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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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beaker
member
Location: Salisbury, wiltshire, UK
Member Since: 19th Aug 2001
Total posts: 54
Posted:Did I say he was in the army?? No. But he does live in kansas in an area mainly populated with whites, and like I said that was their comments made in light of the attacks.

C'mon baby light my fire

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Just a quickie.Raymund, the US never gave them the chance to surrender. The US threatened the Taliban 'Hand over leading Al Quadea members or we'll bomb you'. In accordance with rightful international law the Taliban said 'No, we, like every court in the world, need evidence.' The US refused to make any evidence available and restated their threat.3 times the Taliban did what every country does in this situation, they offered to hand over the accused to a neutral court in a third country. This is standard practice for all countries in the world. America refused every time. To call it an offer or negotiate is a farce.And the Taliban, bastards that they may be, are a legitimate government of a country who had done nothing against the US. Only when they went against the US did they paint them as enemies of the world. Other countries all over the world are run by dictatorial and repressive governments who harbour terrorists. Indeed. a lot of the time the West is more than happy to do business with them.Lets face facts, the US wanted revenge in the form of one man's blood and they put all their efforts in to getting this, ignoring law, international opinion, intelligence and compassion. Now innocents keep on dying and that one man is still free and an even more powerful figure.

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Carrey
member
Location: London, England.
Member Since: 28th Dec 2001
Total posts: 180
Posted:[Dom, we *must* have a conversation about this tomorrow...]Neeko, you have no idea how happy I am to hear that not all of the US are blood thirsty on this issue and that as much propoganda about you is being put out to the rest of the world as about Osama and his boys. I consider myself wholey guilty of buying the bullshit as well. Of course you don't *all* agree with the war - and what a heartening thought indeed.Maybe we're all guilty of swallowing the media pill from time to time - and I'm glad to have my eyes a bit wider open...and my foundations shaken - I've been anti-American for far too long...I would like to quote a little line from a great Dandy Warhols song:And I thank My lucky starsWish I mayI wish that I mightJust keep an open mindAll of the timeAt least we're all thinking about it - someday we might even work it out...

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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:I wrote a long reply an hour ago but lost it, damm.Yes War is bad. We all posting to this board agree. The problem is that our opposition is dedicated to killing us and our way of life, are they going to sit down and discuss peaceful ways of figuring this out? A couple of quick facts for everyone:The US trained the Mujahhedin to fight against the USSR many years ago. This is NOT the Taliban. The Taliban was created with the express help of Pakistan, the US was not a party to it. The US has never recognized the Taliban, there was a legit govt in exile. Does anyone need more information as to what these words mean?The guy who wrote "I understand that every one is up in arms about September 11th. It sucks that a few thousand people had to die, but you know what? We had it coming. The US sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong far to much. "I would like to ask you quickly leave the country, go somewhere else. Id like to beat you, not because I think it would help anything, just cause id feel better. You are a moron, whatever we have done as a country does not in any way justify the "just a few thousand" people that died. We are not wholesale carpet bombing anything. Strikes are aimed at enemy targets. Bombs miss, this is war, not an exact science. Thats all I can type again. Code128

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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Code128 - SickpuPpy was a little extreme, but sometimes you have to say things hard to make an impact.The Taliban were recognised by the some, although they always had sanctions against them and no-one liked the fact they were in power. However apparently several US companies had a few years ago entered into talks with them about oil pipeline rights.Some of the Mujahhedin joined the Taliban, some the Northern Alliance, and some Al Quaeda."just a few thousand" innocent Afghans have died as well. There is no such thing as precision bombing. The majority of bombs miss, hit non-military targets, or kill innocent bystanders. Most of the bombs dropped in Afghanistan have been 'dumb' bombs, like cluster bombs, daisy cutters or whatever. These are large area, large scale bombs that don't care if they kill an armed murderer or a child. I can't find the link at the moment but a US academic put together a report in December about the number of Afghans killed, and it came to several thousand. There are whole villages wiped out. I saw one guy on the news who'd been away from his village and returned to find it gone, and 27 of his close family dead.Now, think to yourself "several thousand US Citizens murdered". You feel angry right? Sick? Shocked? You want revenge?Now think to yourself "several thousand Afghans murdered". I'll bet many people in the West don't feel as shocked or angry. I'll bet many can 'justify' their deaths, just as some can 'justify' the WTC attack. However all these dead in this war is nothing compared to the tens of thousands who die every day due to hunger, insanitary conditions and lack of access to even rudimentary medical treatment. Think, the money for the bombs wasted in Afghanistan could save so many lives that never even have the chance!We're luckily enough to be alive to have this discussion, let alone live in free countries and have computers. If you want to feel great today give money to charity so that people around the world can have a chance. Unicef and Save the Children being my favourite choices.

