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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Another thing that bugs me is that President Bush keeps wearing military clothing when he speaks to the Military. And he keeps saluting.

Now, despot dictators (eg. Mr. Hussein) wear military uniforms. Bush hasn't worn a "uniform", per se, because he doesn't have a rank. But he keeps wearing flight uniforms, jumpsuits, and military jackets.

And since he's a civilian he needs to stop saluting because civilians don't salute military personnel!

He's the Commander-In-Chief of the military. He is not in the military. The Founding Fathers considered this to be a very important distinction.

I really wish he'd cut it out and start dressing and acting like a civilian.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Mike, two things, first off The President, be it Billy Bob Nobody or GWB, they are in the military because they are the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces.

Second thing, GWB was in the US Air Force Reserves (I laugh at this but hey it isnt up to me to judge the lagitamacy of the Air Force reserves) and though I dont know what his Rank was he still holds that rank unless he was dishonorably discharged.

So that is why he salutes.

Now why does he wear military items like flight suits and jackets, well... it is a comeradery thing. Sorry but I take pride in my squadron logo, hell I take pride in another squadrons logo (but it just looks tight so ) and if the President (no matter who he was) was wearing my logo it would bring even more pride.

So... does that answer your questions, or make any more sence? I dont know how clear I was hehe


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:In times of war, all leaders have always dropped their civilian clothing for military uniforms. It is the ones who wear the uniforms day in and day out that worry me, I think bush is hovering somewhere in between and is loving it!

Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow, I worry someone, thats cool!!

You must also understand that he is not wearing a complete uniform like other leaders around the world. IE, Saddam and Castro.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:
Mike, two things, first off The President, be it Billy Bob Nobody or GWB, they are in the military because they are the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. Ray, I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. A central pillar of U.S. government is that the Military and Militia are SUBORDINATE to civilians. The President holds no military rank (Admiral, General, etc.) because he is a CIVILIAN. Kennedy, Eisenhower, etc. were all in the military and all held ranks. They relinquished these ranks when they assumed office and were retired from military service. They also stopped saluting and never appeared in uniform during their terms.

The President is a civilian who is the CIC. The CIC is a civilian. The U.S. is not (or should not be) a military state.

It is dangerous that Bush is equating the military with patriotism.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Sorry Mike, the CIC is a military rank, that is why that specific rank no longer exists in the USN. The USN used a CIC rank/rate for a specific person on a ship, I really dont know what job it was, and last year the rank/rate was changed to just commander.

But in all honesty, if you can call down 1000's of nukes dont you think that you can salute your own men and women.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kat
Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 2211
Posted:Oooh-eee

From today's METRO - remarks from Mayor of London Ken Livingstone. Bet he only said it to piss off Bush's friend Tony. Anyhow, made me smile this morning

Livingstone Pans 'Repellent' Bush

Ken Livingstone tore into President George Bush yesterday, calling him corrupt and cowardly.
The London Mayor's outburst came during a debate at City Hall attended by 200 schoolchildren.
Mr Livingstone
said he would get as much pleasure from Mr Bush being forced out of office as he did from Saddam Hussein's overthrow.
'George Bush is everything that is repellent in politics' he added.
'The only reason he didn't go to prison for insider trading when he sold his shares - knowing they were about to go down - was because his daddy's government didn't send him to prison.'
In 1990, during his father's presidency, Mr Bush sold a 550,000 stake in Harken Energy, an oil firm for which he was a board member.
Two months later the company announced losses of 16 million causing the share price to plummet.
Mr Livingstone added: 'The only reason he didn't fight in Vietnam was because he didn't fight in Vietnam was because daddy intervened to get him in the National Guard in Texas.
'You've got this super-patriotic hawk who was a coward when his country was involved in a war.'
Conservative mayoral canditate Steve Norris said the 'utterly irresponsible' tirade was typical of the Mayor. 'The red mist comes down and his judgement just flies out if the window,' he added.


