• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Event organisers lying about their budgets... (

Login/Join to Participate

Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:In another Thread, Sorcha the Flaming wrote:Ive done some freebie shows in the past and im so sad to say i wont do them again (unless special circumstances ) i had a gig to spin at a fetish show here and tehy were totally hyped to have me. my charge ive been told by other spinneds is super low i only charge 50%/hr . four dayd before the show they informed me that they were not going to pay me as the function had turned into ""a charity of sorts" yet the stilt walking whip man got payed 200$ just to show up.. i told them not a chance. i find people take you forgranted if they know you'll let them. i do peace rally's etc for free though just cause i like to spin.its a fine line between the two but if all the proceeds were going to the charity no problem.. but they were keeping 3/4 of the money for themselves so they couldnt tell me they were not going to make a bit of dough out of my being there.. Sorcha, that isn't necessarily because of your lower charge.I think that Charity Event line was just a version of a nasty trick that Event Managers sometimes pull on most circus-arts type performers without agents.They say something along the lines of:"We've over run our budget, and can't pay you anymore, would you still like to do it for free..."and quite often, its a complete and total lie, they have got the money and just dont want to spend it.What is unfortunate is that there are lots of performers who believe them, and say Ok , Ill do it for free!This has been going on in NZ for decades and seems to be a worldwide occurrence.The only way to stop it, is for performers to stop accepting this and not performing if they arent getting paid.As a successful businessman well before I started performing professionally, this type of charade angers me and I am still having trouble accepting that it takes place regularly.I cant imagine any other contract or business transaction taking place where one party is suddenly asked to provide it for free, and actually accepts the offerWhat really angers me is that when they pull this, which is usually a day or two before the event, so that day was already set aside in my calender and in many cases I've turned down other gigs to take the first one.Anyway, this is a gripe about the situation itself, a few words of support for Sorcha, and hopefully a call to others who have had similar tricks played on them.------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 30 January 2002).]

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Delete Topic

Surloch
SILVER Member since Dec 2001

member
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 64
Posted:I think often they also forget that a lot of performers lead double lives. They see a guy/girl with a staff or some poi and think "Hah, here is an uneducated, poor person I can easily rip off because they are so desperate for money/references". When really, the person they are hiring could be a doctor for all they know earning more money in a week they will see in a year.I know in the web industry it is almost the same. There are tons of web developers out there, some of them with IT backgrounds who are just desperate for work and 'sinking' to web development. They are willing to work on dirt cheap rates, or even for free just for the promise of future payment. It makes it hard for the profeshionals with a huge portfolio who ask thousands of dollars for a very good job, when the company says "Oh, but I can pick up a student who says they will do it for $50". They don't understand the difference in quality they will get from someone established in the industry. Argh, I could go on forever about this...just to finish, did you ever hear that Australia works the 2nd longest out of any country in the world, with a national unpaid overtime of a little over 2 billion hours a year? So many people are insecure in their employment status, and will do anything to keep their job these days. gone are the days where someone would change careers and jobs only twice in their life. Now, you have to be a jack of all trades just to hold down a temp position for more than a few months
Non-Https Image Link


N mar a sltear a btear

“Things may not be as they seem to be”

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Here here Charles!This is also another reason why a well thought out, well written contract is a necessity! Unfortunately, art or no, it comes down to being somewhat of a game. The goal is to make/keep money, and some people cheat to do it. There are others, of which I like to concider myself, who know the game well enough to not get played.And I agree Surloch, that as long as there are those out there willing to underbid, or who are naive enough to fall for it, others pay the price.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:More wise words from the mods.AmenTEMPEST

