Page:
pavementmember
121 posts
Location: york, uk


Posted:
So George Bush and his entourage are coming to London. Is anybody else feeling uncomfortable about having this murderous simpleton in Britain, not to mention his gang of gun-toting security guards? Could the timing be any worse for a state visit, given the current public feeling on the situation in Iraq?

It does give us an opportuniy to show The world what we think of Bush and his policies, and it looks like there are going to be massive protests here..

musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
perhaps pelting him with large bags of flour?

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
heck, even south african newspapers are running editorial cartoons about his visit to London!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


pavementmember
121 posts
Location: york, uk


Posted:
Flour sounds good, maybe with a couple of eggs thrown in for good measure. Probably get taken out by snipers before i`ve opened my egg box, though..

musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
three words...tre-bouch-et

fetche les bouche?

Huh??

fetche les bouche!?!

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
I'd be interested to know what the coverage is like in the US. Anyone?

Over here it's non-stop on the news about the security and protests. The great thing is that the Stop the war coalition have been getting more air time than ever before. It's all a bit farcical. Things that have been denied the US include shutting down the underground to stop bombs 50 metres underground getting to Bush and diplomatic immunity should a US agent shoot someone. And they can't let Bush do the traditional speach in Parliament as they know that even our MPs will heckle him.

And this is Bush visiting his greatest ally!

musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
Pretty much the same, you hear about the petition started to stop Bush from coming over? You guys deal wit em for a bit eh tongue

Bush will not address Parliament during his visit. Such a speech could invite the kind of heckling the president received when he spoke to the Australian Parliament last month. ubblol

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


Laytinmember
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US


Posted:
There has not been much US news coverage of Bush's trip to England.

"The greatness of our democracy is in our ability to vary in opinion on issues both current and past." ~ Abraham Lincolin

Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Quote:

three words...tre-bouch-et [Razz]

fetche les bouche?






fetch the mouth?

what?

isnt it fetchez la vasche?

(and i dont do french which is why the spelling is wrong)


Welcome george Bush to London!

Socialist Worker.



musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
member in the quest for the holy grail when the cow was shot over the castle wall? fetchez les bouche!! short for trebouchet.. leest thats what it sounded like to me
EDITED_BY: musashii (1069172950)

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
trust me, its fetchez la vasche(get the cow)

not fetchez la bouche(get the mouth)

wink


musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
right wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Honest!
EDITED_BY: United Caravan Owner's Federation (1069175132)

musashiistarring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA


Posted:
I believe you, as soon as I had a few minutes free this mornin, I said to myself, o yeh, it does sound like vasche, duh wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
exactly.

Raphael96SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA


Posted:
"fetcher" isn't a French word anyhow. tongue

Raph

Zyanya BellaBRONZE Member
member
70 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
Ok I can already see myself getting pummled for this statement but...I support the war in Iraq. I don't think That it is all because of the Bush family thirst for oil, though I do admit it does come into play. How many of us really wanted Saddam in power anyway? Why bitch about Bush when he's doing somethin his father should have done in the first place. The affairs of the world concern us all. Iraq is our business as it is the rest of the worlds. Perhaps certain countries should cease thier bitching and help out a little. Maybe then we'd get somewhere and be able to back out quicker. ....Just a thought...... beerchug

Always Beautiful


Raphael96SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA


Posted:
I don't the "Bush family" wanted this war. The current president's father rejected Cheney's plan when he was in office..likewise Rumsfeld and Cheney proposed the same plan to Clinton, which he rejected too.
It wasn't until they found a president weak enough to not see the danger of getting involved in a war in this fashion that they got their way.

I look forward to voting for the other guy next year..

Raph

Narr(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step


Posted:
who actually when on the march? i really wanted to be there but had to watch it on telly insead frown

my favourite moment was seeing one of the posters saying something along the lines of " a prezel should do it!" that made my day biggrin

she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*


Zyanya BellaBRONZE Member
member
70 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
Last I remember Bush didn't boil people in acid or put them in jail for opposing him....

Always Beautiful


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Don't want to get into an argument here, but I do see a big difference between the two.

Saddam was responsible for mass killings, rapes and tortures and was accountable to no one.

Bush isn't. I accept that a lot of people do hold him responsible for killings because of the wars, but I don't think it's helpful to put him in the same category as Hussain.

I'm aware that many object to the fact that there are many equally repressive regimes that America isn't 'liberating' i.e. that they've chosen Iraq because of its oil.

But is that necessarily a problem? Even if Bush is there for the oil (and that is very debatable), the fact remains that an evil regime has been toppled. America lacks the resources to destroy every such regime and, given public response to this war, would be condemned if it did so.

I fear that some of the protesting that has been happening recently is in danger of weakening the concept of valid protesting; of the protesters that I know, too many of the people involved seem to be in it more for the lifestyle rather than because they understand the issues.

