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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:well, the us complained that their 'S' got an unfair trail, the japs came down hard on him cos he was american. rape unfortunately is rape, and this guy deserves alot more than 2 years. but in japan rape convictions are a rarity so 2 years might seem like quiet abit. but its the attitude of the military establishment that is turely shocking, the only concern is that the japanese aurothies had the cheek to openly suggest they didn't like the us military presents in their country, expressing that though an over the top conviction by japanese standards.theres no apolgy or none has been reported, just complaints, or unfairness, i'm sorry but really, that whole attitude is just totally offencive.and then, what sort of people make up military units, where this sort of attutide is freely expressed. the sort that need to have a great many wars as outline by cantus. re 2.
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i'm so happy to have found these smilie face things, and by mistake too. [This message has been edited by itsgottab (edited 28 March 2002).]


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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Rape as a means of torture & a means of destroying a culture has to be one of the most terrifying things that I can contemplate.So many war crimes have occurred that involve the rape of women (& men in some instances, maybe less reported). With the additional horror that in some cultures the belief is that the only way of retaining the honour of the family, is to kill the woman. At the very least, she will be ostracised, and at a time when she most needs the support of her family. This is, in part, why it is done. To bring a very real dishonour on the families of those you are fighting.I can only begin to imagine that pain.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:If you believe that you are powerless and that your fate is ruled by your uncontrollable subconscious then you're doomed. However if you take positive action to change the way the world works then you can make a difference, locally and globally. A mass protest against war won't stop the war the next day, but it may influence those who make decisions, especially when government ministers are leading the march. The messages will spread slowly but they will begin to affect other people. This applies to issues from war and human rights to local politics.Ray, true power is not in guns and armies, but in words, emotions and movements.I haven't hit anyone since I was about 13, and as a kid I used to have a bit of a temper. And since then I've been hit only once, at 18, by a drunk squaddy in a club. And I've been in plenty of violent situations where fists were raised against me, and where others would have hit first. It may be self-righteous, but I think I'm better than those who resort to violence without thinking. And if I can do it, everyone else can, just by thinking and having some empathy.2 years for rape? Not enough! I thought the military was meant to be harsh, but that probably only relates to cases where somebody doesn't do what they're told.Islamic countries tend to be really awful in the treatment of rape victims. The state may just ignore the incident and the only help is from a handful of charities (some of whom are having to close down due to GW Bush reducing funding for any foreign organisation that supports abortion). In places like Afghanistan it's common for a family to murder a daughter who has been dishonored, while the male is often a friend of the family and remains as such. It's stomach churningly upsetting. I think that's one of the few things that'd lead me to violence.Peace.

