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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ever wondering Y the best equipped military force in history does so poorly in battle, and shoots all its allies???

Well I did, and now I know. Theyre all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .

If U dont believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.

SBS TV Extract quote:When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.

This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yep, this is somewhat true. Pilots (dont know any special forces) do use a caffeen pill for long flights and or missions. Is this to blame for accidents? Sorry no.

There are alot of possible reasons why FF incindents happen.

Malfunctioning equipment, US tanks and other large vehicles have the ability to transmit a FF beacon. When this doesnt work, bad things happen.

GPS scramblers, yes even Iraq has these and has used them in both Gulf Wars.

Bad intel

faulty equipment


I have driven some very long distances 4 cross country trips and two half crountry trips under my belt I can tell you one thing, caffeen and other no doze type drugs do not cause problems that would effect ones preformance.

Is it technically mind altering, yes... speeking of I need to go get some caffeen.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Caffeine pills, perhaps.
Dex amphetamine, yes.

A tradition that goes back to the Berserkers, hey


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:aww i'd love to see that program - shall have to see if it's on over here

it would explain a lot of the random killings/shooting into crowds/torture and abuse of captives etc - speed and morals don't mix well


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Me and Chris were discussing the easiest way to have faught the war in Iraq and came up with this solution:

WHat does England have lots of?

Pubs.

and what are there a load of in these pubs?

Pissed druggie skinhead racists.

so our idea was to go round the pubs at chucking out time recruiting all the pissheads, give them 1/5th Kg of Coke...and let them loose in Iraq.

Killing everything indiscriminatly regardless of ethnicity, religion, colour, political bias.......

hang on

...isnt that what the Americans did?..



OJ!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow a bunch of hate-mongerers in here, hrm... next generation terrorists maybe? Liberal extreemists, all drugged up and ready to **** the first thing that walks by be it man or beast!

Hrm I thought that if you were liberal you were supposed to be open minded and accepting of all? And arnt the Brittish supposed to be open minded?

Well it was the British who started the whole enslavment of the Africans, not to mention the attempted breading out of Scotish blood. Hrm what other types of genocide will they prefor in the up comming molenium? Not to mention their continued oppresion of religious freedome in Ireland. I guess they are afraid that if they loose that part of their country, that it will out prosper them in less than a century like America did when it seperated from the oppressors.

Hey guys, erase the hate!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Liberal extreemists, all drugged up and ready to **** the first thing that walks by be it man or beast!I doubt it - we don't associate sex and violence quite as easily as you do - unless those stars were for the word "hug"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:No Frosty and violence was not even mentioned in that scentance just drugs and sex.

I figure if yall can be dicks, why cant I?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Noona
Noona

Cake lover
Location: Button Moon
Member Since: 13th Jan 2002
Total posts: 258
Posted:hehehe UCOF made me chuckle anyway

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poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:You know the one thing that I think a lot of people can't seem to get a grasp of is that it is a war and hey, sh1t happens in war.

There are no rules only consequences.


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poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by The United Chains of Fire (Jon):

Killing everything indiscriminatly regardless of ethnicity, religion, colour, political bias.......

hang on

...isnt that what the Americans did?..

And just in my opinion ... smiley or no smiley that was uncalled for.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I found the doco was pretty boring after a while, but its certainly not based on wild accusations against the US air force. It's true, US pilots are given go-pills (dex amphetamine) to help them fly missions.

They interviewed pilots, ex pilots, squadron leaders, victims, US air force medicos etc. The US air force does not deny sending pilots out with bags of go-pills, in fact they defend their right to use go-pills, and pilots are not allowed to fly if they dont agree to popping pills. Unfortunately, no advice is given to pilots on how to use go-pills, and some take them like candy and end up addicted. It certainly seem likely the amphed up pilots have been responsible for the death of British and Canadian soldiers as well as many civilians

Now, would u guys travel in a commercial plane if u knew the pilot was on go-pills?????????


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Mmm... you would be supprised what can happen during ops.

I know of people being run over by tanks while acting as the ground guide for the tank.

