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RavingLunatic


member


Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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valkyrie


member
Location: SLC, UT

Total posts: 2
Posted:After reading what people have to say on this subject I have to say that the world is an imperfect place. Everyone is to blame, every country is at fault, and the only person you can blame is the one you see in the mirror. The only way to stop war for once and for all would to be to annihilate the human race. We are by our very nature a war-like people. And whether we want to see it or not we all share that as human beings. My husband is a Navy SEAL and I am very proud of him and support him in everything he does. Do I support the war? Not the idea. But I am human so I guess I do after all.

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pozee
BRONZE Member since Jul 2001

old hand
Location: san diego, USA

Total posts: 886
Posted:we are all animals, and what is the basic most primal instinct of an animal?...

anyone got a light?

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Freefall


member
Location: Arcadia

Total posts: 6
Posted:Ok now here's a viewpoint from a non-english-speaking country:I live in Brazil. Since that attacks happened, every single day I hear people saying that the US deserved it. And I partly agree on that. I said PARTLY!!!!! Because yes, US's positions sometimes makes us (developing countries) very angry - like that tax on imported steel some weeks ago. And some people here like to be on the opposite side. Any opposite side.Well. I am particularlly fond of the US, I think people there are kind and warmer than people in other parts of the world (but not kinder and warmer than we brazilians are
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) Not reserved and cold and polite as Europeans for instance (note that I have travelled throughout the world and I noticed that). Yes, their patriotism sometimes is over the borders, but hey, if we dont love our country, we dont deserve living in it.As my country is completely outside of this war (supporting US yes, but not doing anything), I have this opinion:Is US guilty? Yes. They overreacted and that's never good. They insist on ruling the world and that's bad. BUT that doesnt justify the attacks.Is Osama BinLaden guilty? Yes, of course. He has been raised in the Muslim religion, that teaches very different things. Is he mad? For sure, cause he took things beyond sanity. He must be captured, judged and punished. Not by an american court. Maybe by an international court.But the Afghans shouldnt be punished for that. They are not wealthy, they havent any access to culture and education other than that the Taleban imposed them. So, hating the West is the only thing they know. They were born believing that the West is bad. So how can we blame them?We can blame Osama BinLaden, US, and the entire world!! Nobody is guiltless. The actions of all the countries led to this. We shouldnt be worrying about whos guilty and who's not, but how to solve this.Cause we've already seen that we get nothing from violence. Only more hate.Peace is not possible because war is in the nature of man. BUT we can try not to fight over stupid reasons. After all, arent we (supposedly) the only animals who can THINK and LOVE??peaceplastikgirl------------------tr0uble is my middle name


tr0uble is my middle name

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xtremravr...was here..


member
Location: amsterdam..i wish

Total posts: 337
Posted:ooookkk...im not gonna say much on this as i have avoided the whole thing. do i agree with ALOT of the american policies and such, NO!!! not by a long shot, i do want to say this, ***AMERICA DID NOT DESERVE WHAT THEY GOT!!!***maybe the country itself did deserve the world wide humiliation of the U.S. not having there shit together enough to keep 4 planes from crashing into different places. THE AMERICANS THAT DIED IN THIS "TRAGIC" EVENT DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE, NOR DID THERE FAMILIES DESERVE TO SUFFER THE WAY THAT THEY DID!!! sorry for the caps yet i am american, and i do not agree with the way things were done. this is a very touchy subject for most americans, especially when hearing things like "they deserved it"...what kind of bs is that(refraining from language as there is enough already)?!?!?! im sorry i just dont see the justification in killing nearly 5,000 innocent people...do any of you?...did hitlers mass killing of the jewish people solve any problems?!?! why would the mass killings of americans solve anything then?...i guess what i am trying to say here is many many many people have many many many different views on this subject, there is still alot of stuff happening in our country that is kind of an after shock from these events, such as K-Mart, which has been around for decades going bankrupt(sp?). history has repeated itself again in my eyes only it has been aimed at americans instead of the jewish community. this is alot bigger post than i wanted, but i guess when emotions start to flow it is best to run with them, ya know? much love to everybody and please i hope that none of you take anything at all that i have said hear to offense.p.l.u.r.r.Xtrem

