Forums > Social Discussion > A picture is worth 1000 words
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Follow the link and read the whole page, it isnt long, but please do that before continuing on, otherwise what I say will make no sence.
Go here first
Please show respect to your country, even though you may not like the government, you should still show due respect to your flag, for it embodies everything your country has done in the past and freedoms that you posses. Men and women have died to keep that flag raised, do not dishonor those people just because you dont like the current government.
To help you view my feelings, imagine the most disrespectful thing anyone has ever done, multiply that by infinite and then you might just get a glimpse of how sick I felt when I saw that photo. How much rage flowed through me, I just closed the window and it wasn’t until today that I read the poem underneath.
If I ever see an American sit there when their countries Colors are paraded by, so help me because there will be lots of pain for that person.
Follow the link and read the whole page, it isnt long, but please do that before continuing on, otherwise what I say will make no sence.
Go here first
Please show respect to your country, even though you may not like the government, you should still show due respect to your flag, for it embodies everything your country has done in the past and freedoms that you posses. Men and women have died to keep that flag raised, do not dishonor those people just because you dont like the current government.
To help you view my feelings, imagine the most disrespectful thing anyone has ever done, multiply that by infinite and then you might just get a glimpse of how sick I felt when I saw that photo. How much rage flowed through me, I just closed the window and it wasn’t until today that I read the poem underneath.
If I ever see an American sit there when their countries Colors are paraded by, so help me because there will be lots of pain for that person.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
I agree.
Also I would say violence towards people who don't conform to american patriotism is an american tradition, one you seem to be interested in upholding.
Edit:The veterns fought so they could have the right to sit there and disrespect the veterns and the nation while the flags go by. It's an important right which is guranteed by the constitution.
[ 21. April 2003, 19:27: Message edited by: Astar ]
I agree.
Also I would say violence towards people who don't conform to american patriotism is an american tradition, one you seem to be interested in upholding.
Edit:The veterns fought so they could have the right to sit there and disrespect the veterns and the nation while the flags go by. It's an important right which is guranteed by the constitution.
[ 21. April 2003, 19:27: Message edited by: Astar ]
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Should you stand out of respect, or stand out of patriotisim? They are different things.
How many students in China were killed because they spoke out against the government?
And you think I am violent?
When you look at under that light I am very tolerant.
Should you stand out of respect, or stand out of patriotisim? They are different things.
How many students in China were killed because they spoke out against the government?
And you think I am violent?
When you look at under that light I am very tolerant.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posted:
That is just really, really sad.
If nothing else some one should've notticed "oh shit, dude that old guy in a wheel chair is standing up, you realize how incredibly pathetic we look?"
I share Raymund's snetiment, however the desire to punch someone for showing no respect is not the same as punching them.
Hll, sometimes even happens a few times a day. Someone pisses me off and in my mind I can see me sliding in with a perfect slashing elbow and breaking their collar bone, but I don't do it.
I would certainly stand and would be filled with complete disgust if I saw that the crippled war veteran was exherting himself incredibly to honor his country (something I'm sure someone has told him he needlessly lost his legs for) and perfectly able bodied people sat by basically insutling his sacrifice and then essentially mocking him and what he stands for.
Just because you have the right to sit there and show no respect doesn't mean you should expect anything resembling respect from me, or Ray, or that man.
We have as much right to be insulted as you do to insult.
If you catch my drift.
in summary: if nothing else someone should've at least had the courtesy to stand beside this guy.
Though the camera angle doesn't show very many people and it's quite possible there were a bunch of folks standing behind, to the right, or further to the left of him.
Who knows.
edit: could that website BE any more annoyingly designed? I mean come on, a MIDI blegh >_<
[ 22. April 2003, 02:33: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]
That is just really, really sad.
If nothing else some one should've notticed "oh shit, dude that old guy in a wheel chair is standing up, you realize how incredibly pathetic we look?"
I share Raymund's snetiment, however the desire to punch someone for showing no respect is not the same as punching them.
Hll, sometimes even happens a few times a day. Someone pisses me off and in my mind I can see me sliding in with a perfect slashing elbow and breaking their collar bone, but I don't do it.
I would certainly stand and would be filled with complete disgust if I saw that the crippled war veteran was exherting himself incredibly to honor his country (something I'm sure someone has told him he needlessly lost his legs for) and perfectly able bodied people sat by basically insutling his sacrifice and then essentially mocking him and what he stands for.
Just because you have the right to sit there and show no respect doesn't mean you should expect anything resembling respect from me, or Ray, or that man.
We have as much right to be insulted as you do to insult.
If you catch my drift.
in summary: if nothing else someone should've at least had the courtesy to stand beside this guy.
Though the camera angle doesn't show very many people and it's quite possible there were a bunch of folks standing behind, to the right, or further to the left of him.
Who knows.
edit: could that website BE any more annoyingly designed? I mean come on, a MIDI blegh >_<
[ 22. April 2003, 02:33: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]
No one knows me like I do.
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
Somewhere in Biblical Scripture it's written, "There is no greater expression of love for another person than to be willing to die for them." These veterans, and the soldiers of today as well, are all taking that step. Regardless of what issue puts them in harm's way, regardless of the ethics involved, these people have signed a period of their lives away (sometimes their entire lives) so that they can defend me.
That's right, ME. Because I'm American, they're willing to die for me. I don't know many of them, I haven't made friends with many of them, I haven't forged many close relationships or even acquaintances with them. But each and every one of those soldiers would take a bullet or worse for me.
That deserves some ****in respect.
Somewhere in Biblical Scripture it's written, "There is no greater expression of love for another person than to be willing to die for them." These veterans, and the soldiers of today as well, are all taking that step. Regardless of what issue puts them in harm's way, regardless of the ethics involved, these people have signed a period of their lives away (sometimes their entire lives) so that they can defend me.
That's right, ME. Because I'm American, they're willing to die for me. I don't know many of them, I haven't made friends with many of them, I haven't forged many close relationships or even acquaintances with them. But each and every one of those soldiers would take a bullet or worse for me.
That deserves some ****in respect.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
member
13 posts
Location: Abroad
13 posts
Location: Abroad
Posted:
Oh dear. I suppose I'd better not post the pictures of the flag burning we had last weekend then. I prefer the colours you get from a union jack but my mates are all for the stars & stripes. I suppose its a matter of personal taste really (and avoid those cheap nylon ones they give off nasty fumes).
