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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Hey Raymond,Long time no talk
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I was going to leap in there with an "well I don't like just hanging out with my own kind", but then I sat and thought about your point for a time. It is true, I do like hanging out with my own kind, it is just my definition of my kind tends to be fairly broad, not based on skin colour, gender, gender preference etc. Those who are not my kind are individuals who I assume are dangerous, and I avoid them. So I never get to know whether they are what I think they are. The whole "own kind" thing is a very real but very artificial construct. Sometimes it is useful, it keeps me from talking to weird psycho persons with knives at train stations. But it also keeps me from talking to people who may just appear that way (hopefully minus the knife).I am going to put forward something here, prejudice does have a purpose. It is usually based in a desire to protect ourselves from potentially dangerous and different others. The important thing is to look beyond the stereotype to see whether the individual actually is as dangerous as we have assumed.And now back to the war....R.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Rozi, that is an excellent point but lets not just limit "own kind" to race and sex. Take it a step further, when I was growing up I was in band (yes I was one of THOSE) I had the tendency to hang out with other ppls in the band. My friends were those people that had common intrests. My closer friends were into computers and my best friends were into both. Now I did have the few friends that were not into either and those for some reason were some of the closest friends that I ever had. I must say though that the majority of of us keep to our own kind but we all have friends that are the exception.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:
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*now having interesting vision of Raymond as poi/glowstick wielding muso in uniform with penchant for computers*I am very interested to know whether any of you guys believe in a concept of absolute truth? (You know, the cold hard facts bit.) How tolerant do you think you are of the idea that another persons perspective is the truth for them? And how does that impact upon how you see this situation?R.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:what you mean like what I see as blue is what you see as brown but you call it blue just beause your teacher in kindergargen told you it was blue?The only thing in this world that is absolute is the truth. "I am the way the TRUTH and the light" ~Jesus Christ~ The truth does not vary person to person it is absolute. "*now having interesting vision of Raymond as poi/glowstick wielding muso in uniform with penchant for computers*" Hmm... should I be scared or should my ego be on the rise after that remark?
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You forgot to mention medieval armourer and warrior. Man I love the SCA!!On a different note, I have been looking a speaches that Americans have done there are a few I like and some that I dont, this is where I have found most of em...http://douglass.speech.nwu.edu/There are alot of good speaches unfortunatly my attention span is... any how what was I saying. [image]http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif">------------------[/image] By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I had a quick look at it. I am sometimes envious of the oral history that the U.S.A. has, it seems that in Oz-land you need to have connections with political parties to be aware of/interested in this sort of thing.I do actually believe, to a certain extent, that there is no absolute truth. Or at the very least we "misname" as truth or fact, many things that are not. I can't quote the facts or figures like you guys, right now, but so much of what you have been talking about is a mixture of truth and perception. So someone will act on their interpretation of a situation, and someone will react on their interpretation of that persons action. For example, the world trade centre was bombed (fact), the U.S. acts on their interpretation of the situation as being the fault of a particular group being aided by a particular country, & attacks Afghanistan, others interpret this as unwarranted & overly aggressive.I am reading back over this and realising how softly I am speaking about something I have no right to be so dis-passionate about. & I also know that many would say, "what is the point of what you are saying? You are just trying to be nice to everyone". I am taking this role fairly naturally at the moment, as a fairly politically jaded individual in my home country. I am tired of people shouting & being so damn certain that they are right without any self-reflection on their motivations. Such certainty scares the shit out of me.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Rozi, somethings you just have got to be certain of. The truth is always the truth. It can not change. If someone calles a lie the truth it is still a lie because it is not the truth.I have nothing to debate on your post so I will wait untill someone else posts somehting on this topic to unleashe the flying fingers that I posess.
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Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:I'll bite:Raymond you suggested that 6th grade girls and boys keep to their own at a dance. Fair enough - but they don't then go on to (generally) kill each other because they're different to each other (as opposing sides in a war would). They're in the same class (read county/planet) and tolerate difference - not attack difference.I love diversity, and don't for a moment want everyone to think the same.Have fun, I'm goin' fishin'Ade

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ya and I'll bet you will only catch the small mouth bass. What you got a problem with large mouth. Hmph predgudise fisher.
