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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:thanks..yeah, i wonder if the author would still be saying the same thing after the bush and clinton era's.somehow I doubt it.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ok Dom what ever you want to believe believe.Talking about George Bush I exagerated to make a point. I am highly insulted that you would in essence call me a liar when you said that you doubted that I am who I say I am.This is how I feel, I feel that you attacked what I strive to defend every day, my country. I really do not care what things America has done in the past if we have been wrong then we have been wrong we can only attempt to make up for it. We can not bring back the dead. I will fight for what I am told to, that is not being led blindly that is following orders. If "the man", my supiriors tell me go take that hill it is not my place to ask "Why me?". It is my place to take that hill or die trying. Welcome to the military in geniral. "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die" I forget the author of that but it is an old Russian poem about the fight with the Kossacks.I am hurting over the loss of my aunt I am angry at those responsible. If that is why I am so defencive then so be it. If you wish to say, Dom, that I have no clue as to what is going on then so be it. I have one final question for you Dom and if it is answerd to my satisfaction it will be the end of my posts on this topic. Why if you harbor no ill tides against America did you persist in bashing America and slandering her name?And that question also applies to you Raving Lunatic.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 18 January 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Easy answers.slanderOral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.As far as I know (and I have a lot of evidence to back me up) I have made no false statements.Again, you can question a countries action without being anti that country. It is not unpatriotic to question your president, politicians and companies. If anything it'll make your country stronger if more people paid attention to what was going on. Do you not agree with that? Every word against the US is not an attack our you or your country. It's merely part of the normal course of discussion.And as I wrote before, this thread was about the US's 'war' and so as I'm against the war I legitimately bashed the people I think of as at fault, in this case the US and it's allies."Ours not to reason why Ours but to do and die." - Tennyson (Eccentric English poet of the 1800s)I personally think it's a folly to blindly place yourself into the hands of others. If you can, then that's your business. I can never, ever, be a military man. I always look into things that affect me or interest me. I seek justification and evidence to support what I see and hear, and to question blind statements and those which do not seem correct. I would especially question decisions that put my life at stake. If you don't need to do that then that's your business.Tennyson also wrote a lovely poem in memory of a lost love. Enjoy
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I envy not in any moodsThe captive void of noble rage,The linnet born within the cage, That never knew the summer woods:I envy not the beast that takesHis license in the field of time,Unfetter'd by the sense of crime,To whom a conscience never wakes;Nor, what may count itself as blest,The heart that never plighted trothBut stagnates in the weeds of sloth;Nor any want-begotten rest.I hold it true, whate'er befall;I feel it, when I sorrow most;'Tis better to have loved and lostThan never to have loved at all.[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 19 January 2002).]


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PHL9te
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Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 7th Jan 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:Hi, sorry to drop this in halfway, but the thread is 'Anti War'... No matter what the cause of the war, on either of the pond, or political or economical, the fact of the matter is that it's a war that can never be won. A war on terrorism? I was very suspicious when I heard that. The attacks on America could well have been the work of a well funded, highly organised network of dedicated terrorists, or, IMHO, they could have been the work of five loons with knives and a copy of MS Flight Sim. I don't mean in any way to say that this is any less of a tragedy, because it was a terrible thing- my condolences, Raymond... But while bombing an entire country to get hold of a few people *might* work, there are always going to be more terrorists. There will always be some damn fools prepared to throw themselves at a building, or a train, or a group of people... and it only takes one. My point is that prevention is better than a cure, and although the Allies' bombing has stopped one group they've potentially inspired a whole new generation of fanatics. Argh. That was all very gloomy, but just thought I'd see what people think...? *Goes back to amuse and distract self with glowy, spinny things* Spin on... T-------------------Think I'm in love... probably just hungry...-

