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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:{Totally irrelevant post, but you guys keep going, I find this thread very interesting}Raving Lunatic, which one are you on the video? We're talking about COL2 right?Nomad------------------Anthelionwww.anthelion.org

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SorchaTheFlaming
member
Location: Calgary alberta Canada
Member Since: 26th Jun 2001
Total posts: 235
Posted:*lights a candel and starts singing John Lennon*"All we are saying... is give peace a chance"and repeat.

Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.

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SorchaTheFlaming
member
Location: Calgary alberta Canada
Member Since: 26th Jun 2001
Total posts: 235
Posted:*lights a candel and starts singing John Lennon*"All we are saying... is give peace a chance"and repeat.

Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:I have the answer!!! all's we have to do is:be considerate of other peopledon't be selfish (hard for americans)act with others in mindpretend you're the other personwalk a mile in your shoesoh wait, those are all the same things...
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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:i am geetarplayer@hotmail.com in the HOP video.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:This is obviously a waste of time as I dont think anyones opinion is going to change based on this discussion. But there have been some good points raised and also a lot of links to other sources of information which is bound to help. The more we can spread and diversify the information the better able all of us will be to form opinions and make informed decisions. (Feel free to quote that, I like the sound of it) With all that said, I think I have noticed that with the climate of accepting other people and diversity, some people seem to be losing the ability to say to themselves that this is wrong, these people performing this act is wrong, I am not refering to Homosexuality or anything that consenting people do together. What I am refering to is things like the wholesale subjugation of women in a culture, selling children into sexual slavery, slavery, these are all things that no matter how tolerant you are, you need to be able to say unequiovaclly, This is wrong and needs to be stopped. I know that an argument will be raised that another thing to add to the list is that killing others is wrong. This is true. The question then becomes, is it right to kill (wage war) in the belief that by killing or removing a certain group from power you can set the stage for a better way of life for the people who come after (survivors) I dont have the answer I am looking for answers or commentary that has some thought behind it. Code128"Dont mess with Texas"

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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Rick aka Loki
Rick aka Loki