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:respect to your comments, i just thought i'd clarify, that the rape committed by the american soilder against the japanese woman happened in peace time okinawa, japan.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Hilarious quote of the day from a BBC News Article"After 11 September my interest in Afghanistan grew. I rented Rambo III from the video store which shows the other side of the story. The US pumped $3.7m into weapons for Afghanistan and I didn't trust the media accounts of what was happening."Er, wouldn't a documentary be better? Or read books? No, a Hollywood film notorious for being a Stallone vehicle with dire plots was deemed by this guy to be a better source of information about Afghanistan!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH AFGANISTAN!!! I say that in caps to get through peoples skulls.Secondly, I have seen Japenesse men and women get into car acidents with Americans being the Japenesse fault and seen the American go to jail. If someone would explain that to me, I would like to know why that happens. Also if a Jap. (I am lasy therefore I will abrviate it is not a slander on the Japenesse so please do not see it as such) father finds out that his daughter has had consentual sex he still has the right to call it rape if the male did not have his approval to have sex with his daughter. It doesnt matter what nationality the man is. So with out knowing any of the facts of the case I think that the US Army was right in complaining about the sentance. None the less if it was true rape then he was let of way to friggin easy. It is a tragidy.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:No, in a strict definition you are not at war with Afghanistan. However I think what Dom (& the gentleman in question) was referring to was that the man's interest was in the situation in Afghanistan (the development of the two warring factions within the country, & the involvement of the USA & of the USSR in supporting the factions). Also how it has developed into the situation we have today. As to your points about Japan, a double standard in anyones language is hypocrisy. Although I was reading a theory about cultural difference the other day, that said often these problems have roots in cultural values. One of the first areas of difference is rules vs relationships. At an individual level, answer this question:You have a friend appearing in court for hitting a pedastrian. You were a passenger in the car, and know that they were over the speed limit. Do you:a. Tell the whole truth to the court. If your friend is a good friend they could not expect you to lie for them.b. Defend your friend. You are a good friend to them and you will support them no matter what.These are the two extremes on the scale, and there is a massive amount of ground in between. However it highlights the idea that for some the rules are most important, for others the relationship.Cultures such as the USA put heavy emphasis on rules, they have a respect for law and have an expectation that justice will be done, no matter who they are, without them having to "make an effort" beyond hiring a lawyer. A foreigner does not seek to, or expect to need to have the relationships required to present a good face to the court on such an issue. They will also be unlikely to express due deference to the court (a sort of polite & quiet acceptance) in order to keep that relationship polite. Instead they will defend strongly and loudly. A second principle is that of the individual vs the group. Is it more important for you to be an individual? Or for the group to function efficiently? Cultures such as the USA see as important the individual. Japanese culture is based strongly around the group, not standing out and not causing trouble. So when a foreigner stands up, and defends themself strongly and loudly, they are making themself stand out. They are a sticking out nail, asking to be hammered down.The different cultures cause friction, and as the courts hold the power, the response is often a harder punishment for the foreigner.From memory, the writers of that theory are Trompenaars & Hampden-Turner. That is only a little bit of it. R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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GlowWorm
member
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 18th Dec 2001
Total posts: 84