It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:IMHO I do believe the author of the article that I posted would still say what he said back in the early 70's when he said it. Personally I think that he would say everything but the part about the draft dodgers, personally I do not feel that anyone sould be forced to fight. Those men and women who have no desire to fight make lousy Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, Marines.Any man who has said <B>'Tis better to have loved and lostThan never to have loved at all.</B> first off has never been in love secondly he has never lost a love. Now I do not claim to be any literature expert in any sence other than my own writings but I could have sworn that my exerpt was from a tale about the war with the Kossacks something about 'rode the 5000' or was it 500 I dunno it has been a good 6 years or more since I read that poem. '...Cannons to the left of them, cannons to the right...'Is not England a U.S. ally? (me thinks thats spelled wrong...dirn kats...) So wouldnt that put your country at fault here. IMHO I think it would but as the UK can do no wrong </sarcasim> who cares. Your country has dropped as many bombs as mine killed as many innocents as mine. Do not forget the 500+ American fighting men and women who have been killed. Not to mention the Army soldiers who were killed at the Pentagon.If you could never be a military man then please do not think you know one lick about anything to do with the military. You can not fathome the disipline it takes to be willing to place your life on the line for God, Country and Corps. I say again it is not my place to question the decisions of my leaders. You have no idea what it means to have Honor Curage and Commitment and hold them true as best that you can every day. You are a civilian and will think like one untill you join your Army or Airforce or Navy and find out what it means to take an order. You can not understand untill you have been in the shoes of someone in the military. You can try but you will fail, but contiue to try if you would like.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:PHL9te, you make a good point. But what else can we do. Send in a cop and knock kindly on the door and ask "Mr. Bin Ladin sir can we please have a word with you?" . I am sorry but it just dont work that way. None the less you could be right. The bombing of the countryside of Afgainistan could lead to other groups wanting to attack America but it could and hopfully have the oppisite affect, it could be a diterent. i.e. if you hurt us we will hurt you

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Going completely off topic here, because the topic has become a discussion between 2 people which is going nowhere.Do a quick search on "Alfred Lord Tennyson", or follow the link below. He did some great works. That memorial poem above is actually in memory not of a lost wife or lover, but the loss of Tennyson's greatest friend, Arthur Hallam.The poem you're thinking of (Into the valley of Death, Rode the six hundred) is he Charge of the Light Brigade written in 1854, from where the original 'Their's but to do and die' comes.I argue it is indeed better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. If I'd never seen the sunshine I wouldn't mind the rain. But the sunshine is too beautiful to not experience! (thanks Beth!)

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PHL9te
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Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 7th Jan 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:Raymond, you're right, and that's the problem. There is no easy way to deal with people like that.
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You can't ask nicely for him to come out and give up, but then someone like that who's prepared to sacrifice their life simply to harm other people doesn't really care about being bombed, either. A lot of people on both sides (military and civilian) have been killed in this war, and nothing has really changed. There are new people in power in Afghanistan, so the problem may go away, but there are probably new Bin Ladens popping up throughout the world as we speak. To tell you the truth I can't think of a more constructive solution than war right now, but, as mothers the world over have said "Violence never solves anything." A sweeping generalisation, I know, but I think mothers often know more than they let on.
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Dom- Portishead, right? I can only say: "Can't anybody see, We've got a war to fight? Love will find a way Regardless Of what they say How can it feel This wrong?" Spin one... TEdit: Just realised that wasn't Portishead at all, but Beth Orton. *Sigh* I was quoting Portishead. That'll teach me to try and be clever. T-------------------Think I'm in love... probably just hungry...-[This message has been edited by PHL9te (edited 19 January 2002).]


It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:mmm portishead..
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------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~


