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Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
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Posted:Sure, I'm just as stubborn as you, hence discussion going nowhere. However it may be interesting for others to read through
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I read an article and try to find hope, you read it and find the one militant Taliban and the one uneducated child .Hasan has no home, no food, no books, no TV, no computer, no shoes and will spend the next year or so living in a tent with no education. Why does he think the US is at war with Afghanistan? Think about this from how they perceive the US action. Hasan and his family know no Al Quaeda, they do not support the Taliban, they have never hurt anyone. But they now have no home, no life beyond a refuge camp. How can they not see that as an attack on them? You may say otherwise, but actions speak louder than words."No crime was committed against the UK so why should the UK be given Bin Ladin." You didn't read properly here. I meant that the UK has, in a cell somewhere, Al Quaeda members. Before they're handed over to the US we need evidence of guilt, a judicial process that applies in most of the civilised world (except in the military, and that's not a good thing is it!). So why did the US think it could treat Afghanistan differently to the UK? US law only applies when it feels like it. Go democracy!!!The world is very grey. Bush did mean you're with the US or not. It told Pakistan to help or be bombed!The IRA is only one group of many. The problems of Northern Ireland are becoming less violent as the causes of violence were tackled, and support for them was reduced. The UK tried assassination, internment and troops on every street, and guess what, it didn't work!! It was actually the Clinton administration that help all sides talk, not fight. Shame the current US government isn't as sensible or world aware.India: 2 groups claim to have carried out the attack. Therefore one or both are lying. Who knows who really did it. 'This "Empire" strikes back'. Er... wasn't the attack in India striking back at the US for striking back at Al Quaeda (and the Taliban) who were striking back at the US for their own long list of reasons. And this ends where? Remember the cold war? The fact that a war would completely destroy the world prevented one. Now the possibility is that this will still happen, and is happening, but will just take a bit longer, and nobody has seen it, everybody is busy killing each other off slowly. Violence breeds violence.Don't let things go to hell, make them better. Violence makes nothing better, you may feel better, the the problem is still there. Read that MLK quote on the top of the page again.[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 23 January 2002).]
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I read an article and try to find hope, you read it and find the one militant Taliban and the one uneducated child .Hasan has no home, no food, no books, no TV, no computer, no shoes and will spend the next year or so living in a tent with no education. Why does he think the US is at war with Afghanistan? Think about this from how they perceive the US action. Hasan and his family know no Al Quaeda, they do not support the Taliban, they have never hurt anyone. But they now have no home, no life beyond a refuge camp. How can they not see that as an attack on them? You may say otherwise, but actions speak louder than words."No crime was committed against the UK so why should the UK be given Bin Ladin." You didn't read properly here. I meant that the UK has, in a cell somewhere, Al Quaeda members. Before they're handed over to the US we need evidence of guilt, a judicial process that applies in most of the civilised world (except in the military, and that's not a good thing is it!). So why did the US think it could treat Afghanistan differently to the UK? US law only applies when it feels like it. Go democracy!!!The world is very grey. Bush did mean you're with the US or not. It told Pakistan to help or be bombed!The IRA is only one group of many. The problems of Northern Ireland are becoming less violent as the causes of violence were tackled, and support for them was reduced. The UK tried assassination, internment and troops on every street, and guess what, it didn't work!! It was actually the Clinton administration that help all sides talk, not fight. Shame the current US government isn't as sensible or world aware.India: 2 groups claim to have carried out the attack. Therefore one or both are lying. Who knows who really did it. 'This "Empire" strikes back'. Er... wasn't the attack in India striking back at the US for striking back at Al Quaeda (and the Taliban) who were striking back at the US for their own long list of reasons. And this ends where? Remember the cold war? The fact that a war would completely destroy the world prevented one. Now the possibility is that this will still happen, and is happening, but will just take a bit longer, and nobody has seen it, everybody is busy killing each other off slowly. Violence breeds violence.Don't let things go to hell, make them better. Violence makes nothing better, you may feel better, the the problem is still there. Read that MLK quote on the top of the page again.[This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 23 January 2002).]