member
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 18th Dec 2000
Total posts: 134
Posted:It's been taking so much energy to keep up with this topic, I barely have the brainspace to respond, but here goes...First off, Raymund, I've noticed a shift in your attitude over the course of this topic. My respect to you for staying with a discussion that's loaded against you, and for being open to different ideas and possibilities.I think a lot of people would be better off if we all expressed what we believe to be the truth and why we believe it, rather than expressing ourselves as though what we're saying is absolutely true. Respect to those posting websites and media sources of information rather than straight opinion.Some of what I believe, for the moment (it's gotta stay open to change, y'all, or the mind risks becoming trapped)...Am I against war in general? How could I be? War alone is a concept, like terrorism, like disgust, like agreement. It is a side-effect of human culture which is unfortunate. Each war has to be analyzed for why it came to pass, what exactly happened, how it could have been prevented, and what we LEARN from it. Lies and a lack of humility can prevent any of this from coming to pass. I include in this the big wars of this past century. Too much to post here, but do a little research into the history of war and the ways in which power is obtained, and you may find some very simple parallels.I should say that, among other things, I'm a social justice activist. This means that I spend up to several hours a day researching (I encourage everyone to seek out independent, alternative, or socially-funded news sources like www.indymedia.org or the BBC, CBC, www.corpwatch.org , www.infoshop.org , www.historytoday.com , etc. rather than trust the mainstream media)current affairs and relevant history. I am able to do this because people like Raymund are willing and able to do military jobs so I don't have to, and I am pressured to do this because of people like George W. Bush, who tip the balance of power in the direction of thier own capitalist interests. It's a funny dance. Never forget that we are all connected.So much to go into here.Am I opposed to this war? Yes. Why? Let's look at the previously mentioned points: Why did it come to pass? Put simply, a lot of people hate the US government, for far-reaching reasons like military interference, refusal to play an equal role on the UN stage, vetoing of UN resolutions (most recently, the veto (again) of a UN investigation into the genocide of occupied Palestine by Israel, whom they fund and supply with arms ( www.salam.org )), backing of US corporations in exploitation and murder of foreign citizens ( www.corpwatch.org , re: shell oil), bombing of civilians, arming of one side of a conflict or another (eg Reagan's arming of the Brazilian gov't in the slaughter of brazilian natives whose land was being cleared), etc. This and other reasons helped lead to the eventual creation of a faction of people who were willing to do something desperate for what they saw as payback. The Bush Government, meanwhile, was courting the Taliban for an oil pipeline ( www.willpitt.com ), which had been contracted by a US company but never built ( www.indymedia.org re: afghanistan oil) The economy was in decline, Bush's popularity was low and his legitimacy as president at all had been an issue all along, a strong enough issue that an order had been given to halt the Florida recount before it was completed. There are people who predicted this war. If the planes hadn't fallen, it's been said, Bush would have found another reason. It's the only thing that's distracted public opinion and restored the US economy, and in the long run, it's the cheapest way to control the oil resources of the middle east and surrounding area. There's more to be speculated upon. Find out for yourself when you've got the time.What will this war accomplish? Revenge: certainly. Revenge is about two things, mainly: prevention of future incidents and feeling better. The masses whipped into a frenzy after 9/11 will probably feel better now that a whole lot of towelheads are toasted. And who made them feel better? Why, daddy Bush. Let's give him fast track power and vote him in for another term (not that elections happen during wartime. Anyone notice the ambiguously long estimates being placed on the war's duration?) Will this war prevent future incidents? Yes and no. Yes, governments will be more quick to crack down on any dissenters, dangerous or not, or risk being labeled "with the terrorists" and taken over by force. No, because the truly dangerous groups understand theirs as a warlike situation, each act as one of desperation and fate. The increased US opression (read: state terror) in the rest of the world, and the increased magnitude of atrocities that have taken place while the whole world has been watching the Trade Towers and Afghanistan ( www.indymedia.org re: Israel escalates attacks on Palestine post Sept. 11), will most likely lead to increased terrorist activity through a strengthening of conditions which breed hate and desperation.How could it have been prevented? If we accept the capitalist structure as we've seen it, military- and police-enforced hierarchy included, with greed at one end resulting in starvation at the other, as the only alternative, then no. This war and the events which triggered it being subject to cause and effect, was inevitable. The most efficient way to enforce oppression is through oppression. But for those of us who push for alternatives like democratic reform, socialist-based national infrastructures, and kindness-based living, the "inevitability" of this war evaporates. The cause and effect nature of it is one more thorn in our sides.What can we learn from it? If we continue to be distracted by flashing lights and and propaganda, nothing. (of all the links I've mentioned, this one is one of the neatest to check out: http://whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5
)If we are willing to be brave enough to start asking why this whole thing happened and are unwilling to accept what the mainstream media (influenced even more heavily, need I remind you, in times of war by its controlling government, http://www.isabelvincent.com/cov_mediawar.html)
tells us to believe and what oil tycoon sons of oil tycoons tell us to do (by way of speechwriters), then we may find the strength to seek out what's right and true.What exactly happened? Who the hell knows? We may never know the whole truth about anything, especially something so messy and volatile as a war. Knowing this we recognize that we are walking blind, always, left to reach out with whatever kindness we can muster at all times. We never know who we're touching, who we're affecting, who we're being affected by. Might as well caress and let karma have its gentle way with things.To DIANNA, I hope your anger runs its course. I hope you learn to see things from the other team's perspective, hard as that may be, since we all have so little knowledge of others. Oppression doesn't justify gainless murder of innocents, and a terrorist act doesn't justify a war.To Raymund, good luck. Stay safe, bro. I respect your willingness to go into dangerous situations for what you believe in. May you be right as often as possible. Hopefully we'll all get to have a chuckle about this whole thing when the smoke clears.Peace and Love to all you crazy spinners and dreamers.-Rick "Guinness's World Record holder for the longest motherfucking posts on the HOP site" Gladwinp.s. these folks research stories and weed out the rumors: http://www.snopes2.com/
so you don't have to.[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 31 January 2002).]


