Forums > Social Chat > Racism is alive and well in the USA.

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
Arc
member
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Member Since: 13th Jan 2002
Total posts: 17
Posted:I am a Canadian transplant from Vancouver Canada, living in San Diego. I first lived in Los Angeles but I had to get out of there. Too big too much for me. I've been reading the threads and I have to say that there are truths said in everyones postings. The first thing I would say is it's not safe to throw rocks in glass houses. I can say that racism is alive and well in Canada too. It is, it's there but it's not the same. Everyone falls to some type of discrimination or prejudice. Like "Women are poor drivers or Japanese can't drive or White men can't dance/jump, etc... The difference here in the USA is time, history, and population. The scars of racism are deep here. Americans tend to take things to the extreme. Like the drug war for instance. Logically we know that legalization will eliminate the crime and provide safe clean product but there is just no room for such thought here. More control will just have to be added on. Strip away more civil liberties and someday we will prevail. The average American welcomes these atrocities so that they can feel safe again. Take the "American way of life". Like there is no other way of life in the world. It's our way or the highway. Your just stupid and ignorant if you don't see it our way. The idea is that since we (USA) have the best level of life in the entire world then how can you even question our claim to being the only way to live. My fellow American workers berated me and insulted me and my county(Canada) for weeks after the Sept. 11 incident. Laughing at the efforts of Canada sending booties for the the search dogs whose feet were being sliced to shreds. Hahahahaaa is that all Canada can do hahahaha. The news annouced that Canadian intelligence sent word of an impending bomb threat and all they could say was "Canadians have intelligence. hahahahahahaaa". Or my favorite "Canadians only show up to war when peace breaks out." We've fought in ever World War, years before the Americans ever showed up. Americans only react when something bad happens to them. Otherwise it's status quo. Do you think the race issue would have ever been addressed if it wasn't for the riots and gangsters killing white people.It will take generations to weed out prejudism here. Overall, my experiences here have shown me that in fact a large, not all, majority of the white society does want the black community to succeed. They just don't want them in thier neighborhoods. Slowly this is changing. In the east, Dallas way, the christian baptists are probably still the biggest racists left in the USA. A large number of the black community still hate the white man. You feel it in thier eyes and body language. Justifyably so. Years of mistreatment have created a deep mistrust of white people. Now the focus is on the Muslim populations of the world. On the day of Sept. 11 happened not a person in my office new anything about the plight of the Afghanis or other Middle East issues such as the Palistinians. I do believe that the USA is an isolationist country. The USA lives in the "effect" not the "cause" state of mind. Everything is good until the shit hits the fan. I am not sure if it is extreme wealth which is the catolyst or the media or both. I goes something like this. The average person doesn't have a desire to know what is happening around the world because the world is truly good to them here. I get up in the morning, I have an enormous breakfast, I kiss the wife and kids and I'm off to my job where I make tons of cash which I can spend on my hobbies over the weekend. So what's the problem. Oh there are splashes of bad things from around the world on the news but really what's more important, Bill Clintons blow job, Oprah's fight with weight, or celebrities drug addiction battles. I have met people here who will not read the bad bits because it brings them down. So what's the net effect. Big busines and government doing what they need to do without the interest of the citizens and pissed of citizens when things go bad. The world reacts to the USA in a negative way because they see thier way of life being shat on or manipulated and changed to support the American dream. While the vast majority of Americans know abosolutely nothing about what these other countries want out of life or thier culture. I want to finish this by saying that I have met many absolutely wonderful and fascinating people in America. The vast majority of people here really are wonderful caring individuals. It's not as if the individual is schooled to be this way, it is part of a superpower mentality which I think any nation would face if the only neighbors it has a are Canada and Mexico. It's isolation by proximity not design.

Delete Topic

Wren
member
Location: Mt. Horeb, Wi, USA
Member Since: 28th Oct 2001
Total posts: 33
Posted:First of all, thank you, Arc, for your post. I realize some people reading this will not like it, but I think many of the people on this board are glad you posted it.Just some examples to add to your post:"Overall, my experiences here have shown me that in fact a large, not all, majority of the white society does want the black community to succeed. They just don't want them in thier neighborhoods." My lovely coworkers aren't really the most tolerant people. One day we were talking about a murder that had happened at a grocery store in downtown Madison, WI. The talk soon turned to what a "bad part of town" Park Street was and why it was so bad. (Compared to other cities, Madison doesn't really have any major bad areas of town). It was then that Mary Jane, my favorite coworker *sarcasm*, said, "well you know why that is, don't you? It's because all of the blacks." I looked around in dismay as the rest of the tellers just nodded in agreement.Also, I just read a letter to the editor about reparations for the black community from the days of slavery. I can't form a clear opinion on this matter because I don't really know of any way to resolve this easily, but I was dismayed by what I read. The guy's letter went something like this: "I keep reading about people wanting to give the African Americans money for something that happened over 125 years ago. If anything, these blacks should be giving money to the state of Wisconsin. We sheltered their runaways for years with the Underground Railroad, and we also sent troops to fight to free them. This idea of paying them after we freed them is ludicrous.""On the day of Sept. 11 happened not a person in my office new anything about the plight of the Afghanis or other Middle East issues such as the Palistinians."I remember signing an online petition 3 or 4 years ago asking the government to do something about the human rights conditions (especially the women) over in Afghanistan. While some people I sent this to did (I didn't create it, just passed along), I got some replies--even from people that claimed to be liberals and all--saying that we shouldn't bother because Afghanistan isn't worth anything."Oh there are splashes of bad things from around the world on the news but really what's more important, Bill Clintons blow job, Oprah's fight with weight, or celebrities drug addiction battles."Back when I was in 8th grade (I think), the States sent troops in to occupy and enforce a government in Haiti (I'm not really sure about the particulars, its been a while). A censored version of this made the news for a little while, but suddenly OJ Simpson was being chased down the highway by police cars. I don't even remember hearing about Haiti on mainstream news after this.As my sociology teacher told me, one of the 10 key values of the United States is group superiority. As much as I'd like to see this disappear, I don't picture it happening any time soon.-Wren