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Posted:I personally don't put much stock in theories suggesting that the Americans bombed themselves but I fell duty bound to pass on this info about a TV show which discusses the issue. Someone might tape it on Thursday.JohnDate: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:47:58 -0500From: Barrie Subject: What really happened on Sept. 11?Watch Vision TV at 10:30 (Eastern Time) tonight[that's 7:30 p.m. Pacific Time]Hello all:As far as I know the MediaFile Edition of VisionTV Insight will be the first current affairs TV program in Canada to dare to suggest the CIA, Pentagon and White House may be complicit in the horrendous events of Sept. 11th, 2001.This will be on the program to air tonight at 10:30 ET. The program will be re-broadcast on Thursday at 7am and 1pm ET.As many people studying this even superficially know, there are compelling reasons to disbelieve the official narrative.One example: The President of the United States has with him at all times Secret Service officers in constant electronic communication with significant others. The drama began at 7:45 in the morning. The hit on the first WTC tower -- a cataclysmic event -- was at 8:45. The second tower was hit at 9:03.Millions of people by this time were watching the events unfold live on TV.Yet we are supposed to believe the President received the first word at 9:05.We are supposed to believe it was normal for him then to continue to listen to a grade school student talk about her pet goat.The mainstream media, incredibly, have refused to raise any significant questions about these and other equally suspicious, puzzling, highly significant, questions.Their failure is abject.Watch VisionTV Insight--the MediaFile Edition, where questions are raised that other media will not raise. And tell your friends. This program is the first of a series on "What Really Happened on 9/11?" And your feedback is sought.Yours for more skepticism in media,BarrieA producer, and host of, The MediaFile EditionThis message was forwarded by:--=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- Richard Sanders, Coordinator, Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade (COAT) (A network of individuals and NGOs across Canada and around the world)Tel: 613-231-3076 --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=-- --=--John------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
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DeletePosted:Something more realistic from a CNN show:Transcript Part One Transcript Part TwoTalks about the possibility that before September 11 the U.S. administration cared more about its oil interests and the oil in the region than it did about getting Osama bin Laden.Just a theory...
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Posted:unfortunatly horrible thing happen in the world. And I am sorry about your losses.I (being a "civilian" and watching cnn too much) have my own opinions about where Mr. Bush should shove his bombs. And guessing by the tone in your typing and repeted "f-words" im sure your not to fond of "canadian piss ants" either. i probably shouldnt even be writing this as its a lost cause and is just going to cause even more anger. but i really think America (when i say america im talking about the armys, not the people) needs to re assess there problems. and yes alot of people were lost. and yes these terrorists should be held accountable. BUT i dont feel that the innocent people of afghanistan shoudl be "punished" and driven from thier homes and have thier families seperated because of it. just get who you need and get the hell out. that all there is too it. ive had friends and family killed off because of war too. and its a sad thing to have happen.
Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.
Posted:and id like to add a few things too abotu canada just because i feel like we get crapped on to much because we attempt to keep peace.speaking from my experiances i have been to many a peace rally and fundrasier to "save the U.S" so to speak. im not a fighter (unless its with swords and is pretend fighting)I went out to all of these peace rallys with my poi ans pun for hours straight. i made over 50 dollers on my own (canadian) and so what if our dollers arent as strong etc.that money went to help a fireman's family.its not much but it helps. I would love to say that Canada is built on peace. and maybe we are piss ants for it but i havent seen a single moment when canada was not by the U.S.A's side for what ever decision they made, good or bad. i just hope it all end soon and people can rebuild and maybe learn from mistakes, i cant talk about this stuff any more i have to go do something positive now.
Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.
Posted:WOW!! First let me recover from The DANDY WARHOLS being quoted on such an intense thread... , second , I find this thread extremely interesting,I think its wonderful to be able to see what others are thinking/feeling on a global level INCLUDING military personel. Being in the US during all this has been an adventure (as i am sure it has been everywhere) I was in a military town in North Carolina when this all went down, babtist preachers were standing with schoolchildren around american flags preaching about God & patriotism.I had to flash my ID more than once to go from point a-b, I was not online, so the only available news source was the general media.. I was right by a nuclear plant, and there were HUGE military aircraft flying about.. often.it was scary.. (by the way for some really great news sources globally on this whole thing check out http://www.antiwar.com
scroll down to the bottom left and click the link for more headlines from today...very differant from what makes it on the 6:00) I decided to head back to the west coast and travelled cross country in my van shortly after that. Often i felt i was in some twisted parade with all the american flags flying about, The military checkpoints with the guys and the big weapons was something i had never seen before... The questioning i got made me uneasy (this may not have happened if we hadn't rigged a pirate flag to our van in order to not be left out of the parade) I really feel that me being a woman with two children is the only thing that kept me out of further scrutiny. Imagine answering.. "who are you,what is your profession, where are you going, what is your buisiness there" when you can only say "I'm a 29 yr old pyro artist, heading west because the deep south is freaking me out and i'm praying everyone in this country is not wanting to Nuke some country they were unaware even existed." Needless to say i am happy to be back on the west coast and as this war continues more people are speaking up and saying things they were unsure of saying a few monthes ago.It looks as if this war will go on for a very long time (at least 6-8 years the reports are saying) And Bush will be able to stay in office as long as we are engaged in war, I have genuine concerns about all the bills being passes on a global level that affect pretty much all the REAL issues that i as an individual, a mother, & a human am concerned about.There is absolutely nothing i can do about it. I feel for those who have suffered personal loss through all this.. and i also am amazed at the numbers of american citizans that are basically ignorant of the atrocities the us government & military have been a part of for many years, and still are. I fear for the planet and its populants as a whole, however this is civilization, and war is an inevitable consequence. I don't know if there is really anything any organization or group of people can do that will bring peace. I hope so, it would be wonderful if that were a possibility, the only real way i can see at the moment is for people to become as active as they can on a small grassroots local level to incite positive change. The entire thing is just really horrid.
