• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > U.S. says Canada cares too much about liberties!

Login/Join to Participate

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:http://canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=78a2260b-4770-4682-be60-e6fe1d3b8144
br>
quote:
U.S. says Canada cares too much about liberties
Terrorism report also says too little spent on police

Jim Bronskill, with files from Janice Tibbetts

The Ottawa Citizen

Thursday, May 01, 2003

The United States says the lack of funding for police and restrictive privacy legislation in Canada are frustrating probes of political extremists.
The comments in an annual report on international terrorism were the latest critical remarks from the U.S. apparently aimed at prodding Canada to bring its security measures in line.
The State Department report on global terrorism for 2002 suggests that while Canada has been helpful in the fight against terrorism, it doesn't spend enough on policing and places too much emphasis on civil liberties.
It says "some U.S. law enforcement officers have expressed concern" about Canadian privacy laws.
The U.S. officers feel those laws, as well as funding levels for law enforcement, "inhibit a fuller and more timely exchange of information and response to requests for assistance," the report says.
"Also, Canadian laws and regulations intended to protect Canadian citizens and landed immigrants from government intrusion sometimes limit the depth of investigations."
Under the U.S.-Canada Terrorist Interdiction Program, known as TIP, Canada records about one "hit" of known or suspected terrorists a week from the State Department's visa lookout list. The initiative involves software that enhances the ability of border officials to collect, compare and analyse traveller data, allowing them to identify and track people of interest.
Spokesmen for the Solicitor General's Department were not available to comment on the report.
The U.S. observations come amid heightened tension between the two countries following Washington's public expression of disappointment that Canadian forces did not join the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
In releasing the report, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said although there has been great progress in the last year, terrorism still "casts its grim shadow" across the globe.
The number of terrorist attacks dropped to 199 in 2002 from 355 the previous year. Still, Mr. Powell noted, assaults occurred in every region of the world, claiming 725 lives. Terrorist bombings in Bali last fall killed about 200 people from two dozen countries, including Canada.
Despite the report's criticism of certain Canadian practices, it included effusive praise for the federal government's overall efforts to work with the U.S. in the fight against extrem-ism, calling the relationship "a model for bilateral co-operation on counter-terrorism issues."
Seven American law-enforcement agencies have posted officers to Ottawa and other Canadian cities, while a number of Canadian personnel are assigned to the U.S.
The report also notes Canada's passage of anti-terrorism legislation, its move to create a formal list of terrorist organizations and participation in various international anti-crime forums.
The comments follow State Department remarks in a March report on narcotics and money laundering that urged Canada to ensure privacy protection measures do not prevent the timely sharing of financial information that might be critical to police investigations.
The same report took issue with Canada's move to make possession of small amounts of marijuana a ticketing offence rather than a criminal one. "This will not only harm Canadian society, but have consequences for the United States as well," the report said.
Justice Minister Martin Cauchon reiterated yesterday that legislation to decriminalize marijuana will be tabled soon, while Canadian Alliance Leader Stephen Harper said the move would inflame tensions with the U.S.
"Now would not be the time to irritate trade relations and we've already had plenty of warning that this would do just that."


Delete Topic

Ro
member
Location: Kamloops, B.C, Canada
Member Since: 3rd May 2003
Total posts: 57
Posted:Well... It's a touchy subject terrorism, and having the means to deal with it... I for one don't want all my civial liberties to be taken away and have big brother watching over my shoulder like in the Novel 1984.

Just look at this instance before you decide to give away your civial liberaties. that night club fire that killed about 80 people in the states wasn't a terrorist act. It was an unfortunate incident that could have been prevented, but not a terrorist act. Then ask yourself this question "what if it had been? would you feel differently?" I think most people would say yes.

as soon as you lable an incident "terroism" there seems to be an out pour of people wanting to beef up security.

The fact of the matter is that terrorist acts can and will occur. Now the test is to say what is an acceptable security measure and what is not... I don't believe in Racial profiling or keeping survelliance on everyone...

There's other ways to fight terroism that this... For one, improving foreigh policies could help. Fighting poverty is another... If we give people hope, and get rid of the need for people to take extremist measures, maybe we'll have less terroist acts.