-WrenAnd that, my friends, is condensed evil.

Delete

Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:all well and good, but what has this got to so with poi?I appreciate that everyone has a right to express their opinions and everyone likes to reach a broader audience, but is this page really the place to do it?Sorry, but recently there have been a fair few political threads going on, which whilst interesting don't really relate to the site in any way. If people want to rant (fot want of a better word) then can they not set up their own board instead of using another site's bandwith? Sorry again...

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I just want to say don't confuse the stand point of a nation's political representation with the actual views of the people. There are those who are ill-educated or who are completely ignorant, and it is in many ways not their fault, with media picking and choosing what to feed our curious and hungry minds, and governed over school programs, we can only have as much knowledge base as we are first exposed to and then, expose ourselves to. Those who never were encourage to think and discover on thier own as children are more prone to fall prey to social-political agendas.To paraphrase Sir Thomas Moore "We first raise people to be thieves and then punish them for those actions to which their ill education first exposed them to."Is it right? No but it is a fact.We condemn people for being raised with a fear and ill-education that our government sanctioned. I don't feel anger nor pity for any of these people, white, black, male or female...whatever. I feel pity that they do not take the reigns of their own mind into hand to make their own decisions.And..if want to look at the historical outlook of oppression, and who deserves compensation...no one does. Every culture at some point in time or another has been oppressed by another culture, and some more so than African Americans. Natives on every continent. Women more so than any. Religious beliefs. Skin color. All of these are represented on the oppression charts. No one seems immune. Again, not right but historically unwaivering, and long before the US ever came into it's meager exsistance.As for US/Canadian relations....I live closer to Canada than most any point in the US. My family hails from Quebec, I have friends and family still in Canada.I know for a fact that some Canadians are just as bad when it comes to condemning American's as some American's are Canadian's. It is not a cultural/country/continental issue, it is the basic beastial issue of dominance and the search for it. Humans at their core, are animals just like all other fuzzy critters on this earth. The difference is that we have the intelligence to invent moral standards attempting to control those animalistic tendencies so that we can pretend to be above all else. Survival of the fittest and dominancy is as alive in the "evolved" human race as it is ina pack of wolves or a pride of lions, or any other such animal hierarchy.Oppression and repression are historical facts, since the beginning of time. If it hasn't change in a couple thousand years, I doubt it ever will, long after the fall of the US. Depressing but true. I don't think there is a course of action other than tolerance and patience with those who are illeducated, for many are so stuck in their ways they do not want to change. Perhaps though, we can reach the children, that is where the hope lies.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:The stereotype of the "Ugly American" is turning out to be pretty close to the truth. I had never realized just how seriously we take every thing untill I spent a few months travleing about the UK.I think that we as Americans just need so sit back and chill out some. Everyone seems to strive for their nice suburban home with a Lexus SUV parked in front, 2.5 kids, a big screen television and all the latest video games. Latley it seems that you're not a patriot unless you have an hour and a half long commute to work, screaming and shooting at the other motorists, and all the while talking on the cell phone trying to cram a McDonalds breakfast down your already fat American face. Well, that may be the American dream, but it's not my dream as an American.I think that because predjudice on all levels is a commonly taught behavior, and so racism and bigotry just follow naturally. Elemantery school teaches us to lust after the coolest new basketball sneakers, and to race to get the new violent video game, and on and on and on. We are taught very young to give into peer pressure, rather than stick to our own values. We are not taught, as Americans, to want things simply because we want them. We are taught to want them because our neighbors have them and TV tells us we should want them. So we slowly stop looking at ourselves and how we live our lives and only keep our heads down, spending another two hours in traffic to buy the new vidio game for the boy. We start going along with the crowd because it's just so much easier to think what our peers think rather than to come up with opinions of our own, and we have to be up at 5:30 in the morning so We don't have time to think anyway, or we'll miss our favorite TV shows. We are taught that we have to out do every one and be better then them, and rather than actually getting up and doing that we find little short cuts and ways to belittle those that we perceive as even a minor threat.It's a sad state of affairs, when common sense is no longer common. Someone spills their coffee and they have to sue, 'cuz it couldn't be their fault that *they* spilled *their own* coffee. This style of thinking has soaked into all parts of American life. So someone gets mad at us, and we automaticly go on the defensive because we taought ourselves to believe that it can't be our fault. This style of thought is going to be the end of us all. I'd bet a million dollars on it.------------------If you love something, set it on fire.[This message has been edited by SickpuPpy (edited 15 January 2002).]