-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:you forgot a very important group code 128 the poor suckers (usually men who end up beleiving there only position in life is that to be a soldier) these people often give up their lives for some body esles cause, its not just about woman and children, to think men are not oppressed is to misunderstand the situation totally, thats not to say woman and children aren't oppressed, just broaden your scope a little. it could be said that womens groups around the world have contributed in a big way to the acceptance and ablitiy of america and the west to go to war in afganistain with their bla bla we'rwe good clean white woman who know whats best for all women, what about the whole society, things are a little more complex than just individual rights!!!and all this infomation about who started what and who did this or that, i'm sorry its crap. it has been proven that education (knowledge) doesn't change peoples behaviour, you have to change your lifestyle (your daily habits) to make any changes in this world, thats why technology is changing society so quickly, it changes our behaviour. awareness is important in this process but it pretty small part of the pie.don't underestimated your power as an individual in this world, your actions are far more powerful than talking about a current news item, you don't need to go and join some actitivist group to be effective either.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Great post Rick! And everyone else really, there's been some great posts here! This discussion is far from a waste of time, it's getting people reading and thinking. That's never a waste of time.Code128 - That's the eternally unanswerable question. I can't answer it. Each person and situation has a different answer. However my belief is that you should try peaceful means first. But this war was not started to free the people of Afghanistan. Few wars are. That's the moral feel good factor added for your benefit by governments looking for support. In Afghanistan many women are still wearing burqas, and all are still not equal to men. The interm government contains only 2 women in positions of influence. And now Afghan war lords are beginning to fight amongst themselves to secure power.Another point. The military action against Afghanistan, required, justified or not, has one crucial flaw. It's almost a solely western action. Without strong support from Arab nations all action by a 99% Western force will be seen as an invasive attack by an outside force. Nobody likes outsiders poking around in their business, it led to the various attacks on the US. An important job now is to get the local Arab nations involved in policing Afghanistan. This will definitely help stabilise the situation.

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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:Dom regarding your point about the flawed aspect of the military operation. From what I can tell one of the main factors for the defeat of the Taliban is the fact that there was armed, organized resistance already on the ground that was more than happy to continue their war with the support of the US military. That support being chiefly air strikes and probably weapons and ammo/food. There were not too many American forces on the ground actually fighting this war. Every time a place was liberated it was "Northern Alliance" fighters that were entering the city, not divisions of US GI's. Because of that I dont think the situation on the ground is really as you make it sound. There are lots of local folks that are sticking their noses in. Code128Also lets remember that everything that now is, is only a step in a very random process. It could very easily be something entirely different. And those in power will always have the biggest reason to keep the status quo as it is, to keep themselves in power.

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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:Yes!, I have moved us to Page5 ( with help from everyone else of course
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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:"And those in power will always have the biggest reason to keep the status quo as it is, to keep themselves in power."No, greed drives politics. They'll keep tipping power in their direction to stay in power
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Bush (like other leaders in the UK, Israel, Russia and China) has used this 'war' and claims of patriotism to increase his originally low popularity and push through internationally denounced policy such as missile defense and a $48billion increase in military spending. The Northern Alliance are a bunch of greedy, politically inexperience war lords. Nobody particularly likes them. Before September Pakistan was helping the Taliban fight them! They have little support inside or outside Afghanistan. They're responsible for horrendous human rights abuses. The fact that the US made them allies shows that the US happily uses whatever is there and is prepared to over look a few thousand people slaughtered here and there. The Northern Alliance our Afghanistan's saviours! Forget the fact that last time they were on power tens of thousands were killed by in fighting. This is why the Taliban took power, they were at least more stable than the bickering tribes.The NA marched into towns only because of the US bombing. Just because the US didn't have thousands of troops on the ground doesn't mean they were merely helping the NA. The US was the main combatant against the Taliban. It was the US against the Taliban, and the Northern Alliance was happy to sweep through the country after the planes had finished bombing.My thinking was that a country like Saudi Arabia or Egypt should have led the coalition against Afghanistan.