Peace Luv Uni-t Respect Responsa-what?!?! Xtrem

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hmm... "America deserves what they got", I am saddend that you people out there actually think that. I feel actual and literal pain because that was said. First off those taxes help keep American families fed. If we use American made products then American families get the benifit. If that means that there has to be a tax on steel so that my future kids eat than screw you, my kid is gonna eat. Tell WTF we were supposed to do about 4 jet liners getting highjacked and crashing into things.If America deserves what happend on September 11 th then the world deserves our nukes.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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splerph
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

member
Location: Perth Australia

Total posts: 75
Posted:This is my very first post here so be kind to me
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I have just spent hours reading this thread and I find it fascinating, I haven't been able to get any work done today as a result. I gained alot of information hereot and agreed and disagreed alot. Dom I really respect your thinking and agree with your opinions. Its been really great to read your posts also the links that you have provided to back up your arguments.I noticed recently regarding the US Nuclear Hit list. Something quite ironical. Whenever Bush (or the US government)mentions nuclear weapons in relation to the US they are described as "tools for fighting a war" Yet when they are mentioned in relation to other Countries with nuclear powers they are called "Weapons of Mass destruction" To me that shows just how media can inform or misinform the general public on matters of huge importance.


Smile and the whole world smiles with you

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:xtermraver i don't think you guys were humilated or at least i didn't see it that. the way america deserved it from my prespective is that they deal out a hell of alot of shit, through wars and economic power. (at the moment there are the steel tarrifs issue which will affect economically many countries around the world, at the same time the us govt. is getting pissed with former soviot countries for banning chickens that have high levels of antibotices because its hurting amreican jobs). in new zealand after we declared ourselves neuclear free and prohibited nueclear powered ship from our waters, trade between our two countries declined dramatically as did military relations, this affected our countries economy and made a difficult transition from a protected economy to an open freemarket style much more painful. this pain may not be sudden and unexpected death. but the suffering off many people though out new zealand was increased due to the us govts. stance. i don't think america suffered much if at all from there discission. the problem: is prolonged discomfort rated less than extreme short term suffering, for me thats debatible, after awhile you've got hit back at the guy who keeps stealing 10% of your money espically if hes stealing it from everybody.they say two wrongs don't make a right. but do you just sit back and keep getting wronged all the time. only a sucker would do that.

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:the skater, was the guy in the 3000m mens race. the korea fella won the race, but was disquified by an american judge so the usa guy got promoted from second to first. everbody(the skaters) thought it was a joke, or thats what got reported here. when i say korean people were pissed, i mean they had hours on t.v. about it and if i need to get my students pissed i just mention the skating and they're off for ten minutes singing fucking usa...... that was the event to fully spark off there usa/mr bush sux arsei hope that clears it up for you.i'll ask them about corosponing with you ray, but you gotta remmeber there english is pretty limited, so to have any resonable discussion is gonna take alot of effort. don't worry i do try and stick up for you for what its worth.

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*Spinstar*


member
Location: Kansas City MO, US

Total posts: 6
Posted:Okay, I'm just gonna jump in here and get my feet wet. "Hi, my name is Spinstar and I'm a spin-o-holic" [AA Reply]"Hi, Spinstar""I also just pulled myself out of the dark ages and finished watching Apocolypse Now for the first time."