Jesus helps me trick people.

Delete

tallicaburton
member
Location: Troy, NY for school (Austin, T...
Member Since: 23rd Nov 2001
Total posts: 51
Posted:Wow. Thats about all I can say. I live in Texas, and am a senior in High School. Most of the views that you expressed were totally foreign to me. As in "majority of the white society does want the black community to succeed". I guess I didn't get that memo. I have many black friends, and I am white (and part Puerto Rican). I think people don't want to risk getting burned by reaching out, which is why sometimes it seems there are racial clicks. But I see so many inter racial couples at my school black white, black latino, white chinese, white latino that I have hope for my generation. Maybe I'm sheltered because I go to a public school where gangs, drugs, and fighting really aren't problems, (NYC?) but hopefully not. I realize that since you did move here from Canada, you probably don't understand American Culture as well as I do, or at least I hope I know it better since I grew up here. I will say that yes, there are always going to be people who don't want others to succeed based on what race they are. However, I feel that as areas of the U.S. that are less tolerant are exposed to new and different ideas, they will begin to change. Of course it won't be immediate. But as children grow up, and their parents say whatever race is bad, the world will say different. Hopefully person-by-person, city-by-city my nation will begin to change. I could write pages and pages on this, because it hurts so badly. I seek to understand people first, and never to label. I know I do just that, but I'm trying. It makes me want to cry, knowing that I never can live that purely. I realize Arc is like that too, but I think you just encountered too many people who don't want to think. People who want to point fingers at Canada, people who think bombing Afghanistan is the best thing to do, people who think that we can change the hatred some people feel towards the U.S. I'm not right, that's what I believe though. I believe these are truths, but I want to be open to other truths. I don't think any ill of Canada. You can't label a people by what their nation does. I won't do that to Canada, don't do that to America.I don't agree with your "American way of life".... You don't even explain what this "American way of life" is, otherwise I would present your points one by one and explain how me and my friends think differently. I know I'm not different though, or special in that regard, everyone wants to think differently, but I think lots of people are just doing their best to be the best they can. "Our way or the highway"..., I don't think that's right either.I do harbor a certain prejudice against some Americans though. John/Jane Doe on their way to the office in their white SUV, talking on the cell phone, with an America sticker next to their "Vote Bush" and NRA decals. I don't like that, and I think a lot of America is like that. But they are people. They obviously aren't going to follow something they think is wrong. So they must be following something they think is right. They must think what i am doing is as wrong as what i think they are doing is. Get that? We can't reconcile our opinions, so how can we shout across a room in the house or senate about this or that policy when in our own minds we are right? It seems like things are becoming all one flavor anyway. Everyone drifting towards the middle, wanting to get elected instead of wanting political innovation or real change.Sorry if I sound like I think I am ultimately right. I'm sure I'm not. But we can all seek out the ultimate right, something, which is unatainable; at least I think it is, together. I feel no ill towards you Arc, but I do disagree, I want to hug you. Sorry the people at your work aren't very nice, maybe we can try to open their eyes a little, person by person. And they can open our eyes person by person. This is when an administrator gets on my back about doing a long post about nothing to do with Poi. Oh yeah, anyone know anything about doing double BTB wrist wraps after an iteration of a 5 beat BTB weave? Hope i didn't offend, I just opened a vein and started writing, I get a little emotional sometimes, whatever. Heres an ehug if anyone is feeling upset about life, or my post. I hate to sound lame like that, I just wanted to stress I honestly am just searching for some answer, so if you have some, send them to me, please. PLUR -John(Sorry if I don't make much sence, School has been tough lately, I.B. classes and week before opening night for Company of Wayward Saints, so I haven't been eating or sleeping much)Anyone have thoughts on using poi with talis? I don't like them because they are loud and cause a lot of drag, too slow. What do you guys think?--------------------------Search for meaning,not guided by thought.Help me find it,I am lost.[This message has been edited by tallicaburton (edited 14 January 2002).]

Delete

Arc
member
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Member Since: 13th Jan 2002
Total posts: 17
Posted:Hi all.First of all, Durbs you're right. What does this have to do with poi. I do appologize because this was supposed to be a reply and not a new thread. So I humbly ask forgiveness. On the other hand I think poi and all of the arts are getting the shaft in the new millenium. Share the love. I think poi is another vehicle to do that. Most of all it makes me feel good and that is awesome in itself.Wren - "As my sociology teacher told me, one of the 10 key values of the United States is group superiority." Holy crap that's just sick. Wow.With all due respect to all the other replies to which I didn't comment on I have to say the one that touched me the most was tallicaburton's.Please forgive me if I have hurt your feelings, it was not meant to do so. Not unlike religion this is a very touchy subject and can inflame the mildest of us all. I tried to express my experience without condemning all Americans. Like I said "It will take generations to eliminate racism". It would appear from your reply that this is happening. You live in a world now where inter-racial dating, hanging out and marriage is common place. Just a generation ago this was still an intollerable idea. I remember when the show "The Jeffersons" debuted and believe it or not this was the first or one of the first introductions of a mixed marriage between black and white on TV. You've come a long way. This is going to hurt a little but when I first moved to LA. I got the lecture, from no less than 5 or 6 people in the firm that under no circumstances do I ever go to neighborhood x,y and z. Never get off the freeway here or there. Well I am happy to say that I got off the freeway here and there and went to x,y and z and all I found were really nice people. Only once did I have an incident and that was when a young black man rolled down his window, made a gun figure out of his hands and proceeded to blow me away verbally. I am not kidding. That was a bit freaky.Tallicaburton, I hope you do believe me when I say I have no ill feelings about Americans as a whole. I do realize that it's the individuals demons which they struggle with. We all do. I accept your hug and hug you in return.In conclusion I will say that I don't recant anything I expressed in my first email. I do want to make it clear that I really like Americans. They have done many wonderous things and achieved unbelievable dreams. However,I do still have resentment towards the US's foreign policy. When you're king of the economic and military hill what can other countries do when told to jump but say "how high".--------------------------------Life is a varied as all the colors of the spectrum. Avoid the rose colored lens.

