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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Since Dom decided to say on a different topic "God, don't go into drugs here as well!" I feel that it is my duty as a professonal devils advocate to start this topic.Are you for or against the use/legalisation of drugs or controled substances?Personally I fell that (this is a quote from a diff topic) "Makeing drugs leagle wont stop crime and ODs. Did allowing alcohol stop dwi deaths and countless people being killed due to some drunk and a car. Hell no it didnt. Personally I feel that we need to take the war on drugs in a different direction. I think that stiffer punishments would be best. I think that America should follow Singapore's example PUBLIC CAINING!!! I can not think of a better deturent than the threat of haveing your naked ass whipped with a pole in full view of anyone who wants to tune in and watch. Also it should be an act of terrorisim to bring or grow/make drugs into/in America. That punishment would be death. I think that the best way to admister the punishment on that accorde would be disembowlement. Make it so the penalty is so stiff that nobody would want to risk it. Heck after the first few I think that people would start to get the point, but then again mankind (P.C. womankind ) is generally thick headed."[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 12 February 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well I guess this is just me but personally I have a high enough self-esteame that I do not need a substance to make me feel better anymore. I can also have a good time with out haveing to be in an alternate state of conscience. Like it has been said time and time again it is your body, do with it as you please. If you cant have fun with out em or your self worth is that low that you need em to feel better about yourself, have at it. However and there always is a however if you do end up in a permenent state of mindlessness and live in a puddle of your own piss and drool for the rest of your life send me a pic so that I can show my future kids how stupid people in my generation were. Look kids this is what drugs can do to you. Notice no smilies, I am dead serius. Drugs show no mercey and they kill with out predgudise, you may live through a million uses and maybe it may be a million after that but somewhere down the line it will catch up with you. Maybe in the form of cancer 30 years after you quit, or maybe worse, but you know what it still got ya. I still can not believe that your lives mean so little to you. If you did die from them and your parents/loved ones ever asked why, this is what I would tell them. Because they did too much research and knew exactly what they were putting in their bodys, poison. They knew it and they just didn't give a damn about the people they loved. After all fuck me, fuck your children, fuck your spouces, fuck your parents and siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, neices and nephews, coworkers and friends. After all your the only one that matters in this world. Well you and your next hit that is. Is the next pill you pop gonna kill ya? Is the next joint you smoke laced with something? Does that needle that your gonna inject have aids on it? I honestly hope that none of you die from your addictions. That you all live long and sideffect free life.I have a question for you female drug users, would you continue to use them during pregnancy? If not why? Could it be that they are bad for the unborn child? If they are wouldnt that mean that they are bad for you?Just a thought.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Katinca
Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia
Member Since: 9th May 2001
Total posts: 693
Posted:RaymondI don't take extasyI have taken it, but I don't like it. And there is not enough research on it, that I am comfortable taking it yet.I have a real problem with the over use of it actaully.AND I have a real problem with ignorant people assuming that when you talk about taking drugs and you are at a Rave then OooOOOHH you taking extasy.Wrong, for fucks sake, Go to church tell someone who fucking cares, stop thinking you're all high and mighty because you don't take drugs. When was the last time you popped a pill for a headache? Drank tap water, took Antibiotics for a virus...OH did you know that some antibiotics are mind-altering?? There are so many drugs out there my friend and I am sure you have probably ingested at least 20 of them just today. Say do you ever use nutrasweet? Drink diet coke? Ingested phenylketonurics, proven fact they give you cancer, and potentially alzimers disease. Do you use deodorant with Aluminum in it, linked to Alzimers too you know..there are a fuck load of drugs out there, that fuck with people bodies, some that you ingest without even knowing it and could be potentially more harmful then if you just popped on pill in your life, like one tab or smoked a joint. Please can you do some research and become educated about this before you go off at people who have fare more experience in this field then you have or by the sounds of things will ever have. Just open your ears, and mind and respect your fellow beings or Go Back to your HIVE bee....keep working for that queen. To that extent I accept and respect your opinion Raymond and thats cool. But I am not a pussy pimple on this planet and I refuse to think of myself as one.Oh by the way Ray....do you drink coffee? Tea? Eat chocolate? Caffeine powerful stimulant...See drugs are everywhere whether you like it or not, they are here, and they are here to stay...------------------ ~*~ Katinca ~*~[This message has been edited by Katinca (edited 15 February 2002).]

