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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted:Ok, as a Jew living in the U.S., I find this really frightening. It's not that there's a direct threat to me as a Jew, per se, but...

OK, there are certain types of psychoses where a patient will claim to be recieving special messages from G-d. In fact, this particular delusion is so common that we routinely ask patients about it when we admit them to the hospital. ("Do you feel like there are special messages being sent to you on the radio or TV? Have you been recieving special messages from G-d or any other supernatural beings?")

Also, and this is important, the religious beliefs and delusions have to be out of sync with the practices and beliefs of the religion. In this case, you will notice that Bush's own church has expressed reservations about his claims. Often, these delusions may present during recovery from substance abuse (particular alcoholism). Some experts think this may be an effect of subtle brain damage.

Well, guess what...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2921345.stm
br>
[ 07. April 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: Lightning... ]


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Astar:
How many brits in this thread smoke weed? How many know people who smoke weed? Tons of weed are comeing into your country and the police can't stop it (I realize it's been deriminalized, but before that in the height of the drug war it was still comeing in by the ton) So if criminals can smuggle in drugs which can be sniffed out by dogs they can smuggle in guns a lot easier which dogs can't even sniff for. They do smuggle in guns to. Not in the same numbers because there isn't the same market but guns are still comeing into the country. So I would say it is hopeless to try to keep them out of the country.sorry to come back to this but better late than never i hope...

i smoke weed. so do most of my friends.
the majority of weed smoked in the uk is grown here, not smuggled into the country (source: itn news 15/04.03).
we the smokers can tell because more often than not, what we buy is uncompressed, fresh, hydroponic weed.
more and more often it is people like us growing it for personal and social use - not for personal gain (profit).
hasish is imported, mainly from morrocco and india (cos thats where they know how to make it properly).
marajuana is not decriminalised and is still a class b (soon to be downgraded to class c) illegal drug.

on the topic of guns, unfortunately there are already lots and lots of illegal weapons in the uk and still the smuggling trade goes on.
i guess the fact that there are less weed smugglers for customs to catch nowdays means they can direct more of their resources to catching firearm smugglers.

i like to think of it as yet another example of us smokers doing our bit against violent crime...

... and now back to the 'right to bear arms' debate. i live in the uk and hence, have no real say in this ...


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:apparently Simian knows more about the USA constitution than 95% of Americans....and that is a SAD fact.

As a matter of fact, I do carry a pistol with me most of the time. Actually I carry a pistol in my truck, locked up of course. I have realy small ones that I can carry concealed. The only time I don't have a gun on me is when I am in a place where it is prohibited. Such as at work (government property) or in the bar, or visiting the police station (gov prop) etc. I am not paranoid of being attacked, it is more of a habit I guess. I grew up in the wilderness, where there are lots of dangerouse predators (two legged and four legged) There are large carnivores in my area of the wilderness, so it is wise to be on the safe side. As for in the city, I have always thought of myself as a good summeritan. I always have looked for any opportunity to help a person in danger. I would make a great policeman, if I didn't have to arrest people fopr stupid stuff. If I was a cop I would just go around helping people. But they don't hire cops for that stuff.

I actually did save a girl from being raped one time. I rushed in to help her, without even getting my gun first. It was very stupid to rush into an unknown situation without protection. If he had had a gun I would have been in seriouse trouble. but it all worked out. Anyways, you never know when you might need one. So, I keep one around. There are numerouse cases reported in the news where a great tragedy can be avoided if even ONE law abiding citizen has a gun with them.

A recent example is the shooting at the University of Arizona last year, a student went crazy and started shooting people, and another student went to his car and got a gun and captured the bad guy without even firing a shot, befor the police could get there.

There are numerouse other cases where nobody had a gun besides the bad guy, and lots innocent people died. The police can't be everywhere at once.

Obviously mentaly unstable people shouldn't have guns...unfornutately, if a person realy wants a gun, anywhere in the world, they can get one. Which leaves it up to the armed citizens and police to protect the populace.