Of course They're will always be that dark shadow in the alley, or that guy that just snaps... But having terroist nations and organizations is a different matter... Yes we have to do something. Police are the front lines of this war, and maybe re-training and retooling them is the best course of action so they can deal with any threats.

basically it's being prepared without getting parinoid in the end.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance my friends, just make sure there's freedom there in the first place to protect.


Delete

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I think the key to preventing terrorism is not pissing people off. I know this article pissed me off quite a bit. Especially this "This will not only harm Canadian society, but have consequences for the United States as well,"

Thank you so much for looking out for our society. It's unfortunate our clunky parlimentary system and stupid voters are inable to look out for our own intesters. It sure is good we have good old united states to look out for our well being.


Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:It pisses me off because the US is using the so-called "free trade" between the two countries as a tool to threaten Canada with. Meanwhile the US have imposed illegal (according to WTO) tariffs on Canadian lumber and wheat and don't seem to have any intentions of lifting them. And yet with these tarrifs that are supposed to help their economy and have threaten the jobs thousand of canadians, the US economy is at it's lowest while ours is raising. Today our dollar, the euro, Australian dollar, and the peso are just some of the currencies that rose to it's highest against the U.S dollar.
And as far the the decriminalization of marijuana I think it's about time we progress with the rest of the world. By looking at the US model for drug prevention it's obvious locking people up doesn't help. Everywhere that has decriminalized or legalized pot has experience decrease in crime, less tax dollars spent of minor drug offence trials so as a soverign country it's our right to do what we feel is best for our citizen. How about the US do something about all the herion that comes over to Canada?
quote: For one, improving foreigh policies could help. Fighting poverty is another... If we give people hope, and get rid of the need for people to take extremist measures, maybe we'll have less terroist acts.
Great point. In Africa right now over 8000 people die per day because of AIDS. Ten percent of the world's people live in Africa, but it is home to 90 percent of the world's HIV-infected children. More than 5.5 million children in eastern and southern Africa, at the epicenter of the epidemic, have lost their mothers or both parents to AIDS. AIDS orphans consequently need to drop out of school to care for a dying parent or to care and provide for younger siblings. During the World Summit Canada was pushing for more aid to help contain this epidemic but because of the "war on terrorism" it was put off. People in Africa are being forgotten by the rest of the world and leaving their children to live in poverty with inadequet health care. So what happens as they grow up with no hope and learn of how noone made an effort to help them?


Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:It saddens me that the country where I was born has sunk to the level of being a bunch of sniveling cowards who put "security" above freedom.

What ever happened to "LIVE FREE OR DIE"?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:lightning- i think it died!
nothing intended but a light pun, i don't really know much about the relations between the two- however I fear a society such as the one portrayed in 1982.


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

Delete

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:1984?

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ladies and Germs, like Canadian Guy said, there is a fine line between imposing on liberties and keeping an eye out for trouble.

I saw a tape, ohh about 4 or 5 months ago, it was a terrorist's survailance tape of an area where US Sailors met before driving to their ship. I forget the country but I believe it was Singapore, dont quote me there though.

How much money do you want to bet, that right now at almost every US military instalation that there is servailance going on there that is intended for harm rather than good? I'll put all my pay from today untill I die on the line.

Terrorisim is a very real threat, not just to the US but to many if not every country. So, there will always be a guy who snaps and takes a college hostage or shoots up a school, but there will also be people who are more organised who can do things like 9/11 and the Tokyo bombings, the bombings in Ireland and Britten.

This doesnt just effect one country but many.

Ever see the movie, The Jackel? I mean yes it is a movie, but how lagitamate is that, sailing accross from Canada and attacking someone in the US? Hell even Mexico to the US. I am not saying that the US was right in telling the Canadians off, but if you think there is a hole somewhere, do you not try to streangthen that area or patch it somehow?


Mike, it saddens me that my country is turning into a bunch of drugged out twits who think freedome is bought with a can of cream corn!


If the US were to make international ties strong, what order do you recomend?

