Forums > Social Discussion > The difference between American war attitude and the British

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

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Posted:The British speech (Lt.Col Tim Collins)

"If you are ferocious in battle, remember to be magnanimous in victory. We go to liberate, not to conquer. We are entering Iraq to free a people, and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own.

Don't treat them as refugees, for they are in their own country. If there are casualties of war, then remember, when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down history. Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birth of Abraham. Tread lightly there."


The US speech (Vice Admiral Timothy Keating)

"When the president says 'Go', look out - it's Hammer time" (followed by "We Will Rock You" at high volume)


Made me laugh (and cry).


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:You want to know something, the two songs I listen to every day is Sand Storm and Bombs over Bahgdad! It pumps me up and when your getting up at 3 AM to be at work by 4:30, you need a little sumtin sumtin to get you awake.

Our attitudes at face value are different, that is very true. Do not forget that though our societies are very similer they are also very different.

Look at the actual treatment of the Iraqis and you will see that both the UK and the US treat them well, civilians are not beat and treated inhumain, nor are POWs and looters.


What Mr. Bush tries to do to pump up the crowd is up to him, look at some of the lame arse songs played at highschool pep-rallys!!!


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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

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Posted:Two things.

First these quotes highlight one thing. Americans thrive on creating and absorbing marketing gimmics. This illistrates how posturing, using pop culture ("Hammertime!") and certain music is used to just psych people up for something with out thinking about whether they need it or not. Reminded me of a Pepsi add or some shit (Geez war sucks but man! I love that song! Go get 'em - Geez Pepsi is unhealthy crap but man! I love that song! Gotta get some).

The fact that on more than one occasion an American flag was raised on Iraq soil before being ordered down illistrates that regardless of the political propaganda the attitude of some of the soldiers is waaaaaaay off the reasons they are supposed to be there. Marketing hype (Like "When the president says 'Go!' - it's Hammertime") does nothing more than simplify and encourage the lack of meaningful thought involved (at an infantry level) in the military activities being undertaken in a foreign country.

These little speeches were not for military personel though, they were for the media. To catch people up in hype for the upcoming action. I respect the need for motivational music (whatever that may be for you) however this falls in to the mindless propaganda catagory for me. I just found the contrast between the English dudes philosophical/respectful speech and the brief american hype amusing.

Second, lighten up dude. It made me laugh. I'm not from England. I don't hate Americans. I'm not trying to piss in anyone's pocket. I thought it may put a smile on a few people's faces but it's obvious you have now returned to your old HoP ways and are too busy trying to infuriate people that you've forgotten to just have a bit of a laugh (both at yourself and everyone else).

I'm not going to debate my views on this subject with you Ray - I don't find it constructive. You don't make me consider you POV just make me think that you're enjoying rubbing peoples rubarb.

Reply as required mate, I'll read it but I won't respond.


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DaiTenshi
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Posted:

Well...... don't get to be a vice admiral for your ability to write a speaech..... hmmmmm.

Anywho, kinda sad.

But, hey, whatever they think everyone else needs, I'll just keep sitting there politly refraining from applause with an expectant look.

Admiral: Hey boy, there's punch and pie in the conferance room don't you want some?
Me: no, I'm just waiting for the speech to begin.
Admiral:
Me: So have you met this admiral guy?

Anywho, whatever. I'm sure someone in the US military has given a very nice speech I could cut and paste here..... I just don't want to go find it at 4 in the morning


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:quote: Marketing hype (Like "When the president says 'Go!' - it's Hammertime") does nothing more than simplify and encourage the lack of meaningful thought involved (at an infantry level) in the military activities being undertaken in a foreign country.
Berzerker, WTF do you know about the infantry or anything about its level?

Tell me can you write a 5 paragraph order, call for suppressive fire and let the artiliery know where to place the rounds even though the target is miles away? Can you handle the logisitics of moving 1,000's of people 1000's of miles?

You think it is just point and shoot, well mate there is a hell of alot more to war than that!

Take for example why America has air superiority, in 10,000 cubic feet the US places up to 10 planes add in artilery, cruise missiles and enimy aircraft, artilery and what not you get a rather big mess. Most Asian and Europian countries place one plane in that 10,000 cubic feet.

