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pavement


member
Location: york, uk

Total posts: 121
Posted:So George Bush and his entourage are coming to London. Is anybody else feeling uncomfortable about having this murderous simpleton in Britain, not to mention his gang of gun-toting security guards? Could the timing be any worse for a state visit, given the current public feeling on the situation in Iraq?

It does give us an opportuniy to show The world what we think of Bush and his policies, and it looks like there are going to be massive protests here..


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
I suspect that one reason Bush isn't intervening in China is that it's impractical to do so; whilst there is no denying that the Chinese rulers are also twisted bullies, going to war with China would probably be the end of the world.



By the way, you don't have to explain this to me wink I was highlighting the fact that Bush and Blair are leading this war...apart from where it is 'impractical to do so'. And you'll notice I said 'intervene', not 'go to war'. I think many are experiencing difficulty in separating the two frown

The Iraqis are better off (apart from the thousands of Iraqis who have been killed, of course). But they could have been much better off if we had considered options other than of declaring war frown

What I found very interesting yesterday (even though I don't want Bush here) is that when asked for their opinion on the protestors, even Bush replied that people were entitled to freedom of speech. But Blair said they can't be in their right minds. Why did he bother insulting the protestors? Surely if he felt what he was doing was right, he wouldn't need to?

Very telling ubblol


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:i think everyone agrees that saddam should have been over thrown, but what people object to is the way in which it was done. it was a sham and still is! saddam is not a stupid man and has toyed with the west for many many years. and i personally think there would have been a war regardless, but bush went in all guns blazing with seeming disgard for other peoples/countries queries and worries. that enraged people. we were already in a very unstable situation, andas has been said before it just added fuel to the fire.

i also think people are protesting to show that even though britain is linked to the US government in this, a good portion of the british population doesn't support or trust him at all. almost in a way to try and protect ourselves.

what i dont understand is why saddam seemed to give in so easily!? that just seems very very odd to me. it has raised my suspisions so much, so much so that i have this nagging feeling that something big is about to happen. for example all these masive power cuts...weather i think not! for it to happen in canada, New York City! London! italy! with such a short period of time inbetween each, its all just a bit more than a coincidece (sp) i personnaly think that they were seeing how much chaos they could cause.
maybe im just being paranoid but i think they are things we cannot brush aside or ignore.


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:dave having fully agreed with your last post which was well thought out and constructive i am going to disagree on this one:

"I find it a little strange that millions of people are taking to the streets to protest about American involvement, but most of them did nothing when that regime was routinely torturing and killing its population"

unfortunately due to the present(and pretty much ALL of the past) if everyone who felt strongly about injustice were to march on each issue that bothered them, in this instance a violent dictator, then we would be on the streets every day. impractical i think you'll agree in our capitalist structure which requires people to work in an attempt to live.
this particular case however was more "why does it have to be war? why can't we work it out some other way?" (see i think doms post above about iran)
nobody liked the regime. but very few people think Dubya is/was just doing this for the good of the iraqi people. or we would be at war with everyone. impractical i think you'll agree in our capitalist structure which requires people to be gently or massively corrupt in an attempt to live.


"Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.
........
Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting"

please do not make me lower my high opinion of you by presuming all protesters have the same views and same opinions.... i hope you are just talking about some of the more militant aspects of the protests, and the bigoted views that will help nobody(i think you or someone else mentioned this earlier pointing out the 'we live in a fascist police state' view of some of our less enlightened brethren, a view that shows they have no concept of living in one of these. A suspiscious, right wing state perhaps, but not one where people are killed without knowing the reason why by government agents, a good thing i think you'll agree\)
just to jump back to the start of this paragraph; if you were presnet at the march in london in febraury i am you would have been amazed as i was at the sheer diversity of people marching to stop the war. i feel never before have so many obviously different groups with different viewpoints united on one issue, that for whatever reason war is/was not the best way to remove a threat to the iraqi people. NOT a threat to the world.

anyway.

if i were in the uk i would have been at the protest, shouting my views to mr bush, mainly because i object to the way we were forced into a war he, his backers and TB wanted. actually i am no longer sure TB wanted this war, just that he could not see a challenger for bush in the next election and he wanted to be on the right side of the US government for as long as possible... and that for me would be the worst reason in history to go to war.