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:*nods his head*------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Sundevil
member
Location: palatine, IL, USA
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 8
Posted:I believe that killing of any kind is wrong, even revenge. I do not know the Taliban's view on the war but I cannot believe any human being would bomb the WTC for the hell of it. There is a problem out there and killing the Taliban will only postpone it untill some other middle eastern group takes up the flag of war. Judge not lest ye be judged, I remember a war a little ways back that reminds me a whole lot of this one, The Crusades was a brutal war that had cristians fighting for their religious homeland, whoever died in that war was promised by the Pope to have a free pass to heaven. Sound sickeningly familiar? even worse is when you find out how long the crusades lasted. It is sad sometimes how we make history repeat itself; as it will keep doing untill we All learn that violence is wrongSundevil

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Your Taliban friends killed wait ASSASINATED one of their own country men to protect an internaional terrorist. Also America never reconised the Taliban as a formal goverenment there fore we do not need to give them jack. Comprende Amigo? Code 128 is right innocent die every day but unfortunaly it does happen. Bombs are aimed at stratigec targets ONLY but they do go off course it is not the fault of the piolet and they do generally feel bad about killing little kids. I know because I have seen my O's come back before upset as hell. Is America to blame for those who die of hunger every day? HELL NO! Do we send aid to those countries? HELL YES WE DO! But you just go ahead and keep on blaming my country for all the worlds problems. You are just as bad as the Al Kida and the Taliban and you have no bearing on anything in life. Sundevil is very accute perhaps we have let history repet its self but to my recolection we are not out to kill Muslims. I train to kill but I honestly have no desire in my heart to kill a human being. It saddens me to think that the world views us as blood thirsty vengfull psycopaths with a nuke.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 16 January 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Carrey
member
Location: London, England.
Member Since: 28th Dec 2001
Total posts: 180
Posted:Wow Raymundo, temper, temper...I was so relieved to hear:"...they do generally feel bad about killing little kids..."I generally "feel bad" about walking away from a cashier when the he/she has just given me more change than I was supposed to get. I wonder how I would feel if I killed an innocent child[This message has been edited by Carrey (edited 16 January 2002).]

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Raymund, it'd be interesting to know who exactly you're shouting at.Note, I use the world 'West' a lot as the US is only one culprit of many. I'm not just critiquing the US, and I am not 'anti-American'. Nor am I chummy with any of the Taliban
Non-Https Image Link
Yes, America is to blame for some of those thousands who die around the world every day. The West sends aid, but not enough is done. The West (and the US is really, really bad at this) puts sanctions and trade restrictions on countries that do not do as the US wishes. This includes poor countries who legally have the right to produce medicines cheaply, but are forced to purchase them full price from western countries. Western companies are not forced to ensure fair conditions for their foreign workers, so the high profit for a supplier encourages awful working conditions, slavery and child workers. The West demands high repayments for loans greedily given out, and although a lot of these have been cut it's still small change to a western country, but life and death to a developing nation. The list of crimes goes on. Every country in the world is guilty, but in the west our endless desire for more of everything helps drive the rest of the world into the dust.The US has trained and sponsored terrorists for it's own gain. It's supported governments with appalling human rights records, military dictatorships, etc... Here's some reading, primarily from The Guardian, as it's a good an accurate source of info, about how the US happily helps murder in South America: School of the Americas Selective justice. Also a good article by respected journalist John Pilger about how the US is using the 'war' to control global policies.If the bombs are so accurate and targets are so well thought out how come the targets hit so far include: Northern Alliance leaders, food ware houses, residential houses, anti-mining agencies and US troops? During the Iraq war a big thing was made of smart bombs, but it later turned out that most had missed their mark.A lot of the world views the US as "blood thirsty vengeful psychopaths with a nuke" because that's how they're coming across. A lot of people in the US did immediately say "Lets nuke Afghanistan." Basically the US overrode international opinion, law and common sense to get revenge. That's a good display of a sharp temper, just like yours, which doesn't really help.Another point. Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi and Jesus would all stand before you today and tell you to always try the peaceful path. History has judged these men to be great for just this kind of view. How will it judge our leaders of today and us if we be silent let war happen in our name? 7.5 million Afghanis facing starvation. Tell me how anything can justify that?Sorry, another long one (but short for me!).