Posted:I have just been reading bits and pieces of the whole, increadibly looong thread, and coming across some comments about rape on the last page, i would like to share with you something about how bad rape has become. (This information is from SOuth Africa and areas in africa) *Rape is becomming one of the leading causes to the spreading of AIDS*1 in every 3 women, in south africa, will be raped in her lifetime*in the past 4 months, there has been an increasing number of child rapes in South Africa*in november of last year, an 18 month old baby was gang raped by her father, brothers, and uncles - this turned into a trend and at least 7 more babies were raped over the next 2 months*The reason for these rapes was that the men thought raping a virgin/baby would cure them from their AIDS status*These men were in prison for a month, and were then released*A murder in the first degree will get 2 years in jail, but will probably be released afte 6 months, maybe less.Quite scary isnt it?Quite scary, and quite infuriating.
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I find it really sad that you cant even walk down the road anymore without fearing for your life.Peace------------------ColesId love to be a glow-wormCuz a glow-worm's never glumIt's hard to be downheartedWhen a light shines out your bum


Coles
Id love to be a glow-worm
Cuz a glow-worm's never glum
It's hard to be downhearted
When a light shines out your bum

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:yeah the child sex thing is becoming a big problem all over the world. in new zealand in the past couple of months there have been heaps more reportings of adult sex with children.i have worked with teenage sex offenders in new zealand. most, 75% of them are average kind of teenagers, but some look and are little simple/intelligent/troubled and some down right werid. around half of them have serious other problems, the kind that need the-rapists, (now thats werid).usually they offend within the family first and then as they get older there victims become the neighbours/friends children and then they become stcout leaders. the interesting thing is that some teenage offenders just plane out stop and never reoffend, others of course continue until dead, and then othesrs start when they are adults, those ones just keep going until dead too.where i was working they treat it similar to an addiction, as the thought patterns work in the same/similar way. but all the therapists agree that very few ever get better. like in twos years that the place i was working at, they had had over 40 boys come through there place, they thought one boy would probably never offend again. after the amount of energy so many people put into them its pretty depressing. on this issue i think all adult offeners should be locked up for life, either that or have 24 hour supervision. most people want to shoot them, but there offending is only a small part of there personhood all be it very destructive one.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well it is starting to look like America aint the only country that half way to hell in a hand basket!!Thought I would alter the good ole phrase.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Every country has its own problem. I mean for god's sake, Australia has this man as prime minister (now known as the prime miniature, both for his physical stature, & his lack of prescence).Itsgottab: I understand your response, & am frequently close to making it myself. My experience with sexual assault has been from a different perspective. Over the past two years, I have had two friends become victims of sexual assault. One at a party, where someone with more power than sense, and access to an office, made an advance that made no allowance for no. The other was at her workplace, she is a social worker, where one of her charges misunderstood the relationship. Through them, I have come to know about others. Others who are "classic" cases of assault by strangers in dark alleyways, and most frightening, one who was killed at a party by someone who was invited as a guest. I occasionally voice the desire to castrate them all!!
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But this is at odds with my basic, pacifist beliefs. I find it very hard to reconcile my feelings & fears, with my beliefs.You cannot always be ruled by the heart, or always by the head. But the head & heart often contradict one another & are difficult to reconcile. R.P.S. I never said thanks, Itsgottab, for explaining the perspective of your students. So, thanks!!
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It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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phunky
old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 877
Posted:This thread has like three hundred and some posts and this is my first time actually looking at it... hrm...um, carry on
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------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====


