worth.

I am a geologist, and studied some thigns associated with climate change, like the ice ages, etc.

The earth's climate has changed slowly over time, going from hot to cold, and back to hot. Think of this change as something with a rather large wavelength.

On top of the overall change, there are seasonal fluctuations, which ride along the longer wavelength global climate changes.

We only have concrete records for a few hundred years for things like temperature, etc, and we live on a planet that is billions of years old.

I don't think we have enough concrete data to say with 100% certainty that mankind is causing global warming, and mankind is the only factor. I do think that we can, and probably do have an impact, but I do not think we have the data to quantify how we are having an impact.

Something to look into are Milankovitch cycles. It is a fancy term for the overall climate changes coupled with the noise of seasonal changes that I mention above. There are scientists who outline the overall cycles and modern day fluctuations, but it only covers a fraction of a fraction of our planet's existance.

Things probably are getting warmer, but how much of that is due to humans vs nature, I think is hard to quantify. That does NOT mean, however, that human beings should be lax in our responsibility of caring for the environment.

Just my two cents....and by no means an expert opinion.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:I think I agree with Spitfire, fluctuations happen regardless of human inhabitance, but we shouldn't relax our controls on emisions because we think it 'might' not have any overall effect, it's been good that it's made us feel and act more responsible whether it was true or not.
But ultimately a warmer planet will lead to a cooler planet because of the shifting wind patterns such as the gulf stream (the only thing that keeps my country warm!). Nature always finds a way to equal itself out...let's just hope it include our survival!


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Yes temperature do fluctuate and this can be caused by many things. There are many theory's for the ice age / ages, nobody knows the causes but most theories involve some kind 'event' cataclysmic or otherwise. There is even discussion that global warming could cause another ice age.

Quote:
The evidence that we're actually doing anything to the planet is less and less every time.

eek

Looking at the main points -
BBC Main Points
Any one of them could be argued as coincidence. Most people find coincidence a little hard to believe. Surely when toying with such important things it is prudent to err on the side of caution? It is unwise to play 'Russian - there is no evidence otherwise - roulette' with mother nature.

Why did America sign the agreement in the first place if they thought it was bull? I'm sorry but it stinks of greed.

I think it's sad that when I was in primary school, we were told about global warming and what it meant and all thought it was terrible, to still beup against this now...


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure

Total posts: 86
Posted:Some basic and undeniable facts:
* The world goes through natural temperature fluctuations
* The climate is changing rapidly right now
* Green house gasses contribute to the green house effect
* Nobody can measure these contributions in quantifiable terms.

It pisses me off when people say that because we can't measure how much is natural and how much is human caused we should just ignore what is human caused mad

We know that the planet is warming, the arctic is melting. It is ridiculous to think that we can't change until we can measure the damage we are doing. This is nothing but pure ignorance. By the time we can measure it, it will probably be too late.

We do have an effect on the climate, this is neither my opinion or anybody else's, it is a fact (at least to the degree that anything can be called absolute fact).


I just read today that the united states is being sued on behalf of the 155,000 people living in the arctic circle for negligence related to global warming that is leading to the extermination of the (mostly inuit) northern people.



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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Sorry but I absolutly despise most "enviromental scientists" The ones screaming and yelling and crying over global warming are usually ones fresh out of university and don't know [censored], or they have failed in other fields and have fallenback to one of the only fields in science where you can get paid to dream up doomsday scenarios without any real science.

The global warming theory is a joke. Yeah it may be happening. Yeah we should limit emissions but not because of global warming. Im for some emission control for air quality and prevention of acid rain etc etc... Things we actually know with scientific proof that we are causing, and that is is harmful.

Im not so sure about relaxing the emission standards, but any plans to tighten them needed to be economicaly feasible, and not absolutly batty-ass insane impossible. *COUGH* kyoto accord *cough*

that [censored]'s going to destroy so many jobs it's not funny.

Also what I find funny is how people only crusade to save the enviroment because of buzzwords like "global warming" What about foreign ships dumping their bilge water (oil, sewage,lubricants etc...) in YOUR waters, polluting the water and poisoning the fish. The fish that have a high iffinity for sucking up and retaining heavy metals and carcinogens. The fish that you eat every friday, effectivly poisoning yourselves a little bit at a time.


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KristieEB


member
Location: Oakland, CA

Total posts: 108
Posted:I have been an ecologist, but I have to say that I totally agree with what Michael Crichton has to say in this speech ...

http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote05.html


Often to get anything done about something important you have to whip people up into an irrational frenzy. The environment IS important. Desperately so, if we want our grandchildren to have a toxic free place to grow up ... BUT lets not turn it into a religion, ok?


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, SOMETHING is changing rather quickly.