scroll down to the bottom left and click the link for more headlines from today...very differant from what makes it on the 6:00) I decided to head back to the west coast and travelled cross country in my van shortly after that. Often i felt i was in some twisted parade with all the american flags flying about, The military checkpoints with the guys and the big weapons was something i had never seen before... The questioning i got made me uneasy (this may not have happened if we hadn't rigged a pirate flag to our van in order to not be left out of the parade) I really feel that me being a woman with two children is the only thing that kept me out of further scrutiny. Imagine answering.. "who are you,what is your profession, where are you going, what is your buisiness there" when you can only say "I'm a 29 yr old pyro artist, heading west because the deep south is freaking me out and i'm praying everyone in this country is not wanting to Nuke some country they were unaware even existed." Needless to say i am happy to be back on the west coast and as this war continues more people are speaking up and saying things they were unsure of saying a few monthes ago.It looks as if this war will go on for a very long time (at least 6-8 years the reports are saying) And Bush will be able to stay in office as long as we are engaged in war, I have genuine concerns about all the bills being passes on a global level that affect pretty much all the REAL issues that i as an individual, a mother, & a human am concerned about.There is absolutely nothing i can do about it. I feel for those who have suffered personal loss through all this.. and i also am amazed at the numbers of american citizans that are basically ignorant of the atrocities the us government & military have been a part of for many years, and still are. I fear for the planet and its populants as a whole, however this is civilization, and war is an inevitable consequence. I don't know if there is really anything any organization or group of people can do that will bring peace. I hope so, it would be wonderful if that were a possibility, the only real way i can see at the moment is for people to become as active as they can on a small grassroots local level to incite positive change. The entire thing is just really horrid.
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Posted:Interesting "discussion" ;-)Raymund, you said before: **Sorry it took so long for me to reply I was in Bangkok this weekend drunk off my rocker for most of it even spent about an hour Cambodia just over the river Kwia. Trust me there is alot of history in that area. If yall want to know about real war just do a little serch on the birdge over the river Kwia. More crap happend to those POWs then and terrorist could imagine doing to us. **This river is called the river Kwai, it's next to Myanmar (formerly known as Burma). Think you've been there instead of Cambodia which is about 400 km to the east of there...
No need to be void,...Or save up on life,...Got to spend it all,...
DeletePosted:nice posts everyone!grass roots movement? it's coming..email agressivepacifist@hotmail.com------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
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DeleteRozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I don't really know how to start this post...I spent a long time reading what all had to say, and just want to beg you all to step back for a moment, because there is a deeper argument here. We are debating at two different levels, at one level we are debating how the world is (whether the U.S. is wrong/right/indifferent, whether the rest of the world is the same) and at another we are debating how we would like the world to be. And so Raymond will describe his world as it feels now, and others will respond by describing how they would like the world to be (full of peace and joy, and without war), and a little about how they see the world now in a different way to Raymond. With that level of difference, "is" versus "should be", we are going to find it damn hard to come to an agreement. We will certainly never agree on how the world "is", although we might make some headway on how the world "should be". I don't want to portray this argument as a lost cause, but I think we may all benefit from the recognition that we may never convince each other, and we cannot blame the other for not being able to see what we can see. It takes the sting out of the discussion. An example, I am a brit citizen, and was about to get mad as hell about a comment "need I remind you of your own governments past how they treated the Scots and the Welsh not to mention the Irish. Because you refuse to give them the freedome that they want your busses and subways have become death traps." I used to be terrified of such things happening to my family back in the UK, and at the same time, felt truly sorry for the situation. I fully recognised the two wrongs that were occurring, the suppression of the people of Ireland, Scotland & Wales, and the terror felt by the people in the UK. I was just about ready to blow up at such a seemingly flippant and contradictory comment. Yet Raymond has no way of knowing how I felt, and what my reaction would be, he has never seen through my eyes and felt the odd mixture of guilt and anger. And so I cannot shout, I can only explain my pain in a calm cool voice how I feel, and hope it is received in the spirit intended. Raymond, we know you are feeling pain, yet we cannot empathise with it as we cannot possible understand the magnitude. We come to it with eyes that see different things to you. Please explain it to us in a calm cool voice, and know that we will listen and try to understand in the same way as I am sure you will try to understand my comments.Well, my 2 cents is paid. Take care all of you 'cos it can be a scary world we live in...Roz
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
Posted:Perhaps we should start our own war to decide whether war is wrong or not
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DeleteRozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Perhaps we should start a discussion on it, without releasing those damn hounds!!!Maybe by stepping back from using this one example as the be all & end all, we might get somewhere!!Don't think that I am condoning war, it is a terrible thing that should not exist. But right now it does exist, and our efforts should be concentrated on discussing how we can stop it from occurring in the future. That does require a dis-passionate analysis of what has occurred in the past, but that in itself requires that we divest ourselves of the emotions surrounding the topic.------------------A bit like getting mugged by a hamster...[This message has been edited by Rozi (edited 23 January 2002).]