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:valkyrie, I disagree. I don't think humans are by nature a waring race. There's examples throughout history of societies that did not wage war and lived in peace. If people sit back and think that we can't help but kill each other then we'll never change. There are people who always resort to violence, but they tend to be called psychopaths, dictators, evil, hooligans, yobs, etc...I think when people say 'the US deserved it' they really mean that the US was in need of a reminder that the rest of the world existed and that people there might not like what they're doing to other countries. The US needs to have a more thoughtful and openminded foreign policy. Unfortunately the timing of the attack was bad, and there was a warmongering buffoon as president and it all went to hell. Nobody (except a few extremists) thinks that people should have died for the US to open it's eyes.Ray, the tax money on imported steel will not go anywhere near starving people's mouths. There's still bums living homeless on your streets. The tax is solely to deter importing steel from other countries, boosting the weaker US steel industry and harming other countries economies, including the UK. However, as itsgottab points out the US is really quick to fight back when its exports are hit.splerph, thanks
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Good point. The truth is, amongst all this crap about countries developing these nasty weapons, the US has the largest number of evil weaponry and is one of the most secretive when it comes to being honest about these weapons. And the US happily sells weaponry to some awful countries who use them to murder and exploit. It's the pot calling the kettle black.See, I'm still here!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well I hope the ailiens that abducted you were umm gentle hehe!!
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Dom's mother: "Dom , I told you to stop playing in the crop circles!!"
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Ok enough harrasing Dom. *Spinstar*, you have definatly found an interesting thread here but you should look at the post called "The Official Poi Role Call". POINT FOR RAYMUND PHULE!!!Itsgottab, thank you for showing some interest in this little project, I dont really need sticking up for but sometimes my mouth needs a muzzel so feel free to kick back any of my letters that you feel as unwarented.I think that America has the right to use whoevers products they want. If I want to buy a Korean car I will but if I wanna buy a Ford I will (and did). I think that being the several million consumers that we are we can buy and sell to who we want and if somebody gets pissy because we took a different offer well then tuff nuggies. Would they like some cheese with that wine, maybe a quarter to call someone who cares?Just the same as if I dont want a Buger King burger I will go to McDonalds. Its a consumers world. Yes it may suck for smaller countries to have to strive to get their economys going but who the hell helped us over 200 years ago. Hmm nobody. Sometimes the hard way is the best way.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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toneman


member


Total posts: 195
Posted:You know, it shouldn't be a matter of who helped us. We are in a VERY powerful position, regardless of how we got here, we have and OBLIGATION to aid all of humanity. Points well taken on the US arms situation. I'm not sure how many people are aware, but weapons sales are in the top 5 $$$ for yearly sales. One must ask, who needs military weapons? My guess would be... people that intend to use them to kill other people. Between the USSR and the US, we have armed all of the worlds warring factions. Funny how Iran is now in the 'axis of evil' Bush describes, but if I remember correctly, wasn't there some kind of US gov't consiracy to sell arms to Iran illegally. I think that involved LARGE amounts of drugs as well. HHHMM. Let's see here.We Sell weapons.We Sell drugs.We routinely kill people that oppose us.We set up puppet gov'ts that do what we want.We rob poor people blind (they're the easiest!).We back democratic(elected by US!)dictatorships when it benefits us.We claim we're a christian/religious country when we're really soulless consumers.Sounds like we're a nation of hyppocrites!!Contradiction breeds change, but also makes for good targets for people with more stable (albeit, deranged) ideology.All this talk about our problems, but the people here are the ones that can change our image abroad. Stand by your values. Find some if you don't have any! VOTE!!

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nomad
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France

Total posts: 356
Posted:Raymond, no offense but you sound like an underinformed average american. Sure, it's a free world and America is free to impose tariffs on products it wants to penalize in order to protect its own economy. You know what, that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, it is SO hypocrite from the US to do so, when all we hear from 95% of US media/politics/economists is that free trade is the way to go, it's a win-win situation, and whoever think it's not is a retarded backwards protectionist. This is supposedly the modern way. The US spend a lot of time and effort spreading the word (through its sister bodies, the IMF and the WTO) around free trade and a barrier-free world. When a country says "No, we disagree, we don't want to have to buy american crap and we reserve the right to refuse/tax such products", the US goes ballistic and says "How dare you do this to us? How stupid are you to not see that this is the way to go?".I wish I could write more but I don't have the time.Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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splerph
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

member
Location: Perth Australia

Total posts: 75
Posted:Raymund what you said is really a contradiction. You said that as an American you have the right to buy or choose whatever product you want, as it is a Consumers world. Should you not then have the right to choose from a vast range not just an American range.America imposing steel tarriffs or other tarriffs will not just affect the small Countries that you mentioned but it will affect you in the long term and your freedom of choice.oops that was a bit of the Anti war thread wanst it. Sorry. Just felt a need to respond about the steel. I saw the effect that Wool tarriffs had on Australia when I was growing up.
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Smile and the whole world smiles with you