I grew up on a lake in Michigan. When I was 10, the lake would freeze over solidly every year. We'd go cross-country skiing and ice-skating on it. We would always have snow by early December. We'd get lots of snow every year and it would stick all winter.

By the time I was 16, the lake had stopped freezing over every year and even when it does, it certainly isn't trustworthy for walking on it. The snow no longer sticks, we haven't had a decent, snowy winter in years, and we keep having strange, 70F days in the middle of February.

Does that mean global warming is happening? Of course not, but it does mean that something is changing the weather in the Midwest.

Whether you believe that global warming is happening as dramatically as some would have us believe, you cannot ignore the fact that we have been pulling a lot of extra carbon out of the ground and reintroducing it into the biosphere. In the mean time, we are destroying ecosystems that could help to buffer that excess carbon.

We can't undo what we've done. That carbon we've introduced is going to stick around for millions of years. But we can slow, and eventually stop our use of fossilized carbon for fuel and start using renewable sources, like ethyl alcohol, which doesn't introduce new carbon into the biosphere.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:My thing about global warming, one volcanic eruption spreads more CFCs more carbon dioxide than anything any human can make. So I am not going to worry about my car that piddles around the highway at 33mpg. (For those using the evil metric system thats a freeking hell of alot!)

Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Quote:
Something to look into are Milankovitch cycles.



We actually happen to be near the peak of one of these temperature cycles just now. The maximum of these cycles is not always exactly the same, but the peaks and valleys of these cycles do correlate well with fluctuations of amounts of green house gasses trapped in artic ice.

Being near the peak of a cycle means two things:
1) it is hard to tell if recent increases are due to the fact that the cycle is still on the rise, or due to human activity - should it have leveled off by now?
2) If it is due to human activity, the results will be worse than if we had been fortunate enough for this to occure during a minimum in the temperature cycle.

But the evidence in the last few years is that indeed human influence is starting to clearly show. Our effect is thus far comparitively small compared to the natural cycle, but that doesn't mean it will stay that way. Artic ice shelves are in fact breaking up, but in truth they are still more extensive than we know their natural minimums to be. Should we be alarmed that they are breaking up so quickly? Probably, but we only assumed that the ebb and flow of ice sheets would be slow in their natural cycle. We don't actually know, and assumptions are often wrong when applied to nature, because she is ruled by choatic behavior.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't take it seriously. In fact, out of all the countries in the world that should take it seriously, the United States should. The major effect that global warming is going to have is not the sea level rising a meter or so, but the change in the weather patterns. Some places may in fact become colder due to global warming. global warming only means an increase in the average temperature. Some places may not heat up any, but may get more or less rain. Right now the US is in a perfect weather pattern for growing lots of food. It is possible that much of the farm land in the states will become not suitable for farming as weather patterns change, and that they will become dependant on importing food. That would be a huge blow to the American economy.

Here is the rub - by the time that happens, the United states may well not the be a major contributor to green house gasses. Industrialization of third world countries is happening so rapidly and with so litle regard for emmisions that what America or Russia does may not matter much in 20 years time. And good luck reigning in the developing 3rd world countries. I live in South Africa, which isn't 3rd world and is much more open minded to things like limiting pollution than most countries I am talking about, and frankly they could hardly care less around here.

That doesn't mean the United States shouldn't do anything to curbe their green house gas emmisions. To the extent that the United States is a world leader, this is something it should lead in. It can afford to do it, and 3rd world countries sure as hell aren't going to bother being responsible about it if they don't see 1st world contries bothing to do so. The States must lead by example in this case. GW Bush is not setting a good example.

One last point I would like to make:
Quote:
Typical small minded yank statement. (sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers)



Your statement is in fact the exact attitude that causes America to be insular. I'm quite sure I can find a stupid statement on any subject from someone in any country in the world. But the amount of media in the states is staggering, which insures that idiots who speak loud enough get heard. I am resisting the urge to really go off on a major rant here, because just last night some idiot wanted to start a fist fight with me just because I'm from the States. I managed to say something that made him just walk off and sulk (not sure what it was, wish I did so I could use it again), but the point is that this attitude is friggin ridiculous. The guy doesn't know me, and he doesn't know the States. He;s never been out of South Africa I can say with 99% certainty. He is daft enough to think TV shows like 'Jerry Springer' are real. All he is telling me is that his mind is closed and he doesn't really have any opinion other than the one the media feeds him. I don't want to think that about people on this BBS.

Look, hate Bush as much as you want. I'm 100 percent behind you. But please think twice before you start posting statements that are broadly aimed at people that really have nothing to do with what you are talking about. It doesn't make us go "oh yeah, he's right, we should fix that!" The only effect it really has is to make it a struggle to bother to listen to anything you have to say in the future. And that is why the states becomes more and more insular, because we are starting to care less and less about what others say. If no one is going to bother to take the time to see who we are and just fix us with an inacurate stereotype, why should we bother to make you happy if nothing will anyway?