~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hey Dom in this case your right about the poem that is. Unfortunaly for your cause Dom you can not outlaw war that in it's self would become a war. You do know more about lit than I do but personally I will contine to think that it is better not to have loved than to have loved and lost. And to me someone who grew up in the high planes desert of New Mexico the sun is only beautiful till it burns ya then its just a pain on you back.He is a good writer. I must admit. Since the day I have herd that poem I have enjoyed it. That was also way before I ever had any plans of joining an branch of the military. So dont think that I have been a gun wielding mad man my whole life. Dom, about your comment of it being only us two continuing this topic it is a discussion like you said. How many participants it has will not change the fact that it is a disscussion. On a different note as a gesture of kindness I extend to you the same thing I did to Arc. If we should ever meet in person I would be happy as toad in a pond to futher disscuss this topic with you.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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toneman
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Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:just a note: phule is onejust as you think it is honorable dying for your country because it is needed to protect freedom.Others believe it is honorable to die for their cause or what they believe is their freedom.you can't just pass that off as nonsense. a person must feel VERY stongrly about something in order to commit suicide trying to further that cause. i doubt it's because someone told them a country was bad. my bet is they saw it first hand. Desperate times...You can go on being naive and ignorant, that's your perogative, however, it will get you nowhere, and only makes you look stupid. get a firm grasp! got it? now pull your head out of your ass. okay, now that you're more adjusted, think about this....Either you believe in an afterlife (whatever form it takes in your mind) or you don't. If you do, then just calm down a little bit and realize everything will be taken care of eventually. Life on Earth is short. Perhaps, IMO, we're here to realize the 'triviality' of all that we do here. If you don't get murdered, you die of cancer or starvation or whatever. We all die. Perhaps it's better to die knowing that, when you had a chance to kill, you chose to accept your death and transcendence into the other world with honor, rather than fear and hate. Understand emotion, overcome it so it doesn't consume you. We do not live to make money, build a house or raise a family. We live to understand, to love and to accept other spiritual beings for who they are, and benefit from the love and understanding that they offer.What comes around goes around, but if you push the merry-go-round, it will push you back. Take your lesson, and understand it.Now take a deep breath and sigh. Breath again. Love and Lose.... It doesn't hurt that badly. Now just relax while you grow up and understand that life isn't as sharp as it feels.

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Wren
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Location: Mt. Horeb, Wi, USA
Member Since: 28th Oct 2001
Total posts: 33
Posted:While I agree with most of what you said, toneman, I don't agree with *struggles not to make a bad pun* the way you said it.I don't think you conveyed the spirit of your post in a very positive way. I don't know, I guess it reminded me too much of the way my father talks to me, but it seemed a little harsh and condescending. Still, what you had to say was good; thanks!-------------------Wren"Well, what d'ya think we should do?" "Hrm, well, I could throw the babies out of the tower and you could catch them in a basin..." "A basin?!?" "Yes, a basin." "Well, that might just work..."

-WrenAnd that, my friends, is condensed evil.

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Sundevil
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Location: palatine, IL, USA
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 8
Posted:>>I really do not care what things America has done in the past if we have been wrong then we have been wrong we can only attempt to make up for it. We can not bring back the dead.<<This is a very good point Raymond, the past is over and done with. We cannot take back what has been done we can only try to do good in the only time that matters, the present. Very much like Karma. But there are two sides to a coin and if you say this to places We(america) have harmed then you have to say it to america from the other side, or fall prey to being hypocritical.It's hard to do, especially when the terrorists don't seem to realise that what they have done is wrong. For this reason I don't think we'll be able to get the Peace that we need. This worries me because the last guy they caught on an airplane, the one trying to light C4 explosives in his shoe, said something scarry. I don't remember word for word but i remember the idea behind it, "You may have stoped this attempt but something big is comming that you cannot stop."By just looking at the world I think he may be telling the truth. It has regressed, How many people are truely happy today. Depression is on the rise, people are quick to anger, Trust is something to be guarded. There needs to be a change,Sundevil--"The biggest mistake the catholic church made was to separate science and religion, for if religion is everything how can science be apart from it"[This message has been edited by Sundevil (edited 19 January 2002).]

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Arc
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Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Member Since: 13th Jan 2002
Total posts: 17
Posted:Hey, Raymond what's happening...I read your last email and you said "I will contine to think that it is better not to have loved than to have loved and lost."Better NOT to have loved than to have loved and lost. Ouuuuchhhhhh. This is tough one Raymond.Everyone here knows that you are a marine. A damn proud marine too. You're county has called upon you and you will go. I don't know how much of you is marine and how much of you is Raymond. But I would guess mostly marine, right now. Marine is your spirit. You'll do, without question, what ever your country asks of you. I'll bet you're probably a pretty damn good one to. Be proud and honorable. I just want you to remember that there is a Raymond side too. You know the Raymond that likes spinning poi. Don't forget about the good bits of Raymond. Take your poi were ever you go. Smuggle them if you have to. Sometime in the future when you spin, you'll find that you are in the moment. Catch yourself and I'll bet you find yourself without thought. Nothing.... peace..... Go there...spin spin spin. If some time during your career you find that it interferes with going there... , and it's climatically possible, then consider something else. Quit, leave, exit, go. If that doesn't happen.Go there...spin spin spinI tell ya, I have a very close personnal friend who is just getting on his way. See you on the road someday.Peace out.---------------------------Round and round and round they go when they stop nobody knows.Arc[This message has been edited by Arc (edited 20 January 2002).]