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow this is turning out to be an all agianst me sort of topic. You have no idea how much this boosts my ego. Thanks peoples. I never called you an E addict nor did I ever imply that you used it. If I were really high and mighty then this would be a dream of mine and since it deffenatly isnt I am not all high and mighty. I guess that post puts me in my place,</sarcasim> no sence argueing with a professional drug pusher. I must say though that I have never poped asprin for the shire joy of doing it. I am highly addicted to caffine but then again I have been known to go months at a time with out it. I do believe my record was 3 months. Yep I am just a worker bee who gathers pollin instead of sniffing insecticide. Looks like I am not on board with the "bee" pop culture. I would actually like to know what anitbiotics are mind altering so I can take that up with my Corpman and see what he thinks about it. I guess my over use with the "F" word has gotten to you. I have corrupted your little brain. Obviusly you never respected my opinion. Your drugs are for you and not for me. But keep breaking your laws go to jail get gang raped whatever. Personally I have no desire to do that. If you can do the time feel free to do the crime. Just because it feels good does not make it right. I love how nobody has said anything on the fact that what you do when you rave or sit at home you are comitting a crime. I think that it would be funny if your next rave gets raided by the cops and a good majority of the Hopers go to jail. Maybe then you might realise there are other effects of drugs besides your high. I bet a cold set of handcuffs would ruin your night of fun not to mention sober you up a bit.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I really must apologyse for "beeing"
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such and asshole to some people, I guess the truth just hurts them a little more than they care to be hurt. ------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:Ok back on the topic of legalisation...Ray - if some less potent drugs eg pot were legalised then it wouldn't be considered breaking the law, less people in gaol, less taxes wasted on chasing people down who may grow a plant or two for their own use.The origins of laws are important. If we accept all laws without thought then we may as well live in a dictatorship. If you only get to influence the laws every 4 years during an election, then it is not much of a democratic system. Identification of obsolete laws or laws that do not work for the betterment of a society is part of our responsibility in a society.Challenging laws that we disagree with is right. I believe that the First amendment to the US Constitution in the Bill of Rights allows:"...to petition the government for a redress of grievances."One last point, black and white beliefs are what prevents growth and development of new thought. Example in point: it would be extremely difficult for you to change your mind (if you chose to) in this argument, even if supplied with undeniable evidence that refutes your arguments. However adoption of a grey (I prefer colourful) perspective of the argument allows for much more lateral movement, acceptance and tolerance.From some of your posts Ray, I get the impression that you are a spiritual guy. How about showing some of that compassion that pretty well all religions teach...

Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut


Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:ray you little cutie, buy the way thanks for the compliment on the spelling, it makes me feel all rosie inside. but your lame arsed words aren't hurting me baby, but i fear they're hurting you, so take it easy big guy, and take a few more shots at the o sam a posters you and your shooting buddies love to ...... or what ever it is you do.i just have one question, when you write these distored, messed up gibberisherly insane posts, like that of a mad man on drugs, does any part/parts of your body turn bright red.sorry ray you crack me up. like your older no friends 'mp' buddy tanzen, all i'd like to say is i'd prefre no to discuss the topic of drugs who hasn't had a full on drug problem, cos you just would understand, you dumb arse!!!!!love peace and happiness to all those in the armed services, except ray and his buddy tanzen


Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I think this discussion, if it ever was one, is over. And not just because it's turning into a slanging match and an all against one. Shouting and insults may make you feel better, but it's a pretty shallow relief.And remember, this is an open forum for appropriate discussion, not a school playground. If you want to address somebody personally or insult somebody then please do so through email. If you want to insult somebody openly then please grow up.Ray has his opinions, and he's entitled to them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Ray is a collection of gross assumptions, generalisations, misconceptions and stubbornness (Ray - we share one thing, stubbornness
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). We tend to face this everyday in the world. And I don't think Ray is going to change his mind.However you probably can change other people's attitudes slowly and calmly, vote for those who are more open minded and liberal, and one day this may come round to affect Ray.Funnily enough, I think everyone is going to step away from this discussion thinking they're vindicated. That's a pretty good conclusion. Lets leave it there!P.S. Anyone want to make me a mod for these intense discussion. I love them!!! And I don't think I swore once!



_Stix_
_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land
Member Since: 15th Feb 2002
Total posts: 2419
Posted:Hi AllI'm new, so I have no comment on teh previous posts, however <everyone is intitled to their own opinion>I would like to say that I do take drugs on a regular basis.. pot, E, Coke and MDMA - and a few others... my NO NO's are heroin, acid, any anything else that is nasty..;0))But my belief is that if I harm no-one else and can still hold down my job, I'm not doing anything wrong...So there you go...my 2 pence worth.. if it fucks you up then stop, if it don't - live your life and have fun.I work hard and party harder..Best wishes,RedDragon......

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..


Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:Im not particularly offended except on behalf of other people. I am not convinced by the apology and normally i wouldn't give a flying fig. HOWEVERit seems particularly stupid that someone who's professing the virtues of self-esteem and self control can't contain his temper and expresses a desire to "wipe out" a significantly large proportion of the population based on an apparently rather narrow view of the world. given the fact that said person is in the military and in a position of so-called-public-entrusted-power, i find that particularly disturbing. do you always represent your country like that when someone makes you angry or says something you disagree with? I agree, discussion over, its gone the same way the last one did. I'm almost ashamed to be one of the non-drug using ones now.Pere


Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:dom your clean cut style is your own, to rate it as any better than 'personal slinging' match as you say takes away a richness to the discussion. i don't think we are just intelligtual ideas, abit of biffage is good for everone, at least its honest and can get ones real deepseated opinoins, like young rays on things rather than the covering bullish you seem so good at offering up, you need to start feling a few emotions, or did they all die when you got educated.if you think your're changing minds and thats what wer're discussing things for then thats all good. but most of us aren't going to change our minds about things, have you on this topic? yeah i'm sure you have!!! wer're just gonna change the way we express it, whippty fuckin do. i can talk to the wall all i fuckin like. sorrry mods i'm getting pissed at the self rightous crap i'm forced to read here, yeah maybe i should go else where.love and cuddles dan


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:OK I am going to keep my cool on this one I prommise you that. I have changed my mind on a certain aspect of this topic. Itsgottab I was going to hold you as a non-factor and to me you are, but you go after someone I call a friend then your are just an antagonist. You are just hear to start a fight. Well not this time. I forget the name of the movie but I will hurl one last insult at you. "suck an elf!" I dont think that I mentioned self controle for that is definatly something that I posess very little of when it comes to my temper. I must ask how does doing drugs represent your contry? I think that with my anger and your drug use we represent in an equal negitive light.RedDragon no offence I have nothing to reply to your post.Heck Dom I'd vote ya as a Mod. Dom like I said I think of you as a friend, so everythink that you said I take as a compliment.Bendy, yes challenge the laws but you do not challenge them by breaking them. You meet in court or a similer surrounding and you debate your side kinda like we are here. Hopfully with out the bickering.
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Going back to one of my other ployes, if we made murder leagle would that increase or decrease the amout of murders? I feel that drug dealers are the same as murderers even if the drugs they sell are "harmless when you have studied enough".Peregrine, just say my name. I wont be offended and your not keeping any big secret by saying thinks like "said person". Dude/dudet (whatever) your a non-factor. But let me get this right you are ashamed to be a non-drug user. Well when men and women purpusly attempt suicide just for a few hours of fun if makes me ashamed to be human.And like I said before I could care less if I offended anybody, the truth hurts. So end the disscussion if you wish call a Mod have em close it. I wont deleate it nore will I ask that any Mod deleate it. I think that some important things have been said for both sides and others might just posible benifit form this topic.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


_Stix_
_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land
Member Since: 15th Feb 2002
Total posts: 2419
Posted:None taken
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as I said it was just my 2 pence..


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..


Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:itsgottab, I am a Vulcan. I have no emotions. To have emotions is to be flawed. I propose a culture dedicated to the complete mastery of logic, suppressing our violent emotions in nearly every aspect of our existence.
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Seriously, my theory is that on a typed medium it's very hard, if not impossible at times, to get across true emotion and any theatrical pouts, so I don't try. Online and in person if you present yourself clearly and with a reasonable approach you tend to get through most people's natural resistance to harsh foreign ideas. Other people like yourself and people like Fraser Clark (anyone else know him? seems people here might have) reckon that by flooding people with your opinion in a hyped up and emotional form you'll eventually get through.Ray serves as proof of my theory. Although we disagree wildly over sensitive topics I'm sure if we met we'd sit down and talk for hours. We might not change each other's views too much, and we'd get a bit emotional too, but it would be interesting and we wouldn't resort to a slanging match (mainly because he'd probably lay me out cold!
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)Lastly - a Capitol K song contains the words "There's so much oxygen. It just makes you really high!" a sample taken from high above the Borneo rainforest. If any of you have ever been on oxygen you'll know it's a revelation. As Radiohead have stated "Oxygen should be regarded as a drug"!