Relax people - ask yourself what a flag means to you, and why, before getting so irate. First of all its just a piece of coloured cloth like my pants. The symbolism which gets attached to it is just that, symbolism, and generally the nationalism nonsense is all about trying to bind a 'nation' together. ie we are all Americans or Nigerian etc. This serves to hide some important things ,like class divisions, and leads to the erroneous beliefs amongst some of us (not the ruling class who never let nationalism get in the way of making a profit) that there something worth defending in the idea of 'Our country' or 'the flag' etc.
That same stars and stripes (but it could be any flag really) really means 'stop thinking and do as your leaders tell you'. There is no country or nation seperate from the one ruled by, and run for, the rich. So please get angry at useful things like the opening up of Alaska to the oil companies or children dying of malnutrition in Africa rather than some sensible people who are sitting in the sunshine relaxing.
As for the photo I have a couple of questions which have neen ignored by the comments so far:
1. What was the parade about anyway?
2. Does anyone really know why the geezer was saluting and what? Was it his mates marching, the flag or another reason?
3. Was he a cup short of a tea set?
Flag saluting makes as much sense as singing a song wishing for some rich woman to be saved by God when she is already quite happy thank you.
Oh dear. I suppose I'd better not post the pictures of the flag burning we had last weekend then. I prefer the colours you get from a union jack but my mates are all for the stars & stripes. I suppose its a matter of personal taste really (and avoid those cheap nylon ones they give off nasty fumes).
Relax people - ask yourself what a flag means to you, and why, before getting so irate. First of all its just a piece of coloured cloth like my pants. The symbolism which gets attached to it is just that, symbolism, and generally the nationalism nonsense is all about trying to bind a 'nation' together. ie we are all Americans or Nigerian etc. This serves to hide some important things ,like class divisions, and leads to the erroneous beliefs amongst some of us (not the ruling class who never let nationalism get in the way of making a profit) that there something worth defending in the idea of 'Our country' or 'the flag' etc.
That same stars and stripes (but it could be any flag really) really means 'stop thinking and do as your leaders tell you'. There is no country or nation seperate from the one ruled by, and run for, the rich. So please get angry at useful things like the opening up of Alaska to the oil companies or children dying of malnutrition in Africa rather than some sensible people who are sitting in the sunshine relaxing.
As for the photo I have a couple of questions which have neen ignored by the comments so far:
1. What was the parade about anyway?
2. Does anyone really know why the geezer was saluting and what? Was it his mates marching, the flag or another reason?
3. Was he a cup short of a tea set?
Flag saluting makes as much sense as singing a song wishing for some rich woman to be saved by God when she is already quite happy thank you.
Capitalism Kills - Kill Capitalism
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
If you care about your country at all and I know you do then stop comparing it to every fascist state you can find and saying "see, We aren't them"
There is a big diffrence between being insulted and assaulting someone because they are insulting you.
As for bubble king I love your signature "capitalism kills, kill capitalism"
So what is it that you are suggesting doesn't kill? Is it communism? Because stalin himself is responsible for 200 million deaths, the Vietcong are responsible for a another largescale genocide and so is cambodia. Now if you consider the imperialistic proxy wars of the USSR they have killed just as many people as the americans have by setting up dictators and causing wars between countrys.
So maybe you should stop appealing to the hearts of us dirty capitalists with the dirty slogan "capitalism kills, kill capitalism"
quote:What does china have to do with this? That is seriously the worst arguement I have ever seen. I am going to kill the neighbours that sit on either side of my house because honestly I am confused why anyone would consider it violent on a moral or legal level. I mean jeez China has killed all kinds of people. If you look at everything under that light I won't be doing anything wrong.
Originally posted by Raymund P.:
And you think I am violent?
When you look at under that light I am very tolerant.
If you care about your country at all and I know you do then stop comparing it to every fascist state you can find and saying "see, We aren't them"
There is a big diffrence between being insulted and assaulting someone because they are insulting you.
As for bubble king I love your signature "capitalism kills, kill capitalism"
So what is it that you are suggesting doesn't kill? Is it communism? Because stalin himself is responsible for 200 million deaths, the Vietcong are responsible for a another largescale genocide and so is cambodia. Now if you consider the imperialistic proxy wars of the USSR they have killed just as many people as the americans have by setting up dictators and causing wars between countrys.
So maybe you should stop appealing to the hearts of us dirty capitalists with the dirty slogan "capitalism kills, kill capitalism"
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
I wonder how that veteran feels about the benefits that this country is preparing to take away from him?
I wonder how that veteran feels about the benefits that this country is preparing to take away from him?
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Astar, your comments are stupid. You ignored the reason for my post and attacked me directly. Did you even look at the picture?
And then you turn around and attack someone becasue of their signature. Damn and I thought I liked to fight.
My Flag is not just a piece of cloth. When the time came men and women fought a died for that Flag, for the freedoms, the people, the land that it represents.
A Flag is more than just a pretty banner that you hang from your house on Federal Holidays. It is the symbol of your nation, and I say your because that goes for every country.
A flag is to be cherished, not ridiculed and burned. When you burn the flag you are insulting your whole family line. The things your ancestors struggled for are tarnished because you are willing to desicrate the symbol of their strife.
Yes there are class devisions in every country, a flag or saying I am American doesn hide that, it embraces it. It says that I am still proud of being an American even though I am worth $100 billion or even though I dont have a dime to my name. It doesnt hide in unifies.
I am sorry Bubble Court Jester, but a flag doesnt have anything to do with the leaders of a country, it has to do with the people!
No where on the American flag does anything represent the leaders of America. No it represents the people.
Astar, your comments are stupid. You ignored the reason for my post and attacked me directly. Did you even look at the picture?
And then you turn around and attack someone becasue of their signature. Damn and I thought I liked to fight.
My Flag is not just a piece of cloth. When the time came men and women fought a died for that Flag, for the freedoms, the people, the land that it represents.
A Flag is more than just a pretty banner that you hang from your house on Federal Holidays. It is the symbol of your nation, and I say your because that goes for every country.
A flag is to be cherished, not ridiculed and burned. When you burn the flag you are insulting your whole family line. The things your ancestors struggled for are tarnished because you are willing to desicrate the symbol of their strife.
Yes there are class devisions in every country, a flag or saying I am American doesn hide that, it embraces it. It says that I am still proud of being an American even though I am worth $100 billion or even though I dont have a dime to my name. It doesnt hide in unifies.