Rob



Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Dom, are you a fan of soccer/football? Did you ever wish to play, perhaps prefesionally, I mean when you were a child? In Iraq, before the first Gulf War, and after, Sadam's Soccer teams were exicuted if they lost! That is just one aspect of how life was under the rule of Sadam.

In all honesty, it isnt too terribly hard to find a better literacy rate than the US, the gerneral consensis of the youth in the US is that they dont care about education. Pop culture has successfully bread a generation of mindless drones, filled with "Slim Shadies" and "Britney Spears".

You compare Bush and Sadam and hold them as equal tyrants, this I can not agree with. What has Bush done that is illeagle? If you try to use this war as an example, I ask that you think again.

At the end of the first Gulf War, sanctions were placed on Iraq, by the UN, after Iraq illeagly invaded a neighboring country. Yes, that was was most definatly about oil. Those sactions were violated numerus times, the UN did not follow through with the punishment of said violations. Now, because the US is part of the UN, they do have the right to act upon those violations. It isnt as easy as that, they do need UN approval, but it did and does not need to be unanimous. This was is leagle and justified under UN law passed in the early '90's.

The Brittish role of pacifisim in NI has not worked either, you just said yourself that the bombings have increased. So, if pacifisim and war do not work, what will?


Narr, the Iraqi army uses out dated Soviet technology, they also use old Soviet tactics. The US and its allies have done nothing but learn these tactics and learn how to obliterate them. Remember the Cold War? Sadam did not give in, he didnt have a chance.


Bush, has put a spin on things since day one. He has tried to make things appear to be something that it is not, the Axis of Evil thing is by far the greatest and most laughable of all his little ploys. While yes the countries listed are on the bottom rung of the human rights ladder, to come out with a list is to do nothing but promte deffensive behavior from those countries. A very stupid move on Bush's part.

The Arab countries, have already opend to the West, McDonalds and 7/11 are already and have been in those countries for years now. Jordon is still the best basketball player to them, and the Pepsi/Coke wars are ever present!

Spanner, if I amased a million people to show up at your house and protest you, how would you react? Would you think us crazy? Or would you just smile and say that we have the right to think and say what we want?

Personaly I would think that they were crazy, but I would also admit that they have the right to their opinions.

Bluecat, Dave is on to something. Yes in our society we need people to work, and yes some people do protest every day, take for example Green Peace, I am sure that somewhere in the vastness of that organisation there is someone protesting somthing every day.

Why is there millions protesting Bush and Blair and not Sadam and Osama?

The reason for this probably falls along the lines of, Sadam and Osama dont listen to the people of the world and their reign is not dependent on public opinion. In short, even if you cried out every day, they wouldnt listen. Protestors have ahope, that who they are protesting will either listen to them, or they will get to the people that the protested listen to.

I think back on the people who wanted to go be human shields in Iraq, where were they when people were jumping out of the doomed towers? Where was their concern for innocent lives then? I am by no means saying that they didnt care, but just that perhaps their concern is a bit misplaced.



Here is my question to those of you who would liked to have, or did protest Bush, Blair and the war; what if there were a million people marching in support of Bush, Blair and the war? What would you think of those people? What would your reaction be?


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

"Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.
........
Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting"
=========================
please do not make me lower my high opinion of you by presuming all protesters have the same views and same opinions.... i hope you are just talking about some of the more militant aspects of the protests...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The first quote was in connection with some of the protestors I know and my impression that the sound system/party/drugs aspects of the protest scene are of more importance to them than the issues they are protesting about.

As an example, I have a friend who has a specific skill that is valuable on protests and much of her life revolves around going to various protests around the country.
Recently, as she was about to embark on a protest at a militery base I asked her what specific aspects of the base she was protesting about, and she admitted that she had no idea whatsoever.

I can't, and didn't intend, to generalise from the few protestors I know personally to the whole, but other things, such as some of the bad arguments put forward by them, make it plausable to me that there are grounds for suspicion.

The second quote was part of a direct response to an earlier poster who claimed that gut feelings were of more use than rational reasoning when it came to these issues.
My opinion is that that is untrue and I was challenging it by pointing out that those who opposed the protestors position themselves had opposite gut feelings, and that my gut feelings didn't tally with that posters either.