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I walked away and I thought about this, and really it comes down to integrity and having enough faith in your art to believe it is worth what you are asking, if not more. Sticking to your guns can pay off, and in the end it will gain you more respectable jobs as well, which only grow from there.It is sooooo important to remember that it is a gamble, both for you and them. They gamble on the hopes that the crowd will like you and that you won't burn down the venue.You are gambling on the hope that this will pay you what you are worth and be a stepping stone to a larger event.Again, I can not support the usage of proper contracts enough.So, what do you ask yourself when being hired for something?Is it worth it? What they are paying and does the show integrity uphold my intergrity?Is it worth the risks I take everytime I light up? Is it worth my time and effort in the end? If you can answer yes, then do it. If they suddenly change the rules mid-game, ask why...a million times, "Well sir, if you hired me three weeks ago and had it in the budget then, could you please explain to me why you spent my portion of the payment instead of reserving it? Where did the money you had then go? If you would like to negotiate then I would appreciate your saying that instead. If you can not afford me then you should not have hired me, I am sorry but it is in the contract that if you cancel you still will pay me XX amount." Is it pushy? Damn straight. Does it get results? Yup. If you remain professional and get that contract settled, it is harder to get played. They will still try, just stand your ground. It sucks when this happens but be ready for it and it won't throw you so quickly AND, this is one of the best pieces of advice I have ever gotten, the greatest power you have is to say no. At first it may seem like it is actually hurting you more than them, but with enough of us establishing the rules, it will be harder for jerks such as this to push us around.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Pele is dead on. If you're planning on performing for money you have to have all agreements in writing. Verbal agreements are worth precicely jack shit. Most club owners are scum (though there are a few nice ones out there, don't hold your breath trying to find them) they know that you're not going to take them to court over what little they were going to pay you, and definatly not if it's just your word against the club owner's.Contracts are beautiful things. All the terms and agreements are right there in black and white so if the venue trys to pull anything you can just say "Fu*k you, clown!".I would assume that many of the larger clubs have a standard contract for acts and performers, so be shure to read all the fine print. If they're trying to rush you to sign it with out reading you should probobly take that as a sign that they're trying to screw you. If you're in a situation where the venue is writing a contract spicificly for you make shure that all the language is simple, clear and to the point, i.e. you will be paid X amount for X service on X date, and then the terms if either party can not fulfill there end of the agreement. I think the simpler the better. And don't let yourself get bullied into something that you don't feel comfortable with. The more you get used to telling people to fu*k off, the easier it is to get through life (at least in my experiance, anyway).------------------If you love something, set it on fire.

Jesus helps me trick people.

Delete

Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Hey Sick Puppy, do you mind not calling people clowns as derogatory terms...
Non-Https Image Link
Some of us don't just do fire for moneyOOGA! OOGA!Sparkles the Clown


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Delete

yashiro


member


Total posts: 77
Posted:great topic... I'll add your experiences to my knowledge to use it.but you know.... sometimes you must sell yourself to archieve greater things

Delete

bec
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

bec

member
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...

Total posts: 521
Posted:hmmmmmmm... I just to add another perspective on this one...(it is a little different, but related to this...)I definitely agree that you must be assertive to maintain respect as a professional... and a written agreement is essential (and I would extend that to include a booking deposit if you are acting on your own behalf).but... there is also the place where you do want to stay flexible. This shouldn't be on the fee (and I'd like to add that we've fortunately never been in the position that Charles quoted, so perhaps I would feel stronger if I had)... but sometimes situations do change and you have to assess whether it is worth kicking up a fuss if it isn't really going to stretch you to change. (again I stress I'm not talking $$$)What am I going on about? well and example is... a tour we did last year that was organised by another one of the performers. There were really good contracts, excellent pay, 50% paid up front etc etc...but somewhere into the first of the three weeks we realised it had turned from a workshop-based tour with a few cameo performances into something that involved a very different balance of workshops to shows.This happened to suit me wonderfully, as although I do love teaching I find it more draining than my first love of performing...However, one of the other performers found it really difficult to let go of the fact that the agreement *had* changed. Without going into all the details, the experience just made me realise that part of being a professional artist is being able to adapt to a situation even if it isn't what you originally expected... *as long as* it doesn't compromise you or your standards... (or, I guess, those of other fire performers) We've had it happen a few times where we have been, say, booked for 2 x 10min shows in a 3 hour call and then arrived to find they have wanted us to do 3... If for some reason we *really* didn't want to do the third, we wouldn't be required to, since the contract has only specified 2... but weighing it up, we usually will happily do the extra (although making it clear to them that we are giving them more than was originally agreed)... but equally so, sometimes a program will run behind time and we'll only have to do one rather than 2... there *are* good event organisers out there too
Non-Https Image Link
oh, and another thing that we've learnt... (and this does relate to the money bit) mostly (and there are a few exceptions) if you do a free gig to get exposure you will get more gigs - but they'll be free ones too! If you do discounted gigs to just get some work and a foot in the door.. yes you'll get more of them - but word will get round and you'll only get half of what you can get... ...act like a professional, charge like a professional and what happens? well, we've found it works...


Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I agree completely Bec, about the flexibility in *other* areas of performing. I have had change of show numbers, of staging area, tools to use, etc....and I bent around all those things withuot an issue. Some of these the event organiser had no say over (such as the acts before me putting haybales for the audience to sit on in front of the stage!:eek
Non-Https Image Link
. I have also had things happen to me where I missed a performance at a faire, not the whole day but one show (I was bit by a poisonous spider and there wasn't anti-venom on site, so I did what I could, stifled the sickness and did a combined show later) and the producer gave me all of my money and alot of understanding.Not everyone is bad. But sometimes, it is hard to figure out who is and who isn't. Maintaining a professional attitude let's them know you aren't going to be played around. There is such a difference between bending around things like that and changing the game at last minute. I also agree with being vocal about how you feel about the situation, politely. Such as making sure they understand they are getting an extra show, or that if they cancel one show you still get your money's worth, or if they bend for you that you are grateful. Firmness and professionalism does not mean don't smile and be polite, just to hold to your convictions. And there is nothing wrong with that since it is your career on the line! I agree Bec!And wonderfully said about the free shows and discount shows!------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Our general rule for performing is - if the event organizers are making money, then so are we. I they don't meet our fees (which are completely reasonable), then they need to talk to someone else, because we aren't going to be there. On the other hand, we will gladly do charity events or fundraisers for a good cause for free, as long as no one is making a profit off of our work. In the States, someone can get into big trouble by claiming something is for charity if it really isn't, so if they bill it that way, we'll do it that way if it looks legitimate. And I don't really care if someone gets paid to show up to a charity event and I don't - it doesn't seem very charitable to me to charge a good cause.For paid events, unless you know and trust who you are hired by (which does occasionally happen), then get the money before you perform (or at least 50%) - you don't want the person responsible for paying you to say they "forgot" their checkbook after you wrap up your show.In the end, you should just make some rules for yourself and then stick to them. It is a lot easier to negotiate if the other party doesn't think they can change your mind. You have a valueable entertainment service to render, don't sell it short.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

Orin


member
Location: NYC

Total posts: 36
Posted:Charles - I think Sickpuppy was referring to a joke in this thread..http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002144.htmlAlso, as to stay on topic..How do you (generalized you) decide how much your asking price is?I mean.. I've gotten paid for doing other things at clubs, but never for spinning, etc..I think the best way to keep from getting ripped is having a good business relationship with the club owner. I realize that sometimes this isn't possible.. but people are less likely to screw over a person as they are a 'hired act'

Once I cut my hand, but the wound was not part of me.
Now I'm a man, there's a wound at the heart of me.

Delete

Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Orin, charging is a very common topic, this thread http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000508.htmlhas
a good selection of methods to choose from and covers almost all bases. Well worth a look.And I'm sorry, I'm not going to wade through that huge thread to try and find out what was being hinted at, (beside the
Non-Https Image Link
was supposed to mean I was joking too!)
Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link
------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO, Sparkles, The Balloon Dude, Krazy Karl, Johnny the Juggler & Cream Pie)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 12 February 2002).]