Look, I'm not trying to start a row with you custom bug. In fact, I am rather well disposed towards you. But I am so sick and tired of hearing people's totally uninformed opinions about the united states. American media is one thing, America itself is something else entirely. Of the thousands I have heard in the last year, about 1% of the perceptions I have heard regarding the states has been anywhere close to accurate. The States have problems. England has problems. South Africa has problems. China has problems. No place is perfect. It doesn't help anything to antogonize a situation you don't care for. Please be more careful about the way you word things.

I hope I managed to say all that without pissing anyone off, but I doubt I succeded. I'm just tired of opening posts and finding statements that are untrue and designed, either conciously or unconciously, to hack americans off just because they are americans. Saying "sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers" doesn't help. Being a scientist, I am one of those public speakers. I'm not one of those people you are refering to though, no one on this board is one of those people (with one possible exception that seesm to have dissapeared), and there is a really good chance that the people in the united states percentage wise that are not like that is the exact same as in your country. But don't tell me you didn't mean to offend me, just try to think about how offensive your words might be in the future please, and how they might actually cause the very thing you a railing against.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Pele'sWhippingBoy


member
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

Total posts: 442
Posted:Quote:
So I am not going to worry about my car that piddles around the highway at 33mpg. (For those using the evil metric system thats a freeking hell of alot!)


I was bored and figured it out. I think it's 14 kilometers per liter.

33mpg is a lot here in the States. I wonder if it is good in other countries. confused


FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:
Well, SOMETHING is changing rather quickly.

I grew up on a lake in Michigan. When I was 10, the lake would freeze over solidly every year. We'd go cross-country skiing and ice-skating on it. We would always have snow by early December. We'd get lots of snow every year and it would stick all winter.

By the time I was 16, the lake had stopped freezing over every year and even when it does, it certainly isn't trustworthy for walking on it. The snow no longer sticks, we haven't had a decent, snowy winter in years, and we keep having strange, 70F days in the middle of February.

Does that mean global warming is happening? Of course not, but it does mean that something is changing the weather in the Midwest.




It's been the same in the North of England; when I was a kid we'd get snow deep enough that the schools would shut, cos it was too difficult to walk through.

We never get snow like that anymore.

Personally I'm not complaining cos I'm no fan of snow and cold weather, however, a few weeks back I saw a documentary which explained what would happen to the Gulf stream if temperatures got warmer.

The warm water of the gulf stream is a big provider of heat for Britain and if it cuts off we'll have a very sudden and long lasting ice age.

Most of the climate science stuff seems either vague or really incomprehensible, so it's difficult to form an opinion; but the Gulf stream stuff is pretty consise and a bit alarming.

There's loads of stuff on the net about it, here's a link to an article: -

http://www.rense.com/general44/iceage.htm


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:

One last point I would like to make:
Quote:
Typical small minded yank statement. (sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers)



Your statement is in fact the exact attitude that causes America to be insular........

..... just try to think about how offensive your words might be in the future please, and how they might actually cause the very thing you a railing against.


Well said.

It's really fashionable at the moment to generalise and have a go at all Americans, based on the actions of a minority of them.

I'd like to assure you that not everyone thinks that way smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Quote:
I'd like to assure you that not everyone thinks that way



Thank you. It means a lot to hear that every so often. beerchug


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:surely all this talk of whether we are actually changing the weather with our complete lack of consideration for our planet and all other life on it is missing the point..the fact is that we are making our air unbreathable,our seas unlivable.....shouldn't that be enough for people to stop and think ?

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:one would think that would be the case. But we are just now starting to become enlightened to the facts, and there is a lot of momentum behind our present behavior. It is going to take a while to change course. I just hope the warning signs for the dead end street we are on have come soon enough for us to stop before we run off the end of the road at the speed we are going.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Part of the problem with the momentum is the money hungry corporations and oil refineries.

With car manufacturers, they don't want to spend the extra money it would take to make a more fuel efficient car or one that would pollute less.

With oil refineries, they are grandfathered so that the newer, more nice air conscious regulations do not apply to them.

I think it is going to take a lot of people power to see any sort of change in either of those sectors.


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vim


strange/r/st/-ish
Location: upside down

Total posts: 142
Posted:mad ubbcrying

::keeps mouth shut::



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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I agree with you Woodnymph.

Quote:
one would think that would be the case. But we are just now starting to become enlightened to the facts, and there is a lot of momentum behind our present behavior. It is going to take a while to change course. I just hope the warning signs for the dead end street we are on have come soon enough for us to stop before we run off the end of the road at the speed we are going



I hope so too Vainize but one of the reasons I find the US administration pulling out of Kyoto so unnerving, is that whether something is factual or not doesn't always make that much difference.

