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StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Ever wondering Y the best equipped military force in history does so poorly in battle, and shoots all its allies???

Well I did, and now I know. They’re all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .

If U don’t believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.

SBS TV Extract
quote:
When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.

This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Arrrr, khat-mint
That explains a lot hehheheh

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone:
Ray, I believe in the teachings of Christ and follow the commandment that says “thou shalt not kill”. So do you, in your capacity as a US Marine in a war situation, murder people or kill people? Either way, it’s goes against the teachings of Christ, no matter what your military Chaplin says.
jumping right back on track and ignoring the catnip and the albatross.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
In my own belief (though it is cute how people like to try to use my own beliefs against me) I believe that there is a difference between murder and killing?

If you cant agree or understand that dont ask me to explain it, I am not going to defend myself against 40 people. Sorry get your kicks somewhere else.

Sorry you get tired of always being on defence just because yall dont agree with me or you dont like what my government does. You all look for the negitive that someone does, never for the positive. Hell you even find fault in Seasime Street!

You know sometimes I deserve what I get, but I aint gonna step into this one.


Personally I dont like the idea of military chaplans. I dont like them, because they are not allowed to preach one religion.

Before you say anything let me explain why I say this.

Most units and I can only speek for the Corps but most units have 1 or 2 chaplins. These people belong to the higher headquarters. So those two Chaplins cover about 400-500 personel. There is no way that they can be fair to all the personel if they preach only one religion.

They may have times when a Wicca Marine has to see a chaplan and it is a Catholic chaplin.

It doesnt matter that the Chaplin is Catholic he has to support the Marine with that Marine's sence of morals despite his own beliefs.

I personally believe that as a Christian one should share their faith. He cant do that, without violating that Marine's rights. This causes conflict in my own heart and mind. I cant really explain this nor do I even imagine that you would understand. If you do cool... if you dont, ohh well.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
ray - no-one is trying to use your beliefs against you here dude

the fact is, you said the world is black and white and then stone pointed out a major grey area in your world view.

"thou shalt not kill" - that statement applies in a world that is black and white.

"there is a difference between murder and killing" - that statement applies in a world with many shades of grey.

quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
The world is black and white, only those who wish to do harm try to see it as grey.
maybe you explained yourself sufficiently here though - i would challenge anyone to define killing or murder as actions that do not cause harm so i guess you have already admitted that in this case, you see the world as grey...?

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

If you dont understand, sit down and think about it, dont expect me to justify myself to you.

quote:
ray - no-one is trying to use your beliefs against you here dude
It may or may not have been his intent, but he did it none the less.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frequently it goes from descussion to Everyone Against Raymund.

That is just something that I am going to try to avoid from now on.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
It is also possible that my views are just differnt from others and that right and wrong have nothing to do with it.

Frosty, you really know nothing about me man. You have seen me on a few topics that I feel very strong about. You cant be expected to know me, so please dont think I am saying this in a condencending tone.


What I am right or wrong about doesnt matter, opinions are a right for everyone, perhaps you should just understand that mine and yours differ on some topics and get over it.


I have made my peace with you, if you wish to continue the pissing contest go right ahead it can only make you look bad.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Why do I have to question mine, why dont you question yours for a change?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
And you think that I havnt changed due to past discussions? You've been here 5 minutes man you think you know me? Please!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

If you dont understand, sit down and think about it, dont expect me to justify myself to you.

i don't understand ray.
so i sat down and thought about it like you said.
and i just came up with the same question.

compare the bible's "thou shalt not kill" with your "killing is not wrong" and i see a huge conflict.
for someone that takes the word of the bible as the word of god i fail again to see how you do not consider this as an example of you yourself (to paraphrase you here if i may) 'making the world grey in order that they may cause harm'.

this may not be the best place to discuss this (we've been here before dude ).
i think my pm box has space now if you'd like to send me what you mentioned you'd started preparing last time we talked about this.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Coleman, I believe the Commandment is Do not Murder. If you believe it is something differnt, thats for you to decide. Why dont you stop trying to turn everything I say against me?