If we were to feed the world, what country should be first?

Now what country would be last?

Do you not think that the people in the last country would be pissed off, say maybe be pissed off enough to do somthing to get even for being last?

You cant feed the world all at once, sombody has to be last and sombody will be angry about it.


Your damned if you do, and your damned if you dont.

Will you send the military to protect food shipments? Or just let local war loards take controle like in Somalia? If you send in the military, how will you prevent them from being seen as a occupying force?

Yes the answers to lifes problems come real easy sitting at the computer screen, but your going to have to think bout things. For those who have yet to see the real world, there is a such thing as practical application. Take your idea, and try to figure out how it would be accomplished. I mean down to the last minute detail.

This my friends is called having a logistacal plan.

Before you tell us your plan for world peace, try my suggestion and then see how much sence it really makes.

Ideas are good, plans are better!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:true ray, but wouldn't you say that going against the UN was a big step away from international co-operation and thus a step back on the road to stopping terrorism?

Astar, 1984=fantastic book by george orwell, its where the idea of big brother came from- a government entity spying and controling the population. Found quite a good synopsis of it on the net here . Whatever your views, the book is well worth it and fantastically written.


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

Delete

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I read it . I was just correcting you because you said 1982.

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:You know, when I was in highschool, I used to skate. Loved it, I hung out at the park pretty much any chance I got. At lunch after school, I mean it was 1 of 4 places I ever was. We always used to get angry about the cops always hanging around, as if they were waiting for something to happen.

I look back on things and now understand why the cops were always there, because whenever they wernt something bad was always happening.

You see, we gave them a reason to be there.

The way I look at things, if you dont give somebody a reason to watch you then they wont.

It isnt worth the cost to put tabs on everybody in the US. Trust me, I work for those penny pinchers. The US hates to spend money especially if they think it might be wasted.

If you dont want the DEA at your door, dont have drugs there, dont have illeagle explosives and firearms.

If you dont want the FBI or whoever spying on you dont give them the reason, they may watch you but if they have no reason too, they will loose intrest fast!


So tell me something, if the homeland security act prevents your childs school from being bombed, will you be happy about the inconvinece?

Would you curse the corrupt politicians or send them a nice little thankyou letter?

What if the much debated RAVE act, saves a life? Will you curse it or praise it?


Is your right to spin glowsticks at a club worth the cost of a life?

Do you have to go to a club to spin glowstics? No hell no, hell I go outside my barracks and spin, I am sure you can get your buds together and go spin if you wish. Hell bring a CD player and have your own damn music!


You dont need drugs to have fun

You dont need to be a club to have fun

You dont need to have glowsticks at a club to have fun


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

ivan..
ivan..

member
Location: Halifax, NS
Member Since: 12th Oct 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted:Canada is not now and never has been an annex of the USA.. and the only time they tried to annex us we smacked them all the way home and then torched the whitehouse.

The USA would not allow another country to make rules for them... And yet they want to make rules for the Canadian people.. how fair is that?

The " Fight against Terrorism " is real but it is no excuse to have the civil liberties of a free nation suspended. Vigilance is required but not Fascism. Canadian troupes have always played a vital role in the UN sanctioned actions against terrorism and continue to be a force of peace in this world.

and that makes me glad that i am canadian

the decisions of the worlds nations should be made by the worlds nations not one nation this is the primary gripe ..

I think that each nation would like to have the right to government and police itself without the interference of a different nation .

Canada/US relations are important to both nations however, no relationship is worth giving up your rights on a personal level or on a global level.


thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !

Delete

King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:doh!
my mistake!
obviously too much revision and not enough attention to my posts!