Could you handle the stress of knowing where your planes are, where your artilery shells are falling and where your troop and the enimies troops are?

Thats just 10,000 cubic feet, try a whole battlefield!!!

You cant grasp the intelligence it takes to be a grunt, let alone what it takes to be in the militiary.

Your very right, the difference in the two examples are quite funny. Just look at the difference in the societies. The Brittish are a little more stiff, while the Americans are quite lax. Well, in some areas. Americans are addicted to hype while the Brittish (Spice Girls), well... I rest my case


You know the sad part, I wasnt even rude or harsh in any way to you when I replied the first time. I was agreeing with you that it was stupid and funny. I think you just saw who replied and then unleashed whatever BS you could come up with. I dont think you even read what I said.

The only thing I ask is that atleast tell me why you thought I was attacking you, even if you do it in PM. I am really really confused as to why you thought that I was attacking you.

Here, I'll take the first step and PM you.


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simian
simian

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Posted:I think he probably meant that infantry are not trained (and even trained not to) think about what they're doing at a moral, ethical or philosophical level. Which is very different to saying they don't think.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

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Posted:But yeah...

theres a certain kind of media you get thats just aimed at the lowest common denominator.
"Play this big loud rockin tune and people will go hell yeah!"
its generally used for certain types of advert and popular tv programming/films/music.

Its about engaging people on a basic instinctive emotional level, rather than accessing those emotions through the medium of ideas and concepts.

Both methods can be used to deceive people if they don't question things enough. The basic emotional appraoch is just easier to use and easier to spot.

UK politics and serious issues tend to avoid it more than the same subject matter in the US, but that might just be because we're behind the trend. Or because we're pompous intellectual elitists.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well, I cant vouch for any other branch of the service, but US Marines have what are called Core Values. Honor, Currage, Commitment those are also morals. We have, in boot camp, classes about these morals/values and how to apply them to our lives. Not to mention the 4 college credit hours for history and 8 for physical fitness but you would be supprised what one gets tought along side with killing!

So before you go off and say that soldiers arnt tought morals or values think again.

Though I agree with your second post, your first is more insulting than anything else.


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Dio
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Posted:quote: Americans thrive on creating and absorbing marketing gimmics. This illistrates how posturing, using pop culture ("Hammertime!") and certain music is used to just psych people up for something with out thinking about whether they need it or not You talk about using music and snappy gimmicks to stir up a mass hysteria?

One word comes to mind here - WOODSTOCK.

It's a double-edged sword, mate. On both sides you're going to have people who want to whip their following into an irrational frenzy, it's just the way it goes.

I would certainly not categorize a phrase from one American soldier as the entire American Military's belief structure. Just as I'm sure the British soldiers may have had a few among their ranks who were a little thirsty for violence. Describing Vice Admiral Keating's speech as "The US Speech" is blatant stereotyping, like if someone were to say gangsta rap is "The Black Culture." It certainly isn't, and the group being pigeon-holed has every right to be offended by the statement.

If one approaches an issue only looking for the bad elements, chances are they'll find them and focus on them.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:*goes up to the score board and marks a "1" next to Dio's name*

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simian
simian

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Posted:Ray: If you found it offensive then i'm sorry, but also confused about why.

Soldiers are trained to follow orders 1st and foremost, no? Do you decide what to do in combat based on what feels morally right, or by what you are told to do?

I'm not saying it should be any other way, because it obviously shouldn't. A person in a firefight isn't in a position to judge the wider implications of what is going on. His survival and the survival of his comrades are dependent on him doing the right thing, coordinated with his comrades. The only way to do that is following orders.

Therefore soldiers are trained NOT to make moral or ethical judgements in combat, but to blindly follow orders. That is the best way to maximise safety and effectiveness. Or is that incorrect?

[ 25. April 2003, 21:18: Message edited by: Simian ]


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
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Posted:*wonders when a 'scoreboard' became a useful tool in open discussions*

i agree with most of what you said dio but i think there is a fundamental difference between psyching people up by using music to your advantage (hammertime?! please...) and writing songs for a specific purpose.

music has been accused in this thread of being used (or mis-used) to create a response in people, which it does - music is one of the most expresssive and emotive tools we have.
but i think there is a difference between using an upbeat tune to reinforce whatever you are spouting at that time and playing a song you wrote for a specific purpose, one which one naturally invokes feelings about its subject matter.

without listening to any connected speeches about war (pro or con) do this:

listen to richie havens singing 'freedom' at woodstock.
then listen to mc hammer.
compare and contrast with respect to this thread.