"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I think pro-war people have a hard time looking at the big picture and a bit of misplaced confidence in bush.

Yeah saddam is a bad guy, granted. What is the US doing to ensure that another bad guy doesn't come back? Or one of saddams puppets? I see nothing, do you see anything? It seems like they are just occupying the country, they can't do that forever (if they do, I gurantee you will begin to see suicide bombings on wallstreet)

Where pro-war protestors see only protecting the interests of the US and iraq, I think anti-war protestors (those who are intelligent) see iminent jeopardy for the interests of the entire middle east and ultimatly the world.

Do you know why the iraqi people haven't overthrown saddam himself? Because they are all starving to death from un sanctions. IMO the un sanctions have hurt more iraqi people then saddam ever has (as twisted as the guy is, most people under his rule aren't executed or totured, or even know anyone who was. But they all certainly know people who are starving, people who have brittle bones from malnutrition, they know people who have been effected by street thug criminals.

How do you expect a bunch of starving people to overthrow saddam? Or do anything but survive from day to day? We know one thing about how revolutions work, they very rarely happen when a country is at it's lowest point but when people have enough food stored away and enough security so they can go out and fight a revolution (like they are doing now that they have lots of foreign aid, It just so happens theres no saddam around to fight so they are fight the most obvious agressors who most recently blew up their family and interupted their daily lives)

I think the question is why hasn't people been protesting sanctions?

Because there is no media circus about sanctions, theres no headline news about starving iraqis. Theres certainly enough news about the war in iraq and thus naturally theres going to be more people protesting it. Maybe if bush didn't go about promoteing the war like he was promoteing a used sales lot, we might see a higher calibre of protestors, but he came off as so crass, arrogant and generally stupid that he raises nearly everyones defenses.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ta dave. needed to know that.



i read the post on gut feelings, it was just the generalisation on protesters rather than in my opinion 'some' protesters.



i truly feel that protesting for the sake of it is wrong. and also that most people on most protests have a good reason and a true interest in seeing a proper resolution of the problem rather thatn 'you are wrong. we are right' opinion that many full time protesters seem to have.





Laytin my point about protesting every day was made in direct response to the statement "I find it a little strange that millions of people are taking to the streets to protest about American involvement, but most of them did nothing when that regime was routinely torturing and killing its population"



obviously there are a few. i was referring to the masses.





going to withdraw from this arguement. now. as otherwise i'll end up spending many $ on someone elses phone line over the next few days but will continue to read.





ta for your ears(and eyes!).



R wave

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1069483941)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:a nine year old girl's view on things...."i fought for my people to be free,why can't wars be done verbally?"she goes on to talk about soldiers in heaven.......it's pretty simple,innit? smilei know this is not terribly intellectual an' all, but this is where i am in my life right now,i spend a lot of time with kids,and as they are the future,maybe we should listen to them.
People will say you can't talk to people like saddam and osama,but bombing the [censored] out of innocennts isn't the way forward either.Can't we just focus our resources and energy on getting the people who commit the crimes..? (on both sides...)


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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Astar, the reason the people of Iraq didnt overthrow Sadam was not the fault of UN sanctions, it was because when ever someone spoke out against Sadam, they were killed. Publicly! An example was made out of them and their families.

Starving people have overthrown governments befor. The Scots did it, the colonists did it, the English over the Romans. Wars of freedom are won by the heart, not the full belly.

What is the US doing to insure that a proper government is placed in Iraq and not a former Sadam loyalist or a tyrant as bad as Sadam? To be perfectly honest, I dont know, but I do know that just because it hasnt been done yet, doesnt mean that it will never be done. There are two sides to the coin of Iraq, what has been done and what has yet to be done. Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will Iraq.

WoodyNymph, a childs logic is often a wonderful thing and if reality fell along those lines the world would be a much better place.

Unlike terrorisim, civilians are not routienly targeted by US and Allie forces. I dont know why you think that. If you have heard tragic and horrific stories and think that is the norm, please try to look at the big picture of what has happend in a war and then you will find that civilian casualties have been kept to a minimum unlike previous wars.