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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Dom, I like you more and more each time you post.
Non-Https Image Link
Just one thing I'd like to mention, the US also bombed a hospital(can't find the link right now) and http://www.msnbc.com/news/676390.asp?pne=msn
62 people, they thought were taliban leaders.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~


~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:To be perfectly honest I am not shouting at anybody I am voicing my beliefs just as you and everybody else has on this post. If I am being louder than everybody else then ohh well shame on me!I see alot of people bash the US and say we are no good. Then I challenge you to come here and make us better if you think you're so damn high and mighty. Dom need I remind you of your own governments past how they treated the Scots and the Welsh not to mention the Irish. Because you refuse to give them the freedome that they want your busses and subways have become death traps.A training camp in Georgia my word you sound like one of those grocery store tabloids!! Ft Benning Georgia is a terroist front my word man do you honestly believe everything you read. Hey I got some beach from property in Arizona you interested? I think that this guy in South America is pulling your chain. I wish you would think alittle about what this man is saying. He is basicly and I am bing liberal here calling American forces Nazis in a sence. We support. Gimme a little while and I'll try to find something that says that your Queen sponserd a raid in a Las Vegas casino killing 20,000 spectators. Or maybe she gave Timothy McVey the idea to blow up a building killing innocent Americans!!! I never said our bombs were accruate to the T in fact I said the opposite. I even noted our pilots faces when they had returned from a strike when a bomb when off course.Nothing on this earth can justify a starving child no matter what nationality.Dr. King and Gandi I can see speaking of peace. Hear me now next time my Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ comes back it will most definatly not be "I come in peace." God is vengfull if you want proof of this then read the book of Revilation and think a little on what you just said Dom. Yes love thy neighbor as thy self. And turn the other cheek. Those were preached and I do believe in them but to say that Jesus is with out a sence of vengence and spite for all things evil is just plain.. well dumb.I am currently looking for a post of an article that a Canadian reporter once said. I will be back with it soon.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:And, to add a little more fuel to the fire:here is the video tape that supposedely proves bin laden guilty, (excerpts from it):http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/here is something from a foreign site, condeming the video:http://www.fwaed.net/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=98473A story in about the US bombing a village.http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=108209a link to a site that shows that AGM114 missiles are not dropped from planes, but fired from helicopters. some would say this disproves the article, i disagree.http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/agm-114.htmthoughts anyone?------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~[This message has been edited by RavingLunatic (edited 16 January 2002).]

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Briefly, as the company I work at just laid off 25 people, most friends, so I'm off to the pub in a bit...Once again, I've repeatedly said that other countries are involved in this. And that other countries can be just as bad and also have a bad past. The US is the biggest tho. I'm looking at the present at the moment, not 100/200 years ago. If so I'd start the US crime list with the American Indians.You have very stong opinions, as do I, and you're very patriotic, in a way that's all good stuff. Personally I think that it can also close your mind a bit. The US has been involved in supporting South American human rights abuses and supporting corrupt regimes. Do some research yourself if you don't trust my sources (which are all UK 'official' press reporters for major papers).The UK issue. A lot of people don't agree with the Northern Ireland issue, but it's absolutely huge and can't easily be solved. A very few people think murder can help solve it. The UK tried using the military to solve the problem, it might not have been bombing but it was internment, endless army presence, etc... Guess what, it didn't work! We learn't the hard way that oppression furthers violence. Unfortunately it seems the US will also learn this the same, hard way.I've never claimed to be high and mighty. I just try to be calm, reasonable, logical and empathic with all sides and try to get people to see all sides of the story before making a judgement. I don't think that's ever going to happen with you, so this argument should probably end here. Agreeing to disagree.Dom out...

