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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Out of curiosity could you tell me where you got your numbers? However you are right I am expendable, I knew that before I signed up. I praise Dom for his contrabutions, I am glad that he does something to help out. Myself what I contribute to is a little different than what he does. I put some of my money every month to helping military familes make ends meet. Right now I have no bills, I dont even own a car so I give some money every month mainly just to places that give a little aid like when someones wife is pregnent and they need help with the bills. I give to the SMP (single marine program) it that program gives single and unacompanied Marines a place to hang out. It really helped me settle in when I first got to my first duty station. Dom's charities may seem more admiral but we are both helping people in different ways.Any you are most definatly right every country should be helping out. America does sell older weapons to other contries, 80% of the world flies our fighters and bombers. also 90% of the world uses our airliners, Only the French and Russians really have anything out there that is not American made.We (America) have a rather large problem with homeless people, people who are starving to death. Personaly (and I know some will want to shoot me for this) I feel that we need to solve our own problems before we try to solve the worlds. I think of it as trying to walk before run, America is the walk around the block and the world is the marathon.Hmm looking at a few numbers we spend $730,000,000 on our two aircraft carryers every year. It costs $1,000,000 a day just to run one of those. I think that the defence of this country is worth the cost. Personally with the size of some of our enimies armies it would be rather easy to attack America. I mean Chinas army is what 3 million members or so. They also have the worlds largest airforce. Think about it, is it worth 400 Billion a year to keep you safe at home or would you rather be seen as second rate trash? That is assumeing that you live in America. I have seen pictures of what the Chinese did to Americans, personally I like being free to live my life how I choose. Dont you? I think 400 billion a year is a rather small price to pay so that I can say whatever I want on the internet. Think about what that $400 billion ensures. Just think of those who have died in the past so that you and I can sit here all nice a cumfy and speek to eachother with out even having to be anywhere near eachother. That is why I serve my country. Because if I didnt who would peaceniks like Dom? (no offence intended Dom just an example) NO they wouldnt they would be going out to protest a govenment that would rather shoot them in the street than one that would actually pretend to listen.Men and women like me risk our lives so that men, women and children can live safe and happy lives. You worry about keeping the people alive by feeding them and I will worry about keeping you alive by being willing to give my life so that you can live.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Either this computer is screwing up or yall not paying attention so...BUMP!!impaitent bugger aint I?
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Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Have you ever heard of game theory in business? It is based on a few premises, but one of the illustrative examples used is the following scenario:Two criminals, both arrested, separated from one another, are offered a deal. If they both maintain that they are innocent, they will get away with it. If they both admit guilt, they both get sentenced to a long term. However if one admits to being guilty, and also gives the dirt on the other, he will receive a reduced sentence, & the other will go down for a long, long time (check the police show parlance!!).Game theory suggests that neither will trust the other enough to carry on maintaining innocence. So both will confess. And both will serve a long term.It is kinda like the war thing, no one trusts the rest of the world enough to stop themselves, and so we all lose. Mexican standoff. R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Sorry, at work & interrupted, hence abrupt end to previous post. My point is that if both sides were protected by people like Dom, then maybe they would be truly protected...R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:Raymund_____________________________________________Think about it, is it worth 400 Billion a year to keep you safe at home or would you rather be seen as second rate trash? _____________________________________________I am thinking about it and I feel that that amount of money PER YEAR would be better spent on peace missions/aid etc.... I dont understand your point about being seen as second rate trash - please explain.I dont believe that any war is fought so that we "can sit here all nice a cumfy and speek to eachother" I believe that wars are fought for economic reasons only, and if we, the people, decide we dont like whats going on - tough. Just curious but, if there was an uprising against the government - would you obey orders and 'police the streets'? Do you believe the army is there to protect your country or your government? I understand that you feel a need to protect your rights and fight for what you belive in but are you really sure that that is what you are doing?Rozi, good point - What we could achieve if we all stood strong and believed in oursleves! Wo/man kind has the ability to love and that is where our greatest power lies.Its great to see how much good 'intent' there is on this board - if we intend hard enough things WILL change.[This message has been edited by Firefairy (edited 12 March 2002).]

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:"400 billion to feel safe at home" - how about thinking why you're not safe at home, and tackling the causes not just arming yourselves to fight off the effects of problems that could have been solved peacefully.Anyway, something more maddening and sickening: The US 'has nuclear hit list'The US is now thinking the unthinkable - the use of nuclear weapons "in the event of surprising military developments". Nice open statement.Every intelligent person in the world knows what nuclear war leads to. A cascade of attacks and counter attacks each killing millions, rendering the majority of the planet uninhabitable.However Bush thinks they're ok to use and wants smaller versions for 'battlefield' use. Although the term battlefield is defunct these days when you're bombing from afar.As a peacenik it's hard to think about murder sometimes, but how else can an insane fool with ultimate power like Bush be stopped?

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Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:Thats pretty damn freaky. Even the 'small scale' (ha) nuclear bombs would have such tremendous repercussions - doesnt Bush realise that this would not only effect the country he's boming but the whole rest of the world - even the good ol US of A!I never put much weight into the end of the world theories - but heh 2012 here we come.