I am not pro-war nor am I anti-war, I feel that one must do what one must do. Sadam needed removed from power, I feel that Bush Blair and the Oz PM did what they needed to do to get rid of him. I also feel that there is more work to be done, the balance in that region has been turned on its head, it will take time to right things and make Iraq a better place to live. I have faith that what was started will be finished. I only ask that the rest of the world has faith as well, it will make things go alot easier. cool peace


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
Spanner, if I amased a million people to show up at your house and protest you, how would you react? Would you think us crazy? Or would you just smile and say that we have the right to think and say what we want?



What would one million people be protesting against me for? Obviously I would think they were crazy: I'm not a murderer. But if I was, I'd have definitely cottoned on by now.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Posted:Wow I don't even know where to begin...*note to self: read this thread more than every couple of days* I may attack the issues out of order but here goes:

Adding fuel to the fire: The fuel was quite amply fed out of the tanks of four planes on September 11, 2001. Had England been attacked as America was thier people would have cried for blood just as ours did. I admit Afghanistan was a crusade. It was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. We laid waste to the Taliban and Al Queda not for any political reason but merely avenging the blood of our brothers. The world may not see it as right but when it was one of your relatives in those towers or in the pentagon you too would have been screaming for justice. Just those who sat on that day and saw the footage of planes flying into towers, people jumping from burning buildings, the towers crumblings, scenes that seemed from a movie not real life, those people should understand why we went after Afghanistan. The terror attacks started with 9/11 not with the war, not with increased American presence in the Middle East, they started the day those planes were hijacked.

Bush and his regime toppling: There is no way in hell America can save the world. We can't plow through Korea, Iran, China, Russia, etc...just to rid the world of evil dictators. We don't have the manpower and we don't have the international support. Why does America have to be the fix it nation? When was the last time France or England or any of the European countrys came to the aid of a country in need? However..we can take care of some of the world's problems a little at a time. Iraq being one of them. Saddam had to go. You call my President a murderer. You say he had no right to try to liberate the people of Iraq. Yet... you say nothing of Saddam. You call him not a murderer you almost seem to martyr him. You tell me that my President has a thirst for oil that only a conquest of Iraq with slake. Yet..you say nothing of Saddam.....You cry out for proof that America is helping to make Iraqi life better. I give you your proof with one word. Bechtel. Do you know who Bechtel is? They are the multi-billion dollar company that is in Iraq as we speak rebuilding schools, making Iraqi energy more efficient, rerouting water systems, fixing things Saddam destroyed. You want progress? You have to give progress time. We can't just march in there and two days later march out with Iraq running perfectly with the perfect leader. It takes time....time the rest of the world isn't willing to give. This is a means to an end and I believe if given time the means will more than justify the end.

America is not the personification of evil. Our government isn't evil, for those of you Americans who forget YOU made the government. Everyone of those people in office YOU PUT THERE. If you don't like them and you think you could do a better job perhaps YOU should run for office. Then you can fix America to your liking. So who of you is running for President? What is your platform? Where do you stand? Hrmm??

hug kiss beerchug


Always Beautiful

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Spanner, it was an attempt to get you and others to look at things through someone elses eyes. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that called apithy? It really wouldnt matter what they were protesting, after all it was hypothetical ubbangel

Zyanya, you are right, things are being done. To be honest, this was the first time I and possibly others have heard of Bechtel. Would you happen to have a link to a site about them?


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Quote:
Our government isn't evil, for those of you Americans who forget YOU made the government. Everyone of those people in office YOU PUT THERE.



I just can't help it..The point I've been trying to make is the FACT that we DIDN'T put him there!! Don't you watch the news, stay informed? More and more evidence has piled up on how defunct the results of the election recount in florida were! Is at coicidence that the state just happened to have a governer in place who was a Bush as well? no.. Was it a coincidence that the same(Jeb) Bush was having an affair with Katherine Harris, in charge of the election recount but that information was quashed from the(govt controlled) media?!? NO..This really pisses me off when ppl try and say I dont have a right to complain because I put him there. As a matter of fact I voted for Gore, which gives me just as much a right to complain, even tho I don't buy the whole 'if you didn't vote you don't have a right to complain' bit anyways(it's an opinion, use it), we see what good voting does now!! No worries tho, I'm still lining up for the polls this november, cause I want his neanderthal hillbilly a@@ out of office and get started fixing all the damage that he has caused in his term. It's funny, with almost all presidents I can think of at least ONE good thing that came from their office(even Clinton!!), but this president will go down in history as the WORST president ever.


