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Forums > Social Chat > international fire preformance troupe

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phuzzz


member
Location: saltspring island, bc , kanada

Total posts: 160
Posted:I have had some troubles with clubowners/partyorganizers due to safety concerns. it turns out last time(s) they had fire at their party fuel got sprayedall over the crowd or the abulance was required. thus i had an idea. what if a group of individuals (10-10000) scattered across te globe set up a troupe and one of the troupes main concerns was safety. the troup could hold seminars/workshops/full on shows. the troup would gain recognition as a reliable and professional group and beingpart of this group would be an asset in getting hired/ripped off. also a way of getting in touch with pros for promoters and such.just thought it was a good idea.

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Pele'sWhippingBoy


member
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

Total posts: 442
Posted:That is a good idea. For finding local fire professionals you may want to check out this website:http://fireperformers.com/Is is made from the creator of Home of Poi.As for seminar/workshop check out the Events, Performances & GatheringsThere is a large gathering going on in 2003.International Gatheirng 2003As for the gain of recognition, that is a possibility from being with the Fire Performers website.I'm usually one for using what's available. And it just so happens, this is.------------------FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB."Those who can, do. Those who can't, critique"Pyromorph.com - Let the fire change you

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Are you speaking more like a union type thing, which we have discussed before, with membership cards and all, but the idea was shot down feeling it would be too limited.I wouldn't want to be part of a "troupe" per se because something of that size would become too political and very difficult to manage, regulate, etc.And that is an issue we discussed when talking union, where is the line crossed between suggestion, political regulation and stifling creativity. So, say a safety measure is never using one form of fuel, but to pull something off the person needs to use it, especially since fuels change from locale to locale. Technically, a bucket of water is the worst thing you can put on a fuel fire, but some fire marshall's require it at a performance. Who are we to say your tools are unsafe? Or practices? There are too many variables. In truth it all goes back to elementary education, be smart with it, read up on it, stop, drop and roll and use the instructions on your fire safety equipment, and never be without them.For many areas it would be hard to pull off safety lectures with any form of turn out, because we are so scattered. That is why it is the performers responsibility to research and really know these things, and then to present them in a convincing way. For example, I recently spoke to a Fire Marshall who fined a bar quite heftily for allowing the bartender to fire breathe, so of course he had issues when I went to him with a performance I had in the area. After talking with him, he was ready to issue me a permit.You just have to do all this well ahead of time.I personally wouldn't mind giving safety seminars. However such time costs and, here's the big but, I would make everyone sign a waiver that if an accident does happen, they won't come back and sue me, since accidents *will* happen to even the most safety conscious.It sucks that you are feeling the kickback of irresponsible performers, but in reality, it happens to us all and is something we put our best professional faces on about and work around it. This also supports al of mine and Charles' preaching about safety and respect for others because it really does reflect on other performers what you do.Good luck to you.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Not one to jump on the bandwagon but I am another person that agrees with Pele's points. Phuzz, it is a nice idea but the main problem would be the regulation of such an organistion that large/spreadout - especially with the huge influx of fireys wanting to get into the performance spectrum. TEMPEST

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I agree with the idea, and the reasons why it may be near impossible to set up.Another common issue would be ensuring members actually do follow the safety regulations 100% of the time.All it takes is for one member to have a publicised accident (and they are always publicised, usually by the local newspaper if not the national news!) and then the reputation of the whole organisation will be in doubt.Pele's suggestion about educating the employer about your own safety rules is much more effective and achievable but still annoying that it needs to be done at all.Also letting every firey you meet, whether professional or amatuer,know that whenever something they do goes wrong, it reflects on every fire performer and tends to cost others work and bookings. This hopefully makes them more conscious of what they are doing when in the public.As an example...There's a firestaffer who came from the states a while ago and lit his face on fire while breathing here in Auckland.He was well over 6ft, blond, long haired with a pony tail, skinny, and used to perform topless, use pretty foul language AND only with poi and fire breathing.I'm short, dark-haired, not skinny and always perform in a waistcoat at the least and a shirt and waistcoat usually. I only perform with firestaffs, no longer do firebreathing and keep my language at PG levels all the time.Despite him hurting himself 6 months ago, AND all the physical AND the performance AND the style differences, people still keep asking me if I was the guy who lit his face on fire. Some emplyers are still citing it as a reason they don't want a fire performer at their event.I think this type of generalised thinking will still apply even with an international association of "safe" practitioners.It is still a great idea, I'm hoping someone else can shoot down all these objections in flames (he he he) and that we can get it up and running.Peace love and mungbeans------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 25 January 2002).]

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Ignis Devoco


member
Location: Prato, Italy

Total posts: 67
Posted:Wow,This is a great topic....This has been discussed quite a bit between some of us in the community...Here is some of the thoughts...Have any of you heard of the APP? The Association of Professional PIercers?? Not to long ago they had the same issues only when it came to piercing. They formed a self governing organization that set standards for piecrcers. If you met these standards then you were accredited by this association. This help piercers to get clientele who were concerend about the health standards in the piercing industry. There are so many benefits to this. They work closely with government organizations such as OSHA to set minimum standards that would meet and exceed standards already set by the government..."The group believes that it is the obligation of all professionals in the field to assume responsibility for their continued education. The organization dedicates itself to enabling this responsibility to be met."This is a very important quote from their site...it says that the individual is responsible for their own education and that this organization is in place to help that individual with the resources for that education.....Putting it this way the fire community could easily work with government organizations ( of course I am starting with the us government..but you have to start somewhere)...such as OSHA and the FAA (for traveling with tools) and with other national organzations such as the National Fire Protection Assosiation which already sets the standards for fire safety codes and what not.Charles..I have to disagree with you.. I believe that if we had a professional fire arts association that more than likely that person you spoke of would not have been accredited and that when things like that happen it would not look make the association look bad it would only go to show how much it is needed.........The benefits for this kind of organization are many...Insurance companies could design specific policies related to Fire performance instead of us being grouped under clown insurance...which ultimately be cheaper for troupes. For event clients they would have the assurance that whomever they are hiring that is accredited would already abide by a set of safety standards. Performers would have the ability to be accredited and have an easier time traveling when they perform if it is a national organization.... States would still have their say of course but instead of starting anew every time they would already have a set of guidlines to go from....I also believe that as a professional or not we all have basic ideas of what fire safety is and would be able to set those standards...MOst of all this org. would be a resource for those who are just starting... It would offer things like workshops given by those who are members....A part of being a member could be that you were required to teach one work shop a month or something....It would be a democratic org with it's officers and standards voted for by the members....I could go on and on about the benefits of an organization such as this..but I really want to see what other people have to say...Donia LoveIgnis Devoco Industrial Fire Circuswww.ignisdevoco.com"Where there is sorrow, I seek the flame."

