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pavement


member
Location: york, uk

Total posts: 121
Posted:So George Bush and his entourage are coming to London. Is anybody else feeling uncomfortable about having this murderous simpleton in Britain, not to mention his gang of gun-toting security guards? Could the timing be any worse for a state visit, given the current public feeling on the situation in Iraq?

It does give us an opportuniy to show The world what we think of Bush and his policies, and it looks like there are going to be massive protests here..


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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:perhaps pelting him with large bags of flour?

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:heck, even south african newspapers are running editorial cartoons about his visit to London!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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pavement


member
Location: york, uk

Total posts: 121
Posted:Flour sounds good, maybe with a couple of eggs thrown in for good measure. Probably get taken out by snipers before i`ve opened my egg box, though..

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:three words...tre-bouch-et

fetche les bouche?

Huh??

fetche les bouche!?!


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I'd be interested to know what the coverage is like in the US. Anyone?

Over here it's non-stop on the news about the security and protests. The great thing is that the Stop the war coalition have been getting more air time than ever before. It's all a bit farcical. Things that have been denied the US include shutting down the underground to stop bombs 50 metres underground getting to Bush and diplomatic immunity should a US agent shoot someone. And they can't let Bush do the traditional speach in Parliament as they know that even our MPs will heckle him.

And this is Bush visiting his greatest ally!


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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Pretty much the same, you hear about the petition started to stop Bush from coming over? You guys deal wit em for a bit eh tongue

Bush will not address Parliament during his visit. Such a speech could invite the kind of heckling the president received when he spoke to the Australian Parliament last month. ubblol



First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:There has not been much US news coverage of Bush's trip to England.

"The greatness of our democracy is in our ability to vary in opinion on issues both current and past." ~ Abraham Lincolin



Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Quote:
three words...tre-bouch-et <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

fetche les bouche?





fetch the mouth?

what?

isnt it fetchez la vasche?

(and i dont do french which is why the spelling is wrong)


Welcome george Bush to London!

Socialist Worker.




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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:member in the quest for the holy grail when the cow was shot over the castle wall? fetchez les bouche!! short for trebouchet.. leest thats what it sounded like to me
EDITED_BY: musashii (1069172950)


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:trust me, its fetchez la vasche(get the cow)

not fetchez la bouche(get the mouth)

wink



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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:right wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Honest!
EDITED_BY: United Caravan Owner's Federation (1069175132)


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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:I believe you, as soon as I had a few minutes free this mornin, I said to myself, o yeh, it does sound like vasche, duh wink



First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:exactly.

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:"fetcher" isn't a French word anyhow. tongue

Raph


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Would just like to say a big thank you ! to everyone protesting this week smile



"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Posted:Ok I can already see myself getting pummled for this statement but...I support the war in Iraq. I don't think That it is all because of the Bush family thirst for oil, though I do admit it does come into play. How many of us really wanted Saddam in power anyway? Why bitch about Bush when he's doing somethin his father should have done in the first place. The affairs of the world concern us all. Iraq is our business as it is the rest of the worlds. Perhaps certain countries should cease thier bitching and help out a little. Maybe then we'd get somewhere and be able to back out quicker. ....Just a thought...... beerchug

Always Beautiful

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:I don't the "Bush family" wanted this war. The current president's father rejected Cheney's plan when he was in office..likewise Rumsfeld and Cheney proposed the same plan to Clinton, which he rejected too.
It wasn't until they found a president weak enough to not see the danger of getting involved in a war in this fashion that they got their way.

I look forward to voting for the other guy next year..

Raph


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
How many of us really wanted Saddam in power anyway?



How many of us want Bush in power? If certain people who didn't want Bush in power were to intervene, killing 6000-10,000 US civilians, would that be ok? confused

Hey, the USA is our business as it is the rest of the worlds wink tongue


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:who actually when on the march? i really wanted to be there but had to watch it on telly insead frown

my favourite moment was seeing one of the posters saying something along the lines of " a prezel should do it!" that made my day biggrin


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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Posted:Last I remember Bush didn't boil people in acid or put them in jail for opposing him....

Always Beautiful

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:If Bush wants to rid the world of torture and promote freedom of expression, why isn't he intervening in China or Russia?


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Don't want to get into an argument here, but I do see a big difference between the two.