Delete

Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:i haven't meet to many americans, not to many come out to new zealand, those that do are generally in my expierence nature/open space loving freaks (not in any bad way) or students with family out here.apart from some who have been younger given enough time you begin to notice a sutble arogence in almost all of them. this is neither good nor bad just some thing a kiwi detects when in my case he meets an american, so my judgement call is in comparison to kiwis in new zealand. i might get a different feeling from u.s people when i get to your fine land. i think most people out side of the u.s. detect (in my experince from talking to tourist who visit new zealand, isralies follwed by americans seem to rub people up the wrong way the most) it and that is why there is a worldwide anti american feeling. in new zealand we have similar race problems, although i have heard from some tourist we have an exillent race record, i guess its all perception. where there is differences of any kind groups seem to be formed on those lines. maybe your difference is skin colour, maybe its to get along with everybody or simiply doing something you enjoy. what ever it is usually people protect this difference as it gives the person and the group, identity.a group is so to speak a living thing, it will fight to stay alive. i guess the most problematic groups are those that attack other groups, this begin the reason for their existence. there are no groups that i can think of exist solely for this reason. there are how ever many groups who compete/fight/ignore each other. every thing starts with the individual, for each of us it how we deal with those peopele we find yourselfs in relationship where this competing/fighting/ignoring dynamic exists. love is the answer, although i didn't and still find it difficult to accept, there doesn't seem to be any other answer, the next question, what is love. thats a the big one.As in regards the world trade center attacks, all the younger people (30 and under) in new and australia i have spoken to have expressed the veiw of 'what were you guys expecting, when so many countries suffer from your govt, corprate world and the i.m.f.' with most feeling the govt. was the most to blame.

Delete

Flambabe
member
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2002
Total posts: 16
Posted:I think we all get the point. IMHO, The best way to try to end racism is by example. I am American, my closest friends are Korean, black, Jewish, Muslim and Seikh (to name a few) and I have Canadian, Moroccan and European relatives whom I love dearly. I've learned that without all these little differences, Life would be unbearably boring. No country is perfect.

Delete

Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:I tend to agreed with Pele in that we are just pack animals fighting for survival - racism, sexism, classism, disabilityism??!! etc... - will it ever end.However, I do believe that we do have conscience and therefore we all have the ability to change the way we are. I am a great optimist. Most human beings just want to be loved and to love, maybe this is part of our problem but this is also out biggest chance. Finally, can someone clarify for me - is this site designed for people with a common interest (ie poi, taff, fire etc) who want to have a 'social discussion' or is it to talk about poi related subjects?IMHO - we can but plant seeds.

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I'm not gonna do a long post, as much as I'd like to. Gotta have self control sometime! And I think almost everything has been said.The US is still in a lot of ways an immature country (this weekend I was drinking in a pub older than the USA!). It's also very big so can easily be preoccupied with it's own affairs and never realise the rest of the world exists, or that it isn't a carbon copy of the US.I work with and know a lot of lovely North Americans. I've always noticed that the Canadians always have a maple leaf sign nearby when abroad to identify the fact that they're Canadians, not Americans!

Delete

Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:This is more addressing the question of appropriateness to the board.....This topic is 'Social Discussion'.This is an extremely social discussion and it being handled by everyone extremely intelligently and well.While we all love our arts, we also all have other interests and thoughts, this would be the place to discuss those that are publically appropriate in a friendly manner.It's why this thread didn't get shut down, and why it is fine on the board.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I agree with most of the points above. With one exception. Yes, America has the worst race problems of any other country. Until you compare it with many other countries.America is perhaps the most culturally diverse country in the planet (agreed, I'm biased living in NYC... is it safe to say the most culturually diverse city in the planet?) I'm not bragging. With this diversity comes intolerance, violence, and hatred.I think of America as being in a violent racial intolerant adolescence. I see many other coutries as being in their infancy.I know that there are other countries that have delt with floods of immigration but America is made purely of immigrants. (Apologies to the Native Americans)I wonder how other countries would deal with such influxes of sizable immigrant and minority populations. Perhaps better than the US, but doubtful.I also understand that the US will be under the global microscope. We are big brother and should be resented for our international policies. I know I come off as "pro-US" which is a strange angle for me. I'm quite critical of my countries evils BUT I do think that blanket negative statements against any culture are not effective ways of initiating change.I am an active and vocal proponent for racial tolerance. As a teacher, I often take time out of my chemistry class to address intolerance, racism, and hate. I have volenteered with minority groups (of which I am not a part of) and for causes that develop and teach tolerance. I have worked extensively with minority students in oppressed situations.Many of you have done the same I'm sure. But I'm sure there are a few who do not put their money/time/effort where their mouth is.It's easy to blame as an excuse not to act. "Think globally, act locally" is not just a bumpersticker. I say the following not as an attack, but as an open question that only you can answer honestly:What have you done lately?