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:oops, Donia, perhaps I didn't explain myself correctly.What I was intending to say was that people even our employers, have a habit of lumping all firedancers together, and not seeing them as having different safety standards and different skill levels and so on.I feel local business like a piercing parlour can get a reputation for cleanliness and excellent work or one of being shoddy and unsanitary very easily.Most people who see a fire accident will remember that one event more than every other dire display they have seen and, perhaps only in NZ, they have a habit of thinking that is the norm.Obviously the odd Event Manager who deals with us frequently and/or knows some professionals on a personal level will have a more realistic view, but even then, many EM's have cited that incident as a reason for not hiring me.I think the fact that the numbers of fire-performers in the world is so small (despite what we think) compared to all other entertainment arts lumped together (music, pure dance, bands, mime, circus arts, celebrities, sponsors, sportspeople etc etc etc) that we have very little choice in not being genralised about.Hopefully this is just a New Zealand thing, and if so, then lets try and get this things set up overseas and change the world.All your other points i agree with entirely and especially your disagrement if I'm right in the way i didn';t explain things properly...
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------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


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* Is it the Truth?
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Ignis Devoco


member
Location: Prato, Italy

Total posts: 67
Posted:IT is already happening...Check out...http://www.freewebz.com/sfaa/ And the North West Version will be popping up shortly....Still looking for volunteers from other regions...MIssion Statement...(Insert Region Here) Fire Arts Association, in collaboration with the Northwest Fire Arts Association, presents this mission statement and guidelinesThe (Insert Region Here) Fire Arts Association was established in 2002 to provide resources to fire artists of the (Insert Region Here) , to aggressively create and maintain a set of nationally recognized self governed safety standards regarding fire art and to establish fire art as a recognized and fundable genre of the art world through education and communication. The (Insert Region Here) Fire Arts Association is a non-profit corporation with offices located in (Insert City and State Here)and local chapters throughout the (Insert Region Here) .Our Mission Is to:To provide education, training and support services to fire artists of the (Insert Region Here). To educate the general public about the viability and safety of fire art through various workshops and presentations. To build relationships and produce interdisciplinary works with other emerging artists in a variety of disciplines including but not limited to, Dance, Multimedia Installation, Multimodal Interaction/Recognition, Theatre, DJ, VJ, and Live music. To work with fire artists from around the country to set self governed national safety standards that will meet and exceed federally regulated standards based in part on scientific research and study. To work with already established fire associations such as the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) and federal agencies such as the FAA to establish self governed national safety guidelines and standards for such things as performance and travel. To accredit persons involved in the fire arts who maintain national safety guidelines, including but not limited to, performers, tool builders, safety technicians, costume and set designers.DoniaIgnis Devoco Industrial Fire Circuswww.ignisdevoco.com"Where ther is sorrow, I seek the flame"Rumi

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Sit back, it's a long one.
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Unions and such organizations, permits, licenses and such "membership cards" are watched over by federal laws. And if this organization is going to govern over smaller subsepts, who is going to govern over them?This happened in the pagan community a few years ago, and lead to witch wars because groups went unchecked. There was a boom in civil liberties, liable and slander suits nationwide, as well as reports filed with the ACLU.What is going to be done to keep this from happening again, world wide? And who did the scientific research? Who is going to fund this organization? Something such as this will require newsletters and constant updates, legal representation to prove it is legitimate...all of which is costly and it can't all be handled on the web. Who is going to pay and file the not-for-profit organization fees, because personally I wouldn't belong to anything such as this unless it was recognised and represented, and I would encourage others to do the same. That way I **know** beyond a doubt that what they are providing will cover my butt.I can run out and start up a site saying that I am starting something like this. Anyone can. I know. I started a not-for-profit group five years ago and so I know what is involved to get it recognised and up and running. It involves alot of legal work, paper work, time, money and effort not to mention blood, sweat and tears.And since this group intends to dictate what I can/can't, should/shouldn't be doing, which can have a profound effect on my career, then what will they do for me? All I see are services that will benefit venues or beginners. I could teach workshoppes on safety. So, where will they be protecting me, because when one firey who isn't registered blows something up, a little membership card is not going to change a fire marshall or an event producer's mind? Like Charles said, we are all lumped together, like it or not. Who is going to certify and train those who are the "teachers"? Where will this certification come from to present? What exactly will the certification be in? I have a teaching degree and my first aide certification. I can rattle off facts and figures about safety enough to boggle your minds, that doesn't mean I am qualified. In order for this organization to be credible to fire authorities and such outside of the area where it started, it is going to need much more official, formal representation than it currently has, as well as cooperation from law on the federal, state and local levels. To say it is working with FAA means nothing. I want names to throw around that mean something at my airport. And working with the FAA will not be enough, since every airline has the right to mandate even stricter rules than the FAA, and they do. This means the airlines will have to be worked with individually as well, but without serious legal representation, strong backing from the fire authorities and such, they will get laughed out of the room. And if one person gets through and something goes wrong? There goes the benefits of membership...so therefore, who is the judge of who is acceptible and who is not? What form of application process is going to be given out and what is the basis for decisions? Who is going to pay to run the personal history check that says a person does not have prior offences in arson to assure a venue that the place will not burn down (Sorry, personal morals don't cut it for me today). I was told our fire marshalls here do this everytime I call them. The questions on legalities go on and on. (Did I ever mention I was a pre-law student for awhile. I was in college/university a looooooong time studying lots of things!
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)At this point, a Fire Liberties Union, A Fire Performing Union, whatever, while good in thought (and there are plenty of ideas for it if you check the other thread), I think will take more time and work than has been put into it before it should be even presented to the public in the crude format stages. This is a new art form, relatively speaking, and so should not be rushed into such things. If we each educate ourselves and do our best in all aspects of our own performance..from safety and transport to presentation. We work hard to do the best we can negotiating these things for ourselves, because to me that determines who really has the passion to do this as a career and who is an empassioned hobbyist. We take what we have learned and teach it to others, helping them to pave their own way without making it too easy to just step into something established. Check out unions for other forms of art, they are not so easy nor accepting. The fees, the paperwork and the guidelines are tremendous for all involved but have held up over the years, and they took years to establish. That is what should be aimed for in my eyes.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Ignis Devoco