TEK829
member
Location: Latham, NY, USA
Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 29
Posted:Oxygen is a drug. It can only be administered with a physician's order, and overdose of it can cause some people to stop breathing (besides dangers to newborns...). Oxygen is a very controlled substance.No, really...
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Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs at you. It's your choi


nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:Dom, I highly respect your patience and diligence with someone like Ray who is disrespectful of a lot of people, aggressive and rude. I agree with you, the calm and reflected way to present your idea will meet less resistance and allow a better quality debate. Ray has indeed a very narrow-minded view of things. If having a black and white view of the world makes you feel better, fine. But don't pretend to "debate" things with such ignorant statements as the ones you sometimes make, bad generalizations and sad sterotyping.A debate over drugs here is very difficult since people tend to group apples and oranges together. When you (Ray) say things like "get off of drugs and you'll have a better life" (not quoting exactly, sorry), it would probably apply if you talked to a crack addit or a heroin junkie. If you address this to a recreational user who smokes pot a couple of times a week, experimented with psychedelics to get some insight and a different perception of reality, maybe even someone who does harder drugs occasionally and leads a normal life, then your comments are totally irrelevant.On another note, you act surprised that everyone is coming down on you. That's hypocrisy. It's as if I was posting on an army bulleting board something saying "Let's stop this crazy and so-called 'war' in Afghanistan, all sit around the bonfire, smoke up and chill and it'll be all good, brothers" and then commenting on everybody going after me and calling me a knucklehead hippie (I made this analogy because anyone who has been on this board long enough knows the majority of people here hold progressive views ; on the other side, I would guess that an army environment is more conservative and reactionary). OK, now besides all these remarks on the form and not the content.... Your first angry post on this page disgusted me. I understand that itsgottab's post would anger you, but you're not making your case better by putting everyone in the same basket because ONE pro-drug person attacked you directly. I understand you are not on this board to make friends and don't care who you offend. But PLEASE try to put your temper on the side when you reply to topics like this because the debate is then out the door, when this is a very interesting topic and could have resulted in a productive discussion.Too bad.Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org


toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:Everyone seems to be taking this much, much more personally than the Anti War thing. I thought to myself, why? The only thing I could come up with is that while the majority of people posting here never have participated in a war, or killing someone,whereas, most of us have used, or been around drugs. It's my belief that dialogue is great, even if it's reduced to a shouting match. The reason I believe this, is because it shows us just how much work must be done to gain acceptance of the general public. I personally am tired of being afraid for my future, and there is no reason I should be. I have used drugs (illegal) for years, and yet to have harmed anyone. It might be argued that I hurt someone by participating in black market trade, where an entepreneur was killed because he couldn't pay his debt, or because he was greedy. But to counter this, I would argue that it's the fact that it's illegal that causes the trouble. If it were legal, then that person would declare bankruptcy, and no one would fund him in the future, rather than that person be murdered as an example of "don't do this".Thank you Raymond. As much as I might not like what you say, you give me GREAT insight into the psyche of the average person. No matter what I do, or how reasonable or tolerant I think I am, you give me food for thought. How can I persuade people like you to listen to what I say, understand what I'm saying and finally agree that I have valid reasons for my beliefs? If we (drug users) can persuade people like you (people that base decisions from emotion, rather than logic) than our work will be done. Please read back over the posts I have written. Here's a summary: People are people, not perfect. Regardless of how hard the common person tries, there will always be ills faced by man. The culmination of these ills manifest themselves in different pyschological disorders. Some people are anorexic, bulemic, alcoholics and some are just plain nuts. The outward symptoms exhibited of these people is caused by underlying mental issues. Your inhumane views of drug abuse are disturbing, as the underlying causes of drug abuse are the same underlying causes of most of the other pyschological disorders. There is a diffence between drug use, and drug ABUSE! Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It's argueable that everyone in the world needs help, sometime, of some kind. Don't be so high and mighty to think that you won't need help.So, why don't we work on the underlying issues of drug abuse and other pyschological disorders, rather than the physical manifestation of those disorders? I am an adult, and I believe that I am responsible enough to handle anything I choose, and you know what, if something happens to me, who is responsible? ME? or the Drug dealer? The US has led the world in blaming individuals problems on other people for too long (IE, my dad didn't pay enough attention to me; I was picked on everyday at school, so I randomly killed people to make me feel better).There are a lot of people on the road that I feel don't deserve to drive, and yet, they're on the road everyday, endangering my life.It's apparent that you have some issues to work out (from your statement about alcoholism, and overstatment of how good your self image is), so please don't believe that the rest of the world has your issues, to make yourself feel better. Believe it or not, there are people that DO responsibly take drugs, without ever suffering adverse effects. But please don't think that because you can't handle it, that no-one should. If we walk down that road long enough, we'll have to nickname our gov't the Taliban
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Peace, man, Peace!!



Burnt
member
Location: Sydney
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 13
Posted:If people who take drugs are bad, selfish people and legalising drugs will cause many of them to die, isn't legalising drugs a good idea?
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Play with fire and you might get Burnt.