Whilst there are many things wrong with Western civilisation, it is absurd to claim, as many protesters do, that it is a fascist police state.

There are many places in the world where you can be pulled off the streets by police, for no reason, then be tortured and killed, with no comeback whatsoever.

In the West this is very rare, and when uncovered those responsible are generally held accountable.

In any society there are going to be mistakes and injustices, perfection is impossible due to the complexities involved with millions of individuals sharing one land.

The fact remains that we in England and America are very lucky, and this would be very obvious if you'd grown up in Iraq.

There are many valid issues concerning the way the West interacts with the rest of the world i.e. national debts etc, I am concerned that the blind complaining/protesting against anything to do with Bush/western politicians is ultimatly going to be counter productive.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
if there was an applause gremlin i would use it.

thanks for that perspective-adding post dave


R wave

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


Laytinmember
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US


Posted:
Yes, that post said everything that really needed to be said. Thank you Dave for your post.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:


woodnymphmember
313 posts
Location: london,uk


Posted:
..you are right,people aren't thinking about it and using statistics and whatnot to back them up.That's because some people have instinct and gut feelings...when something is WRONG they feel it.We are all being manipulated,by the press,by the government,by the anti government,in the end one goes with their gut feeling cos thats what you can trust.

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
I think I'm repeating myself here, but the protest and the worldwide outcry against the Bush administration are not formed on one issue alone. The invasion of Iraq is but one of many issues that are affecting the world for decades to come. It's a long list: 'the war on terror', Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Israel/Palestine, North Korea, China, the environment, hypocrisy over WMD, etc.... I can happily explain why the actions associated with all these issues were wrong, but trying to cover them all now would take far, far too long.

There's many articles out there in respectable publications all over the world that will tell you about why Bush is wrong. And if you look back in the past you'll find articles and speeches by politicians predicting exactly what has happened as a result of the US government's actions. And the US and UK government's predictions have been shockingly flawed, but they've kept on believing that they're right regardless.

The Bush administration has repeatedly committed acts and spoken words that have dramatically decreased the safety and stability of our world, for decades to come. If the world is a safer place because Iraq and afghanistan are now 'free' then why have 1 in 9 police in the UK protecting Bush and why are there now more large scale terrorist attacks than ever before.

Bush has thrown a lot of fuel on the fundamentalist fire and it'll still be burning bright long after he's retired and living safely with 24 hour government protection. The Bush/Blair speach yesterday was disturbingly laughable. Calling Iraq the main battleground against terrorism when there were no terrorists in Iraq until Bush invaded Iraq.

Terrorism will always exist because terrorism works. You can not fight a war on terrorism. What Bush has proved is that you can antagonize and upset people enough to ensure a steady supply of terrorists for years to come.

While not supporting Saddam I will mention that Iraq was a not more advanced and together than the US in many ways until the Gulf War. Education and medical care were a lot better than the US, with the literacy rate being one of the highest in the world. Saddam had also managed to maintain a Muslim state where fundamentalism was not evident, in fact until Bush pushed them together Saddam was a declared enemy of Al Quaeda. Maybe the US politicians can look at what was good about an Iraq under Saddam and learn.

As to comparing Bush and Saddam - both are bad and both should be removed from power. As to who's worse - I think it's a draw.

Back to Bush's visit, the irony is exemplified by a couple of experiences I've heard of in the past few days:
1- On Tuesday my brother was robbed at knife point while cashing up at the shop he works in. This happened in Central London - Covent Garden. There were multiple witnesses who got amazingly good looks at the robber, and it's likely he left finger prints everywhere. With 5000 police in the capital it took 1 hour for them to arrive at the scene, only for them to tell him they were to busy to look into it. If our security is jepodised by Bush visiting in order to get a good photo for his re-election campaign, then either let him stay home or give him the standard motorcade and let him trust that his policies have made the world safe for him too.

2- Northern Ireland. I'm currently over in Belfast. You don't hear about NI any more but almost every day there is bomb planted, a sectarian killing or other violence. With the start of school a couple of months ago the level of attacks against (mainly Catholic) teachers and schools increased disturbingly. These are all terrorist incidents, occuring in the UK and often committed by known groups; but it's no longer classed terrorism - it's a normal part of NI politics.

In NI the British government learnt that you can not deal with terrorism with more soldiers on the streets and arrogant and threatening words. Yet Blair is happy to apply that outside of his own country.

Bush, Blair and they're governments are misguided, arrogant and hypocritical. This is why we march.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I don't think the prime reason for him coming here is to tell us that we're lucky to have a full set of human rights, but a combination of consolidating UK/America links, boosting his re-election chances and also the anti terrorist thing.

But, like I said above, we are very lucky to have those human rights, a look through history and much of the world at present shows how rare it is to have those rights.