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stickyfish
member
Location: Lingfield, Surrey, England
Member Since: 27th Feb 2002
Total posts: 39
Posted:I'm scared. I want my mommy
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And no, I'm not being sarcastic, this kind of shit trully scares me. Dom is right, if a nuclear war begins the only possible outcome is retaliation and counter retaliation untill almost everybody is wiped out. Virtually everywhere in the first world will become a target before the bombs stop going bang. Lets just hope it is a last resort thing and Mr B. never actually uses them.One last thing, I live in UK, I believe we have neuclear weapons like Russia. Does that mean Mr B. will be pointing some hectic shit at me as well? Or is that not the only reason they're pointing at Russia, I think maybee someone is holding a grudge
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Love & Peace from LondonRob


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AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:On a lighter not, here's something you all might be interested in:Arts Awaken After the TalibanMarch 10, 2002By ANDREW SOLOMONKABUL, Afghanistan - THE reopening of the National Galleryin Kabul in February took place in the dark. Theelectricity was out again, a casualty of war, and no onecould get the gallery's generator to work. A certaingrimness lingered in the air. More striking than much ofthe art was a special display of the ripped-up drawings andbroken frames left by the Taliban, lest anyone forget.And yet the mood was hopeful, victorious, even joyful.Presiding over the ceremony, Hamid Karzai, the leader ofAfghanistan's interim government, spoke emotionally of thegallery as the locus of "great hope and brightness," whereAfghan culture could emerge out of hiding."This is more, so much more, than the reopening of amuseum," he declared, toasting the moment with a cup oftea.Then, with great delight, he watched Dr. Yousof Asefiperform an act of sweet triumph.Dr. Asefi is an artist who, at great personal risk, haddisguised the figures of human beings in 80 oil paintingsat the gallery by applying a veneer of watercolor paintover them. He had thus saved the pictures from destructionat the hands of the Taliban, who had forbiddenrepresentations of the human form as sacrilege. Now, as anassortment of ministers, journalists, artists and localintellectuals looked on, Dr. Asefi, scrubbed up in astarchy new suit, approached a painting, dipped a cloth inwater and began washing the watercolor away, revealing theoriginal figures beneath, still intact.There was applause all around.I had come to Afghanistanto see what remained of the country's culture after thedepredations of the Taliban and the devastation of war. AndI was astonished to find, amid the bombed-out ruins ofKabul, an artistic community that was not only optimisticbut exuberant. Everyone I talked to had extraordinarystories to tell about the Taliban era, but they hadsurvived that time surprisingly well, and were taking upmuch where they had left off. You would think from theWestern news reports that Kabul is populated only bydesperate peasants, many of them warlike, and governmentbureaucrats and soldiers. In fact, Kabul also has apopulation of cultured, soign Afghans, some of whom stayedthrough the Taliban years, some of whom have flooded backinto the country from self-imposed exile.But the beginning of a renaissance is not taking place onlyamong a small elite. The Union of Artists, closed by theTaliban, quietly reopened three months ago and has alreadyattracted more than 3,000 members countrywide, including200 women."Our future depends on these people," Mr. Karzai told me."We need to save our culture and bring it forward, make anew culture of Afghanistan. This is at the top of ouragenda."Afghan women have been slow to give up the enshroudingburka, to Westerners the most potent symbol of theTaliban's oppression. During a two-week visit to Kabul inmid-February, I spotted no more than a dozen women showingtheir faces on the streets despite the lifting of the ban.Their clinging to the garment points to a deep culturalbasis for this concealment.But while the emergence of women has been slow andambivalent, the recent proliferation of art - high, low,traditional, new, Western, Eastern - shows how suddenlyfree urban Afghans now are.Contrary to the Taliban's propaganda, the prohibitionsagainst art were never based in Islam. "The very idea isridiculous," said the minister of information and culture,Said Makhtoum Rahim. "There is no religious justificationfor such laws."Nancy Hatch Dupree, a leading Western expert on Afghanculture, calls the restrictions "total claptrap, entirelypolitical." Abdul Mansour, director of Afghanistantelevision and former president of the cultural ministry,said, "They said it was religion, but it was just acombination of thuggery, profiteering and fulfilling theagenda of the I.S.I." He was referring to Pakistan's secretservice, then underwriting the Taliban. The I.S.I., hesaid, "wanted to see the weakest possible Afghanistan."He continued: "And Pakistan is jealous. Pakistan is a newcountry, a fake country, with no history. While we - wehave a splendid history."Mr. Rahim said: "Afghan culture has been destroyed manytimes. By Alexander the Great. By the British army. In the13th century, Genghis Khan attacked Herat and killedeveryone. Sixteen people were out of town for variousreasons, and they returned to find that their city nolonger existed. First, they wept. But then they decided torebuild, and though they were just 16, Herat rose from theashes. We will do it again. We want to export a message oflove and cooperation for all the world, and to show ourgreat art, so that people understand this is not just acountry of warlords and battle."It is striking that in its early days, the Talibansupported art and was involved in programs of culturalpreservation. It was only later in the regime, when theterrorist group al Qaeda and foreign agents had begun towield most of the power, that the anti-art policies wereestablished