Like I said before, I'm not going to justify myself to yall anymore. I have repeatedly lain my life down like an open book and gotten nothing but ridicule for my religion, my job, my family, my very life and I will not subject myself to it further.

[ 05. September 2003, 03:18: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
i am not ridiculing you ray.

i was interested in the conflict i saw between someone who is so passionate about their religion yet has dedicated their life to an organisation that is at its heart, a killing machine (and that's not being over the top - its the only way to describe a group of people who can only belong if they are a basic rifleman and have hand to hand combat training, just in case they are at some point required to go and kill).

but now i get it.

in all the bibles i've ever read or studied it says: exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill".

in some bibles updated in the last century (like the niv for example), it says something like:
exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

so then, what exactly IS murder...?!

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
decide for yourself and be true to that

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
that's a bit bit subjective innit?

sounds a bit like 'do what thou wilt' to me...
ever heard of a bloke called aleister crowley ray?

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, why are you filled with so much hate?

I said I wasnt going to explain it, just open your mind and try to see things from my point of view.

I am sure you are all smart enough to do that, after all, you expect me to do it at the drop of a hat.

If you just cant seem to understand then poo on you, try not to be so damn judgmental.

No Coleman, it isnt do what thou wilt, it is make up your mind about what murder is and then follow it.

However do what ever you want, you will reap the rewards eventually.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
quote:
Frequently it goes from discussion to Everyone Against Raymund.
Ray, there was no malice intended, but IMHO, it goes more like Raymund Against Everyone else. I thought u liked the discussions; apologies for hurting your feelings

Dunno if u mean me, but yeah I have trouble with the US Military being involved with the production of a children’s show; think about it.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
However do what ever you want, you will reap the rewards eventually.
in your humble opinion of course, right ray...?

imho: i personally see no difference between killing a human being and 'murder'.
in the eyes of the law, there are degrees to murder as well, technicalities which reduce murder to manslaughter and so and so on.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
quote:
I said I wasnt going to explain it, just open your mind and try to see things from my point of view.

Raymund...This is a joke surely.

how can you expect people to see thigns from your point of view if you don't explain it?

Perhaps this does explain why you seem to get aggressive quickly when people pointout their own points of view.

To see something from a different point of view REQUIRES understanding, you can't just say to think this way coz i said so, that's no the way people work.

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Charles, I am not going to debate my faith or my priciples nor will I continue to subject myself to someone elses judgment.

Coleman, yes in my ohh so humble opinion. You dont have to agree with me thats cool.

Stone, thats cool man, you dont have to like the US military sponsoring childrens shows. We sponsor childrens activities on base, what is wrong with sponsoring a TV show?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
So you're saying that planned parenting cant have anything to do with keeping your child healthy?

Frosty, you have no heart man.

You see a gun and think of nothing but killing and murder, I see a gun and see responsibility in one of its ultimate forms. The second greatest power in the world is to have the power to kill and then show mercy. The greatest is to bring a life into this world.


Though that isnt the point.

The point is, is that with one hand you can destroy and with the same hand you can create. There is nothing wrong with this.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
(Takes off his moderators cap)

Raymund, that is just plain scary that you think like that!

Pretty much every person in the world has the ability to kill another person. There is nothing special or powerful about that at all.

In fact, as it's pretty much average and boring, cause there are so few exceptions.

Being in a position where your decision can see someone live or die, such as a judge presiding over a murder trial, is a big responsibility.

But don't for second think that no-one else has that sort of resposibility.

We all do...failing using implements, we can even strangle one another, or break their necks, or a million other horrible gruesome things.

In fact, it might pay to think long and hard about what i've just said, and perhaps try to come across as a more postive person.

I'm just thinking of how many people on HoP, all with the power to kill, aren't particularly happy with you...

But then again, that's not a very moderatish thing to say now is it?

To me, the greastest power in the world is to make a positve change in someone elses life without affecting anyone els in a negative way. And the saddest point is when a opportunity like that is overlooked...

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, I dont see violence as a great thing, dont pretend to know me, you dont.


A possible definition of mercy is, having the ability to kill and then not.

I dont see that as scary.

I dont have a positive or negitive outlook on life, I have a realistic outlook.