Saddam was responsible for mass killings, rapes and tortures and was accountable to no one.

Bush isn't. I accept that a lot of people do hold him responsible for killings because of the wars, but I don't think it's helpful to put him in the same category as Hussain.

I'm aware that many object to the fact that there are many equally repressive regimes that America isn't 'liberating' i.e. that they've chosen Iraq because of its oil.

But is that necessarily a problem? Even if Bush is there for the oil (and that is very debatable), the fact remains that an evil regime has been toppled. America lacks the resources to destroy every such regime and, given public response to this war, would be condemned if it did so.

I fear that some of the protesting that has been happening recently is in danger of weakening the concept of valid protesting; of the protesters that I know, too many of the people involved seem to be in it more for the lifestyle rather than because they understand the issues.

Whilst there are many things wrong with Western civilisation, it is absurd to claim, as many protesters do, that it is a fascist police state.

There are many places in the world where you can be pulled off the streets by police, for no reason, then be tortured and killed, with no comeback whatsoever.

In the West this is very rare, and when uncovered those responsible are generally held accountable.

In any society there are going to be mistakes and injustices, perfection is impossible due to the complexities involved with millions of individuals sharing one land.

The fact remains that we in England and America are very lucky, and this would be very obvious if you'd grown up in Iraq.

There are many valid issues concerning the way the West interacts with the rest of the world i.e. national debts etc, I am concerned that the blind complaining/protesting against anything to do with Bush/western politicians is ultimatly going to be counter productive.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:if there was an applause gremlin i would use it.

thanks for that perspective-adding post dave


R wave


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Laytin


member
Location: bottom left of the US

Total posts: 111
Posted:Yes, that post said everything that really needed to be said. Thank you Dave for your post.




Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:..you are right,people aren't thinking about it and using statistics and whatnot to back them up.That's because some people have instinct and gut feelings...when something is WRONG they feel it.We are all being manipulated,by the press,by the government,by the anti government,in the end one goes with their gut feeling cos thats what you can trust.

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Don't worry, I'm not looking for an argument. I'm sure we could all discuss whether we're for or against the war until we're blue in the face! smile

I just object to this man coming to the UK to tell us how lucky the West is to have a full set of human rights, as if it were some kind of privilege to be applied at his discretion!

WMDs, Osama, Saddam aside: maybe the day I'll support this war is the day I see all those human rights restored to the Iraqi people as a result, which is definitely not the case as yet.

A job well done? ubbcrying












"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I think I'm repeating myself here, but the protest and the worldwide outcry against the Bush administration are not formed on one issue alone. The invasion of Iraq is but one of many issues that are affecting the world for decades to come. It's a long list: 'the war on terror', Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Israel/Palestine, North Korea, China, the environment, hypocrisy over WMD, etc.... I can happily explain why the actions associated with all these issues were wrong, but trying to cover them all now would take far, far too long.

There's many articles out there in respectable publications all over the world that will tell you about why Bush is wrong. And if you look back in the past you'll find articles and speeches by politicians predicting exactly what has happened as a result of the US government's actions. And the US and UK government's predictions have been shockingly flawed, but they've kept on believing that they're right regardless.

The Bush administration has repeatedly committed acts and spoken words that have dramatically decreased the safety and stability of our world, for decades to come. If the world is a safer place because Iraq and afghanistan are now 'free' then why have 1 in 9 police in the UK protecting Bush and why are there now more large scale terrorist attacks than ever before.

Bush has thrown a lot of fuel on the fundamentalist fire and it'll still be burning bright long after he's retired and living safely with 24 hour government protection. The Bush/Blair speach yesterday was disturbingly laughable. Calling Iraq the main battleground against terrorism when there were no terrorists in Iraq until Bush invaded Iraq.

Terrorism will always exist because terrorism works. You can not fight a war on terrorism. What Bush has proved is that you can antagonize and upset people enough to ensure a steady supply of terrorists for years to come.

While not supporting Saddam I will mention that Iraq was a not more advanced and together than the US in many ways until the Gulf War. Education and medical care were a lot better than the US, with the literacy rate being one of the highest in the world. Saddam had also managed to maintain a Muslim state where fundamentalism was not evident, in fact until Bush pushed them together Saddam was a declared enemy of Al Quaeda. Maybe the US politicians can look at what was good about an Iraq under Saddam and learn.