and many of the most beautiful things in thecountry, some 2,000 national treasures, were wantonlydestroyed. The Taliban's purpose was to wipe out Afghanidentity so that nationalist resistance to them would beweak. Unlike Soviets or Maoist Chinese, who interfered withthe arts in an effort to eliminate whatever history couldnot be used to construct patriotic propaganda, the Talibanworked toward annihilation. The whole idea of being anAfghan was to be eradicated.This program required interference not only withintellectuals and artists but also with ordinary people andtheir ordinary pleasures. "They succeeded in destroyingabout 80 percent of our cultural identity," Mr. Rahim says."The Soviets had already done their damage; they wanted toturn a thousand years of history into 19th-century Marxism.But the Taliban wanted to destroy everything."Gathering Round TV'sTelevision, illegal under theTaliban but reborn in recent months, is of course the mostpopular means of disseminating new ideas and values, thoughthe station's equipment is dilapidated and many shows haveto be shot several times because of poor quality video andcameras that fail. Mr. Mansour has brought in historyprofessors for programs about the history of Afghanistanstretching back to 1000 B.C. There are also music and artprograms, showings of old Afghan films and recitations ofnew Afghan poetry. Afghans are hungry for this material;after five years without television, large groups ofviewers in Kabul gather around sets that are often hookedup to car batteries when power fails, as it does mostnights.Guardians of ArtMany of Afghanistan's best artists use traditional media,like painted miniatures, which originated in Afghanistanand are central in the country's artistic history. Theleading miniaturist, Hafiz Meherzad, encloses figurativescenes within exquisite borders of gold leaf and groundrock pigments. Mr. Meherzad said he had been "too tired toemigrate" after the mujahedeen, the forces who entered thepost-Soviet power vacuum, and thought that he couldcontinue his work quietly during the Taliban's reign solong as he didn't show it publicly. But when his neighborscried out that the Taliban were searching everyone'shouses, he panicked and buried all his work. It was largelydestroyed by the earth's moisture.His sense of cultural responsibility is acute. "I do notbelieve in innovation in this field," Mr. Meherzad said."If you make changes in this work, you will destroy eventhe past. You in America can innovate because your past issafe. Here in Afghanistan, we need to secure our pastbefore we begin to create a future."It was hard for the Taliban to attack calligraphers, whosework was holy; but it held them in considerable suspicion,and men like Ismail Sediqi kept a low profile. He stoppedmaking beautiful images of his own poems, with lines like"I am a treasure within a ruin." Instead, he became "asimple scribe" who wrote verses from the Koran. Even here,however, there was room for sedition: he often copied outthe opening verse of the holy book, which announces -contrary to the restrictive practices of the Taliban - thatGod is the God of all men. "Innovation?" he said. "Well, Isometimes put modern makeup on the beautiful face of theclassic forms."Dr. Asefi, who has become a potent symbol of culturalrebirth in Kabul, was unable to leave Afghanistan duringthe Taliban period, starting in 1996, because of familyobligations, and he made only landscapes, bare of human oranimal figures, and "unrepresentative in any way of life inAfghanistan." The pressure and the fear gave himpsychiatric problems that continue to haunt him. Now he isreturning to those works and adding the figures he alwaysenvisioned. "If the Taliban had lasted five more years,they might have destroyed our culture," he said. He isgrateful for the American military intervention. "Byliberating us, you saved our history as well as our presentlives," he said.Underground PoetsAfghanistan is a country of poets. Shir Mohammed Khara ranan underground poetry movement under the Taliban. He metwith other poets who had memorized their poems so that theycould discuss them without running the risk of being foundcarrying them. Whenever they gathered, they carried copiesof the Koran so they could tell Taliban agents that theywere having a prayer meeting. A number of poets have alliedthemselves with the newspaper Arman (Hope)."We could not mirror our Taliban-era society," the poetMohammed Yasin Niazi said. His colleague Abdul Raqib Jahidadded, "Under the Taliban, I tried simply to write poemsthat would relieve people of their tension." Their newpoetry is enthusiastically nationalist.Mr. Niazi wrote:We saw the results of the work of the ignorant.Now weshould be rational.It is time for open windowsThrough which the sun shines. Mr. Jahid wrote:Communism and terrorism wanted to swallow AfghanistanBut the knife of liberty cut their throat . . .I justwant to tell you the story of libertyAs politely as possible. Other poets, however, expressdeep bitterness. Achmed Shekib Santyar wrote:EpitaphOn the biggest escarpment,On the sharpest peak,Withbold letters,Etch this,The message of a futureless generation:That in childhood,instead of mothers' mercy, we received the rough talk ofsoldiers;And in youth, instead of pens, we got guns in our hands;And in age, instead of rest, we went out begging.Don't blame us.We could do nothing for you.Close Callfor FilmmakersIn 1968, with support from Hollywood, Afghan Films wasestablished. It made a dozen or so films a year -documentaries and features - until the mujahedeen, whenthings slowed down. Under the Taliban, they stoppedentirely. The Taliban burned more than 1,000 reels of stockwhen they took Kabul."They started doing it here in the office," said TimurHakimian, head of the company, waving a hand in front ofhis face. "You can't imagine the smell. Since it wasasphyxiating them as well as the rest of us, they went tothe stadium and made a public spectacle of their bonfire."Fortunately, Taliban censors didn't know the differencebetween prints and negatives; what they burned was mostlyreplaceable, and