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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ever wondering Y the best equipped military force in history does so poorly in battle, and shoots all its allies???

Well I did, and now I know. Theyre all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .

If U dont believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.

SBS TV Extract quote:When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.

This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i am not ridiculing you ray.

i was interested in the conflict i saw between someone who is so passionate about their religion yet has dedicated their life to an organisation that is at its heart, a killing machine (and that's not being over the top - its the only way to describe a group of people who can only belong if they are a basic rifleman and have hand to hand combat training, just in case they are at some point required to go and kill).

but now i get it.

in all the bibles i've ever read or studied it says: exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill".

in some bibles updated in the last century (like the niv for example), it says something like:
exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

so then, what exactly IS murder...?!


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:decide for yourself and be true to that

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:in all the bibles i've ever read or studied it says: exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill".

in some bibles updated in the last century (like the niv for example), it says something like:
exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."that's SO convenient

i bet the language got changed to stop christian folk refusing to get into the killing business

besides sod the commandments - read the bible, nowhere does it say killing in any form is ok

*shrugs*

Ray - I'm not trying to ridicule you, but more to understand wtf is going on in your head, it's hard work.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:that's a bit bit subjective innit?

sounds a bit like 'do what thou wilt' to me...
ever heard of a bloke called aleister crowley ray?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, why are you filled with so much hate?

I said I wasnt going to explain it, just open your mind and try to see things from my point of view.

I am sure you are all smart enough to do that, after all, you expect me to do it at the drop of a hat.

If you just cant seem to understand then poo on you, try not to be so damn judgmental.

No Coleman, it isnt do what thou wilt, it is make up your mind about what murder is and then follow it.

However do what ever you want, you will reap the rewards eventually.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:quote:Frequently it goes from discussion to Everyone Against Raymund.Ray, there was no malice intended, but IMHO, it goes more like Raymund Against Everyone else. I thought u liked the discussions; apologies for hurting your feelings

Dunno if u mean me, but yeah I have trouble with the US Military being involved with the production of a childrens show; think about it.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
However do what ever you want, you will reap the rewards eventually. in your humble opinion of course, right ray...?

imho: i personally see no difference between killing a human being and 'murder'.
in the eyes of the law, there are degrees to murder as well, technicalities which reduce murder to manslaughter and so and so on.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:quote: I said I wasnt going to explain it, just open your mind and try to see things from my point of view.
Raymund...This is a joke surely.

how can you expect people to see thigns from your point of view if you don't explain it?

Perhaps this does explain why you seem to get aggressive quickly when people pointout their own points of view.

To see something from a different point of view REQUIRES understanding, you can't just say to think this way coz i said so, that's no the way people work.


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Charles, I am not going to debate my faith or my priciples nor will I continue to subject myself to someone elses judgment.

Coleman, yes in my ohh so humble opinion. You dont have to agree with me thats cool.

Stone, thats cool man, you dont have to like the US military sponsoring childrens shows. We sponsor childrens activities on base, what is wrong with sponsoring a TV show?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Stone, thats cool man, you dont have to like the US military sponsoring childrens shows. We sponsor childrens activities on base, what is wrong with sponsoring a TV show?It's rather like an abortion clinic sponsoring a children's hospital or a babycare tv show

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:So you're saying that planned parenting cant have anything to do with keeping your child healthy?

Frosty, you have no heart man.

You see a gun and think of nothing but killing and murder, I see a gun and see responsibility in one of its ultimate forms. The second greatest power in the world is to have the power to kill and then show mercy. The greatest is to bring a life into this world.


Though that isnt the point.

The point is, is that with one hand you can destroy and with the same hand you can create. There is nothing wrong with this.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:You see a gun and think of nothing but killing and murder, I see a gun and see responsibility in one of its ultimate forms. The second greatest power in the world is to have the power to kill and then show mercy. The greatest is to bring a life into this world.i don't consider violence a wonderful thing and a great power as you might

i'd consider it an abhorrance


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:(Takes off his moderators cap)

Raymund, that is just plain scary that you think like that!

Pretty much every person in the world has the ability to kill another person. There is nothing special or powerful about that at all.

In fact, as it's pretty much average and boring, cause there are so few exceptions.

Being in a position where your decision can see someone live or die, such as a judge presiding over a murder trial, is a big responsibility.