This was in peace time too... accidents happen, people make mistakes. However just because a documentery makes things seem a certain way, it doesnt mean that they are that way.


Have you seen these docs. on Discovery Channel about future insects? I mean like millions of years in the future. It is all speculation but I garuntee you that somebody out there will view it as fact.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:No speculation here Ray. There was footage where these issues (US pilots on drugs) were being discussed in the British parliament, in relation to the death of British soldiers.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Okay the phrasing of topic is an issue too.

Sounds like they are trying to say that they are all on crack/acid/pot/STD/PCP/LSD whatever the rest of yall are on.

In a war time situation there are many things that can go wrong.

Since I didnt see the Doc. I need you to be 100% honest, did they say that there were no other possible reasons for the accidents?

If not, to jump to the conclusion that the super no doze that they take, is nothing but speculation.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ray, enjoy your denial while Rome burns

Did they say that there were no other possible reasons for the accidents? NO, of course not, they neve say 100% anything; thats nave. But, the British and Canadian governments are extremely concerned that go-pill are implicated in the death of their soldiers, and that's good enough for me.

super no doze thats a nice euphemism for speed

As said previously, the US air force does not deny forcing pilots to take drugs. In fact they defend their policy on go-pill. It is not speculation to suggest that this policy could lead to accidents. As u know, drugs are dangerous. Y do u think they dont let truckies and commercial pilots use em???


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:If you're caught driving a car on speed here it's immediate loss of license I believe.

I'm sure they're not doing that because their No-Doze(tm) makes them better drivers.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Obviusly it isnt speed nor is it a crontroled drug IE illeagle.

Next, tell your Govs. to mind their own damn business. I mean your alwasy bitching about how terrible it is for America to show "concerns" about the way your government does business, guess what, now its my turn.

I never said they were forced, secondly I never said anything about the Air Force... read again!


I do not know exactly what it is that they take, I'll ask one of our pilots on Monday for a name. I can also tell you that I dont know if comercial pilots and truckers use or dont use them.

Are they illeagle? I dont think so. Then again they may be illeagle for civilians to own/use, then again you cant exactly drive a tank on the weekends for fun


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Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:quote:Obviusly it isnt speed nor is it a crontroled drug IE illeagle.
I don't think anyone here said that it was speed. I think people maybe it clear that it was dex-amphetamine otherwise known as Dexedrine, which is prescribed as a ADHD drug for children. But just because it's prescribed to children doesn't make it any less dangerous and highly addictive then any other amphetamine. I have known quite a few kids and friends who became highly dependent on Dexedrine. Also you have to remember these drug are prescribe for ADHA and Narcolepsy not to help you stay up while you fly a plane. Some effects of amphetamines that (I think anyways) call for concern are blurred vision,loss of coordination, uncontrollable movements (twitching, jerking, tremors, etc...), a false sense of self-confidence or superiority, ect. Obviously a lot more dangerous then a caffiene pill. Whether it's illegal or not is besides the point as prescription drugs can and are as addictive as illegal drugs.

quote:Next, tell your Govs. to mind their own damn business. It is our governments business to find out what happen when 4 of our soldiers were killed and 8 injured.

quote:secondly I never said anything about the Air Force... read again!
Didn't you ask stone to be 100 % honest about the "doc."? And aren't we all talking about the US Air force?


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:ritalin.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:When Stone said
quote: As said previously, the US air force does not deny forcing pilots to take drugs and when I missread it and thought he said "As you said..." thats why I brought up the USAF. My bust. However every branch of the US armed forces has pilots... not just the USAF. Once again... my bust folks sorry for my confusion.


If the pilot had not been on dexedrin, would the FF incident still have happend? I would wager that it would have.

quote: It is our governments business to find out what happen when 4 of our soldiers were killed and 8 injured. Well... if you wanna play that card, why do you care if the US Gov wants to find and bring to justice those who conspired and killed 3000 people? Especially when it was no accident!