While governor of Texas it became No 1 in air and water pollution and in the release of toxic chemicals. This was a short-term pollution-based prosperity, which enriched his political contributors and lowered the quality of life for everyone else.

The Bush administration has initiated more than 200 major rollbacks of America's environmental laws, weakening the protection of our country's air, water, public lands and wildlife.

The EPA measures its success by the amount of pollution reduced or prevented as a result of its own actions. Last year, the EPA's two most senior career enforcement officials resigned after decades of service. They cited the administration's refusal to carry out environmental laws.

I'm not Bush bashing, it's just a few recent examples of intentionally putting the environment on the back burner. I think the reason why people get so wound up is that greenhouse emmissions are potentially more than Texas' or America's problem.

Quote:
With car manufacturers, they don't want to spend the extra money it would take to make a more fuel efficient car or one that would pollute less.




Is dissagree. I don't know about the rest of the world but in europe our cars have tiny little engines compared to the US. It seems to be personal preference of American consumers. Case in point below.

Quote:
So I am not going to worry about my car that piddles around the highway at 33mpg.



Surely Japanese manufacturers would make smaller engines (which they sell here) available there (maybe they do, I don't know) if they thought they'd sell. Over here there are loads of 1 litre / 1.1 litre engined cars. Catalytic converters are everywhere are they used in America?


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Quote:
33mpg is a lot here in the States.



That's because you only pay about $2 per gallon so 3 litre + cars aren't exactly uncommon but in the uk it costs the equivalent of about $6.50 so we are more frugal. It's also why the world is running out of it far quicker than it should!!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Quote:
Quote:

One last point I would like to make:
Quote:
Typical small minded yank statement. (sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers)


Your statement is in fact the exact attitude that causes America to be insular........
..... just try to think about how offensive your words might be in the future please, and how they might actually cause the very thing you a railing against.


Well said.
It's really fashionable at the moment to generalise and have a go at all Americans, based on the actions of a minority of them.

I'd like to assure you that not everyone thinks that way smile



Hang on a minute, I never said "All Americans" are like that, nor generalised that they were. I said (please see above thread) it's the way they are presented by their public speaking peers (of which I presume are a minority...yes?!?). All (well most) of the news I watch, films I see, books I read etc etc that come from the States presents themselves in a very insular manner. And no my attitude is a reaction to the insular minded presentation, not the cause. A point Michel Moore has very refreshingly made many times, the root of most global American problems stem from America. ie. Pearl Harbour, Twin Towers, Nam, etc etc etc yatta yatta yatta and this leads to the opinions of other nations towards it.
Also, most Americans I've met actually agree with this and hate the fact they are represented on a global basis by their own media in such a negative way. So please get off your far to high hobby horse and read what I wrote, don't create words between the lines that aren't there. Thanks.
Oh and one last point, please don't quote from this to try and prove an attitude I have that doesn't exist.

Nuff sed


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
Posted:While mean tempertures in Western Europe have been increasing, they are falling in Siberia. LANDSAT imagery shows that the Antarctic ice sheets have actually grown. The Pleistocene river gravels on the hill above my house shows that sea levels have been a hell of a lot higher in the past and will be again some day.

The climate changes always has done and always will do, be that for better or worse for us, but you can be sure every other organism on the planet is going to adapt to it with no fuss whatsoever while we're wallowing around desperately trying to find someone to underpin our foundations. The cockroaches are going to be laughing.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:

Quote:
Typical small minded yank statement. (sorry to the Americans who aren't but you're shown to be such a silly insular country by your public speaking peers)





Hang on a minute, I never said "All Americans" are like that...

... So please get off your far to high hobby horse and read what I wrote, don't create words between the lines that aren't there.


The phrase 'small minded yanks' is, to me, a little offensive and prejudicial.

I appreciate that you were talking about how their public speakers present them, but the way it's phrased i.e. saying that the ''small minded yanks' are shown to be such a silly insular country', makes it difficult to pick up on the non offensive content of the post.

I see from your above explanation that you meant no harm, and the points you make are good ones; by posting this I'm not looking to get into an argument, just trying to explain why some of us found it a bit harsh.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure

Total posts: 86
Posted:Quote:
but you can be sure every other organism on the planet is going to adapt to it with no fuss whatsoever while we're wallowing around desperately trying to find someone to underpin our foundations.



I don't think this is true at all, in fact many species are having a lot of trouble already. Just look at how many we've already exterminated. One of the reasons that I think it is so important to take care of the world is the fact that life forms other than human have a right to continued existence.

We're getting somewhat closer to the ideal of equality for all races, but still so far from where I hope we're heading - equality for all life


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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:coolI do hope that 14km/l (whatever the abbv. is) is good hehe


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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