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MystikDancer
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Location: MD, USA
Member Since: 4th Sep 2001
Total posts: 118
Posted:Have we forgotten why we're in this war?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Arc your a good man dont change that. I have had my own follies with love. And trust me I do take my little spent/ practice glowsticks everywhere. Sorry it took so long for me to reply I was in Bangkok this weekend drunk off my rocker for most of it even spent about an hour Cambodia just over the river Kwia. Trust me there is alot of history in that area. If yall want to know about real war just do a little serch on the birdge over the river Kwia. More crap happend to those POWs then and terrorist could imagine doing to us. Lemme rephrase what I said in the first line Arc you da shiznit bro.
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Your right man I need to go outside and spin my head off for a bit then go to bed and wake up and continue on.Mystik Dancer I have not forgoten why we are in this war. It started I must admit for alot of us as revenge but now I feel that it is a noble attempt to get rid of terrorisim. Weather or not it will back fire is yet to be proven.Toneman please do not take offence in this I really really have no desire to offend you, I find you very zen like. I thank you for you words of wisdome but I think I will grieve in my own way. I will keep my emotions bottled up inside untill I am able to get to New York and then I shall grieve. I am a Christian I know I do not act it all the time but that is between myself and God not yall (just saying that so someone doesnt say ""Well you aint acting like it!"). I know where I shall go when I die and I know that I shall see my Aunt again in Heaven. I fear no man, but God.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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utilitydeamon
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Location: Saline, MI United States
Member Since: 21st Jan 2002
Total posts: 33
Posted:I think we all agree that war is a terrible thing, but sometimes its neccecary. If these terrorists are going to destroy buildings, we cant just do nothing. And negotiations do nothing. Are we going to let them dstroy our freedom and come up with excuses, or are we going to take action that works? As for innocent people dieing in Afghanastan, tens of thousands of inncoent people died here on September 11. Why should we feel bad that we accidently killed some of them while trying to kill Taliban leaders. That's nothing compared to what they did to us, and it suddenly sounds like WERE evil, WERE the bad guys for killing the innocent people. Tell me, what good does protesting do? It makes it so we dont attack these people. What happens then? More September 11's, thats what. If were going to go into war with an attitude like that, what are we fighting for? Will we give up our rights, give up our fredom, what this great nation was founded upon? Just blow it all off, saying that violence is bad? Saying that these people that helped kill 60,000 people should all be forgot about? For clearing 10 city blocks in Downtown New York, there should be no action against this?They should be forgiven? ------------------Every day for world domination[This message has been edited by utilitydeamon (edited 21 January 2002).]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Utilitydeamon, that is how I feel but none the less they should be forgiven, but those like them should not be allowed to do the same thing again. If war is the only way to stop that then I say Cry havock and unleash the dogs of war. The hounds of hell shall prosper this night and may their enimy tremble in the wake of the Truflehunden. The hell hounds known commonly as Marines. Carrey said the following " I generally "feel bad" about walking away from a cashier when the he/she has just given me more change than I was supposed to get. I wonder how I would feel if I killed an innocent child"I am sorry but you obviusly missinterpeted what I said. I ment the word genirally as to group all pilots together not to say that they were thinking ohh gee I just killed a 5 year old must suck for him. Ohh well lets go have a beer. You really must think that I am heartless.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:utilitydeamon, either you're very sarcastic, or very scary
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If you're scary, then the question is 'Tens of thousands' died on Sept 11? Where exactly? That day tens of thousand died needlessly of starvation and disease all over the world. Only about 4000 died in New York, DC and Penn as collateral damage in a war. 2 points for this never ending topic:1) When we say we're anti war and violence we mean on both sides! Nobody every said we should sit back and do nothing, but there are other ways, like addressing the causes of terrorism and reducing public support. This method has worked elsewhere, just this time the US didn't even think about doing any talking.2) The mental frameset of utilitydeamon, Raymund and Bush is almost exactly the same as most of the Taleban and Al Quaeda. There minds are already made up, and nothing will change them. They see violence as the only solution to their problems. I can imagine you guys getting on really well with Bin Laden, if you were on the same side. But as fate and politics puts you against each other there will never be an end to this problem as long as you all fail to be empathic. You're all too set upon destruction of the other as the only solution.The advantage terrorists have is that they already have nothing to live for, they're lives are already over, and so they think that by dying for a cause they can do more to further it than living. They can act better as single units against a large enemy than vice versa. And these people exist all over the world, around Arabia, Europe, America. If you ever think you're going to get them all with violence you're sadly mistaken.How do you change people's opinions? Mass media and politics normally, but in this case they're mainly supporting the blood shed. There is a lot of discussion about this, and a lot of people are talking and thinking about global issues for the first time. The seeds of dissent are growing across the Western world and thankfully they're sensible people who care more about people than politics and violence. If people like me had the same violent drive as utilitydeamon and Raymund I'd currently be happily plotting the assination of Bush for the greater good of the world. As it is that's not my cup of tea!Side note for the Brits. Anyone see Correspondent last night. Fascinating insight into the politics of Afghanistan. Basically it focused on a Taliban controlled refuge camp near Iran. The Afghan people came across as intelligent, thoughtful people who were making the best of a dire situation. With family members killed by bombing, no homes or jobs left, they could still smile and find something to be happy about. Interestingly not all the women were wearing burqas, and the only difference for the camp when the Northern Alliance took over was a change of camp commander (and the Taliban and Northern Alliance commanders were both old friends). Really interesting and heart moving program.