The reality of life, is that there is some terrible things out there. People who rape and murder with out thought or care of anyone else in the world. People who take advantage of the elderly and infirmed. Doctors who prescribe the wrong medicine resulting in a patients death, people being beaten by prison guards. People taking photos of little kids.


Are you trying to hide from this? Me I have taken a stand against it, yet I am seen as a totaitarisim, right winged, homophobic, warmongering racist pig.


Sorry Chuck, that aint me.

I know what happens in the world, and I am here to fight it. I swore and oath to protect the people of the United States from all enimies both forigne and domestic. It doesnt matter if it is and army or a dirty old man with a camera! However on a more personal level I will aid any in need, reguardless of who they are, where they are from, what color or religion they are.


You think I am worrid about a name on the net being angry with me? Odds of them doing anything are about 1 million to 1, I am more worried about the guy with an AK-47 and a grudge against me just because I am American.

You're wrong though, normal people dont have the ability to kill/murder another human.

Unfortuntaly man is greedy, you cant lift someone up with out pissing off someone else.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Thank you

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


poiaholic22member
531 posts

Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.
Ray I totally understand that that is your opinion and I'm not gonna ask you to justify it or change it but what I would be grateful of is if you could expound on the difference between the two.

Like yourself I have my own opinion on the subject and it makes it difficult for me to understand yours.I'm not trying to start an argument I am just intrigued.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
According to my dictionary, to kill is to take life, and to murder is to take life illegaly.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Onewheeldave, you're pretty close to how I view the two.


Thank you for asking like that Poiaholic. You have shown me respect, so I will do likewise and return the favor with your answer.


If there is an unavoidable accident, granted it is technically your fault, and someone dies, did you violate one of the 10 commandments? No, it was an accident.

Murder however, is done out of malice, it done because somehow somewhere the person stops caring for the life of another and for themselves. Whatever motive they contrive, doesnt matter.

In my definition and in my opinion it is what is in the heart that makes you a murderer.

I believe that the commandment is do not murder, because later in the Bible you will read that Jesus says the two greatest commandments. The first being, To love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind body and streangth, and the second is to love your neigbor as yourself.

If I kill in the line of duty, I kill because of love for my fellow neighbor, not out of malice. I kill because there is no other option left for me to use.


Is this everyones view, no it isnt but thats life.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


MoohaahaaBRONZE Member
enthusiast
382 posts
Location: In Ger Land, India


Posted:
War On Drugs

I though this was going to be a nice light-hearted topic about a silly idea loads of governments have about taking away peoples personal choices.

I just wanted everyone to now I would take responsibility of all the POW's.



Sorry to lighten the mood in here.
Go get serious again

Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.


diabodandymember
3 posts
Location: Dallas


Posted:
I can understand Raymonds p.o.v.
Reality sux... and the reality of life is that without Ray over there disgusting you with his practical approach to life while simulteneously doing his job, you would probably not have nearly as content a life. You wouldn't be able to spout your ideals about how the world "should" be. Sure.. I agree that it SHOULD be all roses and blue skys and neighbors really would help each other instead of harm each other. But that's just now how it is. So until everybody else out there decides to follow suit on that world peace thing. I'm happy he's protecting me and mine from the bad things that can harm us.
Do you eat meat? wear leather shoes or coats?
for that matter do you walk in grass? do you know how many beings you are killing when you take a stroll through the grass? How are you ever going to sleep at night now knowing that you've killed?
And as far as your quote of mr. Crowly goes... he also said "choose ye an island! Fortify it! Dung it about with enginery of war!" "With it ye shall smite the peoples; and none shall stand before you." yeah.. he was a way peaceful man.

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
my quote of crowley was in jest (hence the ).

but it did have some relevance at least.
yours is completely out of context.
if you know crowley, you know that his words are often written under an abrasive and violent veil.
if you take his writings at face value there is little cohesion but you will find metaphors that fit consitently throughout.

like he said himself, do what thou wilt - make up your own mind and if you choose to dismiss it, from your standpoint, you will lose nothing.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, where did you get the idea that Sadam was after the world? The military isnt here just for that. A person with a weapon isnt ones only enimy.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


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