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Posted:go to bechtel.com....on the front page it has info....

Always Beautiful

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Mushashii, every hear of public acess? Tell your facts to the world. Why are you waiting for the media to do it? Yes everyone does have the right to dissagree with what the leaders of our country are doing. If you feel things are awery speek out, write editorials, be the change smile

I have read "Stupid White Men" too, but for every bit of evidence Moore can come up with there is going to be someone on the other end with evidence disagreeing with it. I dont know where it is, but I know it is there. Because the universe is a series of opposites, there is truth and there is lie, fabrication and genuine article, good and evil. Each shows the eye what it wants to see. Be careful you are not being led down a certain path just because you have read it in a "New York Times Best Selling Book". beerchug


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
Spanner, it was an attempt to get you and others to look at things through someone elses eyes. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that called apithy? It really wouldnt matter what they were protesting, after all it was hypothetical ubbangel





Could you please indicate more clearly what you are referring to as apathy? Thanks.



Quote:
Had England been attacked as America was thier people would have cried for blood just as ours did... I admit Afghanistan was a crusade. It was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...The world may not see it as right but when it was one of your relatives in those towers or in the pentagon you too would have been screaming for justice.





Obviously England has not had an equivalent of that attack. However, Britain has been the target of terrorism since 1969. But the fear of a bomb or massacre has been eased considerably since diplomatic negotiations have begun. Do two wrongs make a right? People were killed in Afghanistan who had no part in 9/11 anyway. Is that justice?



Quote:
We don't have the manpower and we don't have the international support.





That doesn't seem to particularly concern the current USA administration, otherwise they wouldn't have invaded Iraq.



Quote:
Why does America have to be the fix it nation?... When was the last time France or England or any of the European countrys came to the aid of a country in need?





Why does the USA have to? I was wondering the same myself! Sometimes I think Jimmy Savile could have done a better job fixing it for Iraq. Aid doesn't necessarily mean war.



Quote:
You say he had no right to try to liberate the people of Iraq...Yet... you say nothing of Saddam. You call him not a murderer you almost seem to martyr him.





I don't think so. Bush just 'liberated' in one of the worst possible ways, excepting nuclear war. I don't think anyone here really digs Saddam, do you?



Quote:
You want progress? You have to give progress time... This is a means to an end and I believe if given time the means will more than justify the end.





I'm not sure that it would go down very well with the people who are dying in the meantime, their family or their friends, if you told them the above. I won't be holding my breath until terrorism has been 'defeated', especially not given the recent exacerbation ubbcrying


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Spanner, my attempt to get you to look through the eyes of the protested was what I meant by apathy. Now dont quote me, I could be mistaken as to what apathy is. smile Contrary to populer belief I am not perfect, I'm just a bartender! ubblol beerchug

I dont think the current administration cares what the world thinks. But then again I bet you I can find a million people in California alone who support the war! I would bet that the majority of the population of Kuait supports it too.

Bush did choose a very contriversial way of "liberation", but I for one cant buy the idea that Sadam was going to be talked down.

I doubt that "aid" means war in any sence of the word, but the Iraqi people were not strong enough to overthrow Sadam, and I have already said how I dont believe he could be talked down... what other choice is there?

Terrorisim will never be defeated, especially when the word can be applied to many differnt areas. If someone really wanted to, they could link terrorisim and the laughable "War on Drugs"! The idea is to get rid of these large cells of people hell-bent on killing whoever they wish just because they dont like their religion/race/ethnicity and the list goes on. That may not be accomplished to a "T" but it can make a difference and that is all we should expect.

This is what Bush is trying to do, he knows that if you give a school yard bully a reddend cheek he will swing back (that is what we are currently seeing) but if you keep fighting back the bully will eventually tire and though the bully is still there and will swing every now and then, you have lessend his ability to go for the one punch knock out.