MYMA
member
Location: blah, Togo
Member Since: 16th Feb 2002
Total posts: 23
Posted:I really don't care either way, but I don't think drugs (at least most of them) will never, or not for a LONG time be legalized because then it would seem as if the goverment is saying that drugs are good/ok.

*Live as if you were to die tomarrow, learn as if you were to live forever* ~Mahatma Ghandi*Imagination is more important than knowledge*~Albert Einstein*dream*


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Nomad, I respect what you said. I just have one request and this goes for everyone on the board. Ladies and gents I am not in the army. I am a Marine, please stop trying to mix the two. I know that in some countries they see no differance in the two, none the less it is a rather large insult to call a Marine a soldier. Thank you I hope yall can understand that request.
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I was not surprised that people were comming down on me. It was not the first and it wont be the last so in all honesty it kinda boosted my ego a bit. Thanks yall. I do have a very narrow minded approach to things thats why I have stayed out of trouble I see the world as right or wrong. Thats just the way I am.I would like to point out that though I am quick to anger I am also rather quick to calm down. That first post of anger lasted a while only because it took me a while to write.
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I was back to my happy go lucky self about half way through that post.Dom, little secret bud I am not as apt to strike someone as I am to unleash a whirlwind of cuss words.Toneman, come again on your last sentance I guess my limited intelligence just didnt understand what you said.
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I do not believe that I have any psycological disorder. Unless a quick temper is one. In that case lock me up and hand me my stait jacket its time for me to look at all the pretty sounds. ------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:First of all, as a Mod...watch it people, some of you are on thin ground here. Clean up the language and treat people with respect, they in turn will give it back. If you feel you can not, then leave the conversation please. Thank you very much to those who have kept their cool and been extremely respectful. It is appreciated.That being said, you will not have anymore babies being born retarded due to drug using mothers Ray? (paraphrasing)1. When did you have a baby yourself? 2. I don't do drugs, drink or smoke but because I went into a hospital as a single mother to give birth to my son, they called me a liar when I told them I didn't do drugs. They did drug work ups on both my infant son and myself and then tried to charge me for it because they didn't believe me. I really don't think that was fair or nice. And why? Because I was an underweight, single, young *looking* woman. It was people who were closed minded who put me through that humiliation and even much more grief after (they wouldn't give my son to me). Attitudes based on the ideas that there are absolutes are what codemns the innocent.3. I was born addicted to cocaine. My biological mother (I was adopted eventually)was a junkie, and an alocoholic by the time she was 14, when she gave birth to me! Do you think I am retarded Ray? According to your statement I should be. My adoptive parents had over 44 foster children over the course of years. ALL of them were somehow addicted or afflicted. And while some had issues, none of them were retarded! Did you know the second hand smoke of the cigarettes you smoke can effect a fetus? Alcohol effects a fetus far more than pot. I was severely offended by this statement Ray, ****severely****.
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For the first four years of my life I went to drug parties with my biological mother, and I still have memories of it! And do you know what? I was never half as frightened then as when I am now around someone drunk on Jack Daniels. I know many people who do (natural)drugs, who drink and of all those people in my life, none have died from drug use but many have died from alcohol, including close friends and family members.4. Based on a scientific study at Cornell University something must be done for over 21 days *consecutively* before it is deemed as habitual, unless it otherwise has addictive properties. Pot and shrooms have been found to have nothing addictive in their chemical composition. Neither does tobacco, which is why there are additives n cigarettes which make them addictive.As for legalization of drugs....they would be taxed, assuredly. I don't think PCP, heroine or such should ever be widely available. As for pot, I think it would be concidered a major competitor with tobacco honestly. I also think that, like tobacco, it would have additives. Regulating is good in theory, as with alcohol, tobacco, etc....but while needed for precedent, it doesn't work. Neither is making it illegal. Unless these drugs were wiped from the face of the planet, there is no logical solution. Legalising makes money from it, regulates the potency and quality, and can attempt to regulate who it is available to. In this respect, it will also help regulate the scum who import illegally and deal shadily.Education at home is paramount. As a parent I can say it is frightening to face down the prospects, but I have already started with my son. He will tell you that alcohol is a "treat" for adults and like chocolate shouldn't be had all the time. He thinks cigarettes are yucky and that drugs make you sick. I figure I start him young without preaching, that I have less to fear. I raise my son with the premise that everything he does is a choice, some choices are better than others and that there are consequences to all choices. "Just say no" is obviously ineffective. If it worked, no child would be drinking, having sex, or any other such thing.Driving the car that kills is a choice. Taking a pill is a choice. Everything we do is a choice and only we can make these decisions for ourselves, knowing they effect ourselves and others. If someone can deal with the possibility that they can have a problem with their car that could kill, then they drive. I love to drive. I could drop dead tomorrow from a fire breathing incedent, orphaning my son. I made the choice to work that hard. I choose to not pop a pill, because I am a control freak in my own life, and I know that drugs tend to make people lose a bit of control. That is my educated choice.Now, about drug addictions and drugs killing, it isn't reserved to the illegal. My friend was just released from the hospital this weekend. She had a severe mental breakdown which triggered a nervous breakdown because her doctor prescribed drugs that reacted very badly with each other in her system. These were drugs she was told to take! She could have died because her doctor told her to take these and call him in the morning.How many people have you seen strung out on prescripted valium or morphine? It ain't pretty. Medicinal pot would have the same effect, enhance the hunger, kill the pain, allow them to sleep, without the addictive side effects. We, as a society, condone this and so we