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
Posted:Unfortunaly I am at work and do not have time to read all the posts since I last wrote so I will respond to what I have read. Dom, dude you and I, I could honestly see us being good friends if we would put our polittical and war views aside. This is a darn good little debate we got goin here I must admit that. Any how I have not read your CNN transcripts so I will avoid that topic. As far as the news goes CNN BBC and others are companies am I not right. They will report what they feel will get the most viewers. Capitalisim at its best. i.e. more viewers more sponsers, more sponcers more money. SorchaTheFlaming, I took great offence when you said "And guessing by the tone in your typing and repeted "f-words" im sure your not to fond of "canadian piss ants" either". I hope you were not attempting to quote me cuz I do not ever recall calling anyone a piss ant.I do appologyse for my repeated use of the "f-word". I feel that you have a little predgudis against Americans.Back to Doms post in responce to me.I can and do understand how Hasan can see it as America is attacking him and his country. I do feel sorry for his plight. Alot of NOTALL but alot of muslims in that region feel that what the terroists did was a true calling of Alah. Maybe those people in your cells have never done anything that could be called an act of terror but they more than likly know something about the attacks on the WTC and others. That is one reason why we need those people we need to find out what they know and if any uneducated slime ball even thinks of mentioning that the U.S. would use torture, then I would be more than happy to smack em uplong side the head. (said just as a precaution because I bet someone would have said it somewhere.) The empire strikes back thing sorry about that I had just gotten done watching star wars and with what that guy said well I have a good imagination and a poor sence of humor. Please do not take that litteraly. I need to start adding
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every now and then.I will write more laters.
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every now and then.I will write more laters.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Musicminded...*thinks to self: gee everyone thinks that I am a liar now* Ok so Haaf is about a rock when he said it was Cambodia. Heck I was so hung over you could have said it was france and I would have believed ya. any hooRozi, I liked your post and in the "tone of voice" it was written in. (oxymoron... written voice) I also in no way shape or form wanted to offend you but I mainly wanted to point out that in the past everyone has made tragic mistakes. How do I feel in a calm cool and collected manor.~~ I am rather angry that someone would say that what I and my counterparts are doing is wrong. War exists without guns and other weapons. People enjoy wathcing the latest action flick or playing cowboys and indians or even the grand ole SCA. I enjoyed or do in enjoy all of those things but to say that standing up for my rights and freedoms is wrong is just plain ludicriss in my mind. To say that Mr. Bush is a oilgreedy war mongering hate filled psycho with a nuke is rather obserd. That was not a quote so please dont think it is. I will stand up for my president just as I would take a bullet for him. Not only is that my job but it is something that I would do for just about everyone. Now I do not have all the facts, in fact due to me not even being in America I do not get all the news that some of you get heck I do not even get CNN here. The news we do get I dont watch because I only know a few words in Thai and those are only used at the beging and end of each broadcast. I really do not know how to tell you of my pain. What I can tell you is that almost all of us have lost someone in their family and to have someone tarnish their memory by saying that going after the cuase of their death is wrong really just pissed me off and it all went down hill form there. Who are you to judge America and its president and say we are wrong. Our methods might be against what is populer or what pop culture says. (so I have a distaste for pop music, sue me)
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What is right is not always populer and what is populer may not always be right. I do feel bad that innocent have died on both sides. If I could go back and save just one person from dieing do you not think I would? I am sorry but raising $50 for green peace aint gonna change the world. I love my country as all of you can see. I have said many times that I would die for her with out question. Let me use an example this goes twords Dom a bit. If you loved someone truly loved someone would you not jump infront of a bullet for them? If you answerd yes then why is so hard for people to understand that I would do the same for several million people and do it with out question? Now that I have gotten way off the subject of my pain. My pain is with me and I will not let it go untill I can see my aunts grave and let her know that her nephiew did his job for his country and her memory. My pain is what gets me through the day. I do not expect any of you to understand or even empithise with this. I doubt that alot of you who would not be willing to make the same sacrifice I am could even understand what I mean. Do not blast me untill you have walked a mile in my shoes. And I do not think that many of you can because if you could you would also have the same title I bare proudly. Black and white there is no grey you can not sit on the perverbial fence. You can not say I am both evil and good, you can only claim one or the other. You are either perfect or flawed there is no middle ground.