But don't for second think that no-one else has that sort of resposibility.

We all do...failing using implements, we can even strangle one another, or break their necks, or a million other horrible gruesome things.

In fact, it might pay to think long and hard about what i've just said, and perhaps try to come across as a more postive person.

I'm just thinking of how many people on HoP, all with the power to kill, aren't particularly happy with you...

But then again, that's not a very moderatish thing to say now is it?

To me, the greastest power in the world is to make a positve change in someone elses life without affecting anyone els in a negative way. And the saddest point is when a opportunity like that is overlooked...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, I dont see violence as a great thing, dont pretend to know me, you dont.


A possible definition of mercy is, having the ability to kill and then not.

I dont see that as scary.

I dont have a positive or negitive outlook on life, I have a realistic outlook.

The reality of life, is that there is some terrible things out there. People who rape and murder with out thought or care of anyone else in the world. People who take advantage of the elderly and infirmed. Doctors who prescribe the wrong medicine resulting in a patients death, people being beaten by prison guards. People taking photos of little kids.


Are you trying to hide from this? Me I have taken a stand against it, yet I am seen as a totaitarisim, right winged, homophobic, warmongering racist pig.


Sorry Chuck, that aint me.

I know what happens in the world, and I am here to fight it. I swore and oath to protect the people of the United States from all enimies both forigne and domestic. It doesnt matter if it is and army or a dirty old man with a camera! However on a more personal level I will aid any in need, reguardless of who they are, where they are from, what color or religion they are.


You think I am worrid about a name on the net being angry with me? Odds of them doing anything are about 1 million to 1, I am more worried about the guy with an AK-47 and a grudge against me just because I am American.

You're wrong though, normal people dont have the ability to kill/murder another human.

Unfortuntaly man is greedy, you cant lift someone up with out pissing off someone else.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Interesting world views!

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Thank you

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.Ray I totally understand that that is your opinion and I'm not gonna ask you to justify it or change it but what I would be grateful of is if you could expound on the difference between the two.

Like yourself I have my own opinion on the subject and it makes it difficult for me to understand yours.I'm not trying to start an argument I am just intrigued.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:According to my dictionary, to kill is to take life, and to murder is to take life illegaly.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Onewheeldave, you're pretty close to how I view the two.


Thank you for asking like that Poiaholic. You have shown me respect, so I will do likewise and return the favor with your answer.


If there is an unavoidable accident, granted it is technically your fault, and someone dies, did you violate one of the 10 commandments? No, it was an accident.

Murder however, is done out of malice, it done because somehow somewhere the person stops caring for the life of another and for themselves. Whatever motive they contrive, doesnt matter.

In my definition and in my opinion it is what is in the heart that makes you a murderer.

I believe that the commandment is do not murder, because later in the Bible you will read that Jesus says the two greatest commandments. The first being, To love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind body and streangth, and the second is to love your neigbor as yourself.

If I kill in the line of duty, I kill because of love for my fellow neighbor, not out of malice. I kill because there is no other option left for me to use.


Is this everyones view, no it isnt but thats life.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Moohaahaa
Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 382
Posted:War On Drugs

I though this was going to be a nice light-hearted topic about a silly idea loads of governments have about taking away peoples personal choices.

I just wanted everyone to now I would take responsibility of all the POW's.



Sorry to lighten the mood in here.
Go get serious again


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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diabodandy
member
Location: Dallas
Member Since: 30th Jul 2003
Total posts: 3
Posted:I can understand Raymonds p.o.v.
Reality sux... and the reality of life is that without Ray over there disgusting you with his practical approach to life while simulteneously doing his job, you would probably not have nearly as content a life. You wouldn't be able to spout your ideals about how the world "should" be. Sure.. I agree that it SHOULD be all roses and blue skys and neighbors really would help each other instead of harm each other. But that's just now how it is. So until everybody else out there decides to follow suit on that world peace thing. I'm happy he's protecting me and mine from the bad things that can harm us.
Do you eat meat? wear leather shoes or coats?
for that matter do you walk in grass? do you know how many beings you are killing when you take a stroll through the grass? How are you ever going to sleep at night now knowing that you've killed?
And as far as your quote of mr. Crowly goes... he also said "choose ye an island! Fortify it! Dung it about with enginery of war!" "With it ye shall smite the peoples; and none shall stand before you." yeah.. he was a way peaceful man.