In Africa, the school teachers in one country had to arm themselves, and guess what? It worked. The children didn't get terrorized by thugs with guns anymore.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:yes ray, I have watched friends waste their life away with drugs, I would have loved to be able to stop them, but you can't do that, only they can stop themselves. I am mearly arguingthat they CAN stop themselves, they have a second chance. A victim of a violent crime doesn't have that luxury. While drug may hurt peoples lives, violence DESTROYs their lives.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:let me be more specific about something, I can't be a cop becasue I wouldn't want to give out speeding ticket, and ticket for liscence being out of date, or other stuff I consider "non-life-threatening" I would want to be a cop who only protected poeple, not primarily make money for the governmet (which is realy what most police are doing, that is why they have ticket quotas)

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Ray again you missed the point. He is saying it is shocking that a country that 1,284,303,705 people (20% of the world population) has a lower prison population then a nation with 280,562,489 people (1/5 the population of china)

That statistic by it's self is pretty powerful. Now if you consider the fact that china is a communist state where you have no rights and which has such harsh legal penalties it would make america's legal penaltys seem minor. If america was a reasonable country you would think they would have LESS people in prison then a country so massivly bigger.

I would also like to point out that I am not trying to say china is a better place to live then america and im pretty sure santana isn't doing that either. Im just saying "WTF is going on here?"

[ 17. April 2003, 05:36: Message edited by: Astar ]


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yep missed that point, I am so glad I have you here to correct me and point things out </endsarcasim>

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: I have watched friends waste their life away with drugs, I would have loved to be able to stop them, but you can't do that, only they can stop themselves. I am mearly arguing that they CAN stop themselves, they have a second chance. A victim of a violent crime doesn't have that luxury. While drug may hurt peoples lives, violence DESTROYs their lives.
And I'm arguing that a drug dealer hurts more than just one person - he's trying to run a competitive business that harms each and every consumer who does business with him, and oftentimes those around said consumer as well. I can go out and rob one gas station and scare the hell out of one employee, maybe even threaten or hurt him. A drug dealer creates a crowd of people who frequently turn to robbery and theft in order to support their habits. It's all about accountability. A violent criminal is one person, severely affecting a person or group of people. Yes, what they do is horrible. But a drug dealer encourages this sort of thing in his/her clientele, creating multiple violent criminals. That was my original thought on why a drug dealer is way worse than a violent criminal - because they CREATE MORE violent crime, even though they may not directly involve themselves in it.

A drug dealer is not some glamorized "public servant" as you seem to be implying... their products are illegal (though I thoroughly believe weed should be legalized) and it can't be said that drugs and crime do not ever go hand in hand.

As far as an individual drug user is concerned, that wasn't what I meant in my original statement, I was only referring to dealers, sorry for the mixup but I could swear I was clear on that part...


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:ok, I see what you are saying.

I think we were getting sort of blured between talking about drug dealers and drug users.

But like you said "drug dealers make people go out and commit violent crimes so they can get more drugs"

Then don't they become violent criminals instead of just being drug users? Regardless, nobody "forces" a drug addict to go out and rob. The drug and themselves do that. You can't blame one person for the actions of another. That is why murderer goes to jail, instead of his parents...

AGAIN I am not defending drug dealers. But, what they do is a lot different that violence.

You know how many people do drugs in stillwater? well, based on national statistics, it is in the several thousands. If even a small fraction of those people were going out and robbing to support their habit, we would have a lot more crime than one robbery per year, 0.25 murders per year.

There are probably 4000 drug users and 15,000 marijuana users in this town of 40,000 if even a small fraction of those people were "forced" to use robbery to support their habit, wouldn't there be a lot more street crime?

You are saying that a drug dealer "might" cause somebody to commit a violent crime, but way more people commit violent crimes for other reasons besides drug money.

Yes, there are people in this town who go around stealing stuff, I have seen it happen, I have even know a few of them (regretably) but rarely were drugs their primary motivator. More often it is simply for the money, which they spend on a wide variety of stuff, alcohol, luxury items, yes, even drugs.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I think it is important to make a distinction between soft drugs and hard drugs. I don't think there are many pot heads who are so desperate to get a gram that they go and rob granny. Marijuana isn't addictive (not physically, there is a psychological addiction, but tv is psychologically addictive to) you don't see people going out and commiting violent crimes to raise money to pay their cable bill. I would say highly addictive drugs like crack and heroin do cause violent crime but I think it's a pretty big leap to put heroin dealers and addicts in the same category as marijuna dealers and users.