the negatives, hidden elsewhere, survived."Unfortunately, we were unable not only to use ourequipment during these years, but also to clean or maintainit," Mr. Hakimian said. "Much has been destroyed not byabuse, but by neglect. If we could get the equipment, we'reready to roll again."Mr. Hakimian is a dryly humorous and sophisticated man whohas traveled to film festivals around the world. He servedfor many years as president of the Union of Artists, aposition he has now reclaimed. Because he had made a filmwhose narrator accuses the Taliban of being against cultureand Islam, he went into hiding during their ascendancy."There was good reason to be afraid!" he told me. "If thesepeople could blow up your World Trade Center, they couldblow up little me! I feel lucky to be alive at all."He got a friend who worked as a cleaner in the securitydepartment of the Taliban to remove and burn his file, andhe attributes his survival to this act.Dozens of men and three women have approached Mr. Hakimianabout playing in films again. The great actress ofpre-Taliban films was Zamzama Shakila, usually just calledZamzama, a gorgeous woman whose physical presence wasparticularly alarming to the Taliban. She wanted to stay inAfghanistan despite the Taliban; she gave up acting, andher husband (also an actor) sold clothes in the street. ButTaliban agents hunted them down and in one attack byfundamentalists she took five bullets and he took seven,one of which is still embedded in his skull. They fled toPakistan. For years she survived by singing for weddings inPeshawar. The day Kabul was taken, they came back."I was so thirsty for my country," she said.She wore theburka for her trip back into Afghanistan; when she arrivedin Kabul, she took it off and burned it in the street. Sheis one of the few women to go without cover today. "I hearwomen talking as they pass me, saying they admire myshedding my burka," she said. "I confront them and say:`Take yours off. Nothing terrible will happen.' Sometimesthey throw off their burkas there, and we walk in thestreet together. Someone has to start this tendency."Zamzama complains that while Afghan men stare, Americansoldiers in the special forces units are the ones who areobnoxiously aggressive. "I say to them: `You are worse thanthe terrorists. You are making life impossible for Afghanwomen. Cut it out.' "In the dilapidated offices of Afghan Films, Zamzamaexplained, "The old crowd is coming together. Of course,actors are more liberal than others, and in these officeswe meet each other and shake hands." She became emotional,held my arm. "In our happiest dreams we didn't see this."Since Afghan Films has no equipment, Zamzama keeps herfamily going by acting in two weekly television programs."I'm ready to do comedy now," she said. "Romantic comedy."Mr. Hakimian is skeptical. "The women newscasters on TVstill wear head scarves; the country barely accepts thatthey show their faces," he said. "If you can't show awoman's hair, how can you show her in a boy's arms?"But Zamzama countered: "No fighting films. We've seenenough guns in our real lives. People should enjoy the newAfghan films." She gestured extravagantly. "It's time forfun, fun, fun."Music Breaks a SilenceWhile cultural resurgence in all the arts is strong, theplace where it is most striking is in music. Along-silenced country, where women could be arrested forhumming to their babies, where it was illegal even to clapyour hands, is suddenly full of every kind of music inevery place.I went to a wedding where the band was playing in a veryun-Western "Western style" - what for Afghanistan wouldhave been Top 40 if anyone had been counting. A member ofthe groom's family had died a short time earlier, and thereis supposed to be no music after such a death; but thebride protested that there had been enough years of silenceto cover 1,000 family deaths. The band included an electricguitar, a drum machine and a Soviet-era synthesizer; theirregular electricity meant that all the instruments keptgoing on and off, and the performance was undistinguished,but people were overjoyed by the music. They spoke oflittle else. My particular favorite song had these lyrics:Sweetheart, put on your makeup and perfume.Be beautiful.Your eyes are like a deerYour lips, like a pomegranate flower,And your height,like a tree.Oh, I am going to my sweetheartAnd I don't know whether to goIn a Datsun, a minivan or aLand Rover.The progenitors of up-to-the-minute Afghan pop are somewhatmore urbane. Baktash Komran is as close to a pop star asyou'll find in Afghanistan - good looking, 23 years old, abodybuilder, a reinterpreter of music from the 70's andcreator of new material. On the several occasions when Imet him, he wore a leather jacket with an American flag onthe back. During the time of the Taliban, he dug out asecret underground basement room, where he practiced music,far enough down so that they couldn't hear him. He was anadolescent and a provocateur who was jailed four times: forkeeping his beard too well-trimmed on one occasion and forhaving an electric piano on another. He claims he wassinging as he escaped.The first singer to have his own concert on Afghantelevision after it was re-established, Mr. Komran showedoff his pride and joy, a super-new, very high-tech Yamahasynthesizer, which he brought into the country fromPakistan at a time when the Taliban still controlled thesouth. "I couldn't bring it across the legal checkpoints,"he explained, "so I tied it to a donkey and he and Iclimbed the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistantogether. Then I wrapped it in a shawl and carried it toKabul in a taxi."Asked about relations between the sexes, the subject of hissongs, he said they were getting closer, but added that hehad never felt excluded by the burka. "It's easy to fall inlove with a pair of shoes," he told me. "Or the waysomeone's fabric moves." He has written songs about that.While this scene is brewing, music is also re-entering thelives of people for whom it is a more profound enterprise.On Thursdays, the eve of the sabbath, the Cheshti Sufipeople of