Ben


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:The Rave Act targets promoters, instead why not concentrate on trafficers if you are interested in saving a life. Why not allow harm reduction organization in your event? I was a co-founder of one in Alberta and we got massive good feedback from cops, paramedics, party goers, promoters, parents, ect .
To you say don't need to go to a club to have fun is beside the point. Of course you don't need to but why shouldn't you have the right to without getting hassled. I don't need to go for a walk but I think I have the right too without being video tape at every corner I turn.

quote: isnt worth the cost to put tabs on everybody in the US. Trust me, I work for those penny pinchers. The US hates to spend money especially if they think it might be wasted.
Ever heard of Echelon?
"In the greatest surveillance effort ever established, the US National Security Agency (NSA) has created a global spy system, codename ECHELON, which captures and analyzes virtually every phone call, fax, email and telex message sent anywhere in the world. ECHELON is controlled by the NSA and is operated in conjunction with the Government Communications Head Quarters (GCHQ) of England, the Communications Security Establishment (CSE) of Canada, the Australian Defense Security Directorate (DSD), and the General Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) of New Zealand. These organizations are bound together under a secret 1948 agreement, UKUSA, whose terms and text remain under wraps even today."
Where's the freedom? "Land of the free"...oh but you can't do this and go there because we are trying to protect you from yourself, you know incase you hurt yourself or someone else.
Canada makes decision for Canadians not Americans. My problems is being pressured by the US government to pass laws that benefits the US. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.


Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:The US isnt making the rules, but what it is doing is telling the Canadians that they feel the Canadian security is at best lax.


I am still waiting for sombody to answer my questions.

And I have never heard of Echalon, where is your link or where did you learn of this great super computer? Off the movie "Enimy of the State"?

It sounds to sci-fi to me.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

ivan..
ivan..

member
Location: Halifax, NS
Member Since: 12th Oct 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted:most people believe that the right to life is one of the most important rights humans have,

suggesting that freedom of choice will automatically allow schools to be bombed , currupt officials to run rampant, and raves to turn into blood baths with toxic glow sticks cutting a swath of death and destruction .....is a little far fetched... and the only way to have a safe neighbourhood is not to lock all the neighbours up.

in Prison everyone is watched constantly, they are locked into their homes at night .. their homes are searched regularly, they are told when to eat when to sleep when to shower when to work and when to have fun ... almost every aspect of their life is monitored/controlled ....

rape, drugs, murder and all sorts of illegal things happen in a prison...

if bad people want to do bad things they will...no matter who watches them

" what good are laws? good people don't need them and bad people don't follow them"

so stripping away a persons civil liberties under the pretense of making the community a safer place is not an accurate argument

it makes as much sense to argue....
"9 pm curfew for everyone .... it will save lives!"

"cars should be made illegal.. it will save lives!"

"the military should stop using guns .. it will save lives!"

"people with mental disorders should be sterilised.. it will save lives!"

"THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!"

none of those arguments make any sense either.


as time and technology progress we are getting closer and closer to the vision of orwell's 1984, instant face recognition, the information strip on the back of any official card ( license , health card, s.i.n. card) and the level that information can be accessed through any computer all lend to the ability to strip a persons personal life away.

i don't know if the concept of a world wide conspiracy is something i will believe in right now .. however if you are a memebr of the SCA and have crossed the Canadian/American border then there is a file on you somewhere... ( and how is this organisation dangerous WWW.SCA.ORG )

common sense used to be common
now fear tactics and terror threats are waved every time someone is about to get their rights crushed.

i like the idea of a military and a police presence and i know that there are times when the only response to a situation is a physical solution, but i don't like the idea of our defenders being turned into a weapon of fear against the people and i'm sure that if you talked with a cop or a soldier they wouldn't like that either ( that is if they have a brain in their head )

pax,
pax ab bello

ivan


thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !

Delete

Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I would be willing to die if it meant upholding the basic civil liberties that are necesary for a democracy to function and to keep the govermnet from getting out of control. Comeon ray your ancestors died for their freedomes (More for the money a few aristocrats could make by eliminating trade tariff's but tha'ts beside the point) Are you willing to sacrifice everything they did to fight terrorism? I would say the moment canadians and americans began forfeiting their freedomes the terrorists have already won.

The palestinians in israel have no freedoms and they are being closely monitored every step they make. Israel has more experience in counter-terrorism and intelligence gathering then any other nation on earth. They have funding, equipment and manpower from the US and britain and they still cannot prevent daily suicide bombings. They never will be able to.