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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Thanks to NYC for this [image]http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif">[/image]From Martin Luther King's 'I have a Dream' speech.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom said and I quote..." Only about 4000 died in New York, DC and Penn as collateral damage in a war." ... true 4000 or so died I do not know the exact amount but collateral damage. Man fuck you, my aunt collateral. Before it had just been my temper that had gotten the best of me. I am about ready to throw temper out the window and just go with blind rage. You obviusly are missing a heart on that line. Now Dom who are you to say what one thinks. How do you know that he did not consider a different solution to war. He asked the Talliban to turn over a criminal long before he orderd us to start droppin bombs and he also gave several deadlines for Al Quida to surrender. Did either of them do it? Nope, they chose to stay in their holes and have us come get them. I applaud all of your efforts to find preventitive measures against terroisim but what can preventitive measures do when the strike has allready happend? Where where you and your preventitive measures when Timothy McVea set loose his bomb? Or how about to prevent an even greater monstrosity say the holocaust. Let me use an example and please be linent on me with this one.Say you have an outstanding computer network and you want to protect it from hackes so you use the worlds best firewall right? No matter what you set up someone will be able to break down. There is no defence that cant be broken through and there is no wall that can not be climbed over or gone through or around.Your measures will never be enough, you can not stop some mainiac on a plane with any sort of weapon once he is on the plane. You can not serch everyone and their baggage. You can not serch every article of mail. There will always be a crack.On a more honest scale if I had the mind set of Bin Ladin I would not be in the military I would be sitting pretty with my own multi million dollar business. War is not always the answer but its all we got left right now. It is called being commited to something. Dom I honestly believe that you have no idea what it is to commit to anything. I honestly feel that you are a bandwagoner. You jump on with the latest cause and then when it stops being populer you jump on to the next wagon and so on and so on. In a month you will be screaming about baby seals and those damn eskimos (no offence to any eskimos)