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:So why all this anti bush sentiments when you damn well that there are so many leaders out there that have done far worse?

Why dont the french bitch about their pres and his glad handing saddam, or maybe even the french nukes???

hehe yall are pathetic, pick on the easiest target.


haha pathetic!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kat
Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 2211
Posted:Aw poor Ray - don't worry not an anti-US sentiment, just an Anti gobshite one.

I could say many derogatory things about that poodle Tony Blair.

And as for the 'leaders' Ireland have - heaven help us all from the corrupt shower of b(Censored for sensitive HOP ears)

You are right though - Bush is an easy target

Have a nice weekend now - I'm off home


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:interesting subject mike
i had a further look into it and its pretty grey to be honest - i guess the way a country operates is constantly changing and this is one of those issues in a state of flux.

anyway, i found these quite informative (mike and ray)...

dept of state paper "Civilian Control of the Military"

column writer but still valid i think


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, CIC is an elected position, not a rank. What other military rank is elected by popular election? What other military rank can be gained de novo without having to go through any training? You get to be an Admiral by being an Ensign first. You cannot advance in rank to CIC by promotion. That's why the President is not in the military. The President, a civilian, has ultimate control over the military to keep the military from taking control.

It is dangerous when this distinction is lost.

And I don't believe that Churchill ever wore a uniform during WWII. Or that any U.S. President donned a uniform during Vietnam.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:pretty much all the leaders who turn into dictators wear uniforms. virually no democratic leaders do it.

And are you so daft you don't understand why bush receives all the crap? I don't know if you noticed but he is the leader of the most powerful nation in the world and the nation which has more to do with the current politics then any other leader. Oh and lets not forget he is the leader who is responsible for both the patriot act and the rave act. Him and his advisors are spouting more political rhetoric then any other nation.

So instead of trying to shift the focus to some of the shit bag leaders in france and russia. Why don't you actually discuss your own leader? Afterall he has more to do with these politics then anyone else.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well Mike, ever hear of the Presidents Own?

It is the band that follows the President around and plays for him at varius occasions. When you are selected to be in that band, you are given the rank and pay of a Staff Sergent, E6 in the USMC. No training requierd, never shoot a gun, never experiance boot camp.

(Edited due to protest)

Mike, he is a civilian, but the CIC is treated as a military rank, that is why he gets salutes, when you give someone a salute a salute in return is warented. It doesnt matter if it is the President or the Queen of England! Now does a person who is saluted have to give a salute in return? Nope, it is just a polite thing to do.

[ 12. May 2003, 21:49: Message edited by: Raymund P. ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:Firstly GWB was in the Air Force until his father pulled strings to have him transferred to the Texas Air National Guard so as to avoid a tour of Vietnam.As if that weren't bad enough he also went AWOL for his last year of service and had his flying status suspended.

I think it is despicable that he would so gladly have U.S. men and women march into their deaths and yet would be too great of a coward to lead them their.Of course that is just my opinion.

From what I have read lately this whole thing of dressing the prez up in military regalia and the landing the fighter plane on the aircraft carrier is about the coming election and making him appear to be a "manly,military man".Especially if he were to have to run against someone like John Kerry.You know someone who actually volunteered to serve (and did serve) in Vietnam, even when he also could have easily avoided military service.

Personally if I were in the service and knew of Bush's incredible service record I would be quite insulted to have to salute such a person.

Especially interesting is the "who served" link. I found it surprising how many of those virtous,patriotic,religiously right,conservative pillars of society were willing to serve their country by comparison to those evil liberals.

[ 11. May 2003, 22:01: Message edited by: ph22 ]


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:ok guys...I'm not making any comment on anything mentioned in this thread.

Just the way they are being mentioned.

Even with all the pressure and super-strong feelings on issues like these will still need to follow the HoP rules.

Unfortunately, this includes personal attacks. Such as several of the posts earlier in this thread.