What makes you think sacrificing the constitution will solve anything? Maybe it will save a few lives but at what cost? I think it is terrible arrogance and naivity to think that someone can't rise to power and absolutly abuse the patriot and rave act.

People never seem to care about long term consequences all they want is a leader who can make the trains come on time and stop the criminals. The italians sure got that when they elected musilini. The germans got it when they elected hitler. Maybe bush isn't comparable to hitler. I don't think he is. But who's to say the next guy in office doesn't suspend the rest of the constitution, cancel elections and declare himself the head of state untill things get "sorted out". All he has to do is blow up a few thousand people and the general populace wont blink an eye when he transforms america from a democracy to fascist dictatorship overnight. Because all they can think about is saving lives.

BTW america isn't makeing the rules for canada but I gurantee they will violate the free trade agreement and start ****ing us over economicaly untill we comply. Canada has no guts in these issues and we will comply as sad as that is.


Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:Ray why dont you use your search engine and type in Echelon otherwise known as SIGINT?
First time I heard of Echelon was in Popular Science. The director of Australia's Defence Signals Directorate acknowledged the existence of the agreement. National Security Agency, Air Force Lt. Gen. Hayden and CIA Director Tenet were questioned about the so-called "Echelon Project," said to be a joint satellite surveillance project among the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
Ray I don't appreciate you talking to me like I am some sci-fi nut job. I wouldn't have brought this up if unless I knew that it exist. Sorry that you haven't heard of it, maybe you should pay more attention to what your intelligence agencies do, but take the time to look things up before you comment.

Here are some articles..
New York times 1999
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27network.html
br>
CNN 2000
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/04/12/spies.speak/index.html
br>
The Guardian 2000
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/04/12/spies.speak/index.html
br>
BBC 2000
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/670092.stm
br>
I chose articles from well known news groups, if you want more articles let me know.

And from the CIA website...
Statement by Director of Central Intelligence
George J. Tenet Before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/archives/2000/dci_speech_041200.html
br>
Although the intelligence agency are saying they conduct "its activities in accordance with US law and due regard for the rights of Americans" because it's a secret operation who to say weather they are or aren't. They do not need to " publicly reveal sensitive details about their operations." I am quoteing the CIA statement.

Why is it so hard to think something like this exist? Technology is moving so fast. Computers are getting smaller, faster, and becoming obsolete in 4 months. You don't think that the world secret agencies (NSA-US, CIA-US, Mossad-Isreal, GCHQ-Britian, CSIS-Canada) have vested interest in having the world top technology at hand.


Delete

Ro
member
Location: Kamloops, B.C, Canada
Member Since: 3rd May 2003
Total posts: 57
Posted:I don't expect the U.S to solve all the food shortages in the world. That's impossible... But we can start to make steps towards fighting poverty... Something I think is way more imporant that terrorism. If you wanna talk about saving lives then start thinking about the other two-thirds of the world.

There are the haves, and the have-nots my friends. We live in the first world, and unfortunately most people live in the third world... The impoverished, and under-developed kind. I consider myself VERY lucky, and I think all of us typing on these computers should too.

Maybe we should take a closer look at these countries... Usually They don't have rights to freedom of speech, or thought.There's not such thing as "voting" or "choosing a political candidate". They either live in a dictatorship, or worse... In a constant war torn land.

now wouldn't that suck if you didn't have those rights? If you didn't have any hope at al?. That what you felt and thought wasn't worth a damn?

I'm glad I live in Canada. And I for one hope we keep our rights, and not throw them away because other people are parinoid or want us to change.


Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I know what rights I have, and I know what I would do to keep them. Please do not tell me what anybody did for me because I know all too well.

I dont know all the facts about everything in the world. I also dont pretend to.

These programs that you are all so scared of have not hurt you in the least of ways. Have any of you been arrested due to what you said?

I think your making too big a deal out of nothing.

Astar, man dude, you would be willing to die for your civil rights, but you wouldnt be willing to do that for sombody else?

If your willing to do that, why dont you just join the military?

Why should any country allow trade from another country that hurt its econimy?

Ever hear the phrase, "Buy American made"?