Accidents happen, things look different from the air. A muzzle flash looks the same when its pointed at you as it does when it is horizontal with the ground, especially at a few thousand feet! ((in referance to the accidental bombing of Canadian troops))

I dont know all the facts on that case, so I will say no more.


How many FF accidents have there been? A handfull maybe a dozen or so?

How many sorties are flown every day that do not have FF accodents?

Did the Doc. forget to mention those two key points? I would wager that it was very one sided and did not.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Next, tell your Govs. to mind their own damn business. I mean your alwasy bitching about how terrible it is for America to show "concerns" about the way your government does business, guess what, now its my turn.mind their own business?

what like yor goverment does? ROFL

several of our soldiers were shot by america's soldiers - it's very much our business - and we wouldn't let our pilots fly around drugged up because we're responsible enough to CARE if we shoot friendly troops - your message makes it fairly clear your position is "oh, well tough eh"
quote:Well... if you wanna play that card, why do you care if the US Gov wants to find and bring to justice those who conspired and killed 3000 people? Especially when it was no accident!I'm sure the iraqis and the afghans would like to see the american soldiers who tortured raped and pillaged caught and dealt with too

BUT

guess what

ONE country decided to opt out - well force it's way out - of the international war crimes pact - in fact they refused to even answer questions on war crimes it and it's soldiers committed

anyone wanna guess which country decided it was about the law?

don't start getting righteous about it. lets just find out whether doping up pilots is a bad thing. the US might feel it's above reproach in war... but it's not - noone is - and friendly fire deaths must be investigated. if there's a way of reducing them surely you should be embracing it and this research??


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Original Pyro
member
Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 17th Aug 2003
Total posts: 26
Posted:You wanna summoit cool about the british government? They grow stupid amounts of weed in the countryside. Wanna Know how I know this:? I've been there, up to my waist in weed n it was great.

Take the power back

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually my position on all FF incidents, is that it is horrible. Finding the real cause, and not blaming the easiest possibility, is the only thing you can do to help ease the loss to the family memebers.


quote: I'm sure the iraqis and the afghans would like to see the american soldiers who tortured raped and pillaged caught and dealt with too Yep uhhuh, there were many cases of whole towns being sacked and the women tied up and raped and stores and banks pillaged for their endless bounty.

Yes I do embrace the idea of research into the prevention of FF incidents. However unlike you I dont look for the easiest explination.

A great English author once had his character say, "Once you have emilimated all impossibilities, what ever remains however improbable, must be the truth."

However, do you know all the facts off the FF incidents? I dont, and I would bet my next years pay, that you dont know everything either. So, when your done speculating, come and find me and we will have a real debate


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Hey guess what Ray... that's what they're investigating... and that's what's turning up the drugs stuff...

not complicated issit


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Just talked to one of my pilots, the rumor that you heard that they are forced to take them... BULL SHIT total bull shit. He has never taken any.

Second there are two types of pills that are there, one to keep you awake, one to help you sleep after taking the other.

He has also said (just so you know I am not holding back) that it is possible that there could be a connection between some FF incidents and the pill.

Then again he also confirmd that at 300+ miles/hour and at a few thousand feet things look differnt. He also said that there isnt any difference between a muzzle flash that is pointed along the ground and a muzzle flash pointed at you.


If someone wants to come up with all the facts about these FF incidents that the doc. talked about feel free... I would like to see them.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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brainstorma
brainstorma

old hand
Location: under the fairie wheel
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 1184
Posted:ok question how is it that the US army is the bigest in the world has the bigest isidents of acidental death dew to mis understanding so to speak of there target??

yesterday it was reported that a camra man was shot down and killed outside a jail by US troupe while he was filming them

there eplination was they they thought he had a rocket lerncher

now if im not mistaken all press wear flack jakets woth "press" on the fromt and back and the last time i looked a tv camra looks nothing like a rocket larnch. the only simularity is that they are both held on the sholder

if this another case of fatige in solders??

ray there is documented evidance of the selected groups of pilots where givent forms to sign stating they it was there choice to take the pills but if they didnt sign they would not be alowed into the air this was ment to be volentery so in esens these forms where illigal and imoral to force these man to take class a drugs which state in plane writing not to use heavy machinry while under the influnce


"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, and screaming "WOO-HOO What a ride!"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Okay, I have yet to hear about the reporter. I also know that you dont have all the facts about it.