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:In the heat of combat, you must still make moral decisions.

The guy to the left of me just got shot, do I

A. keep shooting and call a Corpsman (Doc)
B. do I stop shooting and try to help him, while calling for a Corpsman (the negitive aspect to this is I could get shot and so could the guy to my right!)
C. do I do nothing


Also, after a firefight, how does one treat those (if any) surrender?

MOOTWA (Military Operations Other Than War)

What does one do when they see something wrong while out in town?

I mean there are so many ways that morals can be used in combat, and noncombat roles.

Yes you are tought to kill and follow orders, but you are also tought to think, always think.


You never blindly follow an order, especially if it is wrong. The idea of blindly following an order is a terrible steriotype. A broad generalisation of what it takes to be in the military.

I gaurnte you blindly follow some law (or order, it is all a matter of perspective) thoughout the course of your day. Think of the thousands of laws out there, and what one do you follow without thinking about it?

Are you worse than me?


Coleman, should the world start doing drugs just becasue Jimmy Hendrix was at woodstock?

I agree that there is a big difference between using or missusing a song for your own designs to create a emotional responce and using a song purly written to pull a responce from the listener.


I mean, does Sand Storm really pull a lets go get em attitude from you. It does me. But not only in a violent way. I mean I listen to it when I leave in the morning when I get home when I do whatever.

I listen to Castles in the Sky when I wish to realx, and Omnibus when I am in a good mood.


"Music is a reflection of self" ~Eminem~

You cant get more true than that. Weather or not a song is written to cause X responce it doesnt matter, what matters is what the listener gets from it.


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coleman
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Posted:the world should definitely not all start doing drugs cos of jimi - not only are some people not suited to altered mind states but there is blatently not enough to go around and we can't have a shortage now can we

i would contend however that the majority of the people at woodstock had already made their minds up about the drugs issue.

the main difference for me is that woodstock was a music festival, not a speech. yes, musicians made comments on world affairs at the festival but music has always had a massive political element - especially in the folk singers of that era- but i don't think it was appropriate here.
i maintain that the british lt. col.'s words were far more fitting to the situation.
if one reads it from the viewpoint of an iraqi civilian and considers which approach seems more considered and amenable to them, i think the british speech lends the situation the gravity it deserves.


correction from my earlier post - the american vice admiral used an upbeat queen song, not an mc hammer one.
importantly, the lyrics to 'we will rock you' are far more applicable than i had previously thought.
when ray said "Weather or not a song is written to cause X responce it doesnt matter, what matters is what the listener gets from it." i couldn't have agreed more.

it seems in this case to me to be an anti dictator song (or heaven forbid, an anti protestor song ).

because of this my opinion is still that it was used inappropriately - it reads more like a threat to the leaders of the regime than (media friendly) advice to the forces.
but i do concede that it wasn't as simple as "geez war sucks but man! i love that song! go get 'em"


"Buddy you're an old man poor man
Pleadin' with your eyes gonna make you some peace some day
You got mud on your face
Big disgrace
Somebody betta put you back into your place"

[ 26. April 2003, 01:53: Message edited by: coleman ]


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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King Of Bongo
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Posted:Anyone though about what the songwriter/singer would have said about using his music for a war psyc-up?

I definitely think Freddy Mercury, a homosexual peace-loving pop-star would not have written that song if he knew it was going to misused in such a manner...


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I am sure that you can go out and find a moving PC speech made by some US military leader and a speech made by a UK military leader, that makes him look like a pompus arse.

Why doesnt someone try to find an example of each for both sides, and then let us examine them.


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poiaholic22
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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:

So before you go off and say that soldiers arnt tought morals or values think again.I found this awfully amusing.

Here's the pics, hope you can read Norwegian.

Amnesty International's take on it.


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DaiTenshi
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Posted:Considering that there are no facilities or institutions set up to deal with run-of-the-mill criminals and detaining would-be looters isn't exactly high on any military's list of priorities I think amnesty international should be damn happy that no other forms of punishment were used.