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What is right is not always populer and what is populer may not always be right. I do feel bad that innocent have died on both sides. If I could go back and save just one person from dieing do you not think I would? I am sorry but raising $50 for green peace aint gonna change the world. I love my country as all of you can see. I have said many times that I would die for her with out question. Let me use an example this goes twords Dom a bit. If you loved someone truly loved someone would you not jump infront of a bullet for them? If you answerd yes then why is so hard for people to understand that I would do the same for several million people and do it with out question? Now that I have gotten way off the subject of my pain. My pain is with me and I will not let it go untill I can see my aunts grave and let her know that her nephiew did his job for his country and her memory. My pain is what gets me through the day. I do not expect any of you to understand or even empithise with this. I doubt that alot of you who would not be willing to make the same sacrifice I am could even understand what I mean. Do not blast me untill you have walked a mile in my shoes. And I do not think that many of you can because if you could you would also have the same title I bare proudly. Black and white there is no grey you can not sit on the perverbial fence. You can not say I am both evil and good, you can only claim one or the other. You are either perfect or flawed there is no middle ground.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Well well, this continues.I too, am at work, and don't have much time..a few things i'd like to sayit IS gray, not black and white, we are ALL flawed in some way, that's what makes us individuals.I agree with your distaste of pop music too phule, so, we have something in common.
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so, you'd take a bullet for your country? that's honorable I'd do the same. But. this is war spearheaded by the US is not in self defense. the perpetrators of the act are already dead. your not taking a bullet for your country, your shooting a bullet into someone else, someone who only happens to have the same religion and geographic location as the original shooter. some of these people are women and children. most of them have no say in what the taliban or al qaeda do. they have no internet, no news save for al jazeera which is more biased than CNN!that is all for now.I am going to a meeting of an antiwar coalition in my area. the peaceniks are going to rise up.$50 for greenpeace? hell.. get 10,000 people to do that, you got half a million dollars.
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so, you'd take a bullet for your country? that's honorable I'd do the same. But. this is war spearheaded by the US is not in self defense. the perpetrators of the act are already dead. your not taking a bullet for your country, your shooting a bullet into someone else, someone who only happens to have the same religion and geographic location as the original shooter. some of these people are women and children. most of them have no say in what the taliban or al qaeda do. they have no internet, no news save for al jazeera which is more biased than CNN!that is all for now.I am going to a meeting of an antiwar coalition in my area. the peaceniks are going to rise up.$50 for greenpeace? hell.. get 10,000 people to do that, you got half a million dollars.
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DeletePosted:Raymund, just thought it was a bit odd Cambodia and River Kwai. Wasn't suggesting you are a liar... Anyway, if you're living in Bangkok, there's a Thai guy playing and selling poi on Khao San Road. Opposite the maffia headquarters (police station). He's there from 23:00 till 03:00 in the morning, his name is Alift. He's an amazing player. So bloody subtle in his moves. He taught me some cool stricks. I'm quite sure he has some tricks you haven't seen yet. Just ask around for him...Not gonna take part in this discussion, afraid of getting slaughtered ;-)
No need to be void,...Or save up on life,...Got to spend it all,...
DeletePosted:Raymund, we're not questioning your loyality or patriotism. I'd die to save those I love, but not my country. That's my opinion. However it scares me when you call it part of your 'job'. No job is worth a life. Your job is a marine, your sacrifice should be seperate from that, although it's obviously going to mean you're a better marine for it.Only quick replies to quotes:1) re your quote about your aunt: "someone tarnish their memory by saying that going after the cuase of their death".Saying this war is wrong is in no way tarnishing the memory of anyone who died on Sept 11th. Some victims families are happy we're bombing the f**k out of Afghanistan, but others think the war tarnishes the victim's memory. Many have said that they don't want more people suffering in their name.A similar thing is often utter by survivors of other wars, like WW2. They hate anti war people as they think it degrades the memory of previous wars and those who died in them. To them my answer is along the lines of:Think how many people died in the World Wars, those who lie in trenches in France, Russia, beneath the waves, wherever. You served with these men, and they became your brothers, and they died. If there was some way to save their lives, would you have tried to take that course? Obviously that answer is yes. We, those who are against war, wish to find that way so that more good people do not lose their lives. Surely never has there been a more worthy cause than saving lives.2) "I am sorry but raising $50 for green peace aint gonna change the world"Q: How do you eat an elephant? A: Bit by bit.Q: How do you change the world? A: Mind by mind.3) "Who are you to judge America and its president and say we are wrong."I'm a free individual of the world with the right to speak my mind. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, don't threaten it.