Nobody said something like that would be easy and wound free and the fight may never be over, but lessening the power they have is the best you can really hope for.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:Quote:


Starving people have overthrown governments befor. The Scots did it, the colonists did it, the English over the Romans. Wars of freedom are won by the heart, not the full belly.



The English over the Romans? Hmm... I thought it was the Goths that sacked Rome.

Or has some new archaeological evidence been found?

Raph


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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Well the Mother of England was a Celt, but on the isle of what we call England (Seen as how the UK is more than just England). Though there is a significant cultural differance, they can still be roped into one name. Though she did not win the indipendance the movment was started and succeded even after her scuicide. wink

Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:Quote:
Well the Mother of England was a Celt, but on the isle of what we call England (Seen as how the UK is more than just England). Though there is a significant cultural differance, they can still be roped into one name. Though she did not win the indipendance the movment was started and succeded even after her scuicide. wink



Are you referring to Bodicea?

Of the large numbers of Romans her army killed, the majority were homesteaders, NOT the military forces she opposed. I realize this isn't as pretty a picture as many choose to paint, but fact is fact.

It was STILL the Goths who sacked Rome, not the Britons.

I'm trying to figure out what Bodicea has to do with your argument, so hopefully in the next go around you can explain it to me. smile

Raph


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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Well... if you look at the context of the original quote you selected, you would see that it was valid in the argument. Starving people have overthrown tyranical governments befor. Thats all, and like I said before, yes she did not succede in the overthrow attempt, it was a catalist in the cause.

The sacking of London, definatly delt with some major military forces, so it wasn't all farmers vs. farmers wink

I hope this helps you understand my post, if not please feel free to PM any questions to me that way we can get off the history lesson and back to our debate... that is unless nobody has anything else to add, in that case pull out your History 101 and turn to chapter 2 biggrin ubblol


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:adding fuel to the fire- the tanks of four planes- how many people died in s11- 3000-3400. True it was a tragedy and a crime.
However, how many people died in afghanistan and iraq since??? according to official figures, 1500 civilians were killed and 8000 injured in Baghdad alone (this figure does not count people who "may or may not have been civilians" eg soldiers who just went home to protect their family) so most probably a hell of a lot more, and that is only one city and its limited official figures. Oh, and 511 coalition casualties so far.

"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" you say zyanya bella... but it is precisely this attitude that the US displayed after S11 that will now be taken up by all the millions of people who loved those who died as a consequence of US indiscretion. For they will also lust for revenge for the deaths of their beloved brethren. The one effective way they know is terrorism. Justice? If this is your attitude then you can certainly expect a lot more American blood to flow, do not be suprised by people who take to the streets to loudly profess they want no part in this fallacy of justice by declaring Bush a persona non grata in Britain.

Just because Iraq is being slowly rebuilt and the dictator is gone, this disgustingly machiavellian foreign policy is still grossly unacceptable to many of us, and we will not be afraid to say so.


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Nice foot your magisty tongue hehe j/k

Everyone is well within their rights to protest whatever it is that they see fit, as long as it is in accordance with the law. So far I have not heard of any illeagle protesting, though impeading the flow of trafic... wink hehehe

Please, if you havent yet, go and find where I was talking about the school yard bully. That may shed some light on the "why" portion of a war on terror.

Also, another aspect of the anti/pro war debate. What would have happend if the US had just sat back and licked it's wounds and not done anything? Would this have invited more terrorisim against the country or possibly world, or would it have been just those four attacks then nothing? I have money on the first scenario frown


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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Posted:If we had done nothing we would have just as much turmoil as we do now. "This big dog will bite when you rattle his cage" rattle they did and bite we did. I can't justify the casualties other than saying that they are the price of war...on both sides. War is an unfortunate but sometimes necessary evil. hug kiss beerchug

Always Beautiful

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:rolleyes I don't believe that..


hug


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:If people accept the war, they must also accept the responsibility of the consequences, as war will only lead to more war. Don't be suprised when the USA is attacked again.



Please remember war is not the only possible response to an attack. IMHO war is necessary only in the rarest of cases, and this is not one of them. There's no excuse for it. Especially not 'they started it first' rolleyes:



Thank f*** he's gone ubbrollsmile: He's not the only one on the warpath... ubblol


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I was staying out of this, but had a little time on my hands.