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Oh, the video. A lot of people who met Osama said it was him. I'm going with the fact it was.However I think he's lying through most of it. Exactly as when a bomb goes off somewhere suddenly 5 groups claim responsibility, he's now gaining power by claiming it was his idea. Initially after the attacks he denied responsibility, even though he said he was happy with them, and he'd claimed responsibility for attacks before without hesitation. So I'm still not convinced that he knew the details of the attacks. One of his groups may have funded it, but I doubt he planned it. He is a venture capatilist of terror, spreading the evil vibes and funding terror, but not really taking part in it.

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Well, I don't know whether he did it or not..in a sea of information and misinformation, it's all you can do to make educated guesses..------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Here is something interesting someone just sent me..>Subj: Enron-gate, and worse >Date: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:04:56 PM > >Please distribute this to everyone you know. It was written by William Pitt, a teacher in Boston (www.willpitt.com) and it describes two scandals which have the potential to uproot a certain noxious Bush now occupying the Oval Office. > >HELL TO PAY > >"Depend upon it, Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." - Samuel Johnson > >Some time just before January 7th, 2002, an asteroid capable of pulverizing a good-sized nation flashed through the void, passing perilously close to Earth. Had it struck our planet, the impact would have had global consequences. The energy of the strike would have been equivalent to the explosion of a number of large atomic weapons. From the media perspective, it would have been the biggest story since the extinction of the dinosaurs. > >At some point in the next six months, a small, darkened corner of George W. Bush's consciousness will wish the thing had hit us. The apocalypse he and his fundamentalist buddies have been waiting for would have been at hand, and a number of potentially calamitous questions about to be put to his administration would have been avoided. > >Sadly for him, the planet spins on. Beneath the unpierced stratosphere, the electronic beams of news agencies like CNN and the Associated Press have begun to spread like a widow's web from city to city and house to house. Carried on this invisible wind are rumors of doom, negligence and greed. Each and every one of these rumors lead inexorably back to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, which will soon be issuing significant numbers of visitor passes to lawyers if the pattern holds much longer. > >Whichever part of the nation that never heard of the energy giant Enron Corporation has recently been introduced to the company in odious context. The story thus far is nothing less than astounding: Enron, a company valued in the billions on Wall Street, suddenly filed for the largest bankruptcy claim in the history of the known universe. 4,000 employees were abruptly shown the door after having been barred from dumping the company stock, meant to fund their retirement, while it was worth something. Meanwhile, Enron >executives in the know were able to dump the stock, back when it was the gold standard on the Street, for a cool $1 billion. > >Apparently, Enron was ailing for quite a long time. The aforementioned executives were able to maintain the mirage of financial viability by >stuffing the debt into what are called 'off-balance-sheet partnerships.' In essence, each of the executives built personal banking bunkers and hid what has been revealed to be staggering Enron debts within them, keeping fact that the company was hemorrhaging money off the publicly displayed balance sheets. This maintained the company's credit rating, and allowed it to continue doing business. > >This went on for four years, which means several things. It means most of the Enron executives were aware of and/or actively participating in this highly criminal and irresponsible activity. It means the stockholders, including 4,000 loyal Enron employees, were lied to. It probably means that the executives knew the stock value was doomed when they bailed out and cashed in several months ago. It means they let their employees lose the retirement funds they believed were growing within their Enron stock portfolios. It means a lot of people got screwed by a pack of sharp operators who didn't give a damn about anyone but themselves. > >All this could simply be chalked up as yet another story of corporate greed run amok, until the umbilical political and financial connections between Bush and Enron are illuminated. Enron's capo, Kenneth Lay, was perhaps the best financial friend George W. Bush has ever known. Lay and a number of Enron employees essentially bankrolled Bush's 2000 Presidential campaign, going so far as to lend Bush an Enron corporate jet for trips between whistle stops. Before Bush got White House stars in his eyes, he worked very closely with Enron on energy policy in Texas. > >This close connection led to the Bush administration's hiring of a number of influential individuals within Enron's orbit for important government positions: > >- Thomas E. White, Bush's Secretary of the Army, was once Vice-Chairman of Enron Energy Service, and held millions in Enron >stock; > >- Presidential Advisor Karl Rove owned as much as $250,000 in Enron stock; > >- Economic adviser Larry Lindsay leapt straight from Enron to his current White House job; > >- Federal Trade Representative Robert B. Zoellick did the same; > >- SEC Chairman Harvey Pitts was hand-picked by Kenneth Lay for the position, due to his notorious aversion to governmental regulation of any kind. > >There are some thirty one Bush administration officials who had a line item for Enron in their stock portfolio, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. It is fair to say that the woebegone corporation held, and continues to hold, enormous influence over the day-to-day machinations of Federal government policy. One wonders if Bush's recent gutting of the Clean Air Act, a decision designed to improve the fortunes of companies like Enron, was the brainchild of people with deep connections to the energy industry. > >The trail of influence left by Enron leads also to the scabrous heart >ventricles of Vice President Dick Cheney, who admitted recently to six separate meetings with Enron executives while formulating the Bush >administration's energy policy. Cheney, a former executive of the Halliburton Petroleum interest, was in charge of creating this policy. For reasons soon to be exposed by subpoena, Cheney refused to detail the specifics of the creation of this policy, which included the multiple Enron meetings. > >The General Accounting Office was preparing to sue Cheney to reveal this information when the September 11th attacks took place. Those subpoenas may be dusted off and mailed within a month. In the meantime, the Justice Department is preparing a serious criminal investigation into the collapse of Enron. The democratically-controlled Senate is planning hearings on the matter as well. Columnist Robert Scheer has referred to the Bush administration's involvement in the Enron debacle as "Whitewater in spades." One wonders if "Watergate" would be a more appropriate