Afghanistan, Islamic mystics, are gathering onceagain for the ritual that the Taliban so long denied them.I went to a recently re-established Khanaqah in Kabul. Theceremony took place in the poorest part of the city, down along alley of bombed-out buildings. I climbed a smallstaircase of mud bricks into a hidden upper story whereabout 80 men were seated on old carpets strewn across thefloor. The walls were graffitied with phrases from theKoran, and the light came from candles and one electriclight, which went on and off according to its whim.The men had faces from outside of time: craggy and bearded,though some were quite young, and aflame with the ceremony.They wore traditional Afghan dress, heavy woolen shawlswrapped completely around them. On a raised platform, abouta half dozen instrumentalists were playing strange lyricalmusic and incanting verses, repetitive and mesmeric.Periodically one would stop, and someone else would takehis place. The crowd swayed and shifted to the music, andsome intoned nasally with the singers. A young man with abattered teapot crawled around serving everyone tea fromthe same eight cups.The ceremony went on all night. It was dizzying; time lostits meaning. Sometimes someone would get up and dance orsway ecstatically. The voices would rise and grow thick inthe air. Then the tune would grow increasingly rapid, therhythms more urgent, until it broke, and a new tune wouldmake its slow way forward. It felt sacred and as ancient asthe 700 years that it has been practiced by Sufis inAfghanistan.I had the fortune to meet Afghanistan's most distinguishedclassical musicians, who have been brought together by theenterprising director of music for Afghan television, AzizGhaznavi, himself a popular singer of the premujahedeenperiod who has toured in the United States. "Of course,practice makes perfect," Mr. Ghaznavi said, "and during theTaliban period none of us could practice. We lost so much.After five years of not singing at all, I was afraid tohear my own voice, and it was a very scary moment, to singagain for the first time."To an untrained ear, classical Afghan music sounds somewhatlike Indian classical music, but it uses instruments thatare indigenous to Afghanistan - the sarinda, the rabab andthe richak - as well as the tabla and sitar and harmonium.The Taliban insisted that musical instruments be destroyed,so only those that people managed to hide have survived.One man I met had kept his sarinda in the middle of hiswoodpile, where it passed for fuel, throughout the Talibanperiod."In recent months, we have been starting over with thesewarped, broken instruments," Mr. Gaznavi explained. "Thereis only one instrument maker in Afghanistan, and he is nowfixing all the broken instruments; he has no time yet fornew ones."For family reasons, Mr. Gaznavi could not flee Afghanistanduring the Taliban rule. Life was incredibly difficult foranyone whose whole life was music, and he became depressedbecause of unsatisfied yearnings. He went to a doctor andsaid he would go crazy without music in his life. Thedoctor suggested that he listen to the one kind of songthat even the Taliban couldn't make illegal. So he boughthis first birds, and fell in love with them. He now hasmore than 50 pigeons in a coop behind his house. When Iwent there one afternoon, I was ushered into hislight-purple living room to sit crosslegged on the floorand eat candy while Mr. Ghaznavi and a friend tried outsome new harmoniums they had just acquired. The sound ofthe multiple harmoniums playing in this lavender room inwhich many pigeons were flying around was surreal, and theweirdness was not mitigated by the presence of Mr.Ghaznavi's son, the all- Afghanistan weight-liftingchampion, who sat in his shalwar kameez, traditional tunicand trousers, flexing his stupefying biceps when he was notrefilling our teacups.The practice rooms at the television station are alwaysfull, despite being unheated and without amenities. When Iwent there the first time, Mr. Gaznavi directed me to someparticularly talented musicians. A few had recentlyreturned from Pakistan and Iran, but others had spent theTaliban years in Kabul. One, Abdul Rashin Mashinee, caughtby the Taliban playing a sarinda, was told that they wouldcut off his hands if they ever found him playing again. Hespent the dark years working as a butcher, but, he says, "Ipracticed my instrument diligently, every night in mydreams."The group kept breaking off to apologize to me for the coldand for the fact that their full ensemble wasn't together."There should be 11 of us, not 6," they said. And then theysaid that I seemed to appreciate music and could they findtheir friends and get together so I could hear them all? Isaid I'd be delighted and invited them for the nextafternoon at 5 to the warm house where I was staying, andtold them to stay for supper.I mentioned the plan to the people with whom I was sharingthe house - journalists from other publications - and thenI invited a few friends, and my housemates did the same,and I asked our cook to make a big feast to thank themusicians. Everyone brought friends, and there were in theend about 50 guests - half Afghans and half foreigners. Myplan had been to hear the musicians for an hour or so, butthey were so happy to have an occasion and an audience thatthey played on and on and on. We all danced to this exoticmusic and ate and danced and ate. Mr. Ghaznavi sang for us.There is a 10 p.m. curfew in Kabul, and so the party guestsbegan filing out at 9:30, but the musicians lived too faraway to make the curfew and so stayed over. They played andplayed, and at 2 a.m. we were all still sitting together,and the sitar and the tabla were diverting us with gentlelyrical late- night music. Our little concert at home wasin the end more than 10 hours long.There is a kind of joy that can be known only by people whohave grieved deeply; happiness is not only a quality of itsown but also an effect of contrast. This playing wasmagical and in its own way as ecstatic as the Suficeremony. Every note was swollen with fulfilled longing. Ihave never heard anything like it.