The current legal system makes no distinction.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:And neither did Dantana

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:actually if you will look above, I said marijuana users number 15,000 and drug users number 4000

That IS a distinction. I absolutely agree, as anybody who has watched cheech and chong knows...weed doesn't make you want to go out and do bad things...

"hey man, lets smoke a joint and go kill....a pizza"

"hey man, lets snort some coke and go kill...some other gang members"

yes, there is a big difference.

likewise, people don't go out and kill for LSD or mushroom.

but I have seen some crazy people doing some crazy sh@t on/for methamphetamine (crank, speed). I used to know quite a few people that did that stuff, and they tended to get sort of delusional and violent sometimes.

I haven't realy known many people that did other stuff, like coke, crack, and heroine, so I realy can't say, other than what I've heard. But speed is rampant in oklahoma (there are even a lot of police officers that do it) it realy does make people loose contact with reality. I think it has a lot to do with sleep depravation more than anything. I have had friends that got started doing it, and they just waste away to nothing (phisicaly and mentaly) it realy is sad to watch. I had one friend who went from 220 pound to 170 pounds in a year. he realy does try to kick the habit, but it is all around there and just like ciggarette smokers, it is hard to stop when everybody around you is doing it.

I know I may have come off wrong. I realy do have a stong aversion for dealers of those hard drugs like meth. i guess I sort of see it as pretty immoral (as opposed to just illeagal) for crank dealer to be selling that stuff. I know people want it, but when they can get it easily, it easily can ruin their lives.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: the government sends marijuana smokers and crack heads to prison, and lets rapists and murderers free, so they have more room for drug dealers smoker, crackhead, dealer... i'm dizzy

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:I saw an ad once from NORML I believe, ut it could have been any other legalization organization... it was a play on the "drug users are terrorists" thing that they've been pushing lately (egads), which had the new drug tzar and it said something like "Today I had lunch with the president, met with the senate, and helped fund terrorists" of course in much more elegant and elaborate terms. The supporting quotation at the bottom stated "The drug war raises the price of drugs 16,000 times what it would normally cost, funding terrorist organizations". Its hanging on a friends wall and I could get the exact quote if anyone would like, but anyway, just thought Id share.

For anyone doing the math, that would make a pound of nuggets something like $2.00. Cheers!


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Dio:
A correction to DJ Dantana's most recent post:

A drug dealer is not someone who is merely "hurting themself," as you say. They hurt every man woman and child who they sell to. What they do could also be construed as attempted murder in many cases. Their products destroy communities, not just individuals. A violent criminal on the other hand tends to affect a small number of people in his actions... the possible exception being gang violence but even then it's not as bad as dealing drugs.I take it you support the recent fast food lawsuits, then?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Hahaha nah, I've never seen someone shoot up a bank so they could afford a Big Mac.

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted:No, but I've seen people with no health insurance present with an MI (heart attack), costing taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars.

See, the drug dealer doesn't shoot up the bank. The CEO of McDonald's doesn't cause heart attacks.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:tutut... in my humble opinion, a good social security (national health service) is one of the marks of a civilised nation. Why should anyone feel it a waste of taxpayers money to save someone's life?
don't understand.
hmmm...
never mind
that was my random comment of the day only vaguely related to a few things that have been said earlier in this thread.
(wanders off thinking how much better his life is without everyone owning guns)


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: No, but I've seen people with no health insurance present with an MI (heart attack), costing taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars.
Two things I kinda find wrong with the statement... one is that a heart attack is not a voluntary action. An at-risk person does not have a heart attack willingly, whereas someone who robs a bank does so knowing full well what his actions can result in.

The second problem I have is that the heart attack victim doesn't benefit in any way from his incident. A robber at least gains some $$ or property from his actions, and hurts other people in the process as well. An uninsured heart attack victim does not go into the ER with the intention of costing taxpayers thousands of dollars, nor does he experience any tangible benefit to the money he has drawn from the public (i.e. use it to purchase more fast food).

I do notice the similarity you're drawing between the dealer and the CEO, and it does hold some truth on a superficial level, but the original discussion was in the context of who can cause more violent crime through their actions, and who is the worse criminal (more deserving of judicial penalty in a court of law) between a violent criminal and a drug (product unspecified) dealer.