I am sorry Bubble Court Jester, but a flag doesnt have anything to do with the leaders of a country, it has to do with the people!
No where on the American flag does anything represent the leaders of America. No it represents the people.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
addict
522 posts
Location: Berlin
522 posts
Location: Berlin
Posted:
Dear Ray,
There is no sense in flying a flag unless it represents the very essence of the ideals and which you stand for. Maybe people just don't think the way you do? By the american constitution and the freedom they are granted by it, they have every right not to stand, and for you to leave them alone.
Quite frankly, an american flag to me currently symbolises a country powerful enough to opress others in the name of a fake cause and be proud of it. It represents a country that doesn't care about suffering where there is business to be done, where either you go out and make money or you're by yourself...
A flag for me is quite frankly an outdated imperialistic symbol representing power and pride (aka arrogance). Old Glory, fair enough, struggle against oppression, but old (one shouldn't rest on one's laurels forever).
As someone else correctly pointed out, there is no explanation behind what this march is for, could you not think that maybe someone is not standing up because they disagree with the cause for which the flag is being flown?
I know I wouldn't stand up for a flag of "my" country passing by if I thought it was being wrongly paraded. And I certainly wouldn't stand up just because someone else is. As for in front of a military parade which as a general rule I don't believe in... well just forget about it!
What do you want ray? everyone to click sharply to attention? what about raise their right arm too and shout "Heil!"?!?
respect, but only when respect is due.
Ben
PS about the picture being worth a thousand words...
HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE IRONY INHERENT IN THE ESTABLISHMENT DIRECTLY BEHIND THE FLAG!!!
It is simply the subtleties in life...
Dear Ray,
There is no sense in flying a flag unless it represents the very essence of the ideals and which you stand for. Maybe people just don't think the way you do? By the american constitution and the freedom they are granted by it, they have every right not to stand, and for you to leave them alone.
Quite frankly, an american flag to me currently symbolises a country powerful enough to opress others in the name of a fake cause and be proud of it. It represents a country that doesn't care about suffering where there is business to be done, where either you go out and make money or you're by yourself...
A flag for me is quite frankly an outdated imperialistic symbol representing power and pride (aka arrogance). Old Glory, fair enough, struggle against oppression, but old (one shouldn't rest on one's laurels forever).
As someone else correctly pointed out, there is no explanation behind what this march is for, could you not think that maybe someone is not standing up because they disagree with the cause for which the flag is being flown?
I know I wouldn't stand up for a flag of "my" country passing by if I thought it was being wrongly paraded. And I certainly wouldn't stand up just because someone else is. As for in front of a military parade which as a general rule I don't believe in... well just forget about it!
What do you want ray? everyone to click sharply to attention? what about raise their right arm too and shout "Heil!"?!?
respect, but only when respect is due.
Ben
PS about the picture being worth a thousand words...
HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE IRONY INHERENT IN THE ESTABLISHMENT DIRECTLY BEHIND THE FLAG!!!
It is simply the subtleties in life...
Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
What do you feel about your national flag, Bongo?
What do you take pride in when you think of Madrid?
Personally I know nothing about the place, so I cant and wont say anything.
No disrespect or nuttin but, this was aimed more at Americans. You do have an interesting point of view though.
See, the people may be sitting in protest to something that is going on at that time. I agree that we dont know for sure what it is all about, but all I do know is that a veterine is standing up from his wheelchair. Who knows what kind of will power that took. And for me to see those people sitting while that man is standing, enrages me.
Have you ever seen something like that?
What do you feel about your national flag, Bongo?
What do you take pride in when you think of Madrid?
Personally I know nothing about the place, so I cant and wont say anything.
No disrespect or nuttin but, this was aimed more at Americans. You do have an interesting point of view though.
See, the people may be sitting in protest to something that is going on at that time. I agree that we dont know for sure what it is all about, but all I do know is that a veterine is standing up from his wheelchair. Who knows what kind of will power that took. And for me to see those people sitting while that man is standing, enrages me.
Have you ever seen something like that?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
382 posts
Location: Southampton
382 posts
Location: Southampton
Posted:
I think that it is a thought provoking photo but I think that those of you who are arguing that he is fully crippled in the legs (quote: dai tenshi "lost his legs", "exerting himself incredibly") should pay closer attention to the details of the photo. His right hand is not fully grasping the arm of the chair, at his age it would be a near impossiblility to support your weight holding the chair in that manner. I don't wish this to sound like I want to degrade the impact or the effort that man made for his country.
I think that it is a thought provoking photo but I think that those of you who are arguing that he is fully crippled in the legs (quote: dai tenshi "lost his legs", "exerting himself incredibly") should pay closer attention to the details of the photo. His right hand is not fully grasping the arm of the chair, at his age it would be a near impossiblility to support your weight holding the chair in that manner. I don't wish this to sound like I want to degrade the impact or the effort that man made for his country.
A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Salinger, there is no proof that the man in the picture has no legs or that he was injoured in war. You are absolutly right here. The poem was not nessisarily about him. But it fit well with the picture.
It can be compared to a song that you think is really good, and then the recording artist does this really stupid (to you) video for the song. The two may not go together very well but the message is what counts.
Salinger, there is no proof that the man in the picture has no legs or that he was injoured in war. You are absolutly right here. The poem was not nessisarily about him. But it fit well with the picture.
It can be compared to a song that you think is really good, and then the recording artist does this really stupid (to you) video for the song. The two may not go together very well but the message is what counts.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
It might do some good to consider that these people actually went to the trouble of GOING to that rally, perhaps that in itself is an act of respect.
Also, civilians aren't generally taught the conventional ways of showing respect (ie standing when the flag passes, saluting, etc). Kids aren't even taught the Pledge of Allegiance anymore in grade schools. I wouldn't know the proper ways to show respect for our nation (things like taking off my hat, standing, hand over heart, saluting, etc) if I hadn't been in Boy Scouts.
On the flip side Ray, you might want to consider that the majority of normal people don't take the time to learn what the traditions are, while Marines have it drilled into them. I am playing Devil's Advocate here in assuming that the crowd (with the exception of the wheelchair guy.... presumably a Veteran?) doesn't know you're supposed to stand as the flag passes, but it's a possible explanation. Someone probably wouldn't waste the effort to go to a rally and just "sit" in protest, it seems a little odd to me.