Humiliating yes, but then if you try to steal something it's not like you deserve respect and/or praise. From the pictures you can see that while first led out with their hands binded their bindings are later released and these guys were allowed to run off.

Would the world be happier if they had been thrown in a cell? Should they have been cained (singapore response)? Should they have had their hands lobbed off (trad. Islamic law response)? Perhaps a day and night in the stocks (ah medievalism )?

I'm sorry but I really have zero pitty for a pair of crooks who've only been stripped and then released.

Crime and punishment, not crime and "hey, would you like a cookie?"

Sorry if it's a bit callous but really, these guys got off light for trying to rob a coalition forces weapons depot. Seriously, even youthfull offenders here stealing no more than a bloody candy bar can end up with a few nights in jail. Public humiliaition is really low on the list of punishments.

Though branding is awefully terrible, I bet that permanent marker took FOREVER to get out.

Taste the snarkyness, it is good


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poiaholic22
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Posted:Wow! Totally missed the point.

You're right though, snarkiness is fun. ^____^


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:Instead of insulting me, you made yourself look like an ass.

All societies have people in them that dont do the right thing. Does it mean that they were not tought morals?

You are truly pathetic.


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King Of Bongo
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Posted:Daitenshi- its a question of the suitability of the punishment. Perhaps you believe in the death penalty? I'm sure thieves are of no use to society, why not kill them seeing as there is no local police force?...

I know what your point is, but get mine- the public humiliation of someone in that way is simply not an adequate response whatever the crime. Do you see thieves over here being paraded around in the nuddy? I very much doubt it! (now that might be class!)

If you are an occupying force, you should make sure you police the country you are occupying properly and have enough forces to do so. Would you not say the looting was a big enough thing for the planners back in Washington to have foreseen it and tried to prevent it?

I'm sure it was run-of-the-mill criminals that partly plundered the national museum too...

Like ray said, I very much doubt the soldiers were taking any sort of military taught morals into account (Im sure they must teach soldiers the Geneva convention right ray? article 27 from what I read of the amnesty international report).

I think we can all be pretty certain they thought it would be more of a laugh than anything else... either these soldiers have taken the local culture's aversion to nudity into account 0% (how stupid) or 100% (how cruel) either way its not the way to act.

These soldiers need to be disciplined and taught to grow up, its not like once you check clothes for weapons you can't give them back... I'm sure you agree its them who give the military/US a bad name. Controversy better than gold for the press.
quote:
"You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down history"

Do you think anyone would help those people with the equivalent to "thief" written on them walking about naked? Do you think they won't get punished and rejected by everyone else around them? Dont you think the aftermath of their branding and nudity wont be extremely harsh?

One thing is to put someone in jail, where they can sit and think about their f**-up and how although they are in a situation where life is hard they shouldnt resort to stealing (although this is not certain, it is more likely). Another is to leave someone mentally scarred and morally devastated- what do you think these people will do when they get home after being laughed, jeered and cursed maybe even stoned at all the way home? Say- "oh, these American soldiers caught me stealing, stripped me naked and let me go, aren't I lucky I got off lightly?!"

no.
They won't. Or even if they do, later after feeling like shit their thoughts will probably be more along the lines of "how humiliating, I hate those American soldiers who invade our country, dont bring us half enough food or water to go round and expect us not to do anything!" (whatever your opinion on this matter) "I was merely trying to feed my family and look at what they do to me... it was better when saddam was around- there were problems, yes, but it was better, at least I would have had my dignity (even if no hands!)"
-unfortunately it is strange how quickly people forget/lessen the bad of the past in situations like this and bring in the "exceptions in times of need" to their defence/self-consolation.

Ok this is probably not exactly it, but something like it. Resentment and bitterness, and fear of it happening again/similar punishment/a new government harsher than the last...
and then someone (soz, cant remember who) on HOP's favourite quote from Starwars
fear leads to anger,
anger leads to hate,
and hate leads to the dark side...

People will not think about how they were treated before (or again, even if they do), people will at first see the "freedom" they are given as a license to do whatever they want and be let off (as opposed to the hand cutting you mention).

They need to be reminded this is not so, but adequately. Thus the "tread lightly there" in the wise lieutenant Tim Collin's words...