Was it day or night, was he wearing the flack, where was he standing? Hrmm what other things can effect a situation.


quote: ray there is documented evidance of the selected groups of pilots where givent forms to sign stating they it was there choice to take the pills but if they didnt sign they would not be alowed into the air this was ment to be volentery so in esens these forms where illigal and imoral to force these man to take class a drugs which state in plane writing not to use heavy machinry while under the influnce Look, I am not trying to rationalise anything, nor am I arguing the legality or the morality of the use of the pills.

My pilot, a guy I work with every day, says he isnt forced to take them. He even said that he hasnt take them.


What it says on the bottle is irrelivent, why? Because that involves use for the general public, last time I checked the military was not the general public.

Yes in some cases we are above the law, and in others we can get slammed twice as hard as you civilians.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:NO
quote:Yes in some cases we are above the lawYou - any other army - america - is NOT above the law.

NOONE is.

Why so keen/desperate to excuse everything the us army does? why can't you even say "shit, that sucks, they should be more careful" - instead it's a list of excuses and reasons why it was ok for them to shoot a Cameraman

If it's so easy to make those mistakes why doesn't the british army or any other do it all the time mister?

and do think about your argument

first you say there are no pills

next paragraph:
quote:Second there are two types of pills that are there, one to keep you awake, one to help you sleep after taking the other.whoops. that's good - speed And valium


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Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:quote: Well... if you wanna play that card, why do you care if the US Gov wants to find and bring to justice those who conspired and killed 3000 people? Especially when it was no accident!
Because it was not only Americans that died in 9/11 (I'm assuming that the 3000 you refer to). Secondly noone questioned the US taking a stand against Al-Queda. The US had full support of the UN when entering Afghanistan. Have you brought justice to anyone by invading Iraq? Last time I checked there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. The US terrorist alert has not gone down since these two wars. Iraqis are still killing US soldiers but this is going out of the intial topic.
quote:If someone wants to come up with all the facts about these FF incidents that the doc. talked about feel free... I would like to see them.
A debate works better when both people are educated on the topic. If you are joining the discussion isn't your responsibility to get the facts.

quote:What it says on the bottle is irrelivent, why? Because that involves use for the general public, last time I checked the military was not the general public. So military people aren't human? Do drugs not effect them like it would any other human being? You


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Umm... yes we are! Its illeagle for a civilian to own a tank, yet there are how many in the US Army and Marine Corps?

I could go on and on about how laws dont apply to the military.


Who said it was okay? I was just trying to see if there was a possible reason that an accident could happen!


I do wonder if you have ever been shot at? Can you understand what is going on over there? I doubt it.


quote: first you say there are no pills Where did I say this?

quote:
If it's so easy to make those mistakes why doesn't the british army or any other do it all the time mister?
Happens all the time? Okay whatever... how can I not call you a moron?

I think you need to stop taking drugs, cause your mind is all fu(ked up!


quote: Because it was not only Americans that died in 9/11 (I'm assuming that the 3000 you refer to). Secondly noone questioned the US taking a stand against Al-Queda. The US had full support of the UN when entering Afghanistan. Have you brought justice to anyone by invading Iraq? Last time I checked there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. The US terrorist alert has not gone down since these two wars. Iraqis are still killing US soldiers but this is going out of the intial topic BS Tika!! Do a search for the "Anti War" topic, thats 18 pages of people bitching about the US action against Al Queda!!

quote: So military people aren't human? Do drugs not effect them like it would any other human being? You Yes, I am a Marine, I am invincible, invulnrable and all around superman! </sarcasim>

Okay, use for civilians is not the same as use for the military.

quote: A debate works better when both people are educated on the topic. If you are joining the discussion isn't your responsibility to get the facts Well when things dont air on TV I cant watch them now can I? So how can I watch the Doc.???


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