It might do some good to consider that these people actually went to the trouble of GOING to that rally, perhaps that in itself is an act of respect.
Also, civilians aren't generally taught the conventional ways of showing respect (ie standing when the flag passes, saluting, etc). Kids aren't even taught the Pledge of Allegiance anymore in grade schools. I wouldn't know the proper ways to show respect for our nation (things like taking off my hat, standing, hand over heart, saluting, etc) if I hadn't been in Boy Scouts.
On the flip side Ray, you might want to consider that the majority of normal people don't take the time to learn what the traditions are, while Marines have it drilled into them. I am playing Devil's Advocate here in assuming that the crowd (with the exception of the wheelchair guy.... presumably a Veteran?) doesn't know you're supposed to stand as the flag passes, but it's a possible explanation. Someone probably wouldn't waste the effort to go to a rally and just "sit" in protest, it seems a little odd to me.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
addict
522 posts
Location: Berlin
522 posts
Location: Berlin
Posted:
Spanish flag? well, it is a flag I would respect and honour, but only in an extreme case when necessary and if it held my full ideological support- this would have to include my support of the government and its actions.
About a year ago, the fairly right-wing government (supporting the war despite 90% of the population being against it) placed a massive flag in the centre of one of the main squares- I personally hated that. It seemed completely unnecessary, and I would have no qualms about pulling it down if it weren't so damn high. It seems to me rather sad when people feel the need of a flag to establish who they are within their own country (talking about the flag in madrid, not the parade, although when i worked in miami i couldn't go anywhere without people having flags on their rooftops).
I am proud of madrid, but do not presume for it to be the epitomy of perfection or always in the right. I pride myself in the open nature of the people and their pride in showing how they feel (largest anti-war protests in the world...). Generally speaking I feel that the people here know their history and although they aren't afraid to say they don't know about something they will feel embarassed, ignorant and will go and find out about it.
As for the picture, I know a lot of old people in england and in spain who would make the effort the man in the picture is making, however I think many people wouldn't for a good reason- they are from a younger generation that never experienced the repression/need for patriotism that is such a driving force for others. It's not that they love their country any less, but that they take it for granted and feel no need to show anyone else (until the world cup of course!). I think patriotism is a personal thing, and should not be forced on others.
Spanish flag? well, it is a flag I would respect and honour, but only in an extreme case when necessary and if it held my full ideological support- this would have to include my support of the government and its actions.
About a year ago, the fairly right-wing government (supporting the war despite 90% of the population being against it) placed a massive flag in the centre of one of the main squares- I personally hated that. It seemed completely unnecessary, and I would have no qualms about pulling it down if it weren't so damn high. It seems to me rather sad when people feel the need of a flag to establish who they are within their own country (talking about the flag in madrid, not the parade, although when i worked in miami i couldn't go anywhere without people having flags on their rooftops).
I am proud of madrid, but do not presume for it to be the epitomy of perfection or always in the right. I pride myself in the open nature of the people and their pride in showing how they feel (largest anti-war protests in the world...). Generally speaking I feel that the people here know their history and although they aren't afraid to say they don't know about something they will feel embarassed, ignorant and will go and find out about it.
As for the picture, I know a lot of old people in england and in spain who would make the effort the man in the picture is making, however I think many people wouldn't for a good reason- they are from a younger generation that never experienced the repression/need for patriotism that is such a driving force for others. It's not that they love their country any less, but that they take it for granted and feel no need to show anyone else (until the world cup of course!). I think patriotism is a personal thing, and should not be forced on others.
Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Heh Did you not read the two words "I agree" at the very top of my post. All I am argueing about is your impulse to assault the people sitting down. You seem to think you have some sort of right to randomly assault people.
Heh Did you not read the two words "I agree" at the very top of my post. All I am argueing about is your impulse to assault the people sitting down. You seem to think you have some sort of right to randomly assault people.
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
quote:I think this statement following your "I agree" established a sense of sarcasm to the whole post... you might not have meant it that way but it could be taken out of context by someone who is passionate about their beliefs.
Also I would say violence towards people who don't conform to american patriotism is an american tradition, one you seem to be interested in upholding.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
KOB, why would you not honor your flag every day?
I mean if you are willing to honor it sometimes, why not all the time. What occasion makes your flag better than others?
If you are proud of Madrid for its anti war protests, would you feel pride if it was pro war?
I mean, you did say,
I think your pride has more to do with the greater public opinion than actual pride. That is my opinion and you have every right to feel that way. I am not trying to change anythign in the least.
Astar, I dont remember reading where you said that you agreed with me, and your edit of the post really, makes me think that things were changed to support your latest post. If not, then I am wrong and just missed it, and apologise for thinking ill of you.
KOB, why would you not honor your flag every day?
I mean if you are willing to honor it sometimes, why not all the time. What occasion makes your flag better than others?
If you are proud of Madrid for its anti war protests, would you feel pride if it was pro war?
I mean, you did say,
quote:If they felt pro war would you still feel pride?
I pride myself in the open nature of the people and their pride in showing how they feel
I think your pride has more to do with the greater public opinion than actual pride. That is my opinion and you have every right to feel that way. I am not trying to change anythign in the least.
Astar, I dont remember reading where you said that you agreed with me, and your edit of the post really, makes me think that things were changed to support your latest post. If not, then I am wrong and just missed it, and apologise for thinking ill of you.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Nah that edit was made about 30 seconds after I made the post.
Nah that edit was made about 30 seconds after I made the post.
addict
522 posts
Location: Berlin
522 posts
Location: Berlin
Posted:
Nothing makes "my" flag better than any other, and that is why I would not honour it all the time, only when I believe it is in the right (with respect to Iraq I would be very variable in supporting the flag- depending on whether I thought it stood for the government or the people at the time). Quite frankly I would support any flag that I thought stood for an honourable cause (such as supporting the US/Nato when they went into Kosovo).
My pride would be fairly hurt if I saw everyone marching for the war, but that wouldn't really happen would it? I mean I've never seen a "pro-war" rally, supporting soldiers from home maybe... but pro-war? have you seen one?
If they were marching for war, i could be sure that the vast majority of them had a lot of knowledge about the situation and had made a decision based on that rather than going with the flow.
-I have seen a relatively large amount of interviews of american soldiers, and quite a few of them think they are going in after bin-laden or cos of S11 as well as saddam or don't really have that good an idea except they are "liberating"...