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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:and i started it all, and have been reading along. not contributing anymore, just reading. a few times i have hit the reply button and typed "Raymond you really are a Phule" and then hit the back button. That kind of talk really get's nowhere.so look what this has become now..I started the thread to get support for an antiwar movement, and now it's about rape in other parts of the world.This world is fuct.We can fix it though.In fact, that is the destiny of mankind.there are enough intelligent people like Rozi and Dom around that it can be done if we all work togehter.The problem is that people like Raymond are in a position of power right now. They spoke loudly and convincingly, with guns in their hands, and the good people of the world listened to them. It is time for us to take it back. The meek shall inherit the earth. And the method will be developed using the internet as a communications medium.I am going to develop a forum similar to this one, except instead of poi being the topic, the site will be devoted to making the world a better place. we can do it people.can i hear an amen?------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:amen.(& not just cos of the flattery)
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R.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I love being called the devil of HoP. (not that anyone has actually said that)People like me have the power, wow if that wasnt one of the most retarded thing I have ever herd. In my experiences growing up people like me never had the power. In my school and town those affiliated with sports (namly football, duh american!) had the power. A skater punk like me was never expected to do anything with my life besides smoke pot and sk8. I see a similer trend here. I must admit I am not much like alot of the other HoPers out there. I am a breed to my own. You know what maybe its time I packed up and moved on. I can see that you fit me rather well into a sterotype (yes my temper does make me into a bit of an animal). If you wish to call me a typical american than so be it. "War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." JRR Tolken.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 31 March 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:ravinglunitic i agree with what you say about people with the gun having power and them useing it in strange ways that i and yourself don't agree with.but to assume people that follow these leaders are naive and will some how change there minds with new information is wishful or maybe deluded thinking, well i think so. in the case of america: this 'war machine' surpports/producers the beautiful world of america, and most people benifit from it to an extent that i seriously doubt the 'people' will want to incurr the fall in life style/culture that would result if everbody said goodbye to war.and from your posting it seems your're at war with the 'war people' in an intellectual manner. its a game you want to win, for the benifit of all people, maybe thats the good fight. war is war thou, weather with the mind or guns. to move from gun wars to mind wars seems to be...well whats the point.maybe there is a need for people to express the desire to change things, but the warring mentality is still there so will never be deffeated.talking about shit like this just prevents us from what really needs to done, and thats change ourselfs. it appears as if changing your behaviour/mind has limited effects on the world, but thats just cos you never really changed. it takes some big steps to change ones self, ones that i personally like to aviod or delay, but when they are infrequently made the results are plane to see. please don't take these words as condesending or anything to your mission of wipeing out war, i just think ultimately its a zero sum game.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I do however find it very interesting to see how Raving Lunatic, views himself as a sort of god because the post that yes indeed he started has taken off so well. As I look back, I see that without the contrabutions of few "his" topic really woundnt have gotten far. I find this as a direct reflection of his cause, his cause not unlike Osama Bin Ladins is rather ironic. Both Raving Lunatic and OBL claim to have started something and both vow (more or less) to keep on keeping on. I do find that neither have really done anything else. They have stood on the shoulders of others to elevate themselves. I must admit though that I find Raving Lunatic's approach better than OBL's none the less from a certain point of view they are one in the same.I ran accross something rather interesting the other day, it was a book called "The Wall". Now you will not find this book on any shelf at your local library (sp) it is in fact a 3" 3 ring binder and it is what we call a moral booster. Basically what it is, is a bunch of newspaper clippings with things like cartoons of alot of bombs dropping on the taliban and OBL, a few lets nuke the %^&$$$$$(* and so on and so forth. One of the cartoons I liked the most was one of Uncle Sam sitting in a chair with his head in his hands, the caption was "Give me a day to mourn my dead,... then I'll get my gun."The old saying what doesnt kill me makes me stronger comes to mind. The attacks on America did not kill all of us, they did however unite us under one common goal. I must admit that some Americans do not agree with how this goal is being obtained, or alot of the facts behind it. The goal is to rid the World of terrorists. That is an outstanding goal and if anyone disagrees then so be it, but dont come crying when the bombs start dropping on your home.