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Delete

SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:I agree Bec has a great point. Flexability does play a huge role in becoming successful when it comes to performing. Developing a reputation as a pain in the ass will not help you to book more performances down the road, so dealing gracefully with the unexpected is definatly a vertue in the buisness of club performing. But you should still have a clear and concise contract so that there is no confusion. It is one thing to do a performance for free and for chairity, it's a whole diffirent bag of tomatoes when someone says they will pay you and then they do not. That always really sucks.I have only done one professional fire performance, so I am speaking from my expieriance of booking shows with the diffirent bands I've been in over the years. I don't think there is too much diffirence besides the insurance issue. But I've seen a lot of bands, including my own, screwed out of money that was promised to them because they were too trusting, and I'd much rather not see it again if I can do anything to help it.Charles,sorry about the clown crack, but I really hate clowns. I had a seriously tramatic experiance involving clowns as a child, and I've hated them ever since.Orin,I was not, in fact, referring to that joke thread. The phrase "F*ck you, clown!" has been in regular use in my vocabulary for a good many years. But thank you all the same for your insight
Non-Https Image Link
------------------If you love something, set it on fire.


Jesus helps me trick people.

Delete

Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:SP - That's cool, i was half joking...
Non-Https Image Link
Though I have to admit I've had some pretty horrible experinces with members of the opposite sex, that doesn't mean I hate every woman I see. Just means I don't like those particular women any more (not that any of them hold a candle to my lovely angel).------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Delete

audax
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs

Total posts: 286
Posted:I am part of a newly established fire troupe called Third degree and am lucky enough to have a member of the group who has performed professionaly in many countries before. His experiences have helped enormously (and his knowledge concurs with most of this thread) even though he does always want a dressing room
Non-Https Image Link
We've had a small number of gigs for cash and are now ready to promote and propose venues for work. We have had various offers from people keen to agent for us. The tendency is to DIY because that's what we have done so far. Any guidance on this would be appreciated.


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

Delete

Orin


member
Location: NYC

Total posts: 36
Posted:Op.. sorry
Non-Https Image Link
*shall keep quiet till he's checked up more into things*


Once I cut my hand, but the wound was not part of me.
Now I'm a man, there's a wound at the heart of me.

Delete

jentheroo


member
Location: brighton

Total posts: 7
Posted:At the end of the day club promoters etc know they can get poi swingers for free there are so many kids out there just waiting to be let on stage paid or not!!you have to offer something the next doesnt have

Delete

firecat


member
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Total posts: 7
Posted:we agreed to do a charity event for free - they told us it wouldn't be paid because all proceeds were going to the charity - even had a reputable charity's name listed on the advertisements... so we thought it would be fun & lots of good publicity for us... with only a couple days before the event - THE CHARITY STOPPED THE SHOW because the event organizers were using thier name to solicit donations without permission - the charity was never told the event was going on! I would assume that the event organizers were planning on taking $50 a ticket & not giving much if anything to the cause!!just a word of warning... even if it sounds like a good casue, be sure to check that the group organizing or hosting the event is part of the charity!!! I would have felt pretty stupid if we'd gone on with the show & then found out later that someone had just pulled off a huge scam & used us as part of it!!! catScorched Earth

Delete

Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Jentheroo.Event Managers are usually wary of any performers (not including musicians) that they don't know have high safety standards and can pull off a good act. This is doubly so for fire.Just because there are people out there willing to do it for free (who should be asking to get paid anyweay in my opinion) doesn't mean that they will have agood stage presence, or that they are reliable or that their safety practices are up to scratch.This isn't saying they aren't, it's just saying that the EM has no way of knowing this unless they have been referred.The other one is despite what most firies believe, it is quite hard to get in touch with most firies if you don't even know where to start looking.One of my agents in NZ is always asking me to find other fire performers and they have been operating for decades.------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Because there is alot of talk of professionalism lately...*bump*

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Katch
GOLD Member since Jun 2004

Katch

Beach bum


Total posts: 162
Posted:I still haven't been paid for a gig we did last year... *sigh* They didn't call us until the cheque was about to go stale and I couldn't pick it up because we were busy with work. (Can the reissue the cheque?)

