Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I just re-read Charles response about Raversurge.quote :"just coz one person isn't respecting someone, doesn't give any of us liscence to stop respecting them."I hear you, wise man
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Yet I am not sure how easy this is to keep respecting / listening to someone who is shouting at you or insulting you.I'm usually OK at it (not as good as some people I know, but OK) and then they hit the sour point and I get really overwhelmed ... It was not the case with Surge, but it sometimes is in other occasions (poiposition 's thread about maori culture).Tallica got a point saying we should listen beyond the words... yet I can't help thinking that anything, even the most interesting theory is NOT for me if it is conveyed in anger or disrespect.But maybe it is vain and superficial to care only for the form and not listen to the content (Nomad... please help me with the translation : la forme et le fond... how do you say that in english ?) ? or maybe it is essential to have proper manners... I am not talking about a cultural expression of politeness (like you should take off your shoes in Japan, not in France, etc...) rather a transcultural form of "politeness of the heart / soul" in which I beleive (naive ?)...I don't know... just wondering...looking forward to hearing your comments.Shine onCassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:IT is the hardest thing on earth not to be effected by negativity and anger. Like you say, eventually "they hit the sour point and I get really overwhelmed ..."Howevr much we try, the energy usually invades ours and we start to feel the same. An amazing friend of mine lives totally in the power of love (something i attempt to do!). but he amazes me how he can stop the fiercest bull in his tracks in the most loving, respectful way - out of love for that person and not out of his ego. I believe that you can respect someone elses views but if they are taking/changing your energy and you cant control it, then it is better to walk away. IMHO sometimes walking away is "politeness of the soul/heart".

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Respect is very hard to achieve if the other person is coming across as showing no respect for anyone else. The problem with a lot of young people today (oh god, old fart time!) is that they start off thinking they're superior to everyone else, and they're owed something by everyone. When I was young (and again!) I was taught to start off treating everyone and everything with respect, and that's something I think I still do everyday, until someone shows they're not worthy of my effort. I've met the most awful people, who've tried to wind me up or get me to fight with them, and almost every time I've walked away, and won that way."But maybe it is vain and superficial to care only for the form and not listen to the content " - I disagree. The form is also the content and speaks volumes about a person. I judge people on how they come across, we all do. There is a point to Raversurge's posts, but it's hidden in pile of illiterate ramblings about how good he and his NYC crew are (he seems to forget the millions of other people in the city) and how bad everyone else is. He comes over as childish, arrogant, self centred, egotistical, bolschy, immature, small minded, etc... I could go on, preferably with a thesaurus, but I won't.If you check the Anti War thread you'll see a heated discussion with people with strongly opposing opinions, and mostly a lot of respectful, sensible posts. I may not agree with someone like RaymundPhule, but I respect him for his own opinions. Check one of Raversurge's posts and you'll see someone who gives ravers, children and New Yorkers a bad name.So, basically I find it hard to be nice to someone, and take them seriously, if they act such a terrible manner.