+Alien Jon

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:That is beautiful!------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:All though I don't necessarily agree with the approach to "the war on terrorism" I was glad to hear that something good has come of it. Lets hope that it will last for the afganies and that the U.S. will take an interest in the aftermath on a level greater than an oil pipeline.

+Alien Jon

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am sorry for the delay in my responce, I am now back state side (bout friggin time) and I have been wrather busy. Any how back to the actionIf the world revolved around trust, where would the sun be? Trust is a two way street, I recall in a diff topic one of our fellow HoPers had been mugged by acouple of black people, now that HoPer is a little skittish around black people. Now I am not saying that they dont trust black people but it would seem to me that they have a very hard time trusting them would ya say. Once bitten twice shy. I think that America has been burned once to many times to just trust someone because they say so.War is fought so that the powerfull can become even more powerfull therefore they will be more comfertable.Dom have you ever herd of the 48th paralell in Korea (atleast I think that it is 48th either that or 43erd). I am sure that the Koreans on the southern boarder are rather glad that the cold hearted Bush is spening so much money. They probably sleep a hell of alot more soundly knowing that there is a person like me on that line saying that "Nothing is going to harm you, not on my watch!" Your list of to be nuked countries is probably accurate but you must look at it this way. If sombody nukes America well then nuklear winter has already started. Its funny how you are appauled at us threatening other countries with nukes while you turn a blind eye to the threats that are made against us. I am pretty damn sure that Mr. Bush realsises the potential here, but ya know what I would wager all the money I have ever made and all the money I will ever make plus my life that those threats are more hollow than full.Stickyfish, I am sure that Russia still has nukes pointed at many many countries includeing the good ole UK!Deep down inside I would say that each and every one of you are glad that people like me exist. If it wasnt for patriots during the revolutionary war 99.9% of Americans alive today wouldnt exist and it would probably be safe to say that most brits wouldnt either! Conflict breeds stronger people. What doesnt kill me makes me stronger, proven fact.Well that is all for now talk laters.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:But I don't turn a blind eye to threats made against the USA. I think that all such acts are reprehensible. I would condemn those threats made as well.However you must admit that the USA is the biggest kid in the playground. I would also hope that it is the most mature and can restrain itself from pounding the c*%#p out of the other kids, no matter how many names it is called.On another note, the use of nuclear weapons is not in keeping with the idea that all measures will be taken to avoid the death of innocent civilians. In other posts we discussed trade sanctions, and military techniques & weapons (including those damn smart bombs so no more wisecracks) and talked about how everything was being done to avoid unnecessary casualties. Nuclear weapons are not a surgically precise instrument, a better analogy is a well aimed anvil to kill a bug. It is also an anvil that will leave a dent that will last many, many years. If nuclear weapons are used, the land it is used on will be unproductive and uninhabitable for a time period beyond our lifetime, and certainly beyond the lifetimes of those it is used against. A true example of the sins of the father being visited upon the son.R. [This message has been edited by Rozi (edited 15 March 2002).][This message has been edited by Rozi (edited 15 March 2002).]

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:ray darling i'm getting my students to translate a song that is very popular over here, its about mr bush, its not one celebrating america or mr bush i asure you.i should also tell you they fold one of ther paper notes so the face is like that of o sama bin laden wrapped in a turnbin/raghead thing, they think his great. go figure.i'm sure they be sleeping soundly tonight with the sweet tune disssing mr bush in there heads.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Rozi you are right nothing would be solved by using nukes and I really doubt that Mr. Bush would actually use them. I for one would seriusly reconsider my contract if he did. (I had to say that very PC incase the wrong persons read my posts.)Itsgottab, it sounds to me like you really wanna piss me off. I think that it would be for the best if you would just shut up, that last post was a direct and volentary unprovoked insult. I do hope that you were jokeing when you said your students, because you would make a very piss poor teacher. You are filled with more hate than I am. Your last post prooves it.I will say this again and hope that you get it into your head, I do not butcher your name nor do I add crap onto the end of it, so dont do it to mine. Now this may be homophobic of me but one guy calling another guy darling sounds well alittle fruity. Now please dont tell me of your preferace I really dont want to know how many dogs you have... had your way with. Now that I have had my little moment of immaturity I will go.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:ray my darling, in your prior post. you said that south koreans would sleep soundly because mr bush is spending alot of money on you.i was merely pointing out to you that most korean people hate the way america operates in the international community. the hate i was expressing was theirs, their culture theire style. try not to get confussed.and yes they do hate america like the rest of the world. of course there are always personal execptions, some of which visit this site.