member
Location: Prato, Italy

Total posts: 67
Posted:From Discussion I have had with other fire artists..It will be a self goverened democratic organization and a ....The organization..will work closely with federally recognized associations and such and will elect it members...The APP (Association of Professional Piercers)is an excellent example of this kind of thing working.The people who are currently working on this will be the ones to fund this and then I assume that there will be membership fees, and that will cover other costs...Scietific reasearch will be conducted by fire professionals as well as relying on the information that is already available.As for the rest of your issues, I can assure that those of us interested in this will be addressing each and everyone...But I do diagree with you on one thing in particular...I don't think people should wait untill this is all Ironed out to begin posting the website or information or whatnot...I think the main idea it to get other fire artists involved right away to answer the questions you have brought up....to do so you I think it needs to be posted right away....I am all for this happening. I trust the peole involved are professionals and that there ultimate goal is to unite the fire community and set up a basic set of fire safety standards and I see a lot of benefit as a professional performer in this.I think I will attempt to answer some of your questions..."And if this organization is going to govern over smaller subsepts, who is going to govern over them?"It will be a self governing organization and so the membership will govern itself."This happened in the pagan community a few years ago, and lead to witch wars because groups went unchecked. There was a boom in civil liberties, liable and slander suits nationwide, as well as reports filed with the ACLU.What is going to be done to keep this from happening again, world wide?"Again I say it will be a self governed orgaization govern by the members "And who did the scientific research? Who is going to fund this organization?"Fire Professional will do the research as well as scientific information that is already available..." Something such as this will require newsletters and constant updates, legal representation to prove it is legitimate...all of which is costly and it can't all be handled on the web. Who is going to pay and file the not-for-profit organization fees" THese fees will be covered by the initial founders and then covered by membership dues..."I can run out and start up a site saying that I am starting something like this. Anyone can. I know. I started a not-for-profit group five years ago and so I know what is involved to get it recognised and up and running. It involves alot of legal work, paper work, time, money and effort not to mention blood, sweat and tears"The people inolved in starting this have also had experience with other non-profit work. The people interested in doing this are also fire professionals...YEs anyone can start this..BUt do they have the experience and the support of various fire authorities??And since this group intends to dictate what I can/can't, should/shouldn't be doing, which can have a profound effect on my career, then what will they do for me? The organization will set a level of standards ONLY for their members. Accredidation can be a huge benefit when going to perform. You as a performer will have a better chance at getting a show then someone who is not accredited."All I see are services that will benefit venues or beginners. I could teach workshoppes on safety. So, where will they be protecting me, because when one firey who isn't registered blows something up, a little membership card is not going to change a fire marshall or an event producer's mind?"I think you are wrong....I think fire marshals and producers want assurances of safety and I believe this organization could provide this."Like Charles said, we are all lumped together, like it or not. I think you are wrong here toO. As a professional I am not Lumped in with newbies..." I have experience not only in fire but performance and it shows when I deal with clients."Who is going to certify and train those who are the "teachers"? Where will this certification come from to present? What exactly will the certification be in? I have a teaching degree and my first aide certification. I can rattle off facts and figures about safety enough to boggle your minds, that doesn't mean I am qualified. In order for this organization to be credible to fire authorities and such outside of the area where it started, it is going to need much more official, formal representation than it currently has, as well as cooperation from law on the federal, state and local levels. To say it is working with FAA means nothing. I want names to throw around that mean something at my airport. And working with the FAA will not be enough, since every airline has the right to mandate even stricter rules than the FAA, and they do. This means the airlines will have to be worked with individually as well, but without serious legal representation, strong backing from the fire authorities and such, they will get laughed out of the room. And if one person gets through and something goes wrong? There goes the benefits of membership...so therefore, who is the judge of who is acceptible and who is not? What form of application process is going to be given out and what is the basis for decisions? Who is going to pay to run the personal history check that says a person does not have prior offences in arson to assure a venue that the place will not burn down (Sorry, personal morals don't cut it for me today). I was told our fire marshalls here do this everytime I call them. The questions on legalities go on and on. (Did I ever mention I was a pre-law student for awhile. I was in college/university a looooooong time studying lots of things! )"Membership, Membership, Membership....You assume that becasue someone on this board is working on this project that they do not have the backing of higher ups...WE are currently working with high officals in different local, state and federal agencies. We also have the support of various local, state, and federal authorities...The FAA and The NFPA are EXAMPLES of the varioud angencies we will be working with...Again I will use the APP as an example.. I urge you to cheack them out at www.safepiercing.org... They where exactly where we are now.. Not regulated except on a local level...They created this as a SELF governed body to STANDARDISE practices... THeier MEBERSHIP along with OSHA reps set the standards including who could teach."At this point, a Fire Liberties Union, A Fire Performing Union, whatever, while good in thought (and there are plenty of ideas for it if you check the other thread), I think will take more time and work than has been put into it before it should be even presented to the public in the crude format stages. This is a new art form, relatively speaking, and so should not be rushed into such things. If we each educate ourselves and do our best in all aspects of our own performance..from safety and transport to presentation. We work hard to do the best we can negotiating these things for ourselves, because to me that determines who really has the passion to do this as a career and who is an empassioned hobbyist. We take what we have learned and teach it to others, helping them to pave their own way without making it too easy to just step into something established. Check out unions for other forms of art, they are not so easy nor accepting. The fees, the paperwork and the guidelines are tremendous for all involved but have held up over the years, and they took years to establish. That is what should be aimed for in my eyes."Again I will use the APP as an example .. PIercing in that form was also reletively new and they where able to establish themselves in a little over a year and it is very rare that you would go to a piercer who was not certified by this organization... And they took pretty much the same steps that we are taking now.. They put the word out quickly so that the COMMUNITY could get involved right away and set the regulations and standards. The peopl involved in making a Fire Association are professionals well known in this field on this side of the continent....and NOt only that but we have all been smart enough to get mentors in this process and feedback by more recognized national circus groups that may use fire in their productions...This is not a blind leading the blind..Before The site eas even posted a few months of work went in and everyone who is currently involved is prepared for the long months ahead becasue we all see the extreme benefit...I would ask you to get involved as well...By contacting the person from the website..They are still looking for other regional representation including your region pele....