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Posted:I am a sum of:the good things i have donethe bad things i have donethe happiness i made people feeland the sadness i have broughti have physically hurt peopleand have physically helped peoplei've fed hungry peopleand passed by homeless people with callous in my hearti have thrown stones, when my own home is made of glassi've intentionally poked sore spots when i could have helpedi've been mean and spiteful and vengeful and even hatefulbut that doesn't mean the glow i have to offer should be negatednor does it mean because i have a glow that i am uniqueit is up to me to choose my pathto make myself specialto make the world say, "i'm glad he was alive"when you are gone, will the world remember your deeds? your actions? were they good or bad? how did you help us?how did you hurt us?are we really better off since you offered to kill in our name?or are we just your accomplices because we didn't stop you? i can't stop being who i am, to let you be who you arebut i would not stop you with the ultimate forcebringing about another being's death is still murder. reasoning with yourself to make it acceptable is still just reasoning with yourself. self defense is not an excuse. self defense is an evolutionary exuse. I am not just an animal.Are you?now for the important stuff....Spin world, Spin...
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Posted:"Black and white there is no grey"...? "You can not say I am both evil and good"...? The world is the perfect example of gray. From a personal point of view things can be black or white, but different people have different ideas of what is black and what is white, and can disagree whether one thing (war, for example
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) is black or white. By my (slightly skewed) reckoning, that makes things gray. One of the things that makes us all human is empathy: the ability to see things from other people's point of view. I'm not involved in this war at all, and I'd like to think I can see both sides of it equally. While an objective point of view is important, it's just as important not to back off too far- so far as not to be able to empathise with Raymond's loss or the plight of the Afghan refugees. See, more gray...? Sitting on the fence isn't the same as not judging things in black and white, IMO. I can see how for a marine thinking in shades of gray might be dangerous- the last thing you need in combat is indecision, but fighting in a war is different to starting one. There's no way I'd make it as a marine... I'm a philosopher (I have a piece of paper that says so!), not a soldier... hehe, but we play different roles. Jumping face first into a war, throwing accusations of black-and-white-ness around surely isn't a good idea... when there could be a more gray alternative. 'Think gray'- now that's a really dull slogan.
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Spin on... T-------------------"I think it's time to discuss your philosophy on drug use as it relates to artistic endeavour..."-
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) is black or white. By my (slightly skewed) reckoning, that makes things gray. One of the things that makes us all human is empathy: the ability to see things from other people's point of view. I'm not involved in this war at all, and I'd like to think I can see both sides of it equally. While an objective point of view is important, it's just as important not to back off too far- so far as not to be able to empathise with Raymond's loss or the plight of the Afghan refugees. See, more gray...? Sitting on the fence isn't the same as not judging things in black and white, IMO. I can see how for a marine thinking in shades of gray might be dangerous- the last thing you need in combat is indecision, but fighting in a war is different to starting one. There's no way I'd make it as a marine... I'm a philosopher (I have a piece of paper that says so!), not a soldier... hehe, but we play different roles. Jumping face first into a war, throwing accusations of black-and-white-ness around surely isn't a good idea... when there could be a more gray alternative. 'Think gray'- now that's a really dull slogan.
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Spin on... T-------------------"I think it's time to discuss your philosophy on drug use as it relates to artistic endeavour..."-
It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...
DeletePosted:MusicMinded, we are not in Bangkok we are in Kurat. I wont say what hotel till after we leave in a few weeks. So any hoo...Toneman some scientists feel that the only differance between man and animal is that man uses technology to his advantage complex tools and such. When you look at it though I would much rather be an animal than a human. Look at the life of a dog or cat heck even a gold fish. Do what you want when you want. Eat sleep poop when you want. (unless your a good dog then you poop out side
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) Some animals have it better than alot of humans. If your talking from an animal mind set. I am very much a man.PHL9te, you are absolutly right in saying that grey, indicission, is the worst thing to have in a combat situation. I do however feel that if we all treated life as a war zone 24-7 then things would be alot better. In theory there would be less break-ins less murders, less people jumping on a plane and killing thousands of people. If we all were on guard and all looked out for eachother then things of misfortune would still happen but they would happen alot less.One for all, all for one. (I do like that saying
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)
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) Some animals have it better than alot of humans. If your talking from an animal mind set. I am very much a man.PHL9te, you are absolutly right in saying that grey, indicission, is the worst thing to have in a combat situation. I do however feel that if we all treated life as a war zone 24-7 then things would be alot better. In theory there would be less break-ins less murders, less people jumping on a plane and killing thousands of people. If we all were on guard and all looked out for eachother then things of misfortune would still happen but they would happen alot less.One for all, all for one. (I do like that saying
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Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Think black, then white.This way you can mix your own shade of grey.------------------If you love something, set it on fire.