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:just ading to that raymound, in the internet cafe i use, to my shock(yeah thats right shock and now slight assumement) they have a picture of the new york city sky line the towers still standing, the city covered in flames a plane is flying towards the towers with the caption "the invasion has just begun"i haven't seen any of my students there so i don't now where they got the idea from, maybe they read this board?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:You make me sick, its people like you I would love to advisorate from the face of this planet. Hate America go on feel free, you want an invaision come on bring it! There is not a country out there with the brains or the balls to invade. Name one American that you truly know, I dare you, one that you have met and have talked with for longer than 1 hour. You are a pimple on the face of the planet. I would love to see you get popped! I have 5.56mm round waiting for anybody who thinks they can come into my country and take over. Now that you mention it I think I should up grade hows a 40mm granade sound? 15meter kill raidus. Should I keep going, how about a .50 round that doesnt even have to hit you to take your head off. Air displacement... go figure. You want a war cool go get your little punk ass terrorist friends and we will have to do it the old fashond way point blank just line up and shoot see who wins. You are no better than the guy who holds his own kids hostage because he doesnt want to pay a speeding ticket.The wold may hate us but lets see them do one damn thing with out us. You depend to much on our markets to do anything! I really doubt that there is a country out there that doesnt depend on the US in some fashon or another.You wanna make me mad try it you aint seen nuttin yet.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Wow, you sound a lot like george bush.you ain't seen nuthin yet?your only making americans look like war mongers ray, thanks for providing a perfect example of the mentality that the world is against.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Why is this thread still going?Mr Phule. Itsgottab is a New Zealander. He teaches English to Korean students in Korea. It is not he that hates the US, but they (the students). He does, on the other hand, enjoy getting a rise out of people. You're directing your anger at him and that's kinda what he wants.Daniel, just drop it. It's not funny to anyone but yourself. You've got him too riled to actually read any of your posts properly. You're not going to get a reasoned arguement out of him. He doesn't get what you're trying to say.Keep sniping at each other if you so wish. I don't really care. But it's completely pointless.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:ignorance is bliss...disclaimer since obviously needed: not directed to ayone in particular, just an observation...

anyone got a light?

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PHL9te
member
Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 7th Jan 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:Itsgottab, that's pretty low. There's no point posting on here if you're just going to taunt people then snigger at them when they get angry. This counts double for what you said to Raymond, since you're basically taking the piss out of something he, and a lot of other people, take very seriously. There's no need for it. Sorry to sound so righteous, but I'm sure you can find any number of chatrooms stuffed full of hormone filled teenagers talking about Britney if you want an argument.Raymond, ignore the guy. Chill out, spin some poi. There's no chance of schlepping all the way over to New Zealand to kick the guy in, and let's face it, if you could, do you really, really want to? If he keeps annoying you, just crank up your speakers and check this out: http://b3ta.com/giantbee/
then try not to laugh. I dares ya.*Calms down a bit...* Phew. Sorry, where were we? TPS Ooh... hi to everyone else, by the way... this is all making very interesting reading.--------------------"Too much television watchin' got me chasin' dreams..."--


It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:My, that's a big bee....Makes me kinda wish I was Blode....*wanders off singing about bees*

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:It's a shame that this thread that was once a fairly intelligent discussion between a military person and a pacifist (mostly all of it, let's be honest)(Dom, where are you?) turned into this "calling each other names" crap.Itsgottab, you're attacking him too bluntly to get anywhere productive. I see your point (behind the immature teasing) but Ray doesn't.Raymond, you are indeed picturing a very stereotypical american with your Bush-sounding aggressive speech. Knowing that you actually own these arms and have the legitimacy that goes with your job (Marine), I'm more and more scared when I read your posts because, being the one with the guns and the authority, you should be the greater one and brush him off as opposed to get fired off and threaten to kill him. There are legitimate reasons behind part of the world's resentment towards the USA (imperiaslistic foreign policy, arrogant attitude of leaders, etc.). They don't justify Bin Laden's actions and killings. But a lot of the world out there is aware of America's wrong that explains the resentment. A lot of Americans living in this country sadly aren't aware of that because the media reports a lot less (or not at all) America's immoral actions abroad. Nothing new, this has been re-re-re-rehased in this thread, I don't even know why I'm saying it.Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:You peoples have posted some real lagitimate shit, pardon my French (for those that are French pardon my English)
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. I wish this could be more like what you all have just said. I never threatend to kill Itsgottab (well atleast not in the last few posts) I have threatend to stop any invaision, I do find it humerusly ironic that he is in Korea, I am still laughing over it. I must admit that he has found a good way to get under my skin, and I must agree where the hell is Dom!I would say its safe to say I am a war monger but not all of us are. And for those of you who are concerend I am not sounding like bush he is sounding like me!
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As you can see I am in alot better mood.C@ntus you have my respect, you have also shown me respect at all times, now I will make only one request from you, please dont call me Mr. you make me feel old!
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But as much of a rise he gets out of it I do too, you see I enjoy my violent outbursts, I would rather let them out here where nobody really gets hurt than let them out say on a person that I know. I get as much of a rise and adreniline rush out of it as he does. I do however think that his students feelings have started to work their way on him.There is no such thing as a ligitamate reason to hate anybody.America aint no angle but you know what name one country that is. I think that it is just easyer to point the blame for all your problems at the biggest kid on the playground. I think our Kiwi friend needs to take his own vacation get out of Aisa and see a bit of Europe maybe even come and see what America is really like first hand. He will see that we are not all bad. There are those like me who have short tempers and do enjoy a good fight but ya know, steriotyping is a bout as smart as a monkey fucking a football. Sorry again for the language. Its just one of our phrases.Well yall thats enough out of my mouth for one evening. Night yall.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:its not about him and its not about right now? some of the biggest mind shifts i've had are the result of people i thought were at first stupid f****** w******. given a couple of years maybe a few sutble pushes from hee and there and of course god, beautiful things can happen.ray you are getting alittle anger. all this talk about guns has me almost talking esl theory, its just doesn't have the same kick.