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Donia, Your answer was promoting membership and not dealing with the issues at all. Saying repetitively that it will be self-governing does not help at all, and provided no conclusive answers.Using the APP did not help either. Over here our piercers, and all body modifiers, are approved by the health board, same as a restaraunt, and so therefore, I look for that and not a self-governing agency. APP accredidation means nothing. The proof is when people walk in, see the health board certificate and then evidence of the work they have done. That is when business is done. Anything else is an ornament on the wall.I get jobs now because I am good at what I do and I have the support of every fire authority I have come across. I have agents working for me diligently and I can back this all up with paper work. I have paper referrences, from fire authorities, even the most fidgety ones will endorse me, and employers. My insurance is spotless. Proving all of that in writing is what gets me jobs, not accredidation anywhere. The self-governing agency does nothing for credibility except show a what a bunch of peers feel should be status quo. And as I said, one bad performance from that, and it reflects one everyone. If it hit the news that an APP piercer did something less than acceptible, then I wouldn't go to anyone who had that on thier wall. If a health board certified piercer does something wrong, they are shut down, legal action filed and can possibly lose their license. Does the APP stick up for this person in court? Where does the self-governing agency really help then, or have power?Where, then, are you offering real protection from the initial discussion of when bad performers wreck it for good ones? That is something that is ungovernable. You never answered legal issues. You danced around money, except to say there will be membership dues.For what? A card proving something any professional can prove without it? If something happens legally will you be there to fight on my behalf? Are you going to be able to provide lower cost anything? What if I get sick? Are you going to help me get insurance for that? Hmmmmm....then what is my hard earned money going towards, exactly? A (maybe)lawyer for you, a newsletter (possibly), and the printing of a little membership card? Do not preach to me "Membership, membership, membership" when you are proposing I pay but get little in return. There is nothing you are offering that anyone can not do for themselves. They want to get in the graces of thier fire authority, they talk responsibly and respectively to them. They want to travel, they take it up months ahead of time with the airlines. Performance tips, right here, along with a pluthera of other resources. Fire safety, refer back to the fire authority. And if you will note, "newbies" are the ones who have all of these issues. The pro's usually do not. Therefore, back to the big question what are the benefits of membership, cause I guarantee, as much as many haven't heard of the APP, many fire authorities will not concern themselves with acquainting themselves with this organization until a performer approaches them, which means we have to explain from scratch anyway. You also skipped over who will set these rules and who voted these people in place. If you are going to have a nationally or internationally recognised fire commission then the people in charge of it better be internationally known and should be put to a vote of all, not a few in one locale, for the initial upstart group.As for providing safety assurances, maybe in your own area, but every town I have performed in has had seperate requirements, some I never would've concidered and personally found useless. How can this group promise to set up guidelines accepted by all fire authorities when it changes by locale?You ignored my question of requirements for teachers?FAA and NFPA are not names of contacts, they are names of agencies that according to your statement you *will* be working with, and are not currently. This, again, did not answer any question, nor offer comfort. "You assume that becasue someone on this board is working on this project that they do not have the backing of higher ups"I did not assume anything, I asked and you did not give answers. Do not presume to know where these thoughts come from, and do not insult my intelligence. If it came to the requirements you have eluded to, then I am more than eligible to be a major part of this project. What I gather is I need to be a fire performer who is locally recognised and has the backing of the local fire authority. Come to think of it, half, or more, of the people on this board are qualified. There is nothing outstanding still that would encourage me to sign up for something like this, let alone pay my hard earned money to be told what guidelines I *should* follow. These are not enough. "As a professional I am not Lumped in with newbies... I have experience not only in fire but performance and it shows when I deal with clients." I also encourage you to not belittle people on this board. There are more than just "newbies" on here. Many Professionals I have come to respect immensely in the fire community, not only for presentation but also for the way they are respectable and handle not only clients but everyone, take active roles on this board. I found this statement incredibly disrespectful and insulting, and yet, there was still no answer as to what the requirements would be to seperate your idea of what are the "professionals" from the "newbies"."The people inolved in starting this have also had experience with other non-profit work. The people interested in doing this are also fire professionals...YEs anyone can start this..BUt do they have the experience and the support of various fire authorities??"As do many, many others on this board. So then what makes you more qualified than anyone else? I have the backing, the experience, a teaching degree, a strong legal base, the scientific data, and am one of the founders of one of the strongest pagan network organizations in WNY, 10 years performing experience including certificates in theater costume and make-up design, interactive performance and stage fighting, as well as having managed my own performing and writing careers for most of that time. Charles is well-versed in business, in many facets of performance, and is amazing when dealing with people..therefore he is qualified. What about Chris from Fireworks? An avid lurker, strong performer and amazing businessman. Draevon from Incendium? Charly from Cabiri? Our beloved Malcolm? Bec and Elke? And I technically could go on and on. Therefore, what would qualify someone to set guidelines telling us what to do? And since you brought it up, we are all on this site. Does that make us any less professional in your eyes?What you are failing to understand is that just because someone says they have the experience does not *prove* it. You are offering promises without any resolute backing. I am not assuming anything. I am going by information provided.When these answers and issues can be addressed adequately, then I would promote something of this nature. But since there is no real benefit to warrant paying this organization anything, since we don't need a newsletter to see what is going on or learn anything new really, we can find agents to represent us, print off the safety information from here, learn it cold, get insurance and promote ourselves in a way better than any card from a self-governed agency could, then I feel it would be a waste of anyone's time and money. If it works for Seattle, then great. On an international scale, I just don't see the benefits being worth it, especially when there is nothing to truly keep it in check and nothing to really benefit a true performer. Perhaps you should gear this to newbies, they might be more apt to need the education. ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I forgot but wanted to mention:"I trust the peole involved are professionals"If you only trust but don't know that they are, then how can anyone else trust you to represent us as professionals? By what criteria do you judge someone to be a professional?"Again I say it will be a self governed orgaization govern by the members"And if it is governed by the members, and we have to pay to be members..??? See a problem? Why pay?I am not trying to be a pain, but for an organization dealing with an art medium so deadly, in an art so widespread and, what you feel membership to be, which is imperitive to my career, there are more issues than what you are talking up involved, and I am trying to point them out. Think of it as retail sales where I am a customer and am asking you questions. I think your responses at this time ignored my concerns as a professional, and as a perspective purchaser. Therefore, you lost a sale. Your referencing the APP is like someone going to a car dealership and being told to seek answers at the clothing store. It doesn't work. That is also something you might want to concider when responding in the future. APP means nothing to people outside the piercing community, and obviously to several outside your locale.I am not being mean or anything, despite what my posts may read like to you. I am trying to get you to realize that a group such as this is not imperitive to professionals unless you offer more than what you are. I am also trying to point out that self-governing from one tiny spot in the world, at this point, doesn't work for even a national group, let alone international, and if I am going to start a faction of this then I want federal, state and local government involved with certificates and all. I want training people with educations and paperwork to the nose (like I have from my research when I started), not just performing and fire experience. I want to see a not-for-profit number and contacts outside of the group so that I can verify what the "home office" says. It is simply good sales. Right now what you are offering, half this board can supply to me, and therefore what you offer is not in anyway special, unique, tempting or worth money. There are entirely too many issues at hand right now that there are no firm answers to. I am not trying to discourage you, but am more trying to get you to change your approach or thought process about this group, especially when trying to promote it.I think the arrogance which is was presented in turned me off more. What I got from your post was that because you are a fire performer you are more qualified than anyone on this board to work on this project. I read that you feel you are better than anyone on this board, because this board is geared more for "newbies". Yet if you read through the posts, many people on here are professionals, offering help and advice. The attitude I read in your post was offensive to me as a professional and if I were a "newbie" I would also be offended. I also felt that it came across as more of a money making scheme than anything truly founded. When I see insurance discounts, reduced permit fees and certified teachers, then I will think more about it being worth money.It is needed, I think, by the "newbies" you are trying to seperate yourself from, instead of by established professionals, who are established for a reason. I think that drawing that distinction in your mind is a dangerous thing, because who then would ever progress out of "newbie" and into pro as the established pro's progress as well? In that scope you are limiting the perspective members drastically, and truthfully, there aren't enough fire professionals who choose this as their primary trade to make this organization work, without including "newbies". On the board there are "newbies", in the world of spinning there are novices, which is much easier to work up the ladder from I think.No anger, just points I have learned from much experience and my interpretations of your writing.
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 31 January 2002).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP

Total posts: 1013
Posted:For a comparative example... Years ago I belonged to the Electrical Contractors Association of New Zealand (ECANZ).Membership was $800/per annumWe saved about $600 per annum on insurance and running costs by belonging to the association. They sent me lots of newletters of stuff I already new after being in Business for 10 years. They did help apprentices with their training, which was good for apprentices.No one I ever worked for cared if I was a member of the ECANZ. They hired me because of me and what I could do for them. I never got a job based on being a part of the association. I was always personally liable for anything going wrong, not the association.After a few years I realised that I was $200 better off with out them. However I do recommend new Electricians join ECANZ to help them get started. We did have a shortage of electricians and had to encourage more into the industry.I do think an association will be good for newbies
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"May your balls always burn"

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Ignis Devoco


member
Location: Prato, Italy

Total posts: 67
Posted:Pele in the "" Me in The ******"I forgot but wanted to mention:""I trust the people involved are professionals"*********Yes the people involved are professionals but we also have new comers involved as well..WE feel it important to have input from the whole range...**********"If you only trust but don't know that they are, then how can anyone else trust you to represent us as professionals? By what criteria do you judge someone to be a professional?""Again I say it will be a self governed orgaization govern by the members""And if it is governed by the members, and we have to pay to be members..??? See a problem? Why pay?"*************There are a lot of self governed organizatuion where the mebers who govern pay to be members...A lot of non-profits give theri members voting rights....This is not a money making scheme...Fees would be minimal..But again this is all a suggestion...*****************"I am not trying to be a pain, but for an organization dealing with an art medium so deadly, in an art so widespread and, what you feel membership to be, which is imperitive to my career, there are more issues than what you are talking up involved, and I am trying to point them out."******** I think you assume that WE are not aware of the other issues....There are soo many.. And each one will be given careful consideration and thought regardless of your opposition********** "Think of it as retail sales where I am a customer and am asking you questions. I think your responses at this time ignored my concerns as a professional, and as a perspective purchaser. Therefore, you lost a sale. Your referencing the APP is like someone going to a car dealership and being told to seek answers at the clothing store. It doesn't work. That is also something you might want to concider when responding in the future. APP means nothing to people outside the piercing community, and obviously to several outside your locale." ******************I think you are wrong...Me referencing the APP is not me referencing a complete opposite..The organization will be set up in a similar manner so if you have concerns about how it is going to run ..DO YOUR REASEARCH And look it up...AS an informed consumer this is what I would do..I would look at the App site..I would understand that PIercing is similar in that it is an emerging art form, with health and safety issues involved. I would reaearch ther org and then I would understand where the crazy fire people got their idea's and inspiration*******************"I am not being mean or anything, despite what my posts may read like to you. I am trying to get you to realize that a group such as this is not imperitive to professionals unless you offer more than what you are. I am also trying to point out that self-governing from one tiny spot in the world, at this point, doesn't work for even a national group, let alone international, and if I am going to start a faction of this then I want federal, state and local government involved with certificates and all. I want training people with educations and paperwork to the nose (like I have from my research when I started), not just performing and fire experience. I want to see a not-for-profit number and contacts outside of the group so that I can verify what the "home office" says. It is simply good sales. Right now what you are offering, half this board can supply to me, and therefore what you offer is not in anyway special, unique, tempting or worth money. There are entirely too many issues at hand right now that there are no firm answers to."**********************IN all honesty we have enough people interested that loosing a sale to you isn't going to stop us in our tracks Though you have brought up good and valid points I have siad that those are things that have and will be addresses....Like I said before we can and will offer all those things you are speaking of...Federal, state and local authorities...But I think your wrong in thinking that Fire performers should not be a big part of the organization......*****************"I am not trying to discourage you, but am more trying to get you to change your approach or thought process about this group, especially when trying to promote it."******************We will not change our current course of action based on one persons opinion when we have gotten a positive response from so many others as to our direction and goals*********************"I think the arrogance which is was presented in turned me off more. What I got from your post was that because you are a fire performer you are more qualified than anyone on this board to work on this project. I read that you feel you are better than anyone on this board, because this board is geared more for "newbies". Yet if you read through the posts, many people on here are professionals, offering help and advice. The attitude I read in your post was offensive to me as a professional and if I were a "newbie" I would also be offended. I also felt that it came across as more of a money making scheme than anything truly founded. When I see insurance discounts, reduced permit fees and certified teachers, then I will think more about it being worth money."*****************************It was not arrogant of me to get the ball rolling by posting a mission statement and such right away.. This is a way for us to connect with others who are interested...and Pele..It is very clear that you are not., which is fine with us... I think you seriously mis interpreted what was printed and what was said. And are making gross assumtions based on misrepresentations.I have been teaching fire arts for almost three years now...I have worked with all levels and not once considered myself better than them...I have also worked hard to develope relationships with local and state and federal authorities so I may freely practice what I do and the information that I have is good. YOu asked me why I felt that I was qulaified....My answer did not say because I am better than you ..What I said was I am a professional who has put the work into getting this information.. and I am willing to put the work into an organization set up to disseminate that information....You aksed me where we would get the money to do such a large thing..I said most non-profits chagre MINIMAL membership fees to take care of operating costs....I think you are blowing this up to be bigger than it is..It will start small at first and then grow pending upon those who think it is valuable..and right now a lot of people do...You have an opportunity to get involved...That is all I said..It is not just me in seattle.. It is a few people from different cities on the west coast..I fyou have more questions you may want to contact Tedward as well.. WE have both been puriong our time and energy into this becasue we have been told it is important and we as well feel it is important....***********************"It is needed, I think, by the "newbies" you are trying to seperate yourself from, instead of by established professionals, who are established for a reason. I think that drawing that distinction in your mind is a dangerous thing, because who then would ever progress out of "newbie" and into pro as the established pro's progress as well? In that scope you are limiting the perspective members drastically, and truthfully, there aren't enough fire professionals who choose this as their primary trade to make this organization work, without including "newbies". On the board there are "newbies", in the world of spinning there are novices, which is much easier to work up the ladder from I think."*******************NO distintion was made between Newbies and professionals.. I think you need to read Mission statement again.... Before you answer...And read it well.*************"No anger, just points I have learned from much experience and my interpretations of your writing."*****************NO anger here either...just points I have learnes from much experience and my interpretations of your writing as well..I do get the feeling that you are blasting us for taking this initiative...and that you question our motives and all I can say is that this project is being forged by people who have a strong desire to be safe and to share their knowledge...*************Malcom,I have hired contractors for jobs based n their accredidation...IT told me that they had done the training and work involved to be a good choice...They had the skills neccessary to do the job..THough I get the feeling you are not disagreeing with me..
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..I realy think this would be a great resource for new comers... I teach a class and have for the last couple of year and I see how it builds and automatic community of like minded artists, this is what it will be about..these are my motvies...When I got started in fire I was on my own..no one to help..When I got experience I promised I would share...This is a part of that...DOniaIgnis Devoco Industrial Fire CIrcuswww.ignisdevoco.com"Where ther is sorrow, I seek the flame."[This message has been edited by Ignis Devoco (edited 31 January 2002).]