comparison. > >Bush's own dealings within the energy industry carry a disturbingly familiar echo to the Enron situation: once upon a time, he was a high-ranking officer of a petroleum interest called Harken Oil. On June 22, 1990, Bush sold his Harken stock and made $848,560, earning him a 200% profit. One week later, Harken announced a $23.2 million loss in quarterly earnings and its stock dropped sharply, losing 60 percent of its value over the next six months. Bush made a bundle while the other investors lost millions. Harken was Enron in miniature, and might have served as a warning to the American people if the press had chosen to pay any attention to it during the 2000 Presidential campaign. > >There is a school of thought, espoused primarily by Republicans, that any investigation into potentially dishonorable or illegal actions by the Bush administration is tantamount to treason. We are at war, undeclared though it may be, and Bush must be free to prosecute this war vigorously, so as to defend our freedom and bring the murderers of American civilians to justice. If reports recently aired on CNN have any credence, however, Bush and his people may well have to answer for actions that make the Enron catastrophe look like a jaywalking offense, actions that led directly to the incredible carnage in New York and Washington, D.C. > >In 1998, during the Clinton administration, the U.S.-based energy concern Unocal canceled plans to exploit massive natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan. They had planned to run a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan, where the natural gas could have been processed for Asian and Western energy markets. The idea was scuttled after Clinton ordered the cruise missile bombing of Afghanistan in response to a terrorist attack upon U.S. embassies in Africa which were planned and executed by Osama bin Laden. The pipeline would have had to pass through Afghanistan, and Unocal was given the message in Technicolor by Clinton's people that Taliban-controlled Afghanistan was not to be given any sort of financial boon. > >Apparently, the Bush administration found no moral dilemma in dealing with the Taliban to get to the gas. Immediately upon their arrival in Washington, a vigorous courtship of the Taliban was undertaken by Bush's people. In fact, if former U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler is to be believed, the Bush administration had a vested interest in strengthening and stabilizing the Taliban regime, because a stable regime would compel investors to revive the Turkmenistan natural gas pipeline deal.. The Taliban, demon of the moment, was the Bush administration's idea of a 'stable' government. Stable enough, >anyway, to see the pipeline through. > >The connections between Bush and the Taliban became so close that the Taliban went so far as to hire an expert on U.S. public relations named Laila Helms, so as to smooth the way between the two regimes. Meetings between the two nations continued at a high level, the last of which occurred in August, scant weeks before the September 11th attacks. All of these actions were taken to exploit the vast energy reserves in Turkmenistan for the benefit of American energy corporations. > >The cozy relationship between Bush and the Taliban frustrated the >investigative efforts of former Deputy Director of the FBI John O'Neill. >O'Neill was the FBI's chief bin Laden hunter, in charge of the investigations into the bin Laden-connected bombings of the World Trade Center in 1993, the destruction of an American troop barracks in Saudi Arabia in 1996, the African embassy bombings in 1998, and the attack upon the U.S.S. Cole in 2000. > >O'Neill quit the FBI in protest two weeks before the destruction of the World Trade Center towers. He did so because his investigation was hindered by the Bush administration's connections to the Taliban, and by the interests of American petroleum companies. O'Neill was quoted as stating, "The main obstacles to investigating Islamic terrorism were U.S. oil corporate interests, and the role played by Saudi Arabia in it." After leaving the FBI, O'Neill took a position as head of security for the World Trade Center. He died on September 11th, 2001, trying to save people trapped by the attack, when the towers came down on top of him. The irony in this, simply, is horrifying. > >In essence, the Federal agent who knew more about bin Laden than any living American was kept from investigating terrorist threats against this country. He was hindered because the Bush administration was desperate to cultivate the favor of the Taliban, who held terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden in great esteem, so as to gain access to lucrative natural gas deposits in Turkmenistan. > >If these allegations prove true, Bush and his friends allowed this affinity to hamstring investigations that could have thwarted bin Laden's September plans. If these allegations prove true, everything since September 11th has been a massive cover-up operation in which American soldiers and thousands of Afghan civilians have died. If these allegations prove true, the Bush administration has the blood of thousands of American civilians on its hands. > >If these allegations carry even the faintest whiff of credibility, George W. Bush and members of his administration stand in taint of high treason and murder. > >On November 7th, 2000, a clear majority of Americans came to the conclusion that George W. Bush was unfit to govern this nation. For a variety of dark and controversial reasons, that conclusion was thrown over. Sometime soon, if the media's electronic web continues to carry these sordid stories of corruption, greed and death, the American people will come to fully understand the consequences of that failed election. > >It is one thing to coddle and court a corrupt energy company for political and financial gain. It is quite another to coddle and court a murderous terrorist-supporting regime, hindering anti-terrorism investigations in the process, for the purpose of exploiting valuable natural resources. The former cost a number of people their retirement funds. The latter has cost thousands of people their lives. One is criminal. The other is abominable. George W. Bush is deeply implicated in both. There will be hell to pay. > > ------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Sundevil
member
Location: palatine, IL, USA
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 8
Posted:As long as we're on the conspiracy topic...I had heard that Bin Laden made a killing in the stock market after the bombing by buying stock on puts and calls. I'm not an expert on the stock market but what this lets you do is buy a stock and gamble that the stock is going to crash. It lets you sell the stock at the same price you bought it for no matter if the stock rises or falls. So you buy a stock at $200 a share and it goes down to $30 you can still sell it for $200.I don't know exact numbers on how much he made but I know that ever since the stock market crash in the 20's our government is supposed to keep a close eye on the market to make sure we don't go through another depression. So how is it we didn't notice massive buying of "special" stocks? Is it like Bush said after the bombing, that the Clinton admin. cut too much funding from the CIA? Sounds like too easy of an excuse to me.Sundevil-hopes he doesn't turn up with anthrax after writing this