"This is what Bush is trying to do, he knows that if you give a school yard bully a reddend cheek he will swing back (that is what we are currently seeing) but if you keep fighting back the bully will eventually tire and though the bully is still there and will swing every now and then, you have lessend his ability to go for the one punch knock out. "

I read this and thought it was a quaint analogy, but unrealistic. First, you do not solve a bully's problems by hitting them. Any decent teacher will tell you that. Secondly the fact is that vast numbers of people, far, far more than live in the US, see the US as the bully, someone who needs to be given a 'reddened cheek'. And there's a lot of people with no other way to get to the US than terrorism, so they'll keep doing it until the US stops.

Now imagine that playground is full of good friends. A new kid turns up at the school and starts bossing one of the kids about. What do the other kids do? They group together to work against the new kid. The new kid can try to bully as many as possible, but more and more people will fight against him.

There is no 'Al Quaeda' organising all these terrorist attacks. There is no great enemy. There are literally millions of people who are driven to terrorism as the only way of drawing attention to and fighting for legitimate political, ethical and humanitarian issues. Can you not imagine how bad somebody's life must have been for them to think that the only good thing they can do it kill themselves for a cause they believe in? What's happened to them to so remove all hope and opportunity?

So surely the way to fight terrorism is not to keep imprisoning a constant stream people fighting for what they believe in, but to tackle the underlining issues that have driven the move to terrorism.

This begins to answer the next point:
"What would have happened if the US had just sat back and licked it's wounds and not done anything? Would this have invited more terrorisim against the country or possibly world, or would it have been just those four attacks then nothing?"

If you're really interested, and have time for a long read, please look through the other anti-war threads as I've talked about this before. You seem to have a black and white view of this: that after 9/11 the US had 2 choices: go to war to do nothing. In fact there were many more options. Options more mature, reasonable and complex than the simplistic "let's go round up them evil doers" attitude that's cost a lot more lives than since, and will continue to do so for decades to come.


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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure

Total posts: 86
Posted:Quote:
"This big dog will bite when you rattle his cage" rattle they did and bite we did. I



Zyanya Bella, I'm sure you have a good point behind this simplistic sounding rhetoric so would you please tell me who did the rattling and how they did it?

It sounds to me like a better way to use your analogy would be to say "This dog will go out of its mind and bite whoever the hell it wants to if anybody rattles his cage" rattle somebody did and bite an awful lot of people they have and continue to.

I probably misunderstood what you meant though so please elaborate. wink

once again, who do you mean by "they" and what do they have to do with iraq?


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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Your are right Dom, things must have been really bad for NI to start blowing up every royal car they saw in the greater London area!



I do enough research while at school, and would like to be lazy while away wink so if you have the time, could you please reiterate (sp) the other options? I will admit that there are other possibilities. I do wonder who they would have talked to? The countries that surround the main area of Al' Quieda? I wonder what that would have accomplished.



It is always fun to play "What Ifs?" My Religoius History prof. always likes to throw those out at us. Though when you really think about it, it doesnt matter what could have been done, because the chance to discover alternate options has passed and we must decide what to do with the circumstances in front of us right now.



So, I proppose this to all who disagree with what is being done right now, if you were in Bush's place right now, what would you do? Please dont say what you would have done two years ago, what would you do TODAY Nov. 26/27?



wan hwo ren, the quote is from a song sung by Toby Keith, entitled "Curtosey of the Red, White and Blue". It is a song about the artists feelings after the attacks on Sep 11.



The "Big Dog" bit the person who rattled its cage, but then went after that persons brother too. It didnt go crazy, how do I know this?? Canada still exists right? tongue



I know it will sound harsh but I really have no sympathy for the Queens gardens. Grass will regrow and the plants will be back after winter. Life will go on. cool peace





Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure

Total posts: 86
Posted:thanks for the clarification Laytin smile

now could you please explain why you consider iraq to be related to either the taliban or al quaeda? It has been my understanding that Sadam Hussein did not get along with either of those two groups. I guess they are both Arab, is that why you call them brothers?



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