Very compelling argument, I look forward to your responses my friend.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13921
Posted:Ok, Dio. You raise a good point about my analogy.

Here's my point: If someone shoots up a bank, they should be punished for that action. I don't care whether they were trying to get money for drugs, explosives, or condoms. What counts isn't the motive, but the crime.

My point is that the drug dealer isn't responsible for the bank heist any more than Dave Thomas is responsible for our hypothetical heart attack.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Just a quick note to play devils advocate on that China stat again... Their jails are also terrible, crowded, unpleasent places where criminals trully suffer. As a result, the return rate is almost zero, litteraly. Where as American criminals get cable TV, good food, free room and board, etc. Now as a psych student, I realize that punishment in this country doesn't work because of all these dissonance factors, etc. etc. but China seems to have found a way to make it work: make punishment really REALLY bad.

And heck, while I'm at it... drug dealers are selling something, and the only thing that seperates them from merchants is the fact that a bunch of uptight white male upper middle class people who are actually the MINORITY decided it should be illegal, and that Uncle Sam doesn't make money off of it. Oh, they tried, it was the original Marijuana Tax Act, but that was an absurd shot, AND its only real purpose was to give them something to charge pot smokers / dealers with: tax evasion. Internal freedom should be as real as the measured freedoms we take for granted, and yet the FDA and railroaded treaties have stopped us short of being able to do to OURSELVES whatever we want.

Now you say theres the issue of accountability... But your own courts have ruled that that is a proposterous idea with the many lawsuits against violent video game makers with Columbine, etc. Just because some guy wants to go out and shoot up a gas stationto get money for my services, does not make ME responsible for his actions. Not big on the free will thing are ya (hehe, j/k)?

Moving on to social effects... well on second thought I'm not going to. It would take far to long to type out why I don't agree with a lot of that, and I don't want to step on anyones toes on such an emotionally charged subject, so Selah.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Well, to take it another step back toward the roots of this discussion - The issue wasn't so much who is directly or indirectly responsible for more violent crime, it was who was a more negative influence on the community

Somehow it focused more towards violent crime, since one of my opposition seems to think the act of selling and/or using drugs should not count as a punishable offense... I simply offerred the "theft to finance a habit" analogy as an example of ways drug dealers can destroy a community. There's a slew of other negative effects a drug dealer has on the community at large that I believe make him a criminal more worthy of prison residence than a meager robber or vandal.

Funny how in retrospect it seems I've gotten somewhat off-topic here


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:A man is looking through a hole in a wall. He sees the head of a donkey go by. Then he sees the tail. He says to himself "Ah HA! the head causes the tail." This is one perspective. One causes the other.

But they are actually part of the same thing. A person (a donkey), a person who has ill intentions to fellow humans. The drugs do not cause the crime. (the head does not cause the tail) The drug use and the violent crime and theft are part of the whole, part of the derranged mind that perpetrates these acts.

[ 25. April 2003, 07:53: Message edited by: DJ Dantana ]


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Or part of the society as a whole.

This a falacy. Science doesn't work like that because you can't say that one thing causes another when looking as social factors, you can only see a corelation. This is also the bull attitude about gateway drugs. Well gee I bet 100% of current drug users smoked cigarettes and drank beer before they moved on to harder drugs, so alcohol and tobacco MUST BE ILLEGAL TO SAVE OUR STREETS!

It is not the drug dealer that causes the violent crime, it is the addiction. But again, we only want to treat the symptom, not the problem. Its easier to say "We're locking you up because someone wanted your product so bad they would kill for it" than to help the individual. Hey, people kill for jackets all the time, maybe we should jail the presidents of the fashion indus... well on second thought that wouldnt be too bad. Well people kill for cars all the time so I guess we need to go arrest the car dealer for selling a product people will kill for huh?

Finally, drugs destroy poor areas because people with nothing else want that escape. It makes their lives that much more berable, but again, instead of helping them its easier to say "No, my money, oh and you can't have that anymore either". Nevermind, Im beginning to sound like Marx and I don't want to go down that road at the moment...

Besides I can already hear the hissing counterarguments to that one and I think this is way off topic now... sorry.


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:good points.


Hey no worries, this thing has been "off topic" for two weeks.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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