I guess i should clarify what I mean in your quote, I think the pride stems more from the point of view that they do not support the government and are in no way shape or form feeling or viewed as unpatriotic by demonstrating their opinion. I get the impression if you said you were anti-war in the US lots of people would disrespect you.
[ 24. April 2003, 00:32: Message edited by: King Of Bongo ]
Nothing makes "my" flag better than any other, and that is why I would not honour it all the time, only when I believe it is in the right (with respect to Iraq I would be very variable in supporting the flag- depending on whether I thought it stood for the government or the people at the time). Quite frankly I would support any flag that I thought stood for an honourable cause (such as supporting the US/Nato when they went into Kosovo).
My pride would be fairly hurt if I saw everyone marching for the war, but that wouldn't really happen would it? I mean I've never seen a "pro-war" rally, supporting soldiers from home maybe... but pro-war? have you seen one?
If they were marching for war, i could be sure that the vast majority of them had a lot of knowledge about the situation and had made a decision based on that rather than going with the flow.
-I have seen a relatively large amount of interviews of american soldiers, and quite a few of them think they are going in after bin-laden or cos of S11 as well as saddam or don't really have that good an idea except they are "liberating"...
I guess i should clarify what I mean in your quote, I think the pride stems more from the point of view that they do not support the government and are in no way shape or form feeling or viewed as unpatriotic by demonstrating their opinion. I get the impression if you said you were anti-war in the US lots of people would disrespect you.
[ 24. April 2003, 00:32: Message edited by: King Of Bongo ]
Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.
addict
522 posts
Location: Berlin
522 posts
Location: Berlin
Posted:
Oh, and you may be right to a certain extent about the public opinion bit, although I have gone to several protests against different things here in madrid where the cause was most definitely not the main public opinion.
Oh, and you may be right to a certain extent about the public opinion bit, although I have gone to several protests against different things here in madrid where the cause was most definitely not the main public opinion.
Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ray, the country IS the government. The same government that is working on passing the RAVE act. The same government that tried to ban glowsticks. The same government that is currently going to the Supreme Court to try to keep anti-sodomy laws on the books and prosecute two men for having sex in their own home. The same government that now has the right to detain its own citizens without trial for indefinate periods. The same government that has banned late-term abortions even if the life of the mother is at stake. The ACLU is working at its limit and many violations of the Bill of Rights have gone unchecked.
So, Ray, I don't believe that the flag of the U.S. stands for freedom. I believe it stands for a sick parody of liberty. Western Europe is the new Home of the Free.
If things don't turn around real fast and real soon, I'm leaving as soon as I finish my training. I'd go sooner, but then I wouldn't be able to finish my training.
Ray, the country IS the government. The same government that is working on passing the RAVE act. The same government that tried to ban glowsticks. The same government that is currently going to the Supreme Court to try to keep anti-sodomy laws on the books and prosecute two men for having sex in their own home. The same government that now has the right to detain its own citizens without trial for indefinate periods. The same government that has banned late-term abortions even if the life of the mother is at stake. The ACLU is working at its limit and many violations of the Bill of Rights have gone unchecked.
So, Ray, I don't believe that the flag of the U.S. stands for freedom. I believe it stands for a sick parody of liberty. Western Europe is the new Home of the Free.
If things don't turn around real fast and real soon, I'm leaving as soon as I finish my training. I'd go sooner, but then I wouldn't be able to finish my training.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posted:
hmmm, my point got lost or over looked, I'll reiterate without that pesky picture as a referance.
I see a lot of "well you support the government so you must be a faschist/imperialist/warmonger" and when someone in said camp (the one being reffered to as warmongery) says "hey, that's not cool, show some respect alright" the response is all too often adressing "the government" and not the person who asked for you to show some courtesy.
The thing is by not showing respect you insult that person, believe it or not dissrespect is an insult. Now, what I don't appreciate is this indignant "how dare you" attitude that I see from people when a soldier says "hey, I'm willing to die for you."
You can hide behind "well you fought for the right for me to not respect you", but guess what he also fought for his right to feel insulted when you don't respect him.
I hope this is getting through.
If I say "hey, show some respect to the soldiers who have and are fighting" I'm not a damned government mouth piece, I respect the soldiers and I feel that they should be respected (you can insert flag for soldiers if ya like, BTW). When I ask for some respect I'm not doing it for "the American imperialist regime" or "murderous capitalism" I and those soldiers are damned individuals as well (a concept upon which our society is strongly based, thank you) and when you write us off as "tools of the man" or "right wing, neoconservative, nazi, uber christians" (I'm fairly on the Buddhist side myself thank you very much, also I'm rather disabled which puts nazis high up on my "ick" list, don't ever call me a nazi) it insults us, something we have every RIGHT to be (insulted that is).
Side note: Lightning, sodomy laws are all state legistlation (which I might add have been slowly getting written out of the books). All laws concerning marriage are state; example, in Hawaii it is legal for men to marry. Thing is, those conservative you obviously hate so much have just as much right to get angry about things they find unjust as you do. While I agree with you that many of those laws are stupid, that doesn'tt mean the people who feel they aren't don't have the right to voice their opinions (and chances are they're gonn get stuffed, progress is kind of a constant thing for our species and society in particular, if you don't believe me ask your great grandparents).
Also, never heard of the RAVE act, link please. And any law to ban glowsticks is more than doomed to fail, that aside it's a local or state thing.... not federal, make the distinction buddy.
Federal dictates whole country and state allows a certain sized community to dicate itself within those limits then cities within states and so on allowing communities to be as they want to be.
Bubble King, your signature is really really pathetic. What do you suggest? Socialism, Communism, perhaps a Monarchy is in order!
Capitalism kills less than communism, ask survivors of the Stalin era in Russia and the Mao Tse Dong era in China (bboth of whom easily beat out the nazis for number of folks killed on their own thank you very much).
But hey, you might not be saying communism, could be anarchy or the city-state thing I've heard so much about on these obards (something about governments never being larger than state sized) excuse me while I don't agree even in the most miniscule of ways.
Good grief.... wow, that got a bit more ranty than I expected it to get....
Anyways, just remember my original point.... if I had one
[ 24. April 2003, 19:37: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]
hmmm, my point got lost or over looked, I'll reiterate without that pesky picture as a referance.