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Hey splerph, nice name.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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splerph
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

member
Location: Perth Australia

Total posts: 75
Posted:Hey Cantus
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Thank you!!! Nice of you to say so!


Smile and the whole world smiles with you

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:*Politely asks for a moment to remove the foot out of my mouth* It was a contradiction. Dang for once my mouth just doesnt seem to beable to produce a comeback or even a way to reiderate that to make it not a contradiction. Do I feel like an arse or what. I guess thats why I would rather stay out of politics, your damned if you do buy non-american goods becuase you arnt helping american families and your damned if you dont buy non-american goods because you are aiding the crippleing of a less fortunate cuntry.Could somebody please tell me why I should understand this?Look basicly this is what I feel, if plasing a tariff on forgine steel wool corn rice whatever, will make it so that Americans will buy American made goods, thus makeing it so that Americans keep jobs and keep providing for their familes, then that is a good thing. There is a reason why those teriffs are placed, America has rules and proceedures that must be followed and some if not all cost cash to keep them followed, thus raising the cost of American made goods. Now some countries do not require rules and procedures like America therefore producing cheeper productus, those teriffs make it so that the American made products can compete with the 99 cent forgine version.I think that is a good reason, now as a consumer you have the right to choose what ever you want. I think that you should be paying more for forgine goods rather than goods made localy. It makes sence, why should a cab ride accross town cost less than one down the block? That is basically what it is doing ensureing that the ride down the block is cheeper than the ride accross town.Now I know my spelling in all this sucks and I hope I did not contradict myself but if I did... ehh its not the first time!
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Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:But at the same time, America has taken a pretty hard line against countries such as Japan, who have tough trade sanctions in place to encourage their people to buy Japanese.This is exactly the contradiction that frustrates people here. I won't say that the US is alone in this. Every time Australia moves towards dismantling barriers to imports, the local industries (and often with reason) scream very loudly. At the same time, they do expect an open export market. R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well life is just one big contradiction aint it?!?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Tis indeed. The big challenge for the world is going to be in reconciling seemingly opposite concepts: - Protecting trade at home whilst having an open market - Defending a nation without warmongeringGonna be tough...R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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valkyrie