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tallicaburton
member
Location: Troy, NY for school (Austin, T...
Member Since: 23rd Nov 2001
Total posts: 51
Posted:I don't agree with you dom. I think when you were a kid there were other kids as rude and disrespectful as there "are now". And there are respectful and loving kids now, I know them. Me and a friend helped a janitor move some chairs halfway across the school (this poor old lady was trying to move 3 stacks), and another student joined us at one point, one neither of us knew. I really don't think things change too much over the years, people wise. THere are always good people, and bad people. Those school shootings in the U.S., I think, are more a result of having guns, then of other things. It's a whole lot harder to kill a dozen other kids with a shovel. THings ARE different, lots of kids are desensitized, or so it seems (I think I'm decensitized as well), I think lots of things remain the same....In this past year I have started trying to greet everything with love. When I'm driving, when I'm walking in the halls, when I'm at the store. I feel rather naive, because I realize there are people who will take advantage of me. I've been stopping my old vw bug and pushing cars out of the road, I've done this two times in the past 30 days, and I would like to do it more. Maybe that isn't impressive, but I just want to reach out to someone. There is another mind as complex and huge as mine in each person I see. I'm only 18, but I try to respect and love everyone, even when they are mean or rude. I'm not very good at it, with my family I am by far my worst, I'm a good kid, but when my mom asks me to do something sometimes I get irate, but overall I'm pretty positive about this. I used to have major issues with depression, but ever since I started trying to love people, it has stopped for the most part. I also used to be sarcastic and pretty cynical, but that was just a front, and I've quit for the most part. I was a gentleman as a little kid, and I'm trying to become one again, but kids are so loving and nonjudgemental it'll take some work. I still tend to ignore, and not be friendly with, people in my classes who act full of themselves and are mean to others, but I'm trying my best to recognize them as who they really are. There is a light in all of us, a mind, and sometimes we may say or do things to try to make certain impressions. That's okay, I'll just try to love the person underneath that. I'm not very good at it, but I'm trying real hard. It may be naive, but, I feel happier because of it. Actions speak louder then words, and the creed above is something I can only try to keep in even the most loose and generous interpretation. Se la vi. I'll do my best. Peace out you guys! -john

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Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:Take care, TCBsock it to me, sock it to me,sock it to me, sock it to me.....*ahem*I think respecting a person's opinion and not insulting them all comes down to simple human interaction. Nothing can be achieved by being rude except cause pointless trouble. Although some situations can push people to act like they normally wouldn't, this rashness doesn't last.cassandra - "Politeness of the heart" is not nave, but it is something I wish more people thought about.------------------Where's the foetus gonna gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?

Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:yeah, I was a bit too all encompassing with my 'young people these days' comments, but where I live I've definitely noticed youngsters causing more trouble than 5/6 years ago. However I'm well aware that not all teenagers are bundles of pure evil
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tallicaburton, restoring my faith in teenagers....


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Show great respect for the world and it's fellow inhabitants.I try to live by this. R xx

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:polite for everyone, it's good manners.respect is earned, IMO.Pere

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N8
member
Location: NY, USA
Member Since: 10th Apr 2001
Total posts: 336
Posted:Really not much else to say here, but I figure I'll throw in my .02$I've always lived by a notion of give and you shall recieve.Raversurge gave no respect to us... Nor did he say anything that would warrant great respect. I think that respect should be earned not demanded. People are more eager to respect you if there is merit to back it.------------------Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

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N8
member
Location: NY, USA
Member Since: 10th Apr 2001
Total posts: 336
Posted:Word Pere, word.

Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think one of my favorite things about HoP is that it is an open forum. We can see how we all respond to respect and disrespect. If someone is disrespectful, everyone can see it. It's not a game of "he says/she says", the persons words are there for all to see.If people are using disrespectful language, or not respecting the rules of the board, they look foolish before anyone ever needs to classify them as such.I only encourage others to see who IS being respectful. Look at who is standing up for what you do believe in and support them. Don't judge cities or countries, judge individuals for their actions. And realize that you will be judged for your response as well.Don't let the negative eclipse the positive.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:Hey frenchie [image]http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif">[/image]Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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Marlboro
member
Location: St.Annes, Lancashire, England
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 180
Posted:OK, I haven't read the thread that you're refering to Cass, but here's my pennies worth....Respect is due to all things. I definitly believe in karma, if you tell someone to f~@k off, you can't expect helping hand in return. But many people have problems in communicating with others, and missinterpretation can cause a whole barrel of shite..I agree with Charles, but if you've been dissrespected by someone then I see 3 options: return the negativeness, walk away, or respect that person regardless as it's their right to do what they want even if you dissagree with how they deal with things.I've used all of them, but I try make concious efforts to go with the later. If the person caries on with it they will see the knock-on effect as no-one will want to be in their space.Maximum respect
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M:-)~(Still Marlboro as the stopping smoking ting hasn't worked yet **inhales that nicotine deeply**)[This message has been edited by Marlboro (edited 06 February 2002).]