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Raymund, I think you've proved my point nicely here. Sorry I had to hit you hard to prove it.I quote an Afghan refuge, Abdol Sattar, who lives in Mile 46, a refugee camp near the Iranian border:"If one American dies, the whole world hears about it. But Afghans are dying everyday and nobody pays any attention. Nobody asks who they are and how they are killed. Look at me, I've lost my wife and child and now live in dirt, and no one cares." from BBC's correspondent Programme last Sunday. Please read the article.If America says that those innocents who die in Afghanistan are unfortunate victims or collateral damage, then so are the US victims at the WTC. Either that or they'll all needless victims to be mourned by everyone. Me, I take the second option. Equality You understand that word don't you? Maybe not. A lot of people don't, or they do but fail to live true to it. Your aunt was more important to you than Abdol's wife and child, and vice versa. However to me they're all equal, all unnecessary victims of someone else's war. That rage you have when you think about your aunt, I get for everyone pretty much equally. That rage powers me to think and talk, not fight. Personally I think I'm the stronger man for it. Personal opinion.Whenever bodies are found at the WTC a great deal of respect is given, there is silence and prayer. All over Afghanistan there are pieces of bodies spread over the ground by US bombs, often there's no time to collect the pieces and provide a proper burial. When you're being bombed and you don't know when the next attack is your primary aim is to move on. Where's the respect in that? No home, no money, no food, no hope. It sickens me.Again, I'm repeating myself here, 3 time the Taliban offered to hand over senior Al Quaeda figures to an independent court in a third country. The US declined each time. Other countries such as the UK have Al Quaeda suspects. We don't hand them over to the US straight away as it's not the law. Why did the US expected Afghanistan to be different? At that time the US was treating Al Quaeda and the Taliban as 2 separate entities. And the US would have started bombing earlier, but logistically it couldn't, so don't give me that who 'We tried negotiation' crap. Bush came out with threats, nothing more intelligent than a playground bully.And I didn't say you had the same mindset as Bin Laden, you're a do'er, not a thinker. I meant the general mass and ranks of the Taliban and Al Queda. Narrow minded, prepared to die without questioning why, thinking that violence is the only answer now.I am not a bandwagoner. I spoke up against military action on September 11th. How popular do you think that is in a room of Americans, many with friends in the WTC, when emotions are running high. Over 4 months later I still have the same beliefs. Sure, I support many causes, I have opinions on many issues and a lot of them are seen as popular causes for the lefties. I do tend to pay more attention to the issue hitting the headlines at the time but that's because there's more questions being asked. That's not bandwagonning, it's called thinking about things and taking an interest in the greater world beyond ur own small worlds. Think global, act local.

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cutie poi girlie
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Location: porthtowan, truro, cornwall
Member Since: 14th Sep 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:I am tottaly against war, too. So Osama killed innocent people. But why kill more? ------------------Live every day as though it is your last, learn every day as though you'll live forever

Luv peace 'n' chicken grease Al X x

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:so simple.so right.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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PHL9te
member
Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 7th Jan 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:*Agrees with Dom and Poi Girlie* That's a good argument against war of any kind. We're attacking Afghanistan because Bin Laden killed innocent civilians in pursuit of a political goal... and isn't that the same as what Allied bombs are doing in Afghanistan? Their innocent are just as undeserving of death as those in the US. It could be argued that this makes 'us' as bad as 'them'. This sounds really harsh, but: Raymond, despite all the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland the UK never resorted to declaring war on the terrorists, and *crosses fingers* things there are starting to look up. Like Raymond said above, you'll never get all the maniacs in the world... so I have to ask, why bother to try and get them by bombing an already poor nation back into the stone age? And what with Bush's threats of 'you're either with us or against us' pushing the entire world into one big 'us' against 'them' scenario, I think there's got to be a better way. And no, I'm not just jumping on the wagon... I have strong opinions of my own, and had before this whole thing, and I'm prepared to argue for them. T-------------------"I think it's time to discuss your philosophy on drug use as it relates to artistic endeavour..."-