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:hi raymound some people here have said you aren't a very smart fella, i don't know about that. the position you take, of being a 'red neck' (sorry if it offends) is heavliy associated with people who don't do a heck of alot of thinking, the worlds pretty black and white. but you can string afew thoughts together so i'm picking you've got more brains than some give you credit for.you have been provoked on many occasion, maybe even by myself, and you responed with glee in your eyes, rambling on this or that, we need war and so forth. but now it seems you just want to maintain your current position as a 'red neck' provoking the peaceniks.in a certain sense i think good on ya, but both camps are sensitive people, its just the peaceniks like to internalise/transform there anger and the war mongers like to go out and smash people or the enemy. both sides can learn from each other. at times it is good when anger to show it, its called being honest. at other times its worth biting your tougue and letting things slide. the problem arises for all of us when, we though habit rely on just one techneque.as the raving lunitic has done, saving up his 'ray is a fool line' and stating it as if it was merely a though, not coming out fully and saying ray some times your're a fuckin egg. as for yourself, well you just keep going like a little tropper with your war is great routine, thats cool, but how about a different line, i do think at times you have shown some thought which made me comment earlier saying prehaps you weren't as stupid as sometimes you sound.i mean i find it quite funny when you get all hot under the collar, but at the same time i can at times understand your perspective, i don't think its right or right, the decision on one issue like this has results for all other things. i personally think wars aren't cool, because wars rely on technology and technology is weakening the gene pool (technology saves premature/sick babies(sorry pele), allows stupid reckless people to surivie accidents and unlucky people who are mayhemed by the stupid, to live longer creating more unlucky circumstances. the world would be so much better if they died when they were surpposed to), hence there are more lunitics around and you don't know whos gonna try and kill you next.o.k. o.k. i just want to say chill and say someting nice to the peaceniks if you can. it seems some of you are christains, so why not get together and sing a beautiful song or pray for each other.its very late.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Itsgottab, man I got to respect you and at the same time hate you.You just dont seem to get it, I dont want to kill, I have no desire to have another mans blood on my hands, but I will serve my country in the same loving manner that a husband serves his wife and vice versa. I love my land and would die happily for it.I am a red neck and that give me great pride to say so, you just need to change your mind on what a true red neck is. Its not that we dont think or are incapeable it is that we think along different lines. Dance to the beat of a different drum. My temper is my vice that I admit open and freely but my word man I dont attack the ones you love or you because you love them, but it seams that you and others would find it a jest to attack me because of the love I have for my country and my countrymen.The only stupid thing I do is I write when I feel the need and usually it is when you or others have just gotten done pissing me off and then things just dont come out right. They are right in my head but not on paper. My brain moves faster than my hands can. Thats just a fact of my life.I have never wanted to provoke anybody and your damn right you have provoked me. I do not want to provoke the peaceniks they provoked me but peace is a good dream but it is just that a dream. It cant happen not even for one night, I am sorry to say but it is just sad that you contiue to live in a dream world. Wake up and smell the java people, you dont have to support war heck support peace but know this, unfortunatly it cant happen.I will repeat what I said in a previous post."War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." JRR Tolken.If that prevokes you, grow some thicker skin and suck it up.The only nice thing that I can come up with right now is this, I do not wish for war to exist.But since it does I will do my part to prevent it from consuming all that I love.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 02 April 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:just a point, but... you'd have better luck trying to eliminate the entire rat population of the world, than terrorists. Can you not see that this is rhetoric aimed at misleading the short attention span of most in the US? Someone will always be denouncing terrorism, while someone is converted. So what are we fighting for in Afghanistan? Most of the people we support there now, have been, or are tied to the Taliban. But that doesn't matter. We don't really care! We just want to LOOK like we care. Our country is full of christian hyppocrites. For people that preach so loud, condemn and judge others for their actions, the christian leaders of the US are the first to KILL. What's the reason? Just like the constitution, people have added CRAP into the bible making it okay to KILL(isn't this what the terrorists, did, too?). Ten commandments? Though shall not kill! It doesn't go on in fine print, except in cases of self defense, or eliminating terrorists. I was raised catholic, but have turned my back on it, for moral reasons. If the leaders of the US had the LEAST bit of scrouples, this shit wouldn't happen. There are EVIL people that have nothing in sight execpt for money and power. These seem to be the most adamant pushers of morals and justice. Really, they just want a diversionary tactic, so they can rob everyone blind while the good hearted try to help.And don't go on and say that's why we're fighting the "Al-kida". We're not doing it for the women or the children or the innocent. Where were we a year ago when women were being stoned to death for going outside without a male relative?Take the Isreali-Palestinian conflict.The western world is saying Arafat MUST do something to stop these "terrorists", while they encircle him with tanks, shoot missiles into his compounds, destroy his police force, starve him, cut off his power and communication. Now, after undermining all of his authority and ability to do anything to stop the terrorists, the West gets pissed that terrorist attacks still happen. Why is this? Because we don't really care!!Black and White.You CAN'T be good if you do evil things!Just like Ray said, Everything is black and white.So if you walk like a duck, look like a duck and quack like a duck, you're a Fucking duck...It doesn't matter what you say, or what you do, some people will always be able to see through the bullshit and view you for what you are.[This message has been edited by toneman (edited 02 April 2002).]