You ask if it's a job well done, and I'm inclined to say that it is. Any attempt to sort out a situation like Iraq is not going to be easy and will involve a lot of pain and apparent injustice.

Whoever took on that job would get a lot of criticism and make mistakes.

The fact remains that, even with the difficulties involved with the American forces being there, the Iraqis are surely better off than they were under the previous oppressive regime?

I find it a little strange that millions of people are taking to the streets to protest about American involvement, but most of them did nothing when that regime was routinely torturing and killing its population.

I fully agree that there is going to be a lot of violence and huge problems, and that it is unlikely that Iraq is going to be fully democratic in the near future, or that it's population will have the same human rights as we in the west, in the near future.

But there's a limit to what can be done in that situation; the same twisted bullies that ran the old regime are surely still there waiting for any chance to gain power again. That whole culture was based on repression and power over others i.e. there were some accustomed to being bullies and the majority were accustomed to being fearful victims.

That mentality, and the social structure that went with it will not dissapear for many years, even under the best of circumstances.

I don't think much of war, I personally would never be a soldier; but I hate more the thought of a population in the grip of an oppressive regime run by the likes of Saddam Hussain and others like him.

I do worry that I'm missing something here, those who protest seem so vehement in their condemnation and I'm sure that my understanding of this situation and its issues is very incomplete.

Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.

spanner- I suspect that one reason Bush isn't intervening in China is that it's impractical to do so; whilst there is no denying that the Chinese rulers are also twisted bullies, going to war with China would probably be the end of the world.

woodnymth- I just disagree. If you're happy that people are not thinking about the issues that's up to you. But gut feeling is in my opinion not the best, and definitly not the only way to come to a conclusion on these issues.

The sheer fact that Bush's, and millions of others, gut feelings point in the opposite direction would seem to disprove the assertion that issues can be decided on its basis.

Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Quote:

going to war with China would probably be the end of the world.




Which is another point the protesters have made: war doesn't ahve to be the answer.

Look at Iran briefly. The issue over Iran's nuclear programme is being tackled most effectively by EU diplomacy. US threats only made the problem worse as Iran became defensive The US actually objected to the talks carried out by Britian, France and German - who have worked with Iran for years - resulting in that government becoming more open to the west.

The US went in 'cowboy' style. The EU used intellegence and diplomacy, and got a lot further.

Narr(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step


Posted:
i think everyone agrees that saddam should have been over thrown, but what people object to is the way in which it was done. it was a sham and still is! saddam is not a stupid man and has toyed with the west for many many years. and i personally think there would have been a war regardless, but bush went in all guns blazing with seeming disgard for other peoples/countries queries and worries. that enraged people. we were already in a very unstable situation, andas has been said before it just added fuel to the fire.

i also think people are protesting to show that even though britain is linked to the US government in this, a good portion of the british population doesn't support or trust him at all. almost in a way to try and protect ourselves.

what i dont understand is why saddam seemed to give in so easily!? that just seems very very odd to me. it has raised my suspisions so much, so much so that i have this nagging feeling that something big is about to happen. for example all these masive power cuts...weather i think not! for it to happen in canada, New York City! London! italy! with such a short period of time inbetween each, its all just a bit more than a coincidece (sp) i personnaly think that they were seeing how much chaos they could cause.
maybe im just being paranoid but i think they are things we cannot brush aside or ignore.

she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*


bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
dave having fully agreed with your last post which was well thought out and constructive i am going to disagree on this one:

"I find it a little strange that millions of people are taking to the streets to protest about American involvement, but most of them did nothing when that regime was routinely torturing and killing its population"

unfortunately due to the present(and pretty much ALL of the past) if everyone who felt strongly about injustice were to march on each issue that bothered them, in this instance a violent dictator, then we would be on the streets every day. impractical i think you'll agree in our capitalist structure which requires people to work in an attempt to live.
this particular case however was more "why does it have to be war? why can't we work it out some other way?" (see i think doms post above about iran)
nobody liked the regime. but very few people think Dubya is/was just doing this for the good of the iraqi people. or we would be at war with everyone. impractical i think you'll agree in our capitalist structure which requires people to be gently or massively corrupt in an attempt to live.


"Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.
........
Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting"

please do not make me lower my high opinion of you by presuming all protesters have the same views and same opinions.... i hope you are just talking about some of the more militant aspects of the protests, and the bigoted views that will help nobody(i think you or someone else mentioned this earlier pointing out the 'we live in a fascist police state' view of some of our less enlightened brethren, a view that shows they have no concept of living in one of these. A suspiscious, right wing state perhaps, but not one where people are killed without knowing the reason why by government agents, a good thing i think you'll agree\)
just to jump back to the start of this paragraph; if you were presnet at the march in london in febraury i am you would have been amazed as i was at the sheer diversity of people marching to stop the war. i feel never before have so many obviously different groups with different viewpoints united on one issue, that for whatever reason war is/was not the best way to remove a threat to the iraqi people. NOT a threat to the world.

anyway.

if i were in the uk i would have been at the protest, shouting my views to mr bush, mainly because i object to the way we were forced into a war he, his backers and TB wanted. actually i am no longer sure TB wanted this war, just that he could not see a challenger for bush in the next election and he wanted to be on the right side of the US government for as long as possible... and that for me would be the worst reason in history to go to war.