Personally I believe that if you want to do business with a forgine country you should have to make ammends for taking away from that countries econimy. Via terrifs and taxes.

If you want to sell your lumber in country B then country B has every right to chrage you $1,000 for every board that you bring in. Hell your paying for the privledge of selling your goods, your making money off of country B's people.

Tika I would take Sci-Fi nut job as a compliment, sorry I have better things to do with my time than watch every move the CIA makes and form conspircy theorys with my buds. Sorry that doesnt entertain me. Feel free too though, I wont try to sway your mind either way.

Canadian Guy, please come up with a plan to end poverty, that wont piss anybody off. If you can do that I will do my damndest to follow it up.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:
Is your right to spin glowsticks at a club worth the cost of a life?

Do you have to go to a club to spin glowstics? No hell no, hell I go outside my barracks and spin, I am sure you can get your buds together and go spin if you wish. Hell bring a CD player and have your own damn music!


You dont need drugs to have fun

You dont need to be a club to have fun

You dont need to have glowsticks at a club to have fun Ray, how is spinning glowsticks putting anyone's life in danger?

You know what scares me? You claim to be out fighting to protect my freedom, but what you just said is that you don't care if it gets taken away, as long as it saves a life.

And that's one of the reasons I'm not going to live in the U.S.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:First off weather you believe me or not I could care less. I personally don't sit around and watch for things CIA, NSA do. However, I do read and watch the news which is where I heard this story first. I posted a link to a statement from the Head of the CIA. If it was just a "theory" I really don't think he would waste his time adressing it. You asked for links and I gave them you quite a few. Don't ask if you aren't going to take the time to check them out.

quote: Why should any country allow trade from another country that hurt its econimy?
Because between the 2 countries there is an agreement called NAFTA which allows the "free trade" of goods between, Canada, US and Mexico. According to the WTO, who handle trade disputes, has said it's illegal to put tarrif which have cost thousand of Canadians their jobs and in turn hurts our economy. Shouldn't both countries have the responsiblity to eachother to uphold agreements? It's like making a promise one day and the next break it because it doesn't blend well with your day.
quote:Ever hear the phrase, "Buy American made"?
I live in Canada so no I have never heard that.

quote:Canadian Guy, please come up with a plan to end poverty, that wont piss anybody off. If you can do that I will do my damndest to follow it up.
So because you might piss someone off you should do nothing and piss everyone off? That makes no sense. Even a little help is very appreiated by third world countries, giving some opportunity to get back on their feet. Even as individuals taking the time to learn about what the people are going through and trying to help other individuals in small ways goes a long way.
I moved to Canada when I was 10 from El Salvador. I was living in a war torn country, seeing family members shot, sometimes hiding because guerillas would kidnap children, hearing and seeing how the death squads would torture people. I know what's it's like to live in fear and I wouldn't go back to that feeling. Moving here I have opportunities and freedoms I otherwise wouldn't so there's no way I would throw that away. It seems hypocritical to go fight to defend your freedoms when back home they are slowly being taken away.


Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:First off weather you believe me or not I could care less. I personally don't sit around and watch for things CIA, NSA do. However, I do read and watch the news which is where I heard this story first. I posted a link to a statement from the Head of the CIA. If it was just a "theory" I really don't think he would waste his time adressing it. You asked for links and I gave them you quite a few. Don't ask if you aren't going to take the time to check them out.

quote: Why should any country allow trade from another country that hurt its econimy?
Because between the 2 countries there is an agreement called NAFTA which allows the "free trade" of goods between, Canada, US and Mexico. According to the WTO, who handle trade disputes, has said it's illegal to put tarrif which have cost thousand of Canadians their jobs and in turn hurts our economy. Shouldn't both countries have the responsiblity to eachother to uphold agreements? It's like making a promise one day and the next break it because it doesn't blend well with your day.
quote:Ever hear the phrase, "Buy American made"?
I live in Canada so no I have never heard that.

quote:Canadian Guy, please come up with a plan to end poverty, that wont piss anybody off. If you can do that I will do my damndest to follow it up.
So because you might piss someone off you should do nothing and piss everyone off? That makes no sense. Even a little help is very appreiated by third world countries, giving some opportunity to get back on their feet. Even as individuals taking the time to learn about what the people are going through and trying to help other individuals in small ways goes a long way.
I moved to Canada when I was 10 from El Salvador. I was living in a war torn country, seeing family members shot, sometimes hiding because guerillas would kidnap children, hearing and seeing how the death squads would torture people. I know what's it's like to live in fear and I wouldn't go back to that feeling. Moving here I have opportunities and freedoms I otherwise wouldn't so there's no way I would throw that away. It seems hypocritical to go fight to defend your freedoms when back home they are slowly being taken away.


Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Your missing my point on alot of things, actually your whole post missed my point.

I believe you when you say Echalon exists. I didnt before, but I do now. I dont really have the time to check your posts as my time on the computer is limited.

Secondly, I was talking about every country not the US and Canada in particuler.

Theird, If I help Country A with their poverty, either by giving them money or some other form of aid, I might piss off Country B. That is breeding a possibility for some sort of jelous reaction. Be it an attack on Country A or my country.

I am asking him to come up with a full plan. Just saying "The government should do this...." is fool hardy and wrong. It is easy to say but if he were to think out an actual plan he would quickly realsise that it isnt as easy as it sounds.

You cant lift someone up with out pissing someone else off. It is called greed and every human myself included suffers from greed of some sort.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:quote:Secondly, I was talking about every country not the US and Canada in particuler.

When your example mentioned tarrifs and lumber trade disputes and the orginal post was about US/Canada relations you can see why I used NAFTA as an example. I don't know what the details of every countries trade agreements are but a law abiding country (whatever country that may be) should not dishonour those agreements just because they feel like it. Both countries have a responsibility to eachother to repect that.

quote:Theird, If I help Country A with their poverty, either by giving them money or some other form of aid, I might piss off Country B. That is breeding a possibility for some sort of jelous reaction. Be it an attack on Country A or my country. I got your point the first which is why I asked "So because you might piss someone off you should do nothing and piss everyone off?" What would you do? I think that people around the world expect that you save everyone but working with existing organization and listening to the international community is a good start.

quote:You cant lift someone up with out pissing someone else off. It is called greed and every human myself included suffers from greed of some sort.
This I don't understand at all. I always thought greed was the need to posses more then you needed or required.


Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:I need to correct something in my pervious post when I said "I think that people around the world expect that you save everyone..." I meant to say "I don't think that people around the world expect that you save everyone..."

Delete

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Tika, I dont know what people around the world think, but I might know a thing or two about human reactions.

If your on a cruise and the ship starts to sink so of course everybody gets off the boat. Say for some stupid reason you and say half the boat dont get in lifeboats, but instead jump ship. The lifeboats start comming around and picking people up.

Would you not expect them to pick you up as well? Would you be angry if they went past you to pick somebody else up? If it seemed that they wernt going to pick you up, would you not get angry?

I would answer yes to all three questions.

What would you answer?

Now upgrade that to a global scale... do you think a country could get angry enough to do something drastic? Do you think a group of people could do something drastic?

I do. And that is why you must be very very carefull when rendering aid.

I have no plan to help people on a world scale but then again I dont think I have the knowlege that it would take to do such a thing.


Yes countries should honor all treaties, are you going to start protesting N. Korea for violating its treaty with the US about nukes? If I may be blunt, I doubt you would waste a second of thought when the US is such an easy target to complain about.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Delete

Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:Speaking as a person who has lived in third world poverty, I would rather have some help then no help. My point is that you can't not help a country because another might get jealous. That to me looks worse than helping a little.
As far as I know the Bush adminstration has said they are pulling out of any ballistic missile treaty and or nuclear proliferation it has with anyone. Of course, I care N. Korea has nukes if they decide to use them the northwest would be it's closest target not only effecting the US but Canada as well.
Ray, if you go back to the very first post this thread started as a Canada/US discussion which is what I adhere my examples too. You came into it knowing that, don't get upset when comments are made inregards to the US.
Anyways it's a long weekend and I'm off on a road trip. Talk to you kids later


Delete