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:I think you might have missed what we're discussing right now - i.e. that life isn't black and white, that it is shades of grey and just as you said we eat meat etc etc it's not just black and white

quote:Reality sux... and the reality of life is that without Ray over there disgusting you with his practical approach to life while simulteneously doing his job, you would probably not have nearly as content a life.I'd argue that though!

Cos really... doesn't look like saddam was ready to kill the planet.

I'm not sure i'd call it a very practical way of life either, but i hestitate from saying anything too derogatory at this time of night


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:my quote of crowley was in jest (hence the ).

but it did have some relevance at least.
yours is completely out of context.
if you know crowley, you know that his words are often written under an abrasive and violent veil.
if you take his writings at face value there is little cohesion but you will find metaphors that fit consitently throughout.

like he said himself, do what thou wilt - make up your own mind and if you choose to dismiss it, from your standpoint, you will lose nothing.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, where did you get the idea that Sadam was after the world? The military isnt here just for that. A person with a weapon isnt ones only enimy.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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markeespark
member
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 7th Sep 2002
Total posts: 62
Posted:Oh my god.
Ray i truly feel for you I mean your obviously in a grunt position with very little responsibility as you find the time to post on and on the regurgitated bs propiganda circulated by your government and mainstream media(try gnn for a less bysus oppinion).Get a clue bro.you are a tool in a much bigger game.Your government is a sinister machine hell bent on world domination weather is be obvious or not
.I cant believe that there are people out there with such little regard for human life!
Thy shall not kill, is that not black and white enough for you !
However you seem to interprate it as thy shall not murder,then what is murder?Going half way around the world to free(****) a nation of people half way around the world under false pretences for what ?Vested oil interests to keep american petrol cheap. m m m m m murder. thy shall not?unless we need somthing.
now i know i have deviated from the subject,
going to war on drugs,but i was flabbergausted yup flabberguasted to read what this thread had to offer.
Also someone mentioned the us government being above the law.
Whos law?there law.not designed for them,designed to keep everyone else in line.Which brings me to .. . . .
THE WAR ON DRUGS aka the biggst joke ever played on modern man.More like a war on any competition!!!
Anyhoo ray you sound like a intellegent man with a heart and lots of fire in his soul so perhaps you should seek out you informatin from those with no agenda and no vested interests.


Markeespark Sparkeemark & me

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:How about everyone giving Ray a break.

He's chosen a career as a marine so obviously he's got a different attitude to the military and politics than some of us here.

You can basically argue over the rights/wrongs of America in the middle East for ever, I'm sure Ray's put at least as much thought into it as anyone else here and he's come to his conclusions.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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markeespark
member
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 7th Sep 2002
Total posts: 62
Posted:so it dosnt scare you a little that the american forces hop representive ray ray dosnt seem to see killing other people as murder,just as killing??
I dont believe that ray is at fault and i dont think he isnt capeable of making his own decisions however i do think he like the rest of the american armed forces and public are being lied to over and over and over again.
ray Im sorry if i personally attacked you but you are part of a global opression of religion drugs and free will.


Markeespark Sparkeemark & me

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think there's very few of us who, however peace loving, wouldn't kill under certain circumstances; such as to save our families from someone intent on killing them.

I don't want to speak for Ray, but I suspect most marines and armed forces personnel in general, regard any killing they may have to do as being to protect people they care about.
quote:Originally posted by markeespark:
ray Im sorry if i personally attacked you but you are part of a global opression of religion drugs and free will. What is the point of this; you know perfectly well that Ray does not consider himself to be part of a global oppression and the way you've phrased it is unlikely to encourage any reasonable debate.
A lot of what I see in these threads is attempts to elicit an aggressive response; it's not debate, it's goading.
How can we expect humanity to adopt a path of global non aggression when we can't even maintain a peaceful internet forum thread discussion?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:you know perfectly well that Ray does not consider himself to be part of a global oppressioni'd have to recommend leaving the army in that case... he is kinda signed up to it.

but anyhows, this is waaaaaaaaaaay off topic now...


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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:I wanted to major in global oppression, but they didn't offer that course of study where I went to University.

Raph


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