Jesus helps me trick people.
DeletePosted:I am kinda dissapointed to see that this topic has kinda died off and that only one person has posted since me. Looks like I will have to irk a few people. Maybe not hehe. I would like to point out, Dom, that what I ment when I was talking about people judgeing others was Judge not lest you be judged. I thought of something (while I was sitting on my porciline throne) here is a question that might cause some to stop and think. Actually it is a hypothetical situation...Say that you were an allied fighter pilot, you are sent to destroy a S.A.M. (surface to air misle{dang my spelling sucks}) site. Now you know that there is a 6 year old child tied to the steak next to the SAM if you do not drop your bombs the SAM will not only kill you but have the ability to kill other pilots, however if you do drop the bombs an innocent child will die along with 5 or 6 enimy soldiers. What do you do? Do you save a childs life for a day?(who knows how much longer it will be untill the enimy kills her any way)Or do you drop the bombs saving your life and your fellow pilots killing an innocent kid in the process.I would sacrifce the child and I would expect the child to do the same if the roles were reversed. One life is not too much to ask so that more can live.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Unfortunately I'm not able to reply at the moment, I've been relly quite ill the last few days and my brain hasn't been functioning at all.Raymund, the problem with your hypothetical situation is that as a pacifist I wouldn't be in the situation in the first place. The aim is not to find the 'right' answer to the question, but to prevent the question existing in the first place. This is my aim, and may be a good example of how we're looking at the situation differently.That's all for now.
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Posted:I have to say at the outset, I think September 11th has been done todeath. Most North Americans still seem mesmerized by what happened onthat day. Anyone who tries to talk about how self-centred and hystericalwe've become since then is labelled as being soft on terrorism.But in the past twelve months, more North Americans were murdered bytheir spouses than by terrorists. Food poisoning killed three times asmany of us as terrorists did. Drunk drivers killed more than five timesas many. Ten times as many of us committed suicide as were killed byterrorists. The North American death toll from smoking was 100 times thenumber from terrorism.If the next ten years are like the past ten, you still are more likelyto be struck by lightning than to be killed or injured in a terroristattack. Am I saying that terrorism is okay with me? No. What I'm sayingis that in the sea of human misery, September 11th was little more thana ripple.I want you to hear this. I am not soft on terrorism. I am soft onchildren. Today, around the globe, something like 30,000 of the world'schildren will die of hunger and preventable childhood diseases. In thedays since we watched 3,000 of 'our kind' die in the World Trade Centre,3 million of the world's children starved to death. Beautiful, muchloved little beings that mothers and fathers and sisters will grieve andweep for. CNN didn't film them, but it happened just the same.North American governments are now planning to spend more than twentybillion dollars a year to fight terrorism. Twenty billion dollars a yearjust happens to be the amount the World Health Organization hasestimated it would take to end hunger in the world. It's the amount ofmoney we would need to spend to create a world where no child goes tobed hungry.We've heard a lot of talk since September 11th about how the terroristsare callous and heartless cowards. And here we are, blithely preparingto spend a sum of money so huge that with it we could rid the world ofthe scourge of hunger, and we're not even weighing that possibility.We're so frantic to save our own skins that we don't want to know thatwe ARE making choices.If we continue on our current path, the architect of the 21st Centurywill be fear. We will have allowed a motley collection of thugs, misfitsand bullies to hijack our hopes for the world.I know that it is still within our power to build a future with love andcompassion at the centre. The first step is simple: we must recognizeour panic and calm down.