We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Two of my favorite quotes:(Some of you big geeks out there might recognise this one)"It is hard to hear a whisper when hate is shouting in your ear."- LT CMNDR Ryker, Star Trek Next GenHate and disrespect are often blended, confused, when you hear one you are turned off because of the similarities drawn. Any messages worth hearing seem then lost, even the good points.Quote two.."It's hard to hear the good stuff when the bad stuff is easier to believe."Again, the overwhelming nature of negativity.We can put out positive till the cows come home and that reflects positively on us, and sometimes it effects others. As a whole, especially I think in American, our ideals on respect are slipping and it is becomming harder and harder to see what is genuine respect and what is display. There is so much emphasis on politeness that it is being confused with respect. In my sons school the teacher believes yawning is disrespectful. No, it is a human thing, nothing personal. The concepts are getting blurred and out of hand. In the demand for respect, people forget that you can demand politeness and courtesy but that does not equate to respect. I think there is much more to respect...I can like someone and not respect them. I can dislike someone and have utmost respect for them. I can respect the work and thought put into something and not agree with it. I can be polite to some I have no respect for, and if pushed hard enough, I can be rude to someone I respect very much (and that takes alot of pushing). IMHO Respect is more a recognition of differences, of thoughts, of ethics and morals, a form of admiration and acknowledgement for something well done, even if I don't agree. For instance, I hold a great deal of respect for many on this board for how fervently they hold to their convictions. This does not mean I agree with them at all, but I find great strength in those with the power of conviction with well thought and well worded reason supporting them, even if at times they get a little heated about it. That shows me there is passion in that person and I respect passion. Does that mean I want to surround myself with it all the time and that I think each conversation need reach a heated level to prove a point? Not in the least. Polite presentation will definately get you heard. I just acknowledge that strength and admire the conviction.Politeness will earn you some degree of respect but it is more of a social courtesy than any feeling of respect. For many, politeness is off-handed, little effort and so therefore lacks the emotion and forethought that I think respect has. Someone hands me my change at a store, I say thank you and have a nice day before I think about it. Does that mean I don't mean it? If I thought about it I am sure I would, but it is such an ingrained politeness within me that it has no genuine emotion behind it, at least discernable in my voice I am sure. I respect that the person is working hard to make my life easier but whether or not they have a nice day is of no consequence to me, though many times I will say it long before I realise the words trip from my lips.On here we have a very cold form of communication. We rely on smilies and precise wording to present our emotions for us. How many times have I come across as impolite and disrespectful to you? I can honestly say I have ***never*** meant to. Sometimes what the reader interprets and what the writer means are two totally different things (not talking Raversurge here, but more in the generic). Some have made less than funny jokes that a lack of smilies seemed to make appear more harsh than intended. Some have been drawn out because of vocalising opinions but having a bad grasp of language or writing really prevented them from accurately writing how they felt. We have the distinct and sometimes non-helpful ability on here to read into things, out of things, skip to what we want to hear, hear voices reading in our heads with influctions other than what was intended. Not fair, and maybe not respectful to the true intent of the author but it happens alot and because we are each unique and wonderfully creative individuals, it also can not be alleviated completely.I do agree though, there are things that I do respect just because..such as...life. I respect all life. I recognise it for the miracle it is. Does that mean that I won't eat chicken or defend myself or my loved ones to the death? Nope, and in those situations I won't mourn the loss either, but I recognize the cycle of life and my part in it and respect that life is fragile and needs to be lived to be fully appreciated. In this case, my respect is freely given and not earned per se by anything.Maybe I am over thinking...as usual...I don't know. Sorry, again, for babbling. Hope I made sense.[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 06 February 2002).]