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Bah!!! Dead Thread!!!This is getting a tad boring. I get enough testosterone posturing in the real world, without having to be subjected to it in the virtual.Itsgottab, you would interest me more if you told the stories of some of your students, explaining why they feel the way they do, rather than throwing around the insults. & it might just be the push you are after.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:i didn't realise my comments had exluded you from this disscussion, sorry.some of it has to do with the skating at salt lake city (for the kids they can understand that, but also for the parents)where the american skater did a hollywood. funny thing is, they could say he (the skater did a hollywood) but they had no idea of the real holywood. isn't that funny? but before all that i asked them about the world trade falling down and they thought it was funny and o sama was a hero.they couldn't go beyound that so i'm guessing its from there parents. you get the same thing from your own native speaking kids, when you push for a more detailed respones they shrug and thats all you get or some really red necked type comment.from one of the teachers at my school who speaks pretty good english, he thought american had it coming and they deserve more. at the time i didn't push it further cos i ahd to go teach, and then he left the school. i get the impression these ideas and feelings the people here have can't be explain with simple "well when the us did this we decided to hate them" but a combonation of things over a very long period of time. the war for instances still has a lot of people pissed with them. and the continueing presents along the north/south border where us troops are stationed, the soilders from time to time do some stupid/voilent things like rape/murder/beatings. they don't get tired in korea, so no justice is seen to be done, the offenders get sent home, to what?the issue with north korea today is another. most south koreans want reunification and sooner rather than later. when mr bush comes in with his comments about the 'axis of evil' it just gets people backs up. not only because its a wild stab in the dark and effects there reunification process but its interfering in regional issuesi would guess there is economic resentment as well, they are a very proud people, not that i understand them very well, but they are very proud of the fact that they are emerging as an 1st world nation and a powerful force in the asian region. the recent steel tarrifs are a slap in the face for this country. imf sponsored/free trade promoted counrty that it is, bla bla, and then to have that slap on you can really mess with a friagle economy and peoples preceptions of justice.i'm sure there are many a more reasons for the hate that is so blatent and open but i don't no them.it should be remmeber that these people study like dogs, at high school over 12 hours a day, so they cover alot of history of the world in general, so please don't think they are some bunch of mud hut dwellers, i'd say there knowledge of current world history is as good as any nations children although it is of course filtered though korean eyes.i teach kids up to 14 years so they're generally aren't that interested in world events past the lastest boy band or computer game thats just come out.hope its been of some help.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I left because the right amount of words had ben spoken, and some conclusion was drawn. Then it got infantile. I pop back every now and again, but I'm not really going to add any more.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Now that ladies and gents is a real post! Itsgottab I must say that you should have been saying things along those lines along time ago, if you had neither one of us would be on eachothers case.Any how some corrections for you post, those military members who do commit crimes, depending on the severity will either get busted down in rank and pay or at worse go to jail. In my unit last west pac 3 years ago 2 Marines jumped an Air Force pilot, they are still in the Japenesse brig! I think that the Korean Gov should do what the Thai gov did and make it so that if an American commits a crime off base then they are subject to Korean laws not American. You are right though Americans do do alot of crap to our host countries people. I am not proud of it I actually condem it.What were you talking about when you said "some of it has to do with the skating at salt lake city (for the kids they can understand that, but also for the parents)where the american skater did a hollywood. funny thing is, they could say he (the skater did a hollywood) but they had no idea of the real holywood. isn't that funny? "could you please elaborate on that dont forget I have been out of my country for 6 months and really dont have a clue as to what has really happend here.I have an idea and tell me what you think, I would like to write to one of your students, get to know his/her prespective on things. I would be more than willing to let you screen any and all of my letters in return if you feel that they would be inapropriate for that student then dont give it to your student then tell me whats wrong with it and I will correct reiderate or whatever. I am not talking about proper grammer more along the lines of content but gimme your feed back. I promise you now no death threats will be comming from me and I promis to keep my temper and mouth in check.I will do my part to resolve this hate filled relationship. Even if it has to be one kid at a time.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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