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

majikbrat
member
Location: Derby, VT,USA
Member Since: 10th Jan 2002
Total posts: 12
Posted:(Off Topic for about 2 lines). I was just talking to some friends at our bon-fire Saturday night about what a great board this was. And about how everyone seemed to be basically respectful, helpful, thinking people. THANK YOU for proving me right. Especially after I handed out the address like it was candy. (No my friends are not fire people, nor do most of them have any interest in it for themselves, but all of them are interested for me and wanted to see/learn more about it so they could better support me.) Ok so it was a tad more than 2 lines.Americans are lots of things. Unfortunately, one of those things can be rasist. It can also be ignorant, arrogant, condecending, intolorent, uninformed, and stubborn as hell. As a member of several minority groups I have seen all those things first hand here.BUT, we can also be caring, giving, fun, concerned, etc etc. I know people here in my area who spent countless hours and even days canvasing neighborhoods, making phone calls, going to, and testifying before, state legislative hearings, writing letters to the media and to congress, and countless other things, on an issue we called civil unions (email me if you want to know what this was). By particiapating publicly in this debate they put themselves and their families at risk. Phyisically, finacially, emotionally. But they did it. And most of them had nothing "personal" to gain out of the outcome. They weren't "directly" effected by the outcome. I know people, lots of people, who went to Qubec City to protest the World Trade Organization talks last summer. Taking time off from jobs, risking arrest and bodily harm to go. Some of them actually lost their jobs over the time off. (I didnt go as an owner/operator (at the time) of a local restaraunt, and due to my proximity to a border crossing where major delays were) I felt I could better serve by providing complimentary food, houseing, directions etc.)When I personally ran into a conflict with the government recently, that screamed predjudice, and ended up in a year long battle. Everyone I knew, right wing, left wing, in between supported me. With emails, phone calls, grocery shopping, babysitting. You name it.My point, Americans are lots of things, some of them bad. Our government is far from perfect. I for one disagree with the war. I think the violence should have stopped here. (Just my opionion anyone can feel free to email me about that opinion). But I DO NOT think that most of us are rasist.IMHO.Blessed BeDa BratPS. NYC. One of those minority groups I mentioned is Native American. But I am not offended. Archeologists have bacially proved that even we are immigrants.------------------Around the pyre, a circle of thirteenThroughout these woods, ecstatic screamsI look deeply into your eyesI smell your hair, caress your thighsNow we'll make love by fire lightA blaze so high it lights the night"Type O Negative"

Around the pyre, a circle of thirteenThroughout these woods, ecstatic screamsI look deeply into your eyesI smell your hair, caress your thighsNow we'll make love by fire lightA blaze so high it lights the nightType O Negative

Delete

SorchaTheFlaming
member
Location: Calgary alberta Canada
Member Since: 26th Jun 2001
Total posts: 235
Posted:Being Canadian and residing in Canada,IMHO I feel that canada does alot for the U.Sthat no one recongnizes (big generalization guys sorry) When the United States bombed this country or that country where do the civilians go? They come to Canada. Canada does in fact have a decent army we have had no need to use it on a large scale. and many many many u.s soldiers are trained in canada.and Speaking for myself Canada has done a hell of alot more than "just send booties for the dogs" there was so much money raised. and those dogs the boots were for may have found someones body or better yet a living person. that counts. to relate this to poi, i raised over 50 dollers for the red cross spinnin poi at CANADIAN PEACE RALLYS!! it wasnt even our war!! *snifff* i love my country very much.. and on a much lighter side canadians beer is better thatn american beer.. and id like to say were much more easy going..most of the peopl i know think its funny the states make fun of us... hell we make fun of us..So i say give the doggies boots eh?

Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.

Delete

Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:it is interesting the feelings that develop between two neighbouring counrties. canadians who travel to new zealand and else so other travellers say are very proud of their nation. often they have the maple flag on their backpacks so as not to be confused with americans.new zealand has possibly a similar relationship with australia where we 'hate'each other, i think this is a surface level reaction to each other, really we love our aussie mates we are just better than them at almost everything we do. of course i say this with a smile, remmeber the basket ball, the americas cup (sailing) and the many other events we seem to beat you at.and at the moment you guys(aussies) are giving us a hard time about our contribution to armed services similar to a posting before where americans were giving the poor canadain lad shit about their contribution for the war effort.what does that say about the relationship between big guys and little guys. as the little guy you have to laugh at the big dopey fello, its that or cry.