create the addicts and the abusers complete with permission slips from educated professionals! First we create the beast and then punish them for acting as we have conditioned them? I think not.Many of us spin in a circle of potentially deadly fire to get that euphoric feeling, that ethereal feeling. We are damaging the world around us, potentially the spectators and ourselves for that "high". It is there. One way or another it is there.Legalization offers less risk with greater regulation but what then will be used as a rebellion?Now to the other side. Did you know in Arkansas it is illegal to say the state name "Ar-Kansas"? Did you know in Rhode Island it is illegal to walk down the street on a Sunday with an ice cream cone in your back pocket? But drinking alcohol is legal, even if you get shitfaced and hurt yourself?Just because it is legal does not make it right. Just because it is illegal does not mean it makes sense. There are no absolutes.And Ray, do not put your views up on abortion while saying you will only debate it over email. That is also very hyprocritical and offensive, especially if someone disagrees. ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Katinca, you want my story, seen as how you think that I am some mindless drone on the bandwagon. Here tell me if I am right or wrong on my opinion that drugs kill? I was the little brother taggin along with my sister and her boyfriend at some big high school party. (I was in Jr. High) to make this long night short for the readers, my sister and her boyfriend took some designer drug, they got so jacked up it wasnt even cool, her boyfriend ended up hanging himself from the balchony at the house and my sister ended up in a coma for 4 days, minor brain damage. She doesnt remember things to well now and she has to write a list every day of where she needs to go and what she has to do. Her long term memory is fine but short term is shot to hell. The docs never found out what it was all they said was it was some desighner. I on the otherhand started drinking a week later yep 15 years old and I bet by the time I was 16 I could drink everyone on the board under the table. So tell me something is that good enough to cure your curiosity. If you dont believe me do a serch on a Butler Pa. high school student that hung himself in 1995, you might find something. Dont tell me your sorry, cuz you aint, and dont say you understand cuz you dont. I may have never done the drugs but I sure as hell have seen the effects. So Mrs Pro Drugpusher kiss my ass I have seen the front lines of the drug war, I am still there. In 3 years when I am out of the Corps I am still considering college then going for the DEA. Who knows I might get to give some of you pretty new bracelets complete with lock and key. I'll handle my end, you just handle yours.Now you see why I feel so strongly about some issues. I dont have a horor story about everything but I am sure that I can find a few to back any opinion that I have.Pele, you would make a good Drill Instructer.I havnt had my rear chewed like that for quite some time, I do my job well and dont get much grief form people. Needless to say this board is not my job. Any hoo, to the issues that you brought up.What can I say, you got lucky, your natural mother got lucky and your adopted parents are an awesome couple for taking kids in and helping them grow up to be intelligent adults. First off I never said that all pregnent women who use crack give birth to retarded babies. There are afew lucky people out there, what do you want me to say. Gee Pele I was wrong there is no such thing a someone giving birth to a still born because of their drug use during their pregnancy. If that is what you want me to say then I will but none the less its a lie. You are a victim in a particually nasty war, I am sorry you had that happen but dont take your mothers mistakes out on me. You were a lucky one but for every one of you there are probably atleast 10 that arnt. I hope my numbers are exagerated I really do. I am sorry that people in the hospital were so rude to you. That was uncalled for. I am sorry that I was off on the 30 day thing I was giving people more credit than they deserve. Opps shame on me. Those docs that jacked up your friends perscription should have their licence revoked. People do make mistakes and theirs could have been costly. That is a definate tragidy. I applaude your efforts on how you wish to raise your son. Will leagalisation fix all the problems no, I must admit however neither will harsher punishments. If you have someone that is rebelling and you take away what they are rebelling with they will find something else. Look at me, I went from never owning a gun to being responsible for 1000s of weapons and carying a 9mm with me all day. That is not a rebellion but the fact that I am in the Corps was a rebellion. I just find the gun thing ironic."Just because it is legal does not make it right. Just because it is illegal does not mean it makes sense. There are no absolutes."Your first two sentances were right but your 3rd lacked one important thing, the truth. The truth is the only absolute, the truth can never be a lie, the truth can never be wrong. It is absolute.As for abortion, fine make a topic I will be more than glad to participate, untill then e-mail me if you wanna talk about it with me. ------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ray, I would like to say, your story is sad, really sad. It's a pointless waste of life. However can you not accept that this is an exception, not the norm. Tonight a million people in the UK will take some form of drug. A million people will not die tonight.As the son of an alcoholic I know how painful alcoholism can be. However I do drink myself, and I don't attack everyone who drinks as a family wrecking alcoholic. A survey of a dozen does not make for an accurate representation.How, Ray, work with me on this one. I may have something, you never know. You're going to jump when I make the comparison, but think about it. Don't post a reply for a while, think about it.First lets limit ourselves to the top drug: Hash. No, E, crack, heroin, acid, etc.. being talked about here.You are against the legalisation of hash and the selling of hash in controlled situations.You agree than banning cigarettes and alcohol is not going to happen (even if you think maybe it should).Now, if hash was sold there is the possibility that the buyer will use it irresponsibly. However it would only be a small percentage of people who would smoke too much and mess themselves up. The figure would probably be less than those currently messed up on alcohol as the usage would be less and the effects are very different. Therefore the effects of legalising hash are comparable to those of legal alcohol. Do you agree with this?You are a supporter of the right to bear arms and the ability to purchase guns.The same applies to guns as to drugs. There is the chance that a gun bought by someone, with a license, will be used by that person, or someone else, in an armed robbery, rape, murder or mass murder. If people are trusted with lethal weapons, do you not think that they could be trusted with an bit of hash?The arguments above, your opinion on them.Thanks, Dom.