I see a lot of "well you support the government so you must be a faschist/imperialist/warmonger" and when someone in said camp (the one being reffered to as warmongery) says "hey, that's not cool, show some respect alright" the response is all too often adressing "the government" and not the person who asked for you to show some courtesy.
The thing is by not showing respect you insult that person, believe it or not dissrespect is an insult. Now, what I don't appreciate is this indignant "how dare you" attitude that I see from people when a soldier says "hey, I'm willing to die for you."
You can hide behind "well you fought for the right for me to not respect you", but guess what he also fought for his right to feel insulted when you don't respect him.
I hope this is getting through.
If I say "hey, show some respect to the soldiers who have and are fighting" I'm not a damned government mouth piece, I respect the soldiers and I feel that they should be respected (you can insert flag for soldiers if ya like, BTW). When I ask for some respect I'm not doing it for "the American imperialist regime" or "murderous capitalism" I and those soldiers are damned individuals as well (a concept upon which our society is strongly based, thank you) and when you write us off as "tools of the man" or "right wing, neoconservative, nazi, uber christians" (I'm fairly on the Buddhist side myself thank you very much, also I'm rather disabled which puts nazis high up on my "ick" list, don't ever call me a nazi) it insults us, something we have every RIGHT to be (insulted that is).
Side note: Lightning, sodomy laws are all state legistlation (which I might add have been slowly getting written out of the books). All laws concerning marriage are state; example, in Hawaii it is legal for men to marry. Thing is, those conservative you obviously hate so much have just as much right to get angry about things they find unjust as you do. While I agree with you that many of those laws are stupid, that doesn'tt mean the people who feel they aren't don't have the right to voice their opinions (and chances are they're gonn get stuffed, progress is kind of a constant thing for our species and society in particular, if you don't believe me ask your great grandparents).
Also, never heard of the RAVE act, link please. And any law to ban glowsticks is more than doomed to fail, that aside it's a local or state thing.... not federal, make the distinction buddy.
Federal dictates whole country and state allows a certain sized community to dicate itself within those limits then cities within states and so on allowing communities to be as they want to be.
Bubble King, your signature is really really pathetic. What do you suggest? Socialism, Communism, perhaps a Monarchy is in order!
Capitalism kills less than communism, ask survivors of the Stalin era in Russia and the Mao Tse Dong era in China (bboth of whom easily beat out the nazis for number of folks killed on their own thank you very much).
But hey, you might not be saying communism, could be anarchy or the city-state thing I've heard so much about on these obards (something about governments never being larger than state sized) excuse me while I don't agree even in the most miniscule of ways.
Good grief.... wow, that got a bit more ranty than I expected it to get....
Anyways, just remember my original point.... if I had one
[ 24. April 2003, 19:37: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]
No one knows me like I do.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
KoB, thanks for your input, and your right, I have never ever seena pro war rally. Support the troop, yes, but an actual pro-war rally nope. You wernt really supposed to ask that
Everybody has their own personal views as to why they are in Iraq, I mean lots of people think that it is all about oil, so whats wrong with someone thingking that they are "liberating"?
Mike, you know you are half right, the government is the people but the people dont make the decisions in the government. They elect what they think will be good leaders and do what the majority of the people want.
Who ever said that all decisions made by the government were right were really crappy liars!
The RAVE Act is a bad idea, banning glowsticks is a bad idea, you cant say the whole government is messed up becasue they think up things that you dont agree with. If you think that they will make a stupid law, get off your butt and loby against it. Call your Senitor and Congressman mulitple times a day telling them not to pass the law. Get pettitions signed, go to protests, but dont say that every idea is wrong when only a few are.
You are free to believe what you will, and dont worry, I'll make sure of that!
Mike, I am sure there are pleanty of countries out there that need a good Doc. Happy trails.
Dai, I agree with you completly, though I doubt many will follow suit.
KoB, thanks for your input, and your right, I have never ever seena pro war rally. Support the troop, yes, but an actual pro-war rally nope. You wernt really supposed to ask that
Everybody has their own personal views as to why they are in Iraq, I mean lots of people think that it is all about oil, so whats wrong with someone thingking that they are "liberating"?
Mike, you know you are half right, the government is the people but the people dont make the decisions in the government. They elect what they think will be good leaders and do what the majority of the people want.
Who ever said that all decisions made by the government were right were really crappy liars!
The RAVE Act is a bad idea, banning glowsticks is a bad idea, you cant say the whole government is messed up becasue they think up things that you dont agree with. If you think that they will make a stupid law, get off your butt and loby against it. Call your Senitor and Congressman mulitple times a day telling them not to pass the law. Get pettitions signed, go to protests, but dont say that every idea is wrong when only a few are.
You are free to believe what you will, and dont worry, I'll make sure of that!
Mike, I am sure there are pleanty of countries out there that need a good Doc. Happy trails.
Dai, I agree with you completly, though I doubt many will follow suit.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
There are three themes that stick out poignantly in my mind about the original point of the thread ...
1.Who are you to decide whether I am a good patriot or whether I am grateful to the people who died to birth and protect this country?
2.Freedom is not a gift or something you are given.We are all born free and only those afraid to die will tolerate others imposing on it.
3.In the end of it all why does it really matter anyway? Hypothetically speaking, if there is a heaven and I were to reach it would God shun me for not standing at a parade? Or for not showing my feelings the way I'm told I'm supposed to.
All in my opinion
[ 25. April 2003, 12:32: Message edited by: that damn poiaholic ]
quote:What else is new.
Originally posted by DaiTenshi:
Good grief.... wow, that got a bit more ranty than I expected it to get....
There are three themes that stick out poignantly in my mind about the original point of the thread ...
1.Who are you to decide whether I am a good patriot or whether I am grateful to the people who died to birth and protect this country?
2.Freedom is not a gift or something you are given.We are all born free and only those afraid to die will tolerate others imposing on it.
3.In the end of it all why does it really matter anyway? Hypothetically speaking, if there is a heaven and I were to reach it would God shun me for not standing at a parade? Or for not showing my feelings the way I'm told I'm supposed to.
All in my opinion
[ 25. April 2003, 12:32: Message edited by: that damn poiaholic ]
member
13 posts
Location: Abroad
13 posts
Location: Abroad
Posted:
There I was listening to the radio (in this wonderfully rewarding capitalist paradise) and the news reader announces that 3000 children die every day from malaria which could be prevented with a $4 mosquito net. And I thought about the cruise missiles, worth $1 million each, dropped on Iraq. Could there be a connection? So when someone tries to claim that socialism is a nasty thing to aim for I think about how they must be wearing blinkers with their fingers in their ears at the real horrors of capitalism.