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:I certainly wouldn't doubt it.here is another interesting story..http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-000003207jan13.story------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:There were reports of people making huge profits from Sept 11, and a lot of these were respectable companies. It seems while everyone else was trying to count bodies, some true blue capitalists were thinking of the money to be made. So far I've seen no reports that any of these profits were directly linked to anyone.What you describe is a cool thing called Short-selling. Basically, what everyone understands as the normal way of trading is to gamble on stock prices rising. So you buy stock at a low price, wait for it to rise, then sell to collect your profit. Simple. Short-selling is based upon the same principle (buy low, sell high) but the opposite way around. When you gamble that a stock price will fall, you sell it before you have bought any (this usually requires a margin/credit from your brokerage), wait for the price to fall, and then buy to cover your due margin/credit.Odd idea, I know, but in a recession it's a great way to make money!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I find it interesting to see how this topic has moved along. It went form America is the root of all evil to America is training terorists in Georgia, to George Bush went to see the Taliban over oil, to George bush is capitalizing on the stock market. Apperently some of you have very deep issues and like to point the blame at one of the biggest fish in the pond. Find out for me would you how much food Russia has given Afgainistan? Or how the Peoples Republic of China has compinsated the Korians for their losses? America causes damage and our bombs do fall short of their targest sometimes, but there has not been a war since WWII that we have not sent aid to a country during and after our conflict within that country. Some of you out there would give us crap weather or not we did anything. Aesop once wrote a parable in which the moral of it was that you can make some people happy some of the time but you can not make all the people happy all of the time. I say again (at least I think its again) yall bitch way to much.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:This is a post that I saw from another board read it if you would please.This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.America: The Good Neighbor.Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is ****ed tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."Stand proud, America!Wear it proudly!!This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Jesus! I'm wasting my time here because I don't think anything gets through to you Raymund! I also have the worrying feeling that you're one of those people who also believe in the freedom to carry arms, but that's a whole other topic! I'm also beginning to doubt you are who you say you are. Regardless...Lets clarify this again: I am not involved in a worldwide plot against America. I do not hate America. I do not think America never does any good. I do not think America is the root of all evil. America does a lot to protect it's economic and state security around the world, to that end it does a lot of good, and a lot of evil. It's a coin, 2 sides. I'm trying to look at both. However I do believe that just because I give money to charity one day doesn't mean I can go rob someone's house the next day.No matter where you live, or what you believe, you should always question everything and you believe that you and your country can always do better. I think it's more patriotic to question your leaders than blindly except everything they say as the truth. A lot of these reports mentioned are written by Americans and appear in US press. Are they part of some anti-US conspiracy too?You want be to slag off other countries like the UK, easy! But not on topic. This topic was about the current 'war' (but apparently the US has now decided it isn't a real war) and as the war is basically completely US centric the discussion turned into a wider questioning of US policy.Your quote "I find it interesting to see how this topic has moved along. It went form America is the root of all evil to America is training terrorists in Georgia, to George Bush went to see the Taliban over oil, to George bush is capitalizing on the stock market."Never did anyone say America is the root of all evil, or George Bush talked to the Taliban about oil (he has other people to do that), or that bush is capitalising on the stock market? This proves that you're not taking anything in or able to accept opinions and thoughts foreign to your mindset. Therefore I really am wasting my time, however it's actually been fun
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Cheerio old bean, I'm off for elevensies!!