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xtremravr...was here..
member
Location: amsterdam..i wish
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2002
Total posts: 337
Posted:WOW....well put tony.."if you look like a duck, quack like a duck walk like a duckthen you are a fucking duck...lol...well back to quacking and wadling for me...guess the cat..err..duck is out of the bag...lol...c'mon guys why cant we al just hit tha bong?...p.l.u.r.r.Xtrem

Peace Luv Uni-t Respect Responsa-what?!?! Xtrem

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually if you want to be literal the Bible said Thou shall not commit murder! Killing is different, say for instance your driveing safely on a winter road, you hit a spot of black ice slide accross the road and hit another car. The driver dies. You did not murder the driver but your unintentionaly killed the driver. Thus there is a diferance between killing and murder.I am sorry I do not recall the "West" shooting misiles and other crap into his compound. Now Isriale yes they have but not the west.You know what this is like I have said many times before. YOUR DAMNED IF YOUR DO, AND YOUR DAMNED IF YOU DONT. So I reverse the question, where the fuck were you when that woman was getting stoned? You were probably doing the same thing I was. Sitting at home hacking away at a keyboard bitching about one thing or another.Toneman you are crazyer than I and know even less than I about the current situation. I am not saying this to piss you off just to point out a few things.I know I have come off as rude and pissed off, I am alittle but onle alittle.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:geez.. i don't think i am god, nor do i think i can really be compared to Osama Bin Laden.I will not argue, it's pointless.something you need to understand, is that words and meanings can be very different. in words, israel is not the west, and the west is not at war with afghanistan.BUT, in meaning:Israel IS the west for all intents and purposes. a judaic island in the middle of muslim territory. supported and backed by the christian west.In afghanistan, the war may not be against their country, but it is their soil being bombed, their innocents being killed. The US is just as guilty of kiling for ideological reasons as the perpetrators of september 11th I merely think that there is a better solution than carpet bombing. i don't care what it is, just stop dropping bombs on these poor people.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Bear
member
Location: Seattle,
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2002
Total posts: 8
Posted:I just came upon this board and found it speaks about many things that have been on my mind. There is a good variety of thought--here are my opinions.Killing two people to avenge the death of one has never worked. It did not work for the Nazis, it is not working for the Israeles, and it will not work for us Americans. We are currently in a war with Afganistan that has almost nothing to do with protecting us from terrorists. In the long run it will create more terrorists.Mankind's destiny is forged by the sleezy mean 10 percent of us. Whether they are the reason we lock our doors, or they are in the board room of Enron, they control how our society behaves. Too bad, but true. That ten percent are the ones ruthless enough to get into jail or into power and they usually have no regard for the common good. I remember American presidents since Truman, and Jimmy Carter was the only moral man in the bunch. He was run out in shame.Currently we have a bunch of profiteering jackals in power, hiding behind the stars and stripes while stripping our civil liberties so that the good old USofA can be more like the dictatorships, friendly to our corporate masters, that we support all over the globe. The "war" is a smoke screen to hide the stripping of our environment for their personal profit along with keeping taps on the oil resources in the middle east and asia. We are being sold on obscene oil consumption as the American way of life. This guarantees both war in the middle east and profits for Bush and his buddies.The US practices corporate welfare and urges consumption in extremely irresponsible and unsustainable ways. What we call capitalism is no more like true capitalism than Russian communism was like real communism. We have a gargantuan military configured more for world conquest than for national defense, and it is still getting bigger. What a waste of money and human resources. Our Capitalism will collapse as hard and fast as the Russian empire did, and for many of the same reasons. Unfortunately, it will have much greater world wide repercussions. We will probably revert back to warring tribes. I hope the tribe I end up in values art as much as agression, and lives sustainably instead of having to conquer and enslave in order to satisfy its greed.I come to these conclusions from studying history and evolution. I recently realized that this is God's design for mankind and fighting it is like pissing into the wind. I associate with the 90 percent of the population that are not the ruthless creeps and I can find enjoyment in life no mater what happens.I value peace as the smart way but accept war as the human way. Our species is not nearly as smart as it thinks it is.

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xtremravr...was here..
member
Location: amsterdam..i wish
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2002
Total posts: 337
Posted:FIRST OFF..i cant believe that this thread is still going...WTF????? anyways back to what i was gonna say...RAY~~who in the fuck are you to say that you are smarter or what the fuck ever than anyone else on this board?!?!?! you have to be the biggest fuckin moron on here for sitting here and bithcing and whining about oohh poor america, for one ive done alot of research lately on this subjuect...americas governing sys. and the leaders of america did this to us!!! they are the ones who are going around to other countries and cutting them off from recieving goods that they believe they need, who the fuck are we to tell them that they can not have these things. then you say and i quote "YOU ARE DAMNED IF YOU DO AND DAMNED IF YOU DONT"...WTF?!?!?! kind of statement is that?!?! the one of a fuckin idiot in my book. im only 20 yrs old, you a fuckin mmarine or navy boy or whatever...so why in the fuck are you not over in afghanistan (sp?) fighting the taliban?!?!! isnt that what our f'ed up government is paying you to do?!?!...i mean c'mon sounds to me like your a bunch of fuckin talk and no fuckin walk!!! you need to get YOUR shit straight before you start barking do's and dont's at peopl on here!!! o yeah on another note...since toneman was talking about ducks...did you know that a ducks quack doesnt echo???...o yeah and turtles can breath thru there butt?...pretty crazy stuff...well i think my work is done here....WILL A MOD PLEASE GET RID OF THIS WASTE OF A THREAD THAT HAS A BUNCH OF NICE PEOPLE ARGUING OVER SOME SUBJECT THAT NONE OF US CAN CHANGE?!?!?! P-P-PLEASE!!!