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Donia, "DO YOUR REASEARCH And look it up"You accuse me of making assumptions two or more times, which I have not. I am asking questions of things which I did not find addressed. However, this is one of the gravest assumptions of all. First of all, yelling is rude and all caps is concidered yelling online. I request that you do not yell at me again please, nor insult my intelligence, which telling me to reread the mission statement or the other website is an insult to me. Secondly, I did read the mission statement, several times, and have in fact attached the questions that it spurned right afterward. I read the site you referrenced and found it irrelevant. As Malcolm has proven, there are hundreds of these type organizations world-wide, most with websites that I could post up here for referrence. Many of these groups are more suited for novices or beginners because of the information they supply. However, I am questioning you on how you will provide more than this for the professionals, which is what you seem to be tackling.In addition to the yelling you took my questioning as opposition or complete disinterest and blatantly informed me once you think I am wrong in my opinion of your referencing the APP. You informed me no less than three times that you felt my involvement or line of thought is unnecessary and that what I have to say is essentially worthless, as is the possibility of my membership. I deem this as extremely rude treatment, and I wonder is this how you will handle questioning dissents in the future of your "self-governing democracy" where everyone is a valued participant and member?If you had read my statements thoroughly you would have read that if this proved to be useful, then I would be interested in helping out on the East Coast or being a member, or at least promoting it to those I thought it would help. This is my form of market research. I ask questions when I buy cars, tools, insurance, etc. Why would this be any different? I am asking questions and not receiving answers. Questions based solely on the mission statement: "To work with fire artists from around the country to set self governed national safety standards that will meet and exceed federally regulated standards based in part on scientific research and study"Since every locale (literally township) has different fire codes, how do you intend toset a "nationally recognised self-governing safety standards" when many codes are not similarly recognised town to town? Especially since individual guidelines can be hundreds of pages long, and that isn't including state nor federal, and townships tend to be far more stringent than state and federal standards. Please do not tell me you intend on contact every single township for the codes, as this monumetal task would take years. In my county alone there are 10 townships, each with seperate codes. And I live in one of the smaller counties in NY! In the city of Rochester, there is a book hundreds of pages long of fire codes, and about 15 Fire Marshall's each viewing these codes differently. How do you intend to address this, since the NFPA will be of little help on these more stringent local ordinances?Also, fire professionals have been trained to put fire out, and do not necessarily know as much about the fuels as a learned fire performer, who does the scientific research on behalf of the fire community, not just information handed out by the fire marshall, or on the net MSDS reports? Where were they trained? (For example, I have an avid nationally recognised chemist trained at Colombia U., the brother of a friend, who works trying to figure out fuel issues for me. Currently he is trying to develope a safer fuel and possibly with colors.)"To work with already established fire associations such as the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) and federal agencies such as the FAA to establish self governed national safety guidelines and standards for such things as performance and travel."Since the FAA only sets guidelines for airlines to follow and airlines are able to govern over them even more stringently, what airlines are you going to work with specifically to see that this doesn't happen?Same thing with "nationally recognised guidelines". These can be treated even more strictly on the state and local levels, how do you intend to deal with this? "To educate the general public about the viability and safety of fire art through various workshops and presentations""To provide education, training and support services to fire artists of the..."Who are the key members of this "self-governing group" and what are their qualifications for teaching? Ie: Where did their safety certification come from? Where did their teacher education come from? Where did they receive their first aide certification? If teaching performance, where did they receive their performance training and/or certification from? Being a performer and teaching on a weeknight does not constitute the ability to establish a mainstream program such as this.What type of support? Legal? Medical?"To build relationships and produce interdisciplinary works with other emerging artists in a variety of disciplines including but not limited to, Dance, Multimedia Installation, Multimodal Interaction/Recognition, Theatre, DJ, VJ, and Live music. "Who determines the worthiness of these relationships in each area? Who selects the artists and based on what criteria?"Minimal Fees" can mean anything from $20 to $500. A more exact amount would be appreciated."To accredit persons involved in the fire arts who maintain national safety guidelines, including but not limited to, performers, tool builders, safety technicians, costume and set designers"How do you propose to actually make certain that once people reach accredidation they follow the rules? How will you go about screening possible members? How do you propose to protect the membership when someone accredited performs, has an accident, and it reflects poorly on the accredidation? What will the accredidation process entail, for all possible members, not just performers, since you seem to be widening the scope?Non- Mission Statement Questions:You mentioned possibly making it a requirement to attend and to teach workshoppes. How do you deem who is able to teach and who is not? How much will these workshoppes cost in addition to the membership fees (since there is an overhead for these as well)? What if someone is uncomfortable doing this, or does not have the time? Does it then effect their membership status?What type of duration and contract will you be having to obtain your not-for-profit status?How long will membership contracts be?What type/specialty of lawyer will you be having on retainer? Contracts? Regulations? Copyright? Business? Will this person be available to represent the fire artists in case of accident or incedent? Will s/he be private claims or corporate? Where is this person's training from?What firm is your accountant from? How open for public viewing will accounts be? Where did s/he gain his/her accredidation from?What can be expected as far as newsletter, information, especially the non-web based versions, etc? Especially as far as frequency and quality information (not ads.)In other words, what specific tangible material will membership fees be paying for?How will votes be done in a public way so everyone can be assured that their vote truly counted?Will you offer any backing as far as if a venue decides to be slack on their end?Where "clown"/ performers insurance has proved completely acceptible by all the fire authorities I have come across, what type of insurance changes will you offer and for what price?What other discounts will you be offering? Materials? Permits and such fees? Airline and travel?How will this be kept seperate from other projects and not be used as a self-promotional type thing for the persons or groups in charge? Especially since the mission statement is very close to the proposal I received of Flameology?"As a professional I am not Lumped in with newbies""Yes the people involved are professionals but we also have new comers involved as well...NO distintion was made between Newbies and professionals"These statements, from two different posts, are in direct contradiction. ""I trust the people involved are professionals""This is a quote I took from you, and you labelled it as being from me, do not misquote me please."It was not arrogant of me to get the ball rolling by posting a mission statement and such right away.."This has been discussed and even attempted before, please do not think you got the ball rolling at all, you merely stepped in and kicked it in another direction. I am fairly certain that phuzzz is not associated with you when he first posted his idea as well, or the others that came before him."What I said was I am a professional who has put the work into getting this information."As have many others. Yet again, where are your qualifications any better than anyone else's? I never said I was opposed to you or this. But if people are going to be paying for accredidation then I feel it should be more backed up than what a vague mission statement offers, as well as a more than vague current enrollment list (several others is not answering the question. Neither is "Talk to so and so" without any real contact or background information. Please send it over, perhaps he can answer my questions fully.)My point. The are hundreds of us who don't know you. There are hundreds of us who haven't seen you or any of the other Western Coasters. How then, are we supposed to trust that without any real accredidation on you as an individual, let alone an organization? There is no legal backing for what you offer. You have not provided any certifications to support your qualifications. ("your" meaning as a collective, not personal and I do feel you are taking this personal.)"I think you assume that WE are not aware of the other issues....There are soo many.. And each one will be given careful consideration and thought regardless of your opposition"If they are being given careful concideration then why won't you answer the questions addressing these issues? Donia, that was a Bush answer if I have ever heard one!
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And if you haven't answers then I feel what you have posted is too soon for what you hope it to be. And again, I am not opposing, I am challenging. There are extreme and distinct difference between the two.You have not proved to have any resources that aren't readily available to even the most humble of "newbies" already. You have continually made the statements "We will be..." when what is needed is "We are and We have" with the resources to back it up to help provide assurances.What you are failing to see is that I am not opposing. I am posing questions anyone who is even perspectively looking at being a member should ask. I am protecting their interest as well as yours. If what you provide somehow backfires, in this liability and lawsuit happy land, you will find yourselves in a world of hurt. I am challenging you to look at this from a wider point of view than APP standards.Sincerely,(And btw, as a side note, piercing, and all body adorment modifications, has been around for thousands of years and, in this area at least, since the 60's. To claim it to be an emerging art is not recognising it's rich history, even in our own society. It has far from the emerging process and has already blossomed and evolved Donia.) ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Ignis Devoco