Given that the whole world is part of the capitalist system and this is taking the world to environmental catastrophe as we sit here I'd say that we have had the choice made for us. It's either the barbarism of exploitation and wars we have now or we try to do something collectively to make a safe and happy world. I'd rather be doing something about it and trying to direct the future to a nicer one than sitting back going "nothing will ever work, its useless, this is as good as it gets etc etc". Positive action rather than negative jeering is so much more fun.
As for Stalin, I think you'll find that there is a river of blood between those who made the Russian revolution and his bloody rule. He murdered almost all of the original Bolshevik leadership, including Trotsky, and socialism is workers control not control of workers. Look a little deeper at the underlying reality of a regime before just accepting what it says about itself - otherwise you'd think North Korea was a democracy and that the USA is the Land of the Free. So, when Stalin or Mao claimed to be socialist, check out what the workers thought before believing them. We need to learn lessons from history rather than just give up.
A little aside on the subject of conservative opinions before I go and foment dissent amongst the proletariat. Yes, of course, right wing people can have opinions just as left wingers but in general we are individuals with tiny voices and hardly any power to put our opnions into practice. This is why we need to have demonstrations and strikes when we want to be heard as together we are more powerful. Conservatives on the whole do not demonstrate or strike since they do not need to. The media is controlled by them, the police are controlled by them, schools are run by them and they can always use guns to make their point if we are being too bolshy. We all have the one vote but some peoples voices can be very loud when governments are listening. I think the oil barons are being listened to as is Ariel Sharon judging from the news.
I would define my politics as Hedonistic Marxism and workers revolution as the only political strategy worth using to change the world. I hope that clears any uncertainty as to where I stand.
There I was listening to the radio (in this wonderfully rewarding capitalist paradise) and the news reader announces that 3000 children die every day from malaria which could be prevented with a $4 mosquito net. And I thought about the cruise missiles, worth $1 million each, dropped on Iraq. Could there be a connection? So when someone tries to claim that socialism is a nasty thing to aim for I think about how they must be wearing blinkers with their fingers in their ears at the real horrors of capitalism.
Given that the whole world is part of the capitalist system and this is taking the world to environmental catastrophe as we sit here I'd say that we have had the choice made for us. It's either the barbarism of exploitation and wars we have now or we try to do something collectively to make a safe and happy world. I'd rather be doing something about it and trying to direct the future to a nicer one than sitting back going "nothing will ever work, its useless, this is as good as it gets etc etc". Positive action rather than negative jeering is so much more fun.
As for Stalin, I think you'll find that there is a river of blood between those who made the Russian revolution and his bloody rule. He murdered almost all of the original Bolshevik leadership, including Trotsky, and socialism is workers control not control of workers. Look a little deeper at the underlying reality of a regime before just accepting what it says about itself - otherwise you'd think North Korea was a democracy and that the USA is the Land of the Free. So, when Stalin or Mao claimed to be socialist, check out what the workers thought before believing them. We need to learn lessons from history rather than just give up.
A little aside on the subject of conservative opinions before I go and foment dissent amongst the proletariat. Yes, of course, right wing people can have opinions just as left wingers but in general we are individuals with tiny voices and hardly any power to put our opnions into practice. This is why we need to have demonstrations and strikes when we want to be heard as together we are more powerful. Conservatives on the whole do not demonstrate or strike since they do not need to. The media is controlled by them, the police are controlled by them, schools are run by them and they can always use guns to make their point if we are being too bolshy. We all have the one vote but some peoples voices can be very loud when governments are listening. I think the oil barons are being listened to as is Ariel Sharon judging from the news.
I would define my politics as Hedonistic Marxism and workers revolution as the only political strategy worth using to change the world. I hope that clears any uncertainty as to where I stand.
Capitalism Kills - Kill Capitalism
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Socialisim, is a great theory. A theory it is and will always remain. In fact, only one society in the history of the world achived true socialisim. That was a very small church, spoken of in the book of Acts in the Bible. I am sure alot of you dont believe a word that I am saying but I hold it true.
Socialism/communisim fails because of human greed. That is why the Russians are in such bad condition, thats why during the Cold War, Russia flounderd.
It is nothing more than a dream, unachievable because nobody now days has the heart or the faith to do it.
Good idea, bad judgment.
By your definition, he would be a conservative. He controles the media.
Democracy, is also a dream. In a true democracy the people tell the government what they want it to do. There are no true democracies anywhere in the world.
There are however Republics. Where the people choose leaders who they feel will do what they want them to do, without asking.
Parliments and Congresses are Republics, who ever their figure head is be it president or queen really doesnt matter. They are more scapegoats when things dont go as planned.
Wow we have gone way off topic ehh??
Socialisim, is a great theory. A theory it is and will always remain. In fact, only one society in the history of the world achived true socialisim. That was a very small church, spoken of in the book of Acts in the Bible. I am sure alot of you dont believe a word that I am saying but I hold it true.
Socialism/communisim fails because of human greed. That is why the Russians are in such bad condition, thats why during the Cold War, Russia flounderd.
It is nothing more than a dream, unachievable because nobody now days has the heart or the faith to do it.
Good idea, bad judgment.
quote:So, Hue Heffner, would he be a conservative? You can not deny his vast grip of the midia, yet you can also not deny that his topic is most definatly not a conservative.
Conservatives on the whole do not demonstrate or strike since they do not need to. The media is controlled by them,
By your definition, he would be a conservative. He controles the media.
Democracy, is also a dream. In a true democracy the people tell the government what they want it to do. There are no true democracies anywhere in the world.
There are however Republics. Where the people choose leaders who they feel will do what they want them to do, without asking.
Parliments and Congresses are Republics, who ever their figure head is be it president or queen really doesnt matter. They are more scapegoats when things dont go as planned.
Wow we have gone way off topic ehh??
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Well, they can. but they'd be a bit rubbish
EDIT: doh! just realised you said pretty much exactly the same thing later in your post. Note to self: read before reply
quote:if you replace 'socialism' with 'capitalism' or 'democracy' the statement remains equally true. None of these ideals can be totally implemented without comprimises.