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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:I agree, great post Rick! i copied down those links, and am spreading them around.I hope this continues, and i'm glad to see my little thread grew into an educational tool, for myself and others.The resistance to this war is growing, keep it up people, spread the word.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:Well Dom thats great thinking RE: Saudi or Egypt, but I havent seen any inclination of that happening, have you?Code128

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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Code128 you are wrong when you said that there were hardly any American ground troops. 1:5 and if I remember corectly 2:21st Marines: 5 div and 2nd Marines:2 div. I have no proof of this technicly it is hearsey. If you really wanna take a look at what Marines where there go to www.usmc.milI will keep this short cuz I am freezing! Went from nice and warm Thailand to freezing Iwakuni Japan. My fingers are not warmed up yet.Write more when I can get the dextarity back in my fingers.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Tanzen
member
Location: Jacksonville, Florida USA
Member Since: 4th Feb 2002
Total posts: 55
Posted:As a veteran of war (Gulf War Veteran, 2 tours in Bosnia, 1 tour in Kosovo), I think it's safe to say that I understand more about "war" than those of you who've only seen it on T.V.With that said, I'll just say that I wish to take no part in any sort of "anti-war" effort and I hope others here will agree with me. I won't go into the reasons I think this way, other than to say that I feel war is a neccessity.Tanzen

Ravers don't share glowsticks!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Tanzen - I'm not going to say anyone personally knows more than anyone else, I think that's assuming too far much. It is possible to be in the centre of something and still not see it. I know a US air force pilot who was based in Italy and never saw Bosnia except from the air. He admits never really saw anything of what it was like on the ground. But I don't know your story.But my question is this. If you've been on the ground during a war, in the thick of things, you've seen the devastation a war can bring to a country. You've seen people displaced and homeless because of war. You've seen the bodies of those that died young. You've seen the lasting effects on people's minds, the permanent cultural scars, the eternal bitterness between the 2 sides that will always be there. You may (but unlikely these days for the US military) have know people killed, injured or mentally affected by war. With all this, do you not think that it would be better to try to avoid war happening and solving the problems in a peaceful matter without the pain?

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kaka
member
Location: stockholm, sweden
Member Since: 8th Jan 2002
Total posts: 3
Posted:as long as people want war, then war is what we'll get.all of you who have seen 'tchy and scratchy' in simpsons knows what i'm talkin about.of course it's wrong to kill 5000 people in bombing the twins.but the question is why they did it.the west-world is no less terrorists than the talibans are.the hell witht terrorists... AND babylon.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am going to talk to a retired Marine that I have met. He was in the Corps dureing Nam. and I will ask him to share his input on the current situation. I can not promis that he will respond nor can I even hope to give a preview of what he might say. I do not even know where he stands on the issue. I will ask none the less.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Tanzen
member
Location: Jacksonville, Florida USA
Member Since: 4th Feb 2002
Total posts: 55
Posted:This is not an issue that I wish to debate with non-combatants.Though, to satisfy your curiousity, I was indeed on the ground in Saudi Arabia, Kuwiat, Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo. I've seen everything from bodies burnt to a crisp in Kuwait, to mass graves in Bosnia, to pure hate in Croatia, to displaced people with not a possession in the world in Kosovo.I don't care what books you read, what movies you watch, or who you talk to...war is something you have to experience to understand...or to SOMEWHAT understand...as I don't think any of us can ever fully understand war.Tanzen------------------Ravers don't share glowsticks!

Ravers don't share glowsticks!

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:hurrah for george bush, and his new budget.with trillions** on the US millitary spending and cuts across the board in education and welfare. We can look forward to more poverty, more inequality and hurrah, more war and death.(**I'm not exagerating, it is actually trillions of dollars he has assigned to military)Just off to my back garden to build a bunker...Glass This is not an anti american post, all my US friends think hes a prat too. Please does any one have a grassy knoll.

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:Tanzen, by saying "This is not an issue that I wish to debate with non-combatants", you are about to close the debate in a discussion that was so far very interesting and that I enjoyed reading. Are "non-combattants" not worthy of expressing their opinions?... I mostly disagree with RaymondPhule, but at least he doesn't have condescendant tone that excludes people who are not like him from the discussion.Nomad Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Closed mind! Get your mental crowbars out!
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I've never been in a war. All I have is some pretty good mental pictures from what I hear, and provided by my father who, as part of the Army, walked through Dresden and other cities in Germany after it was captured by the Allies in WW2. I also have loads of disturbing stories from my family in Malta, which I believe is still the most bombed place on Earth.But I don't think you have to experience war to know it's one of the most hideous actions undertaken by humans.Tanzen - I'm interested in an answer to my question, even if it's a yes/no answer. Thanks!Raymund - I'd be very interested if you get a reply back from the Nam vet.