member
Location: Prato, Italy

Total posts: 67
Posted:Pele,Donia, "DO YOUR REASEARCH And look it up" You accuse me of making assumptions two or more times, which I have not. I am asking questions of things which I did not find addressed. However, this is one of the gravest assumptions of all. First of all, yelling is rude and all caps is concidered yelling online. I request that you do not yell at me again please, nor insult my intelligence, which telling me to reread the mission statement or the other website is an insult to me. ************************* You insult me by assuming that we have not even thought of these questions already.You are saying nothing new Ms. Pele, I would request that you quit insulting my intelligence.. Which is saying to me the same thing over and over and telling me that my points are not valid either.**********************Secondly, I did read the mission statement, several times, and have in fact attached the questions that it spurned right afterward. I read the site you referrenced and found it irrelevant. As Malcolm has proven, there are hundreds of these type organizations world-wide, most with websites that I could post up here for referrence. Many of these groups are more suited for novices or beginners because of the information they supply. **************Malcom has proven nothing, the site I referenced was not irrelevant.. and no most of the sites are not just suited for beginners..a lot of them are professionally focused as well*************However, I am questioning you on how you will provide more than this for the professionals, which is what you seem to be tackling.In addition to the yelling you took my questioning as opposition or complete disinterest and blatantly informed me once you think I am wrong in my opinion of your referencing the APP. You informed me no less than three times that you felt my involvement or line of thought is unnecessary and that what I have to say is essentially worthless, as is the possibility of my membership. I deem this as extremely rude treatment, and I wonder is this how you will handle questioning dissents in the future of your "self-governing democracy" where everyone is a valued participant and member? ********************* Considering your treatment of the subject manner and the way in which you choose to represent yourself, I would have to say that anyone who thought of what I had to say as Irrelevant would politely get told to go away.*************************If you had read my statements thoroughly you would have read that if this proved to be useful, then I would be interested in helping out on the East Coast or being a member, or at least promoting it to those I thought it would help. This is my form of market research. I ask questions when I buy cars, tools, insurance, etc. Why would this be any different? I am asking questions and not receiving answers. ***********************Interesting that you would not pose these questions to me in private and that you would publically display your issues with thisNothing that you have said even hints at you wanting to be involved with this..SO I propose that if you are interested in being involved that you come up with some of these answers on your own and submit htme to us or get ahold of me personally.*****************"As a professional I am not Lumped in with newbies""Yes the people involved are professionals but we also have new comers involved as well...NO distintion was made between Newbies and professionals" These statements, from two different posts, are in direct contradiction. ""I trust the people involved are professionals"" This is a quote I took from you, and you labelled it as being from me, do not misquote me please. ******************oh pleasewith the way this has been going ..that was possibly a harmless mistake PeleWith me trying to make sure I am quoting you iright and you quoting me right..I made a mistake and put the quotations around the wrong thing..But NO they are not indirect contradiction of each otherSaying that I trust professionals wiil be involved soes not mean I do not think newcomers would not be involved either**************"It was not arrogant of me to get the ball rolling by posting a mission statement and such right away.." This has been discussed and even attempted before, please do not think you got the ball rolling at all, you merely stepped in and kicked it in another direction. I am fairly certain that phuzzz is not associated with you when he first posted his idea as well, or the others that came before him. ********************You misunderstand what I am saying hereIF it will help you I will post it on a completely different topicI felt that this was an appropriate line of thought to post thisIF you diagree well then that is your issue***************************"What I said was I am a professional who has put the work into getting this information." As have many others. Yet again, where are your qualifications any better than anyone else's? ******************************************I never said my qualifications were superior to anyone elses and I bid you to show where I have if I did*****************************************I never said I was opposed to you or this. But if people are going to be paying for accredidation then I feel it should be more backed up than what a vague mission statement offers, as well as a more than vague current enrollment list (several others is not answering the question. Neither is "Talk to so and so" without any real contact or background information. Please send it over, perhaps he can answer my questions fully.) My point. The are hundreds of us who don't know you. There are hundreds of us who haven't seen you or any of the other Western Coasters. How then, are we supposed to trust that without any real accredidation on you as an individual, let alone an organization? There is no legal backing for what you offer. You have not provided any certifications to support your qualifications. ("your" meaning as a collective, not personal and I do feel you are taking this personal.) ****** for the hundreds of you on the east coast who know nothing of those of us on the west coast, there are hundreds of others who do know of us..... And considereing some of your comments I think you are taking some of this personally as well.