Peace Luv Uni-t Respect Responsa-what?!?! Xtrem

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Great post Bear. I agree with what you said about the 10% controlling the stuff.. the question is.. why?there are 90% of us, and only 10 of them! (or at least the 30% who have the ambition to do something about what we care about, instead of sitting by watching it happen)we could easily overpower them. all it takes is for us to organize, and act in unity.XTRMRAVR.. chill out. there is no need for anger and cussing.don't like the thread, don't read it.obviously, some people are learning, growing, and wanting to talk about it.there is no reason to close the thread.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:xtremraver what you say may be ture, but if your're quiet willing to receive and persue the benfits from your evil governments actions, are you an accomplus to the crime? i think so. the people and the government are linked, to take the position of powerlessness. where the govt. does this and that out of your control, corprates controlling your life, come man they only control your life if you let them, buy their shit, work for their companies bla blas bla. to blame someone else is the easy way out. lets blame everything on someone else, your head is wired the some way as your governments, its not our policies that caused some people to fly planes into our buildings, they're just crazy dudes lets go bomb the fuckers. thats the problem. try living your life so that you don't purshace shit from corprates, don't go cold turkey though, jst go slow with it. thats how things will change, stop the exchange with those you don't like, i mean you do that with people don't you.when reduced down to it, rays position is one we would all share. defend your land and people. now i don't think this is the best idea to base all others off, but its gotta figure somewhere pretty high up there.

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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:what are you saying 'overpower them' you now sound just as crazy as those your trying to replace. i'm totalling confussed by your position raving lunitic.

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:yeah, i guess overpower was not the word to use..i think things need to be changed, but i do not support violent revolution, or violence of any kind.more of a pacifistic sort of resitance.just deciding, all at once, not to obey the laws any more, because they are unjust.it is the principle of direct action.for example, a peaceful protest. even that, is recognizing the authority of the people to be there, by the very fact of protesting them. direct action is simply, not letting them do it any more, acting as if they have no authority over you at all..now.. this is a dream, a very idealistic one. I know this. I am not delusional, i do not think it will ever happen. but what if, every soldier, simultaneously decided, too put down his gun. no diplomacy, no negotian, no treay.just. stop. killing.will this ever happen? no. i know this. BUT, by my very spewing this rhetoric on the net, i can maybe open a few peoples minds, and work towards that eventual goal.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Oh my god Rozi! The smiles on that family are scary!I wouldn't say that people like Ray have the power. They give power to people. The masses of people are swayed by politicians and the media the politicians influence, and this gives the politicians power. The majority of people give little thought to anything outside their day to day lives, except what they're fed by outside sources like the media.As members of this mass of people we have the opportunity to get involved, become part of a movement and change things. We're inside the system, the perfect place to change how it runs. I think talking about things helps get people thinking, and if they're thinking that's going to bring about a change in the person. Starts small, and hopefully it grows. And that's why this thread is still going, Xtremravr, because talk is good. It's great to hear so many people are looking into what's wrong at home and abroad and this thread helps to spread that.toneman, made sense to me. Written with emotion too!Ray, if you want to be literal about the bible, you can't! Nobody knows who wrote it and over the centuries it's been pieced together, fleshed out, re-written and translated countless times, and often to suit the particular church or leader at the time. (e.g. the Bible doesn't mention Jesus's older brother because it caused a few problems for the foundling church!). There are no pretty much equal numbers of academics, priests, etc.. who think the translation of the sixth commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Murder" or "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Kill appears in the St James translation, which is generally considered one of the best translations. Due to the fact that the bible is apparently all God's words maybe when it was translated God acted through the translators and made sure it was 'kill'? It can't be proven one way or the other. Better be safe than sorry
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Within 10 minutes of returning from an amazing weekend I was reduced to a ball of impotent anger. Israel and Palestine continue to descend into hell, and the rest of the world does nothing, and is helping feed Sharon's madness and allowing him to piggy-back the anti terrorist war. Israel is creating an oppressed people, classed as sub-human with less rights, living in isolated and controlled areas and is determined to reduce Palestine to a structureless mass which it can then get rid of. Sounds like Nazi Germany to me. Israel has become that which is was created to escape, and the West has done little to stop it. Really, really upset me.There's a bunch of you guys I'd love to sit round with, chill and chat endlessly with. Maybe one day...


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