Persoanlly, you guys could be being a lot nastier to each other so I applaud your restraint, but would like to caution everyone to keep to logical arguments about the topic.

Not logical arguements about the brainpower of another poster.

---<Charles signing out, continue on with the heated debate!>---


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

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Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:ph22- I looked at the page briefly and haven't made up my mind on anything yet, but the tables about the stock market, budget surplus/deficit and unemployment are pretty spectacular, to begin with...

simple note of caution to anyone who looks at the webside -The stats don't automatically mean anything about the way things were handled under each regime. After all, the internet bubble burst simply due to its lack of sustenance and profitability, then there had to be a limit to the expansion of the mobile industry. Both just two massive phenomenoms of the nineties.
The corporate scandals eventually came to light- the scams had been going on throughout the ninties "makeing" millions profit that were never there (thus contributing to an overall good outlook). In brief, the 90's were in general an astounding economic high, although arguably one that could not last, however whilst it did, it generated thousands of jobs and alongside a good cash flow.
There have been booms and recessions periodically since the beginning of the international markets, I'm not sure the charts are that good a reflection on the presidents in question- the first two charts seem more of a slander-the-pres type thing
the last one however might have something... big guns, big money, big spending, big deficit...


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:Lightning, I think you may be overreacting on this one a slight bit.

Yes, Bush has worn a military jacket or flightsuit on occasion, all on occasions where they could also be taken to have a certain utility value.

Take for example the flightsuit when he landed on the carrier in that video all the news programs were raving about. If you look how he arrived, he wasn't exactly in a luxurious 747 with an in-flight meal, he was on a military plane (can't land a 747 on a carrier). The flight suits worn by pilots and airborn personnel are designed with certain functions in mind to make air travel hospitable to the human body (via such things as harnesses, attachments for equipment like oxygen mask, etc). Jump into the back seat of an F-14 in a jogging outfit and you might notice a difference.

Wearing an army jacket could also be explained away as just trying to show support for the troops under his command. There is a difference no one can deny between the footage of Bush grinning and walking around in a jacket, and Saddam appearing in a uniform in front of a mass gathering while shooting his gun into the air. Bush has made no claims to be any sort of military dictator, he's just wearing the home team's jacket

Yes, he is a civilian in the position he's in, but being "Commander in Chief" is certainly an honorary title that comes with certain formalities. Who's to say only the military can salute each other? It's a formal way of showing respect for something or someone, just like putting your hand on your heart for the Pledge of Allegiance, or in Boy Scouts. Just because it happens more frequently in the military doesn't mean it's restricted to that part of society, and even if the President was completely removed form the military in every way/shape/form, I still think it would be appropriate if only as a gesture of respect to and from a person elected into a very important position. However, as things stand now, he is sorta the guy in charge, and you always gotta show some respect to your boss even if they don't work in the same office complex as you do. OK now I'm getting into the realm of personal grumbling, I'll move on.

Every president in the past, regardless of the military actions during their administrations, has at some point saluted military personnel. I know you're a reasonable guy Lightning, and I'm certainly not saying anything bad about ya, but to make a fuss about it now, over just the current cowboy in office, seems less like an actual issue and more like just another stab at a president you disagree with. It wasn't ever a problem for Clinton to salute military, was it?

I may be taking you slightly out of context however, and you do make a point in that the president getting all "militaried up" can be taken to extremes. Once in a while, exercising the appropriate formalities isn't a big deal and doesn't represent a problem, but from here on I'm gonna be watching what the prez wears a little more closely to see maybe where you're coming from


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:quote:Originally posted by King Of Bongo:
In times of war, all leaders have always dropped their civilian clothing for military uniforms. It is the ones who wear the uniforms day in and day out that worry me, I think bush is hovering somewhere in between and is loving it! Not "all" leaders. King george the 1st wore khakies and a blue denim shirt fro pretty much the entirety of gulf war #1.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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