But yeah... now we do 50% downpayment and 50% after the gig. We also make it clear that our safeties are part of the group and should be paid. biggrin


Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-Franklin P. Jones

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:They should absolutely reissue the cheque! You did the job, but you also need to be dilligent in getting paid, or they will let it go, after all...if you don't seem to want the money...why should they want to part with it..you know?

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by:
and quite often, its a complete and total lie, they have got the money and just dont want to spend it.



I didn't get paid once when I worked in a club in London (the Drome) because the night was a flop. Unfortunatly that meant I couldn't even afford my train fare home, i was relying on being paid. Of course it was a complete and total lie, the organiser at the time was a complete junkie and they just hadn't made as much money as they'd wanted. Thankfully the guy incharge of my section took pity and gave me my train fare money from the till whilst cashing up.


Delete

Sakura_Moon


Sakura_Moon

Hop's Kitten Jester.
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Austral...

Total posts: 1803
Posted:I have only ever had one paid gig and i got $%0 for half an hour...which i think was decent..seeing as i didnt have alot of equipment.
Anyhow, ive had a few parties where ive done it for my friends for free...i dont think id have the heart to ask them to cough up...


.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.


Delete

Shu
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Shu

Retro Fyre Wizzard
Location: Pietermaritzburg (KZN)

Total posts: 538
Posted:When i was starting out, i did alot of free gigs, just to get my name out there! Then it started getting outta hand and i had to put my foot down.

There are some gigs i do for free, but there are arragements with the organisers/hosts! Like @ Talking Drums, Ice-E FyreStorm performs for fun, they don't expect anything from us and we just get on and do our own thing, whenever we like however we like! Sometimes i even trade for a gig... there's something u got that i want...

I (personally) do VALID charity events for free, but it depends on the charity and the expectations! I've performed @ the Starfish Concert for AIDS orphans, the SPCA fashion show, Festival of Lights and a couple of others. What i found dissapointing, is that there were other people around who would not perform without pay, and it's for charity, 5l of paraffin is not going to make you broke! And you get into the functions for free neway! Go and have a blast!

As for people telling me that i could not be paid. I ditch the gig. Once the organisers called me back and told me that they actually would be able to make a plan and pay, I had already organised something else for the evening, sorri for you!

Business is business and as performers, people don't see us that way! There are alot of people who believe they can take advantage of us! Unfortunately there are many of us who take the crap that people give out!

"I love dancing, but if you're going to get my 'nickers in a knot' with trying to get things set up so i can perform for your guests... you're gonna pay for my time!"


Regards hug

Shu
(Ice-E FyreStorm - Group Manager & Performer)

You know those people your parentals warned you about?... I'M ONE OF THEM! ubbloco
Yes, i do bite!!

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [event organiser* lying budget*] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > Event organisers lying about their budgets... (
2. Forums > Event organisers lying about their budgets... ( [25 replies]
3. Learn > Hoop > Hula Hoop > Anti-spin Flowers *help/resource leader  hoop dance teacher  event organiser  stilt walker and arts...
4. Learn > Hoop > Hula Hoop > Back Bounce *help/resource leader  hoop dance teacher  event organiser  stilt walker and arts...
5. Learn > Hoop > Hula Hoop > Back Bounce with Barrel Roll and Isolation (advanced) *help/resource leader  hoop dance teacher  event organiser  stilt walker and arts...

     Show more..