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Tanzen
member
Location: Jacksonville, Florida USA
Member Since: 4th Feb 2002
Total posts: 55
Posted:glass...check your stats. The President has increased defense spending by 14%. Homeland Defense spending has pretty much doubled. All other spending (that you say is being "cut") has increased across the board about 2%. In his plan there isn't anything that's going to have to do with less. This is what he is proposing (has to be passed by congress, of course).Nomad...yes, I feel non-combatants are entitled to an opinion...I just don't care what that opinion is.
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Hahaha...just a little joke to keep things "light hearted". I'm just being honest with you when I say I don't wish to discuss something that I feel so strongly about with people who haven't "been there, done that" (so to speak). Not trying to be cruel...I just get worked up when someone who hasn't experienced war attempts to change my mind as far as how I feel about it. Let's face it...people discuss/argue issues to change other peoples ways of thinking about the issue. I don't wish to go through that because it would be a waste of my time since I know my mind wouldn't change...and I don't think I'm someone who should attempt to change the mind of someone else.-Dom-...OF COURSE I think it would be better to resolve an issue through diplomatic talks rather than war. However, we all know that is not always possible. Eventually, you have to do more than "talk", envoke economic sanctions on countries, and do other things to twist their arms and make them see the light. So...I'll say again...war is neccessary.Tanzen------------------Ravers don't share glowsticks!


Ravers don't share glowsticks!

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:twist their arm?is that what you mean by bombing the hospital? bombing a village? bombing a truckload of government delegates? handing out hundred dollar bills to people in a lame attempt at compensation?I agree, war is sometimes neccesary, and some bombs did have to fall.. but now.. this war has to end. lest the US be looked upon as bullies and draw more terrorist attacks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Tanzen
member
Location: Jacksonville, Florida USA
Member Since: 4th Feb 2002
Total posts: 55
Posted:When I used the term "twist thier arm", I was refering to NON military type tactics (such as the ecomonic sactions I mensioned).As for the colateral damage you refered to...I never said war was pretty...or perfect...just that it was neccessary.
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Tanzen------------------Ravers don't share glowsticks!


Ravers don't share glowsticks!

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Well, i am in full agreement, that sanctions and negotiations are the way to solve this..so..why are people still dying?------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well I have yet to call my friend and talk to him but I will in a few hours when he gets to work.Any how someone that is alittle bit slower to anger than I but has the same views. About time. Now its not me vs yall. (There have been others on my side but few have stuk with it more than a few posts).Any how welcome to the board Tanzen!Nomad, I wouldnt go as far as saying "I mostly disagree with RaymondPhule, but at least he doesn't have condescendant tone that excludes people who are not like him from the discussion." It wasnt on this post but I have in the past.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:....and you seem to have soften your voice and calm your initial anger (your first posts here 4 pages ago). That's a good thing.Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I read an article on Saturday in a paper about all the projects that have had federal funding cut since Bush came to power. Unsurprisingly a lot were single parent charities and family planning. Hmmm... don't ya separation of church and state
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Anyway, a 1 minute search of CNN gave me a quote from a news item:"But the spending plan for the 2003 budget year must face the new realities of a reduced financial situation -- $4 trillion in disappearing surpluses because of the recession and that tax cut. To do that, Bush wants to squeeze government programs from highway construction to job training and environmental projects."Increase spending and cut taxes = someone, somewhere losing out. And a $200 billion deficit over 2 years It may be a 2% increase across the board, but that's an average. And what's inflation in the US at the moment? If you actually look at the figures politicians talk about you'd be surprised how inflated they are.Sorry, I digress.Here's something to make you cry at the irony Nobel nomination for Bush and BlairSomething to make you cry, and a great example of freedom of speech, still valiantly fighting for life: The White House.And a great quote from somewhere: The annihilation of a problem is not the solution of a problem.


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