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Wow, what a great thread, (not meaning any disrespect to all the other threads
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)."Respect is earned" My take is a litte different to that.I start out respecting everyone but can lose respect for their actiions in certain circumstances, however still respect other parts of them.Like a really nice guy who always tries too hard and never does anything right. I fully respect his attitutde and approach to life, but I would find it hard to respect his "achievements" or to trust he will do something when he says it.As for RaverSurge type people, the only thing we can do is stay polite around them, otherwise the "monkey see monkey do" part of human nature just reinforces that arrogance is the way to act. If we treat him as we want him to treat us, he will be more likely and less provocative after a time, or simply leave...my .02c------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:if you take this idea the other way 'you'll listen to anything if its presented with respect' you'll find yourself listening to alot of crap. as in media images/sound bites, becareful of this manipulation.if you find something offensive and are unable to accept or see the content of the piont being made, your're just not ready for the information point of veiw, its no sweat. we don't all need to be little clones do we.love wisdom and turth or a piont of veiw can be expressed with anger and disrepect. its the content that has the value. do you buy the ugly car with trusty motor and safety features or the one that looks good but doesn't suit you, i guess its all in what your're looking for.as for respect and disrespect, its tough but really you got to take people as they are, you can't expect prople to go changing to suit how you think people should behave, respect is shown in so many different ways as is disrespect, to have a standardised concept of respect and disrespect is disrespectful in itself.

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phunky
old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 877
Posted:Also take into account people act differently on message boards and such than in real life. As much as raver surge and Shinomori are making fools of themselves on this board i'm sure they're quite modest and kind in real life. I'm guilty of this also. You may have noticed my arrogance in the past. I seriously don't mean it, it just comes out sometime. Anyways, it's hard to give respect to someone you don't know. They may be the nicest people outside of this messageboard but everyone has an alter ego. People act differently when they're incognito.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I must say all this is very interesting. so Politeness would be a tool, a mean to live as a community whereas respect is a goal to achieve, something you earn ? again form versus content... both having a meaning and a purpose.One day I chatted with a man who told me that when he was arrested during the war (he was in the resistance in the early 40ies in France) he was in a gestapo office. When the nazi officer entered, he was old and could not walk well, and so this man, the prisoner instinctively stood up as he was taught to do in front of every old person.I, as some of you may know am a gerontophile
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I really have tremendous love and respect for the elderly... But who can guarantee that this man I am holding the door to is not a scumbag who raped and killed 10 children ? I am with Pele and have tremendous respect for life... this is why I am against death penalty... but on the other hand I am happy that I am no judge in court... because my reason says one thing , but my heart says something else sometimes...But I got carried away as always...
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I must say one more thing ... people don't fit in two closed and "waterproof" categories : either the ones you show respect to OR the ones you disrespect. Sometimes you think you're showing respect but the other party does not feel that way. And so who's right in this case ?wondering if I make sense at all cause I am too tired to word my thoughts properly ...Oh ! and Phunky, I totally understand what you mean and I am happy you're more comfortable now on HoP. But as much as it is often true that noone is 100% the same when icognito, I find it interesting to see exactly what side of their personnality shows. Being icognito OR being able to hide behind "orders" of a hierarchy makes people sometimes reveal UGLY sides of their personality. And sometimes for the better because people hand them a mirror and say : "hey, look at you, why are you being such a jerk" ?I try hard not to judge someone on the first impression or I should rather say, I try to always give people the opportunity to make me change my mind... shine onCassandra[This message has been edited by cassandra (edited 06 February 2002).]


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Ok, this may sound a bit selfish but it kind of makes sense to me:I like to show respect to others regardless of the way they respond to me simply because that way I know I have behaved in an acceptable way and I will always come away my usual smiling self, even at the end of a confrontation..............grrrrr! that sounds really smug but I'm finding it a bit difficult to put it into words
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I don't think I'm doing a very good job of this...I like to act in a way I consider respectful and nice, and 99% of the time people will treat you the same back. The ones who don't are not causing you any harm but are instead alienating themselves from you. (is that a bit clearer?)I just like to be happy I guess, and to me respect is important. Like I said, I try to show respect for the earth and it's fellow inhabitants cos I'd like them to be respectful to me. If they're not, it's their loss not mine
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Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Posted:I ignore ppl who are disrespectful.I respect people who are respectful.Once you know what it is (respect) the formula is pretty simple.Josh