*****"I think you assume that WE are not aware of the other issues....There are soo many.. And each one will be given careful consideration and thought regardless of your opposition" If they are being given careful concideration then why won't you answer the questions addressing these issues? Donia, that was a Bush answer if I have ever heard one! And if you haven't answers then I feel what you have posted is too soon for what you hope it to be. And again, I am not opposing, I am challenging. There are extreme and distinct difference between the two. **********************You are teetering on the edge of personal attack here PeleI am not going to answer these questions because as I have clearly stated they are still being considered. The idea is to get people involved to help answer them..IF we want to create a national or regional organization than we have to get more people involved to agrre to answers to these questionsDont you understand what I am saying??*********************************You have not proved to have any resources that aren't readily available to even the most humble of "newbies" already. You have continually made the statements "We will be..." when what is needed is "We are and We have" with the resources to back it up to help provide assurances. ****************I disagree with you..I get 2-4 new people a week in my class telling me there is not enough information out there..there are not enough resources for newbies or for professionals for that matterI have continually sadi that before we can Have anything We need more people involved from other parts of the country..there are a few right now especially from the west coast but we need a better variety before we go making Concrete Descicions about standards***********************What you are failing to see is that I am not opposing. I am posing questions anyone who is even perspectively looking at being a member should ask. I am protecting their interest as well as yours. If what you provide somehow backfires, in this liability and lawsuit happy land, you will find yourselves in a world of hurt. I am challenging you to look at this from a wider point of view than APP standards. ******************* You do not need to challenge me to look at it from a larger standpoint...What you are failing to accept is that I do have a wider viewpoint of this than the APP standards and am using them as a good example of what we are trying to accomplish.. And I think it is arrogant of you to think you speak for everyone and that ou are trying to protect them and myself*******************************Sincerely, (And btw, as a side note, piercing, and all body adorment modifications, has been around for thousands of years and, in this area at least, since the 60's. To claim it to be an emerging art is not recognising it's rich history, even in our own society. It has far from the emerging process and has already blossomed and evolved Donia.) *****************Side note piercing in it's more recent renessaince can be considered an emerging art...Fire has been around for thousands of years but as an art form it is emerging...************************************************ You assume that we have not considererd these questions. And what I am saying to you is that we have.. You think it is rude to all caps you ..?? I think you are rude for not reading my responses...I have said over and over that we will address these issues and that we have already come up with these issues. I am not going to answer them individually for you in this forum and maybe that's what it comes down to... I get the feeling that you think these are issues we have not thought of...NOthing you are saying is new...Again I will say that the idea is to get peole involved to answer these questions together Us posting the mission statement and such is a call to interested parties to get involved...So most of all I will thank you for your insite. But again I will stress that your points are nothing new If you are put off by that then so be it.......I think I will be stopping this discussion with you in this forum..If you would like to continue it you may e-mail me ..*********************Love & LightDoniaIgnis Devoco Industrial Fire Circuswww.ignisdevoco.com"Where there is sorrow, I seek the flame."------------------Love & LightDoniaIgnis Devoco Industrial Fire Circuswww.ignisdevoco.com"Where there is sorrow, I seek the flame."[This message has been edited by Ignis Devoco (edited 31 January 2002).]

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP

Total posts: 1013
Posted:Donia,I believe Pele raised some valid questions and points that do need to be worked out.I had spoken to a lawyer friend and this bringing together of minds will bring about a lot of work,. A lot of this work will have to be done with lawyers and specialist organisations and it will be expensive to bring about.We do know that much work will need to be done. We know this will cost a lot of money and time. We don't know how much? and we don't know how it would stand legally.If I have a company that knew that much information, I think it would be hard to get investors interested. I suggest you do some more work get it going in your area and then and only then if it works and is successful take it to the world.Best to start small and grow slowly once methods and structure is proven.Pele and I care much about what happens to these arts. Moderators are their to help and protect people visiting this site. And I will not allow any ventures to be promoted on this site (even though I have disclaimers on the contents of this bulletin board it may not be enough in the court of law if proven a bad venture). If we are not seen to care then we may be seen as supporting it as it stands.You do not see it as a risk and that is why you are going to spend time developing it.You have all the right intentions and it is a good idea if you can pull it off. I would support your venture once it is fully functional and proven. I do wish you all the best in getting there.You have your mission, now to complete it
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RegardsMalcolm


"May your balls always burn"

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