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:SInce you are a marine, I have to take the drill sergent thing as a compliment! Thanks!
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Because of that though, aren't you glad you aren't my son!
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My biggest issue is your gross generalizations, Ray. You seem to find absolutes in everything, and there is where my issue lies. Yes, there are stillborns from drugs, as there are from alcohol. There are stillborns from women's bodies being ill formed, from stress, from over exercising, from complications unforseen. Where you see drugs as the major reason, you overlook the fact that there are many, many. Should we then outlaw all reasons? Healthnuts all the time miscarry or have stillborns for fear of getting "fat", should exercise then be illegal as well? In fact I was told my son was to be a stillborn because his heartbeat was shielded by my organs during a sonogram. Imagine my surprise. Life is as it is, the way we live is a choice, and what law or posters or statistics say generally don't sway people alot in their choices. That is all I was saying.Also the truth is subjective. Your truth verses my truth is based on the culmination of perception, experience, knowledge and wisdom. Even scientific theories and truths seem to change with technology. It used to be "truth" that the world was flat. It used to be "truth" that we were the center of the universe. It was "truth" that there wasn't life before us (ie dinosaurs). It was "truth" that people couldn't fly or be airborne. (I will stop there)The only real truth/absolute is that we will all die someday and with technology in it's present incarnation, even that is subject to change.(Based on that, I am going to live forever. So far, so good!
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)------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, good point. Right now I am going to fly through these posts becuase I have something important to do.Pele DRILL INSTRUCTER THE ARMY HAS DRILL SERGENTS I AM A MARINE, DRILL INSTRUCTER.
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Write more later.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ok Pele, those "truths" that you mentiond were not truths, they were all preceptions. The world has always been round the world has always gone around the sun and the universe is to massive right now to even guess where the center is so the truth has yet to be found about that. Biblicly there was no human life before good ole dino. Man was created afterwords. I am sure there are many many reasons why babies die still in the womb. My point was made and confirmed by you.Dom, I think just about everyone knows the ramafications of getting shot, pain, loss of blood, possibly death. A gun is designed to cause bodily harm. We do not trust people with guns, that is why they must obtain a licence to get that gun, also if someone is convicted of a serius crime such as the ones you listed they become banned from ever getting a licence again. This does not make it impossible to get a gun but it does make it a bit harder.If a person gets busted for hash or whatever, it does not become harder for them to get it they just become alittle more aware of their surroundings before they buy it.None the less good points to by all and Pele let me give you a bit of sad news, if you were a drill instructer you would not see your son as much as you would like, maybe once a week for 3 years, and when you do go home you will be too exausted to play with him or enjoy his company. It is a big sacrifice for a Marine to become a drill instructer, and thats why they are the best Marines out there. More Marines commit suicide and get devorced than any other branch of the service.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Hence why I am not in any military service, and why one branch is just as good as the other to me (not for lack of their trying to recruit me though!) and your arguing your own compliment is a moot point.
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Sorry but I don't share the individual pride view point. If you are in the military, *any* branch, you are doing the country a distinct service and you are part of a team of people whose common thread is patriotism and doing what they can for their country.Viewing any one branch as better than the others is just blindly egotistical and silly in my eyes! And before you say it, I have family members and friends who were in all the different branches, including navy seals, green berets and such, none of whom have the ego about that which you seem to have about overseeing guns. No offence, but I didn't support your statements and I am saddened that you read that into my statement. You say there are absolute truths, I say no, it is all perception, and that what we know as absolute truth changes. We now know the world is round, but back when, people believed so much that it was flat that they limited their journeys accordingly, therefore to them it was truth it was flat. Just as to you it is truth all drugs are evil, whereas others don't see it that way. It is an agree to disagree situation. No one is going to win and no legislation is going to be changed based on this discussion.
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And please don't play the bible card, nothing is proven as truth in that either, which is why it is called "faith".Based on the topic at hand, which we seem to have fallen away from, I am pro legalization of hemp, with regulations for public use, but more widely available for medicinal use now. That is my opinion. I also just re-noticed that you started this topic Ray. When starting a topic I am assuming you want to hear what people have to say and instead you have argued (not debated, I was on a debate team in college, I know what it means to debate) every single point brought up without truly recognising there are good points on both sides, and you also resorted to being just downright disrespectful to some people. Please refrain in the future from beginning topics like this if you have no intention of listening to responses with an open mind. It simply causes too much negativity. Please don't bother responding Ray. I am not upset but I also don't enjoy having my words manipulated, nor do I enjoy beating my head on a wall and so am out of this except to mod. ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 18 February 2002).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Katinca
Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia
Member Since: 9th May 2001
Total posts: 693
Posted:Pele, Ray, Dom...I think that is all we can do here. We all have very strong opinions on this topic, and believe strongly in what we think. No of our arguments on either side of the fence is going to change the other side. So we may as well agree to disagree. I guess at least then there is tolerance, and respect both ways.------------------ ~*~ Katinca ~*~