It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Thanks for the support guys
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The whole "with us or against us" thing put me on the same side as a lot of really clever and clued up people, but also the Taliban, which I wasn't too happy about. But as it was only the opinion of a narrow minded, gun crazy, oil greedy mind who saw a great way to win votes, I wasn't paying too much attention
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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom I hope you dont see this as a threat cuz it aint, I really wanna meet you cuz there are just some things that cant be said in a chat room or on a message forum. Any how back to ranch.I say again it is not my place to ask why me when my higher ups tell me to do something. That can get me courtmarsheled or whats called nonjudicial punishment (NJP). Hasan 10 years old "Now, because the planes have hit its buildings and people have been destroyed, America has decided to go to war with the people of Afghanistan," I know this young child will never read this but none the less nobody is at war with Afganistan. Our bombs may be dropping inside Afgani borders but we are not out to hit or kill Afganies. "Conservative estimates say 3500 civilians lost their lives." ~Same artcle that Dom postedHonestly I did not know how many innocent Afganies died but guess what I cant change it. I feel bad that they died but I can not show remorese because out of that article I did not read one Afgani that showed remorse for my dead countrymen. In fact I read the oppisite"He defends the Taleban rule and says if the people who committed the 11 September atrocities were Muslims then they are now in paradise." He is praising the actions of the terrorists, but Dom I already know what your gonna say your are gonna say something to the affect that I praise my own governments actions. To the contrary I do not condone or look highly on the deaths of the innocent. I do however highly condone and praise my fellow Marines, soldiers, seamen and airmen who have done their job and fought for their country. Those Afganies honestly got shit on and that is very sad. Dom I honestly think that you are the same as me just on the other side of the spectrum. You will not let me or anyone else tell you that this war is nessicary nor will I let you or anyone tell me that we are wrong in wanting to kill those responsible and all those who wish to help those responsible for the attacks. No crime was commited against the UK so why should the UK be given Bin Ladin. He commited a crime against us we want him and we will do all we can to get him or die trying. "Heavily-armed gunmen have attacked the US Government's information centre near the American consulate in Calcutta, killing five policemen." So tell me Dom how do you feel about that. More people killing innocent just becuase they dont like America'Two groups telephoned newspaper offices saying they carried out the attack. One caller said he was from Harkat-ul Jehad-ul Islami (HUGI), which is active in northern India, and said the attack was in protest against "the evil empire of America". 'This "Empire" strikes back. We may never win this fight against terrorisim but we sure as hell will not quit either.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom I hope you dont see this as a threat cuz it aint, I really wanna meet you cuz there are just some things that cant be said in a chat room or on a message forum. Any how back to ranch.I say again it is not my place to ask why me when my higher ups tell me to do something. That can get me courtmarsheled or whats called nonjudicial punishment (NJP). Hasan 10 years old "Now, because the planes have hit its buildings and people have been destroyed, America has decided to go to war with the people of Afghanistan," I know this young child will never read this but none the less nobody is at war with Afganistan. Our bombs may be dropping inside Afgani borders but we are not out to hit or kill Afganies. "Conservative estimates say 3500 civilians lost their lives." ~Same artcle that Dom postedHonestly I did not know how many innocent Afganies died but guess what I cant change it. I feel bad that they died but I can not show remorese because out of that article I did not read one Afgani that showed remorse for my dead countrymen. In fact I read the oppisite"He defends the Taleban rule and says if the people who committed the 11 September atrocities were Muslims then they are now in paradise." He is praising the actions of the terrorists, but Dom I already know what your gonna say your are gonna say something to the affect that I praise my own governments actions. To the contrary I do not condone or look highly on the deaths of the innocent. I do however highly condone and praise my fellow Marines, soldiers, seamen and airmen who have done their job and fought for their country. Those Afganies honestly got shit on and that is very sad. Dom I honestly think that you are the same as me just on the other side of the spectrum. You will not let me or anyone else tell you that this war is nessicary nor will I let you or anyone tell me that we are wrong in wanting to kill those responsible and all those who wish to help those responsible for the attacks. No crime was commited against the UK so why should the UK be given Bin Ladin. He commited a crime against us we want him and we will do all we can to get him or die trying. "Heavily-armed gunmen have attacked the US Government's information centre near the American consulate in Calcutta, killing five policemen." So tell me Dom how do you feel about that. More people killing innocent just becuase they dont like America'Two groups telephoned newspaper offices saying they carried out the attack. One caller said he was from Harkat-ul Jehad-ul Islami (HUGI), which is active in northern India, and said the attack was in protest against "the evil empire of America". 'This "Empire" strikes back. We may never win this fight against terrorisim but we sure as hell will not quit either.Those quotes were from the BBC news http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1774000/1774483.stm


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Why fight this war? If we don't who will, why clean the litter out of the street if we dont who will? Or will we just keep letting everything go to hell and jump on for the ride. I think not. The President did not meen either you are with America or you are agaist America he ment either you are for terrorists or your against them. The world is black and white not grey. Britten may never have openly said we are at war with the IRA but they sure as hell fought it. We just took things a step farther than the Brittish.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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cutie poi girlie
member
Location: porthtowan, truro, cornwall
Member Since: 14th Sep 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:raymond phule how can you care only about the people you knew who died? don't you even care about the afghanistanis? Just because a few of them don't show remorse doesn't mean the rest don't. please think about that. ------------------Live every day as though it is your last, learn every day as though you'll live forever

Luv peace 'n' chicken grease Al X x

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