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Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:Raymond; you obviously harbour a great deal of anger, which is understandable considering you lost people on Sept 11th.it is obvious how much pain you are in, and are not dealing with. if you stay with the negativity you will never find resolution and live a peaceful and happy life.open your mind and your heart will follow.love, peace and light to you brother.

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Firefairy
member
Location: UK
Member Since: 12th Oct 2001
Total posts: 115
Posted:Raymond; you obviously harbour a great deal of anger, which is understandable considering you lost people on Sept 11th.it is obvious how much pain you are in, and are not dealing with. if you stay with the negativity you will never find resolution and live a peaceful and happy life.open your mind and your heart will follow.love, peace and light to you brother.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Faeries are great! Gotta love 'em!

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Carrey
member
Location: London, England.
Member Since: 28th Dec 2001
Total posts: 180
Posted:Hobbits are good too!
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C


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Wren
member
Location: Mt. Horeb, Wi, USA
Member Since: 28th Oct 2001
Total posts: 33
Posted:I'm just going to point out one thing, because (as Dom said) its obvious that Raymund isn't going to consider anything I have to say.That article from Canada was written quite a while ago. I don't know the exact date, but I would have to say roughly about 25 years. A lot has changed since then. For example: After the rise of the military-industrial (Oedipus
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) complex, the US government became much more influenced by corporations and industries. That's not to say they weren't earlier, but it has gotten to a very sick point now.-------------------Wren"Well, what d'ya think we should do?" "Hrm, well, I could throw the babies out of the tower and you could catch them in a basin..." "A basin?!?" "Yes, a basin." "Well, that might just work..."


-WrenAnd that, my friends, is condensed evil.

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:hmm.. 25 years ago? you sure about that?I know it's old, certainly older than this war in afghanistan, but I don't know about 25 years..I have read it before too.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Wren
member
Location: Mt. Horeb, Wi, USA
Member Since: 28th Oct 2001
Total posts: 33
Posted:Well, since I decided I didn't want to study any more Spanish, I did a little research. My sources (I don't remember the sites, sorry) say:"From: "LET'S BE PERSONAL" Broadcast June 5, 1973 CFRB, Toronto, Ontario"So that's what, 28.5 years? (Please don't make fun of me for my inability to count time if this number is incorrect
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)-------------------Wren"Well, what d'ya think we should do?" "Hrm, well, I could throw the babies out of the tower and you could catch them in a basin..." "A basin?!?" "Yes, a basin." "Well, that might just work..."


-WrenAnd that, my friends, is condensed evil.

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