member
Location: SLC, UT

Total posts: 2
Posted:O.K. Let me clarify. We all have a basic survival instinct and along with that goes the saying, "survival of the fittest". Throughout history there have been cultures, most of these isolated from the rest of the world, that were peaceful. However history has also shown how each has been in turn subjugated and conquered by those stronger. And those cultures that exist now will in turn be corrupted. They already are. With every foray into the jungles of South America. With every well meaning anthropologist who lives as a member of a society in order to better understand them, they are being introduced to new ways of thinking. And with every day we develop new ways to kill, new ways to prove our point, secure our ideals. All without ever having to see the people we are killing. In the past we fought for our homes, our freedom, our families. We still do. Only now we are better at the killing. And we have given ourselves so many more reasons to kill. I don't think that this war is a good thing. War never is. But I don't have the power to change it. I do have the power to support my loved ones, to hope and pray they return safely to me. To raise my children to be the best they can. To live my life the best I can. And yes, I will not hesitate to kill anyone who harms me or mine. A man is walking along the beach one day and finds a bottle buried in the sand. He picks it up, rubs it, and out comes a Djinn. Being a good person, (socially concious, politically correct, recycles, helps old ladies across the street) he wishes for World Peace. And in the next instant the entire human race is wiped out. Peace on Earth, Goodwill Toward ?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Humorus and true. So what does everyone say, lets all commit mass suicide so that there can be peace on earth, umm no, I think that living in an unperfect world is better than not living at all. You can not stop a war, only the persons who started it can stop it and even then it takes both sides agreeing to it. War will never end. The outcry of any group of people will not stop anything, that my friends are the cold hard facts like it or not. So in retrospect weather you are for or against war, it really doesnt matter. You dont even have the power to save your own life, sure you can attempt to prolong it, but you cant save it. That just sucks doesnt it. I laugh at the irony of life. Life begins and it ends, that is the only thing we are garunteed on this little rock, we will come into this world and we will leave it by one means or another. Live long and prosper. Ha!I am sorry I am in a real morbid mood today. I dont really know why, ohh well, I must press on.So Itsgottab, has your class anything to say to me or was my idea blown off by all, if it was 'se la vi' such is life.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 24 March 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:BUMPImpaitent bugger aint I?!?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:There are other ways to end wars.....If there's no one left to fight then (oddly enough) there's no one left to war. Solution - kill everyone else on he planet.If the enemy has no weapons then he cannot fight. Solution - remove the enemy's weapons. Lord Kitchener tried this during the first world war by using legion upon legion of British soldiers to soak up the German bullets. Cunning plan. Hide well enough and the enemy will give up looking for you and go home.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Cantus, you are a wise man indeed, but (there always seems to be a but... or an ass but either way its still there)... take away my gun and I'll use my knife, take away my knife and I'll use my fists, take away my fists and I'll BEAT YOU TO DEATH WITH MY BLOODY STUMPS!!!!! Sorry got a bit carried away.
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Those are some of the ways to end wars and I do get your little pun there at the end. As long as there is a person there will be people, as long as there are people there will be fear, as long as there is fear there will be hatred, as long as there is hatred there will be violence and as long as there is violence there will be war. Solution? Get rid of the people. Now you may be able to stop a war but you can not stop war alltogether, my faith in the human race just isnt strong enough to believe that we can stop hateing eachother for one stinking night. I can garuntee you that even if the whole world wanted to there could not a be a dusk till dawn truce. It can not nor will it ever happen. I hate to be the berrer of bad news but sucks dont it?Ohh ya Cantus you forgot to mention that the Russians used the same tactics that the Brittish used.Just thought I'd add my own little bit of info.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 28 March 2002).]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:You know, you guys are putting forward an argument that by its very nature cannot be defeated. Because as long as enough people believe it is impossible to stop war (and quite often, "enough" can mean a tiny group) it will be so. As long as you wash your hands of the problem, "too hard", "can't be done", "human nature", you will not attempt to solve it.I am not being naive. There are unattainable goals in this world, but humankind is often bettered by those who strive to reach them. People such as Ghandi, & Guxmao, have made the world a better place for a short time, by striving towards these goals, because they worked towards the unattainable. So, drop the cynicism. Take up the pragmatism. And take practical steps towards attaining a dream.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:was the 'he planet' just an interesting slip of the finger cantus? it seems some how appropriate.ray did you hear about the us soilder who was charged with raping a woman in japan, okinawa. the japanese convicted him and sentenced him, he got 2 years. the us army was upset because its very difficult to get a rape conviction if you are a japanese man i japan, so the soilder fella got 'done over' they said. my words not theirs. this is from the big wigs of the us military oragisnation. now i'm not saying all soilders are rapist, but when the boss doesn't consider it a crime worth more than two years imprisionment, it makes me seriously question whats sort of culture/people exist in the military.ray please don't take this as if you should explain the actions of the boss or anything.

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:You might want to explain that again Dan. It's not very clear what you mean (I understand but others might not).

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:now i think your're just begin cheeky, or pushing your self elivating button
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the he bit. its a mans world! to be a little more correct 'its a crazy mans world'


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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Not that y'muppet. The japanese rape thing. It's not too clear as to the point you're making.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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