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Pele, your familey members are not you. They may not have shown a sence of pride to you and their familey members, but I can personaly garunte you that there was a large sence of pride. Personally I feel that the American armd forces have the best of all services, the US Army is the best The US Air Force is the best and the US Navy is the best, mind you that they are not the biggest but they are the best. Untill you honestly get to know a Marine or even the Marine Corps you will not understand why we have such a great sence of pride.About its my post, I started this post for S&G (shits and giggles). I did not start it to be all serius, I just wanted to have a bit of fun and that is what I have done. I have even more fun when my temper flares, guess what thats just me. I have continually said that there are good points on both sides. Ohh and I will bring my religion where ever I see fit, now granted I have my sins and those are mine and I must deal with them I dont anyone to say that I am not a good Christian, I aint, but I am working on it. I did see you last sentance but I just dont care.I did not set out to change anybodys mind, but if the board feels that this topic should end then lets let it end with the same persons post that started it.Thank you all for participating, I have had fun and I have learned a bit, my opinion stands but thats my choice. Once again thank you all.Raymund Phule------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey Ray, I posted my (shits and giggles) reply early, but this thread has gone far beyond the drug debate. Itsgottab is entitled to an opinion, and I for one can't look through the anger in your posts. If anything the anger in your posts reinforces the military "meathead" stereotype. You seem to have some serious issues, and I would suggest that some anger therapy for your temper would be a good start. I really hope you have learnt something from this thread, but I doubt it.
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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually, Stone, you would be suprised to know what I have learned. Anger theropy, hehe. I get all the theropy I need on the range. Any how, don't worry your pretty little head of what I can learn and what I can't. This is some of what I have learned, the people who are in favor of drug use (leagle or ill) will not change their mind, maybe they will want to when it's to late they will, but then we would never know. I for one have learned that I should not bring up a topic unless I am ready to be ridiculed for my stance on it. I have not done enough research, and if you mean by research taken drugs then I will never do any research. None the less nobody will ever change their mind because they are to stubbern and nobody on this topic really wants to listen to the other side. You had better believe that I deffinatly included myself in that catagory of nobody. I do though appriciate you words Stone. I do enjoy it when people agree with those who mock me and say foul things about myself and the men incharge of my training. I do not want you or anyone to be on my side on the account of what I said to Itsgottab, no that would be asking alittle much of 99.9% of all mankind. Thank you for your opinion, have a good day. [image]http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif">------------------[/image] By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


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