Delete

Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:just wanted to say something : as a human being, I am much more sceptical of someone who'd swear to god he is ABSOLUTELY NOT RACIST than someone acknowledging he has to work and learn more and has his own fears and all. So often have I heard this :"I am NOT racist , I even have black / yellow / green with orange strips coloured friends BUT ... bla bla bla" or something like that ... Yikes...You'll probably flame me but I must say one thing in all honesty : I did a master in anthropology out of love for other cultures, I have friends all over the planet (my list of friends sounds likesome UNO mailing list
Non-Https Image Link
) and yet I feel it is an every day work to fight my own prejudices against whatever comes and is unknown / scary / violent to me... An ongoing process of never taking things for granted including the fact that most of teh time I honestly think I am not a racist ...I liked your point, NYC : what have I done lately ? hmmm.... and also, always question myself often to make sure I don't just create a meaningless Politically correct speech that is not completely connected with my acts ...do I make sense ?Pardon me if I am off topic...shine onCassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Delete

McFly
member
Location: Melbourne, Vic, Australia
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 7
Posted:I don't mind the discussion but the threads are so LONG I can't read them all... not at this hour anyway.But I get the gist of it.

I like the pretty lights...

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am truly sorry that you view America in this way. Some things that you all have said strick me deaper than any other. As all of you know by now I sick up for my country and I do not tolerate anybody bashing it. With that in mind I do not go around a talk trash about other countries. Arc I have a few questions for you.How old are you?Have you ever served your country (military or government)?Why do you wish to live in the USA?Do you enjoy your life in the USA?Are you an avid drug user?Why (as a Canadian) do you even care what America does?But he is right we as Americans tend to turn a blind eye untill something affects us. Now in our deffence if we were to stick our nose in everybodys business we would piss a lot of people off, but if we dont we piss a lot of people off. So why do you as forigners bitch and moan about what American society is like in our own country? You who can not change anything do not have the right to say anyting. Those who will have the power to change America (i.e. those under 18) in the futre have the right to complain through others. To make their views known. It should not be on you to try to tackle your views on your own.Now I am taking the advise from someone on a different thread and approaching this in a calm manner. Now if you think that patriatisim is slapping a red white and blue bumpersticker on your car you are dead wrong. To be a patriot is to be willing to rist everything you have for your country or cause. My point in all this is being do not bitch if you are not prepared to change it. Arc become a citizen I welcome you with open arms and extend full rights for you to change America. Untill then shut up. Yes we have our problems but they are ours not Canadas. Your country did a good thing they saw a need a took care of it. I applaud that, that showed great form on your countries part. To say that all Americans are how your co-workers are is a load of bull and nothing more. I am stationd in San Diego (Miramar) when I get back off deployment I would like to meet you Arc and to show you hey not all Americans are like your co-workers. I guess I along with Tallicaburtonmissed the memo that we were supposed to hate those not like us. Our bad.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Nicely said Phule, and I am not known for being patriotic, I will admit.And there was a memo? Damn! I was left out again!
Non-Https Image Link
------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:Phule, please do NOt take that personnaly and bad but ... quote :"So why do you as forigners bitch and moan about what American society is like in our own country? You who can not change anything do not have the right to say anyting".I admit it is always a bit annoying when someone "from the outside" critisizes your "inside", even if you can be very cynical and critical yourself, not just a blind sheep. I can critisize myself, my friends and family, my country and suddenly I feel it affects me when someone else does... why ?sometimes because he/she who speaks does not know what he/she is talking aout (well... ignore him/her then !!!) BUT sometimes also because what is said touches a weaker point and instead of giving it a thought or even saying : "what do you mean, I want to learn to see through your point of view you just kick them out saying they have no right to speak"I really don't mean to say A is right and B is not ... just pointing out that everyone has the right to talk and disagree too. And sometimes what makes me react most and makes me angry about is not cause it is stupid... but because it is spot on.I personnaly was raised in france where i beleive some primary, stupid anti-american culture is seen as "fashionable"... you know ? Luckily I have american friends and the man I love is also american so I get to broaden my horizons and start listening to different voices, tunes and points of view...I suggest we all do the same... I am not a lesson giver, was actually recently given quite a few lessons by otehrs and therefore try to share that with you. I who claimed NOT to bea patriot and NOT to be a racist can sometimes say intolerant thigns and act like a patriot.Just my two cents. Shine onCassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Delete