~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
DeletePosted:I did not write the above, but i fully agree.here is something i did write, i posted it on another message board, in response to someone saying that aid must come with strings attached.Okay.. the US (and canada) already help out developing countries a lot.. that's true, and it's good.But they could do more. We could do more. I could do more. YOU could do more.and the bombs are not helping!So suppose we do send aid. allow me to ask a few questions here, that need to be answered.You say there has to be strings attached? like for example, let us run a pipeline through afghanistan?well, at first that seems to be, a false pretense for helping them in the first place, the oil will bring immense profit to america, more than what would be sent in aid. Is this really an altruistic act? it wouldn't seem so.But then, i can see both sides, of course there should be strings attached, I mean, in a soup kitchen, they have requirements that you come in at least clothed, and not blasted out of your mind on heroin(another key export of afghanistan that the US would like to stop)so then, the question becomes, what strings? an oil pipeline from turkmenistan to the afghan coast? a stable govt? stopping production of opium? disarmament of militant fundamentalist? the taliban ousted, and women rights protected?and then the question is, are any of these things obtainable? somehow i doubt it. If, a pipeline were to be built, they would never be able to defend that entire pipeline from being destroyed. one fundamentalist islamic father who had his son blown up could take a shotgun and shoot a hole in that thing. Take a look at the ecological and financial disaster in Alaska a few months ago for a good example of high pressure oil pipes being shot at by psychos..so, they could bullet proof the pipe I guess.. but, at what cost? and the same question as before, if you have to make it bulletproof, should it be there in the first place? and of course, even making it bullet proof would not stop someone with a rocket launcher or grenade.a stable govt? is that even possible in the region? who knows, we shall see how Hamid Karzai handles this. I hope for the best, but with all that bad blood between the tribes.. i don't think it will be easy.stopping production of opium? this is the only livelihood of some afghan people.. take that away from them, and what do they have left? drug abuse is apparently not a problem in the country, only drug production.. now, to let them keep producing.. that's a dillema in itself, I don't have the answer to.disarm the militant fundamentalists? a good idea, but can you ever find them all? probably not.The taliban ousted and womens rights restored? well, that's effectively already been done. but, the laws on paper are different than real life. I bet the woman being beaten by her husband in afghanistan finds small comfort in the fact that the taliban is no longer in power.so then, after you answer all these questions about strings and what they are tied to, the next question becomes, how do we deliver this aid?it seems to me, that if we set up secure buildings, staffed with UN workers, and guarded by UN soldiers, instead of dropping packages from helicopters, the aid would have a better chance of getting to the right people.in the past, UN workers have been attacked by the taliban, their food stolen. i don't think the taliban has enough strength left to mount any sort of attack now.so in conclusion. it's a tricky situation, with a lot of variables, and a lot of unpredictability.BUTthe way forward is not bombs, it's bread, strings attached or not.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
DeletePosted:cant some nice moderator come and close this now? we're really not getting anywhere with this!
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------------------Live every day as though it is your last, learn every day as though you'll live forever
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------------------Live every day as though it is your last, learn every day as though you'll live forever
Luv peace 'n' chicken grease Al X x
DeletePosted:well.. i beg to disagree. we are educating people who read it.. and hopefully inspiring them even.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
DeletePosted:all i have too say is i'm for the war.osama b. trained most of thoes guys to come and terrorise our country and kill american people!now were gettin him back..and were would we be with out war,the USA. wouldn't even be the USA we would be under rule by the British! And what about the civil war? Did you forget why were a free country and why we have our independence? It makes me mad
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to think about not standing up for what's right for a country's own good.!
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to think about not standing up for what's right for a country's own good.!
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Posted:thanks for your brilliant and eloquent contribution.osama b eh? public enemy number one? guess who trained him? the CIA.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
~whoosh whoosh whoosh~
DeletePosted:Raving Lunitic, your second to last post I liked but that last one (the first part) was rude and just plain wrong. Your sarcasim was not needed. My question to you is, do you feel that the "arcitect" of the 20th was fear? I mean more people were killed in the holocaust and 'Nam. Korea WWII WWI than have probably been killed so far this century. I do not disagree with your number but I would like to know where you got your facts from. Just for my own personal gain. Wait NM you didnt write that so on second thought where did you get that from?Dom, sorry to hear that you were taken ill. Nobody enjoys being sick. (unless your just messed in the head
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) I do like your responce to my hypothetical situation. It was unexpected. I like being suprised. You feel that war is totaly wrong and I feel that war is totaly nessicary. I can respect your opinion and I feel that my views have been changed some on this topic, but can you accept mine? I am in no way doubting that you can I just wanna hear it from the horses mouth.CPG this is a social disscussion area personlly I feel that the intent was to socialize about poi but we are having a social disscussion none the less and that is probably why this topic continues.Raving Lunitic I personally have seen no proof weather or not the CIA trianed him and it makes little differance he has admited to the attacks. In my eyes that makes him guilty. Who cares is alah personally trained him or the CIA.Raymund WOOHOO PAGE 4
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[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 27 January 2002).]
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) I do like your responce to my hypothetical situation. It was unexpected. I like being suprised. You feel that war is totaly wrong and I feel that war is totaly nessicary. I can respect your opinion and I feel that my views have been changed some on this topic, but can you accept mine? I am in no way doubting that you can I just wanna hear it from the horses mouth.CPG this is a social disscussion area personlly I feel that the intent was to socialize about poi but we are having a social disscussion none the less and that is probably why this topic continues.Raving Lunitic I personally have seen no proof weather or not the CIA trianed him and it makes little differance he has admited to the attacks. In my eyes that makes him guilty. Who cares is alah personally trained him or the CIA.Raymund WOOHOO PAGE 4
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[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 27 January 2002).]
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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