It is people like the ones in those pictures who go off and become terrorists. Public humiliation is not the way forwards- it merely creates massive inferiority complexes which turn bad. Rumour has it hitler only had one ball...
Do you think after this, someone is going to point out where ba'ath party leaders are hiding or is going to help them (who will obviously give them sympathy)?

Daitenshi, think about it from their point of view before rashly quoting your own. Why do you think the US military has taken such a serious attitude towards it rather than going "they deserved everything they got"?

As far as I know, these pictures were taken in Baghdad, and there were no British soldiers in Baghdad. This leads me nicely back to some speculation about the original post of this thread.

Ben

[ 29. April 2003, 13:30: Message edited by: King Of Bongo ]


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:In the first article it said that they couldnt tell who they were, so the other articles are assuming who these soldiers were. That point really doesnt matter right now, now does it?


I like the idea of humiliation as a punishment.


My senior year of highschool, I got busted skipping school. (actually I always seemed to get busted but blech) Anyhoo... my Mom threated that if I skipped school again, she would quit her job and walk me from class to class and tell everyone that "Since I was not mature enough to get to class, his Mommy had to help him!"

That threat alone was enough to keep me on the strait and narrow hehe.

Humiliation isnt that bad hehe.


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King Of Bongo
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Posted:It obviously depends on the situation- every mother has a right to keep their children in line!

And I'm sure you were a very naughty little boy Ray. hehehe...

And true, we don't yet know who the soldiers are, hence the mere speculation...

The arabic writing suggests if it was the US army then locals probably also had something to do with it. However the fact is that alibaba will turn to the dark side... and it isnt just the locals that have to worry about him, its everyone. (drum roll)


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:Well... they could have gotten worse. Personally I would rather have to walk through town naked than go to an Iraqi prison!

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King Of Bongo
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Posted:True, but your idea of an Iraqi prison corresponds to the old ways of the saddam regime rather than what should be a "democratic prison" guarded by the "liberating forces" where prisoners should be treated relatively well.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:Ohh yes, I am so confident that things will change. </sarcasim>

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coleman
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Posted:then why did we go to war again...?

if it wasn't the wmd's and it wasn't about change what was it all about?!



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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
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King Of Bongo
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Posted:i guess that's what exactly what makes it a fallacy of justice and a phoney war.
The Brits seem (and from the looks of it, have) moral integrity which is where the american soldiers break down. All balls and no brains...


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poiaholic22
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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:

Instead of insulting me, you made yourself look like an ass.

All societies have people in them that dont do the right thing. Does it mean that they were not tought morals?

You are truly pathetic. Was this aimed at me because if so I think you should know ...

a.I wasn't trying to insult you.

b.I was thinking the same thing you were.Tell me would you be the "good" soldier and have had them do what was mentioned in the link.

c.If we are thinking the same thing and hence I am pathetic for it,what does that make you?

Seriously though Ray I didn't mean any disrespect.It was actually kind of coincidental that I found those articles at the same time this thread was running.


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poiaholic22
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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund P.:

In the first article it said that they couldnt tell who they were, so the other articles are assuming who these soldiers were. That point really doesnt matter right now, now does it?BTW the actual "first" article was the one out of the Norwegian news which was then brought to light by Amnesty International as being a possible violation of the Geneva Convention .


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
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Posted:KoB what are you basing your comparison on? Personal opinion? One or two articles and a speech? Please, honestly who besides I do you know in the American military?

Coleman, try to find me one Arab prison with a good reputation. I know I am speculating and generalizing but man, I just cant think of any.

I mean the US has cable TV, internet and colleges in prisons. What is the typical Arab prison like?

I really doubt that part of the country will change too drastically.


I dont know did we go to war to make the prisons better, maybe we did, but I personally just dont see it happening.


Poiaholic, the whole domineer of your post suggested an "In your face" attitude. I mean it was like you were trying to say that because of these 3 or 4 individuals actions I was lying when I said that the US Military is tough morals.

So yes I did take offence to it.

Ohh and I take it I am lying when I say that the first link/article that you posted said

quote: One picture showed three naked men in the park with soldiers walking behind them. The soldiers were in a shaded area and it was not possible to clearly see their uniforms.

in the third paragraph?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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