Arc
member
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Member Since: 13th Jan 2002
Total posts: 17
Posted:Ok, this will be my last reply to the post. 2020 tells me I should never have posted it in the first place.Again I will state for the record. I do not hate or dislike Americans. America has every right to go after OBL. He killed 5000 people, the SOB. 4 years ago I signed Amnesty International petitions to urge the world to do something about the human rights violations taking place in Afghanistan. This posting was supposed to be a reply to a previous thread about the American involvement in Afghanistan and not a new thread. Again I appologize.I am sorry I even posted the damn thread at all. However now I am hurt and confused.It is perfectly clear to me now that since I am only a visitor here in the USA I should keep my mouth shut, my eyes closed, and my ears covered. What the hell was I thinking. Freedom of speech is only extended to the citizens of the USA and those who serve the government or military. What an a-hole I am for trying to take advantage of that. I don't think clearly because I am so pumped up on drugs all the time. Raymond I hope we do meet and I hope you bring your buddies along to beat the crap out of me. I deserve no better than to be packed up and shipped out. Raymond I made it perfectly clear in my messages that I don't hate or dislike Americans. I also made it clear that the MAJORITY of americans are kind, wonderful, loving people. If you know that there are problems and I know there are problems then what does it matter if I say there are still problems. This is not a condemnation of your country or it's people. You are making it a horrible thing by getting all angry about it.The majority of the world really, really, really like Americans. All my life I've been totally proud and in awe of the fact that your country has whats called a Bill of Rights. It breaks my heart when I see civil liberties stripped away and yes, I am not even a citizen here. What happens here has a direct impact on what happens in the rest of the world. When civil liberties are stripped here they are stripped elsewhere too. It hurts us when we(other countried) are pressured into changing our policies because your policies change. It would be one thing if the policies the US made stayed here but they don't. Your wars become our wars and that hurts us. We don't like being hostages either. Your nuclear standoffs, cold wars, drug wars are our nuclear standoffs, cold wars and drug wars. Absolutely everything the US does has a direct effect on the rest of the world. Not all the countries all the time. Some here some there. Speaking for Canada only. We have always supported the US. We have been loyal friends, allies and neighbors. We've spilled blood side by side on the same ground. If my country asked me to fight, I would fight in an instant and I would be proud to fight along side the USA.I admire your people and what they have achieved. I thank god for the fact that there is a country that protects its people so that they can speak thier minds, even if it's not popular opinion, and not be punished for it. Freedom of speech is what makes the USA the wonderment of the world. Be proud of the fact that people post messages here, good or bad. Love the love people are showing. People say these things because they care and are hurt when Americans get themselves into trouble around the world. Let other peoples love you and love them in return. This is the last I will speak of this.

Delete

tallicaburton
member
Location: Troy, NY for school (Austin, T...
Member Since: 23rd Nov 2001
Total posts: 51
Posted:Boy some of my fellow Americans sounded very defensive. I have having fingers always pointed at America though, so i have to agree with them. This isn't another post just blindly defending the U.S. Look at Britain. I have some friends who visited Britain, and they said they had the distinct impression that some English people thought the Welsh were "lower" in several respects. I don't know if that's true, its just what I heard. And in Ireland, that is some pretty extreme racism. And in Israel, that is some fanatical hatred. And what about Osama Bin Laden? So America is a wealthy nation. Does that make us a better target? I suppose it is easier to give the poor workingman a heart of gold than it is to give it to the million-dollar tycoon. Lots of nations are wealthy; the US is one of them. But is the racism that exists in the U.S. more important to eliminate simply because the racism of Osama Bin Laden is based in their religion and not as contrived as the racism existing in the U.S.? I'm twisting arguments around in a new context to use my Osama Bin Laden example, but I believe my argument is still valid.Someone mentioned that EVERYONE is racist. Well, of course. When I say that I am not racist, I mean I am aware of my actions, and try to act and treat all people equally. I live in Texas, and I hear so many Mexican jokes it makes me want to cry. Those things are racist. However, when I say Im not racist, I mean I'm not going out lynching people, or not acknowledging a certain race, or discriminating against another race. I am certainly not perfect, and I still harbor prejudices against certain racists and try to recognize these prejudices and blow them out of the water. I think it is important to recognize that perhaps being racist is not harboring certain (negative) feelings towards a race, but being unwilling to acknowledge and improve your understanding and treatment of another race once its pointed out to you. We all make mistakes, buy youre only wrong if you refuse to correct them.No country is perfect. France has racism. Spain has racism. England has racism and even, god forbid, Oz and New Zealand. (Im just teasing, but perhaps some nations mentioned stereotype America as racists, and put themselves on a moral platform? Probably not, but maybe something to think about? I will admit I support this, and I profile all Oz and New Zealanders as laid back fun loving young beautiful tan people, except for that crocodile Dundee. Soooorrrrrryyyy) No body is perfect. Please don't try to perfect the U.S. I apologize now, because I'm assuming too much, most people on this board know this fact, and perhaps would become offended if I suggested they were trying to say the U.S. is an evil pit of stewing racism, hatred, and arrogance. Cause it aint. Additionally, I think U.S. arrogance, for I hear it exists from some of my French/Spanish friends, is part cultural. When I walk around outside *everybody* looks arrogant, like they are the only ones in the world, and that you are less intelligent, smart, and attractive. So if you see an American acting superior, don't worry, *many people* get treated like that. I apologize to my American friends in advance, not everyone is like that. Lets spread the love. Hope I didn't offend too much, that wasnt my intent. Love John.--------------------------Search for meaning,not guided by thought.Help me find it,I am lost.

Delete

tallicaburton
member
Location: Troy, NY for school (Austin, T...
Member Since: 23rd Nov 2001
Total posts: 51
Posted:WHOA! Arc, I just finished reading your message. That is so unfair of people. DON'T make attacks on Canadians, or anyone for that matter! WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE!?!?! I'm sorry some jerks made you feel bad Arc. I'm sorry for calling you guys jerks, but please try to be more careful not to offend. Arc, I will never claim that I will welcome you with open arms once you become a citizen. I welcome you now. You are human, so you are my brother. I'm sorry somebody hurt your feelings. As an American, I can never fully understand why the way I act isn't always "good". By definition it is impossible to know what a "great" person you are as an American UNLESS you can compare with another nation. I can't judge my own poetry because there exists a personal attachment. In much the same way I need the input of brave people like Arc who can tell me when I error. I'm sure Arc trusts me to tell him when he errors as well. Neither of us is perfect, but together we can search for a mean ethical standard that can ultimately be adopted worldwide. Language barriers, political barriers, race barriers, whatever that barrier is, it won't be able to stop the love for fellow man. Lets just find the love and start giving it out faster then Brittany Spears posters go out at an N'SYNC concert. PLUR. Sorry if I came off mean, I dont want to hurt your feelings, it is very possible that I misunderstood. I'm sure it was an accident and misunderstanding. I think America still has a long way to go, but I am hopefull and happy because I think we are making advances. Love you all. Help me figure out where I error as a human being, and then we can search together for our human meaning.------------------Search for meaning,not guided by thought.Help me find it,I am lost.[This message has been edited by tallicaburton (edited 16 January 2002).]