Originally posted by Raymund P.:
Socialisim, is a great theory. A theory it is and will always remain
Well, they can. but they'd be a bit rubbish
EDIT: doh! just realised you said pretty much exactly the same thing later in your post. Note to self: read before reply
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
hehe I wont say nothin' cause I do that all the time hehehehe
hehe I wont say nothin' cause I do that all the time hehehehe
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
104 posts
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posted:
..... Hedonistic Marxism, huh?
Cute, as for a worker's revolution: no.
In order to lead and plan a stable and capable revolution, one must devote serious study into the various fields required: leadership, politics, history, economics, philosophy, and various revolutionary strategms ranging from non-violent protest to out and out terrorism and guerilla warfare. The very notion of a "worker's revolution" is a paradox in that in order to have a sucessful revolution at least some of those "workers" must stop "working" and devote serious study to these things I've mentioned and become leaders and revolutionaries. There-in lies the problem; it is no longer the "worker's" revolution so much as it is the revolution of the former "workers" who are now the leaders (there were only a few thousand bolsheviks involved, and hell they didn't even do they hard part, the Tsar had been toppled for nearly a year when the "revolted").
And there's another thing. You might think I'm being patronizing by putting quotes around the word worker- I am-, but I do have a reason; what exactly is a worker? Factory workers work. Miners work. Janitors, waiters, and door men all work. However, do doctors not work? Do lawyers not work? Do soldiers, teachers, artisans, designers, engineers, astronauts, radiologists, performers, policemen, farmers, shop owners, factory foremen, analysts, stock brokers, car salesmen, secretaries, bar tenders, club owners, marketing specialists, geneticists, pharmacists, diplomats, translators, reporters, and even CEOs (you only hear about the bad ones- a minority- and the fact is they actually do work or they wouldn't be where they are, don't even try to tell me otherwise) not work?
Fact is almost everyone is a "worker", who exactly are the PHD holding psychiatrist workers supposed to revolt against? I'm sorry but unless you're planning on leading a crusade against hobos, the elderly, little children, and the old rich (the ones I'm sure you hate the most) you don't have much of a "revolution" and even then all of those people you "over throw" will soon be replaced and life will return to the way it simply is.
Aside from that, I'm not up for killing someone off, "reeducating" them, or making them as poor as I am (not that bad off) just because they drive a better car. It sets a pretty bad precedent man. I mean come on, why should I work my ass off in life for a bigger lawn or nicer house if in the end someone's just gonna come along and take it away from me in the name of the people? Don't give me any of that "we'll work for each other" or "everyone will just get wht they need" crap because that takes a lot away from life and- like the religion Marx so despises- sets humanity against its very nature.
Marxism, while not as old as the catholic church, Islam, Buddha, or Hinduism is in my mind no different in that particular respect. However, it is the most naive.
Have a nice revolution.
..... Hedonistic Marxism, huh?
Cute, as for a worker's revolution: no.
In order to lead and plan a stable and capable revolution, one must devote serious study into the various fields required: leadership, politics, history, economics, philosophy, and various revolutionary strategms ranging from non-violent protest to out and out terrorism and guerilla warfare. The very notion of a "worker's revolution" is a paradox in that in order to have a sucessful revolution at least some of those "workers" must stop "working" and devote serious study to these things I've mentioned and become leaders and revolutionaries. There-in lies the problem; it is no longer the "worker's" revolution so much as it is the revolution of the former "workers" who are now the leaders (there were only a few thousand bolsheviks involved, and hell they didn't even do they hard part, the Tsar had been toppled for nearly a year when the "revolted").
And there's another thing. You might think I'm being patronizing by putting quotes around the word worker- I am-, but I do have a reason; what exactly is a worker? Factory workers work. Miners work. Janitors, waiters, and door men all work. However, do doctors not work? Do lawyers not work? Do soldiers, teachers, artisans, designers, engineers, astronauts, radiologists, performers, policemen, farmers, shop owners, factory foremen, analysts, stock brokers, car salesmen, secretaries, bar tenders, club owners, marketing specialists, geneticists, pharmacists, diplomats, translators, reporters, and even CEOs (you only hear about the bad ones- a minority- and the fact is they actually do work or they wouldn't be where they are, don't even try to tell me otherwise) not work?
Fact is almost everyone is a "worker", who exactly are the PHD holding psychiatrist workers supposed to revolt against? I'm sorry but unless you're planning on leading a crusade against hobos, the elderly, little children, and the old rich (the ones I'm sure you hate the most) you don't have much of a "revolution" and even then all of those people you "over throw" will soon be replaced and life will return to the way it simply is.
Aside from that, I'm not up for killing someone off, "reeducating" them, or making them as poor as I am (not that bad off) just because they drive a better car. It sets a pretty bad precedent man. I mean come on, why should I work my ass off in life for a bigger lawn or nicer house if in the end someone's just gonna come along and take it away from me in the name of the people? Don't give me any of that "we'll work for each other" or "everyone will just get wht they need" crap because that takes a lot away from life and- like the religion Marx so despises- sets humanity against its very nature.
Marxism, while not as old as the catholic church, Islam, Buddha, or Hinduism is in my mind no different in that particular respect. However, it is the most naive.
Have a nice revolution.
No one knows me like I do.
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522 posts
Location: Berlin
522 posts
Location: Berlin
Posted:
Democratic, capitalist, consumer society- the way forwards!?
Perhaps not the best, but it works, its not "THAT" bad, and I cant see any realistic way of changing it.
Enlighten me and I will be forever committed to your cause. You have my word.
Ben
PS am a student - does that count as a worker, cos I do once in a while! never mind. I work part-time... can I count for half one?
PPS I shall now stop being obnoxious.
PPPS socialist governments such as those in europe work v well and quite frankly provide a far better lifestyle overall for everyone... I can't even begin to imagine a country calling itself 1st world without a national health service...
Democratic, capitalist, consumer society- the way forwards!?
Perhaps not the best, but it works, its not "THAT" bad, and I cant see any realistic way of changing it.
Enlighten me and I will be forever committed to your cause. You have my word.
Ben
PS am a student - does that count as a worker, cos I do once in a while! never mind. I work part-time... can I count for half one?
PPS I shall now stop being obnoxious.
PPPS socialist governments such as those in europe work v well and quite frankly provide a far better lifestyle overall for everyone... I can't even begin to imagine a country calling itself 1st world without a national health service...
Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.
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