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:LOL... it is not the first time ... and definitely not the last that i post and think and twist and squeeze my brain and then Josh comes and wipes it all out in two / three simple words and I am left with a pile of useless words
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Ros, I am absolutely with you and very much understand what you are saying
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shine onCassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:yup. you guys talk too much...its really not that complicated.
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pere


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Twirl'N'Burn
Booojakasha
Location: Brisbane QLD Australia
Member Since: 29th Nov 2001
Total posts: 121
Posted:The way that I figure it is that everyone who comes into your life has a lesson to teach you. Even if it is for only the shortest amount of time, so if you are smart you will take that lesson from each and every person you meet even if that lesson is only how to deal with arrogant people. You will always come off better this way .... continues rambling about his philosophies on life.

Simply an excuse to play with fire.

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audax
audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:I've said it before a while ago that people who are aggressive annoying insensitive ignorant or whatever else that's negative, it's almost always because they have a problem that needs help from someone. It's often a lack of understanding of the basics of being an active, cooperative human in the world, or a lack of any care for anyone or anything, another sign of further problems. Either way they result in confrontations where you have to deal with someone who just seems to get up your nose, but in reality, someone should sit down and talk through their issues with them. I'm not into the idea of therapists at all. it should be friends that do it. But you can't help everyone, it's cynical I know. You can't shoot them all either. You may want to do either in different situations but for me the defining line is the substance factor. If they have chosen to take speed and become a dickhead for the evening, then I have no time for them. If they're a known aggressive drunk and they're drunk again, it's time to get out the way. If they are simply ticked off over something and are taking out aggression on other people then you can help. You never know when someone has had a parent die or anything devastating happen. They're not normal if they act normal at this time. Some people have the ability to bury issues under their own consciousness. That can be very hard to deal with for everyone as noone knows what is affecting their behaviour.In conclusion
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I believe nearly all negativity is rooted in issues that have nothing to do with the present conflict. (remember when I posted that last time Cassandra?) Something else is going on which has nothing to do with what's going on then and there. The key to dealing with it is to remeber this at the right time. But for me, taking behaviour affecting drugs (alcohol inc.) is a CHOICE people make. If someone drinks too much Bundaberg rum, they deserve no sympathy for getting hurt in fights! That may sound very ruthless, but I also try as hard as I can to help if I think I can.Thank you all for reading.Let's all go make fire move in circles


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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audax
audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Wow I just read the RaVeRxSuRgeDuDeNyC thread (or whatever it's called) and now I understand how annoyed everyone is. My first impression was there was an excessive use of amphetamines going on in NYC. But then I guess most people take their substances socially, not to post on the internet. So I guess he's got inadequecy issues he deals with by trying to be the centre of attention and making a point of trying to be the best or more importantly better than everyone else. But writing off everyone elses efforts and putting down the reasons why others twirl is just bonehead behaviour that is one or two steps short of being IMHO rightfully barred from the forum. We can't help someone that won't be told, and there's really nothing being offered to the readers.Another theory (my dad's) is that Raverxsurge is a bored 60 year old real estate agent receptionist suffering from cabin fever and excessive chocolate.

UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:ROFL !

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Audax:"Another theory (my dad's) is that Raverxsurge is a bored 60 year old real estate agent receptionist suffering from cabin fever and excessive chocolate."I think I am going to pee my pants laughing! ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:*consider my pants peed*!!!!!You tell your dad he is the funniest guy on the whole darn net (and we all respect that)
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------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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audax
audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:My dad is pleased to hear this. He normally posts on boards were people don't get his sense of humour. We aussies just can't take anything seriously, it's fun!Everyone's happy again. YAY!
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------------------Your parents were wrongFire is good Play with fire[This message has been edited by audax (edited 09 February 2002).]


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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