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Arc if you would please read my words one more time and put up with my petty bull shit for a few more minutes I think you will like what you read.I read your post and saw it as an attack, not only and attack on the sovernty of my nation but also an attack on me. Did I over react? Personally I do not feel that I did but as seeing the populer decion here it appears that I did. I have a strong and undying will to defend my country in fact I swore to do so against all enimys both forgin and domestic. Would I ever haul you out to the street and beat you into a bloody pulp for the siple sake that you are from Canada? Hell no I wouldn't. That invitation was a ligitimate hey lets get to know one another invitation. The only way I would ever strike you is if you stuck me first.
Non-Https Image Link
Personaly I did not see where you said that you that the majority of Americans were good people I am sorry that I over looked that part. I shall go look again. I am sorry for trouncing you and your country and all forigners. Your sarcasim was not needed. I am not being sarcastic when I say this Welcome to my country, may it be your home and may you live as happily and freely as you possibly can.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

SmokyDavy
Do my poi look too small in this?
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 17th Jan 2002
Total posts: 394
Posted:Not wanting to get too engrossed in this heated discussion. I'd like to make a small point, I can't say if America has racism or not, thats totally irrelevant. Every country in the ENTIRE WORLD is more racist than CANADA. I know this from experience! I haven't been to a country or talked to a someone from a country other than Canada where people aren't willing to blame the predominant colour for the crime in certain areas.Here in London, I have been mugged once, in a black neighbourhood by 2 black men, my ex-gf has almost been attacked and raped, in a black neighbourhood by a black man. I know 2 other people that have been attacked in black neighbourhoods by black people.Whether you want to tell me its not PC to place blame, If there's 2 big black guys walking behind me on a dark street, and they're gaining, I'm running.If I was to say that one country is too racist, it would NOT be either of those two countries. The word n*gger literally evokes an emotional response to almost every white person in north america, and most people can't even bring themselves to say it. Yet I've heard south africans, aussies, brits and germans use the word without stall. (thats not to say that all of them are racist BTW, just more than north americans I've met, which is something close to zero.)
Non-Https Image Link


Delete

SmokyDavy
Do my poi look too small in this?
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 17th Jan 2002
Total posts: 394
Posted:Raymond, how old are you? Do you really think serving your country actually IMPROVES your knowledge of the world, or are you able to recognize brainwashing techniques that are used in your country on even the kindergarten level?

Delete

Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:Does anyone reading this get the irony? Im laughing my head off here.This is a thread about racism - who is and who isnt blah blah blah; and there is racism going on in the thread!! Racism isnt just about colour, even the Canadians and the Americans are fighting!! IMHO experience and stereotyping contribute to our ideas about others but really we are all the same, and whether you are a racist or not, most people judge the individual when they meet. Ive argued with a racist who has got a black friend who's "the exception". With regards to your being mugged in a black area by 2 black guys - well they wouldnt be white would they, in a black area? This is how racism starts, Ive been attacked by a white guy - but hey, now I hate men???? nahIs USA the most racist country? or do they just have more people so the problem is escalated. SOME Ozzies hate agorigini's and asians - and theres that NZ/Oz thing going on. England has recently had race riots. Its all over the world. One love, One people. Unite on a path to peace.

Delete

SmokyDavy
Do my poi look too small in this?
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 17th Jan 2002
Total posts: 394
Posted:for some reason I tried to reply and I posted a new topic..anyways. yah.. nationalism bad.. swinging stuff around on a string good.IMO

Delete

majikbrat
member
Location: Derby, VT,USA
Member Since: 10th Jan 2002
Total posts: 12
Posted:Arc, I for one am glad you posted
Non-Https Image Link
Made me think.------------------Around the pyre, a circle of thirteenThroughout these woods, ecstatic screamsI look deeply into your eyesI smell your hair, caress your thighsNow we'll make love by fire lightA blaze so high it lights the night"Type O Negative"


Around the pyre, a circle of thirteenThroughout these woods, ecstatic screamsI look deeply into your eyesI smell your hair, caress your thighsNow we'll make love by fire lightA blaze so high it lights the nightType O Negative

Delete

Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Here you go,cut and pasted for your reading enjoyment!SmokyBowlMember Posts: 4From: London, UKRegistered: Jan 2002 posted 17 January 2002 04:52 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Racism isnt just about colour, even the Canadians and the Americans are fighting!!"Actually, thats called nationalism. But I totally agree with the point behind your statement Thats why I don't have a canadian flag on my bag.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Page: 12