Rob

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


Laytinmember
111 posts
Location: bottom left of the US


Posted:
Dom, are you a fan of soccer/football? Did you ever wish to play, perhaps prefesionally, I mean when you were a child? In Iraq, before the first Gulf War, and after, Sadam's Soccer teams were exicuted if they lost! That is just one aspect of how life was under the rule of Sadam.

In all honesty, it isnt too terribly hard to find a better literacy rate than the US, the gerneral consensis of the youth in the US is that they dont care about education. Pop culture has successfully bread a generation of mindless drones, filled with "Slim Shadies" and "Britney Spears".

You compare Bush and Sadam and hold them as equal tyrants, this I can not agree with. What has Bush done that is illeagle? If you try to use this war as an example, I ask that you think again.

At the end of the first Gulf War, sanctions were placed on Iraq, by the UN, after Iraq illeagly invaded a neighboring country. Yes, that was was most definatly about oil. Those sactions were violated numerus times, the UN did not follow through with the punishment of said violations. Now, because the US is part of the UN, they do have the right to act upon those violations. It isnt as easy as that, they do need UN approval, but it did and does not need to be unanimous. This was is leagle and justified under UN law passed in the early '90's.

The Brittish role of pacifisim in NI has not worked either, you just said yourself that the bombings have increased. So, if pacifisim and war do not work, what will?


Narr, the Iraqi army uses out dated Soviet technology, they also use old Soviet tactics. The US and its allies have done nothing but learn these tactics and learn how to obliterate them. Remember the Cold War? Sadam did not give in, he didnt have a chance.


Bush, has put a spin on things since day one. He has tried to make things appear to be something that it is not, the Axis of Evil thing is by far the greatest and most laughable of all his little ploys. While yes the countries listed are on the bottom rung of the human rights ladder, to come out with a list is to do nothing but promte deffensive behavior from those countries. A very stupid move on Bush's part.

The Arab countries, have already opend to the West, McDonalds and 7/11 are already and have been in those countries for years now. Jordon is still the best basketball player to them, and the Pepsi/Coke wars are ever present!

Spanner, if I amased a million people to show up at your house and protest you, how would you react? Would you think us crazy? Or would you just smile and say that we have the right to think and say what we want?

Personaly I would think that they were crazy, but I would also admit that they have the right to their opinions.

Bluecat, Dave is on to something. Yes in our society we need people to work, and yes some people do protest every day, take for example Green Peace, I am sure that somewhere in the vastness of that organisation there is someone protesting somthing every day.

Why is there millions protesting Bush and Blair and not Sadam and Osama?

The reason for this probably falls along the lines of, Sadam and Osama dont listen to the people of the world and their reign is not dependent on public opinion. In short, even if you cried out every day, they wouldnt listen. Protestors have ahope, that who they are protesting will either listen to them, or they will get to the people that the protested listen to.

I think back on the people who wanted to go be human shields in Iraq, where were they when people were jumping out of the doomed towers? Where was their concern for innocent lives then? I am by no means saying that they didnt care, but just that perhaps their concern is a bit misplaced.



Here is my question to those of you who would liked to have, or did protest Bush, Blair and the war; what if there were a million people marching in support of Bush, Blair and the war? What would you think of those people? What would your reaction be?

Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

"Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.
........
Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting"
=========================
please do not make me lower my high opinion of you by presuming all protesters have the same views and same opinions.... i hope you are just talking about some of the more militant aspects of the protests...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The first quote was in connection with some of the protestors I know and my impression that the sound system/party/drugs aspects of the protest scene are of more importance to them than the issues they are protesting about.

As an example, I have a friend who has a specific skill that is valuable on protests and much of her life revolves around going to various protests around the country.
Recently, as she was about to embark on a protest at a militery base I asked her what specific aspects of the base she was protesting about, and she admitted that she had no idea whatsoever.

I can't, and didn't intend, to generalise from the few protestors I know personally to the whole, but other things, such as some of the bad arguments put forward by them, make it plausable to me that there are grounds for suspicion.

The second quote was part of a direct response to an earlier poster who claimed that gut feelings were of more use than rational reasoning when it came to these issues.
My opinion is that that is untrue and I was challenging it by pointing out that those who opposed the protestors position themselves had opposite gut feelings, and that my gut feelings didn't tally with that posters either.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


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