As to comparing Bush and Saddam - both are bad and both should be removed from power. As to who's worse - I think it's a draw.

Back to Bush's visit, the irony is exemplified by a couple of experiences I've heard of in the past few days:
1- On Tuesday my brother was robbed at knife point while cashing up at the shop he works in. This happened in Central London - Covent Garden. There were multiple witnesses who got amazingly good looks at the robber, and it's likely he left finger prints everywhere. With 5000 police in the capital it took 1 hour for them to arrive at the scene, only for them to tell him they were to busy to look into it. If our security is jepodised by Bush visiting in order to get a good photo for his re-election campaign, then either let him stay home or give him the standard motorcade and let him trust that his policies have made the world safe for him too.

2- Northern Ireland. I'm currently over in Belfast. You don't hear about NI any more but almost every day there is bomb planted, a sectarian killing or other violence. With the start of school a couple of months ago the level of attacks against (mainly Catholic) teachers and schools increased disturbingly. These are all terrorist incidents, occuring in the UK and often committed by known groups; but it's no longer classed terrorism - it's a normal part of NI politics.

In NI the British government learnt that you can not deal with terrorism with more soldiers on the streets and arrogant and threatening words. Yet Blair is happy to apply that outside of his own country.

Bush, Blair and they're governments are misguided, arrogant and hypocritical. This is why we march.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I don't think the prime reason for him coming here is to tell us that we're lucky to have a full set of human rights, but a combination of consolidating UK/America links, boosting his re-election chances and also the anti terrorist thing.

But, like I said above, we are very lucky to have those human rights, a look through history and much of the world at present shows how rare it is to have those rights.

You ask if it's a job well done, and I'm inclined to say that it is. Any attempt to sort out a situation like Iraq is not going to be easy and will involve a lot of pain and apparent injustice.

Whoever took on that job would get a lot of criticism and make mistakes.

The fact remains that, even with the difficulties involved with the American forces being there, the Iraqis are surely better off than they were under the previous oppressive regime?

I find it a little strange that millions of people are taking to the streets to protest about American involvement, but most of them did nothing when that regime was routinely torturing and killing its population.

I fully agree that there is going to be a lot of violence and huge problems, and that it is unlikely that Iraq is going to be fully democratic in the near future, or that it's population will have the same human rights as we in the west, in the near future.

But there's a limit to what can be done in that situation; the same twisted bullies that ran the old regime are surely still there waiting for any chance to gain power again. That whole culture was based on repression and power over others i.e. there were some accustomed to being bullies and the majority were accustomed to being fearful victims.

That mentality, and the social structure that went with it will not dissapear for many years, even under the best of circumstances.

I don't think much of war, I personally would never be a soldier; but I hate more the thought of a population in the grip of an oppressive regime run by the likes of Saddam Hussain and others like him.

I do worry that I'm missing something here, those who protest seem so vehement in their condemnation and I'm sure that my understanding of this situation and its issues is very incomplete.

Yet so much of what the protestors are saying seems not to be looking very deeply into it, and much seems to be blatently false.

spanner- I suspect that one reason Bush isn't intervening in China is that it's impractical to do so; whilst there is no denying that the Chinese rulers are also twisted bullies, going to war with China would probably be the end of the world.

woodnymth- I just disagree. If you're happy that people are not thinking about the issues that's up to you. But gut feeling is in my opinion not the best, and definitly not the only way to come to a conclusion on these issues.

The sheer fact that Bush's, and millions of others, gut feelings point in the opposite direction would seem to disprove the assertion that issues can be decided on its basis.

Even if I did agree with you, my gut feelings are telling me that there's something not quite right with the view that the protestors are presenting.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Quote:
going to war with China would probably be the end of the world.



Which is another point the protesters have made: war doesn't ahve to be the answer.

Look at Iran briefly. The issue over Iran's nuclear programme is being tackled most effectively by EU diplomacy. US threats only made the problem worse as Iran became defensive The US actually objected to the talks carried out by Britian, France and German - who have worked with Iran for years - resulting in that government becoming more open to the west.

The US went in 'cowboy' style. The EU used intellegence and diplomacy, and got a lot further.


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