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None the less your pretty much right them 6 th graders my not have grown out of their cooties but you are wrong in saying that they do not attack difference. If they tolerated it then we would see the problem with playground bullies. If the youth of the world really tolerated difference then wars would have ended long ago and I would be out of a job! Actually that would be a good thing, but it just aint so.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I just have one little thingy to add and its a question to RavingLunatic. Dude do you even keep you with your topic or have you grown bored with Dom's and I's endless rambleings?------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well gee this topic was fun too but I guess the masses have spoken, time to close the anti war topic. I give it a year and it will be reopend.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Yes i do keep up with the topic, and I am reading..there is nothing here i haven't seen before. I continue to watch the news, write my own essays attend peace meetings and wait for something interesting to say, that might actually enlighten someone.I'm a little to busy to debate every little point here.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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RavingLunatic
member

Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Here, I will post something that a friend of mine wrote, just to keep this place fired up. I think it is very well written.A Communication from Progressive Free ThinkersJanuary 9th, 2002egoldstein@lobbyist.com Whether or not the events of 9.11 could have been foreseen is a moot point. From the somewhat detached viewpoint of the Canadian citizen it is easy to speculate on the philosophical significance and repercussions of American foreign policy.Canada plays a unique role in the way the world is shaping up to be - close enough to ground zero to shudder in selfish relief, but far enough away to not have us frothing at the mouth in fear and rage. Because we werent attacked, we have more of an opportunity to see things objectively. This is a good thing, however, it has lead to the accusation that Canadians are fence-sitters. And for good reason.To act in ignorance is to potentially agitate what is already a festering wound. These terrorist attacks have been expected for some time by many people who are sensitive to alternative perspectives. From our cooshy arm chairs and big screen TVs playing CNN it is sometimes not as easy to see how American foreign policy could be itself construed as one continuous terrorist campaign. Even the feared and loathed Osama bin Laden is but a Frankensteins monster, remnants of other bitter cold war.Americas been at war with various enemies for decades, and yet everyone seemed so shocked that an event of this magnatude should occur on American soil. And people call it unthinkable. Clearly, its not "unthinkable" because there have been at least several people thinking about it for some time. And, had people actually bin Listening, would have heard the tormented cries of the innocents who suffer and only know that the name of their tormentor is AMERICA.For many years now I have found a common sentiment among people I have talked with about this: that America likes to police the world.. but they police the world based on what they think is best for themselves. This kind of self-servience ends up being more expensive in the end, like healthcare which puts no value whatsoever on preventative medicine. Fewer initial expenses translates into extra revenue to wallow in, and when the curve catches up everyone can stand around looking aghast and pointing fingers at eachother.So now an anti-American sentiment in the Middle East has crystallized into a group of people who, through the use of selective thinking, have come to conclude that America is the antagonist in their prophesied Jihad. We call them psychos, but that is not how they see themselves. They see themselves basically as warriors who are to save the world from evil.This is where it gets tricky.America, a nation which loves to be portrayed as Gods promised land, has entered into a Jihad with Islamic fundamentalists. Of course, America - just like these Islamic Fundies - sees themselves as the good guys.Two opposed sides, and both fighting for righteousness?One side is clearly mistaken. But before we jump to any conclusions, consider them in relation to eachother. The American military has easily killed as many innocent people in other countries as there were Americans lost on 9-11.True, the catalyst of the new age took place on American soil. True, this was perhaps a declaration of war. But in response, America did something unprecedented in the history of our Earth:America declared World-wide Civil War.One has to consider this concept alone before it can be fit into the context of our own situation. Its not something that there has been any study on because its never happened before; but "Global Civil War" is a fitting label for what we are entering into.George W. Bush has built a moral loophole in which any government can eliminate any opposition with two simple words: TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. This is why there was demands for a "sunset clause" in the incredibly anti-civil rights legislation that has rifled through many countries at record speed, our own nation included. With pinpoint precision our governments have been able to extract our most fundamental rights - if they so desire - by acting on the pretense that we might be terrorists.They can throw you in jail because you might be a terrorist. They can tap your phone and listen to whatever they want, because you might be a terrorist. They can intercept your lettermail, email, follow your credit card transactions and otherwise spy on you however possible because you might be a terrorist. After all, what do you have to hide? Why are you hiding it? Are you planning something? What are you doing/saying/thinking that you dont want us to know about? Privacy? But, you could be a terrorist planning an attack - a terrorist would decry his rights to privacy if he found out he was being watched.Whats in your bag? Whats in your shoes? Could you please bend over? Youll have to leave that wallet chain with us, it could be used as a weapon. Poppies werent even allowed on people entering planes around Remembrance Day because we are at war with terrorism. How ironic.Ironic because those poppies are to symbolize that we remember the horrors of war, and honour those who died before us. Ironic because poppies are pretty much the only thing growing in Afghanistan right now, besides American ego.It wont be long now before the Liberals introduce their federal box cutter registry. Here is the simple truth: LIFE IS FRAGILE. Terrorists in Jerusalem have known how easy it is to destroy the bodies of a whole bunch of humans at once for quite some time. This is why mobilizing against it in a military sense is counter-productive - our instincts towards self-preservation so often endanger our continued existence, and this is one such occasion.Jerusalems got the best anti-terrorism units in the world, and what has it gotten them? Every day, another suicide bomber. That whole situation has a much longer story to it than any American conquest, but is relative nonetheless because because it demonstrates the cat and mouse games which ensue when you polarize ideologies.This war fails at the conceptual level, because it is an invisible enemy that really cant be bombed into submission because it is mobile. There isnt a certain dictator to overthrow; even the US acknowledges that when (they ever) catch Osama the "war on terrorism" will go on.Speculation (since the beginning) has centered on Iraq, for most of us watched that last war on prime time television. Iraq has always been defiant - they even wouldnt let some of the UN weapons inspectors enter to inspect some of their BCNW (biological, chemical, nuclear warfare) labs. Which logically means they still have those weapons capabilities. Nobodys going to hand over all their weapons when they still feel threatened. Iraq took a whooping back in Desert Storm, and there can be little doubt as to how Saddam feels about the United States.In particular, the current US President. Imagine his response when he was told that his arch nemesis had a son who had just been elected President: "Oh. Goodie."So now Saddam is on TV saying (and I paraphrase): "If anyone attacks me or my country well throw down and kick your ass." But everyone knows that America loves a challenge. And, no doubt, America will forge foward with their War on Terrorism(tm) regardless of what anyone anywhere says, especially when theyve been warned against it. Why shouldnt we be allowed to flip over a couple or a few Iraqi stones and see if theres any terrorists hiding under them? If youre not with us, youre against us. Why cant we just look? What are they hiding? Is it against us? We dont know, so wed better assume that it is. We are entering the peak of our paranoia, and history will remember it as "The War on Terrorism."But what is terrorism? A terrorist is someone who does something horrible to other (usually innocent) people based on their own personal beliefs. Sometimes these beliefs are dictated by a collective. But terrorism itself is not an object which can be fought, despite having personified it with Osamas face; the closest that comes to anything is ethnic cleansing, the act of seeking out and destroying people based on their beliefs. But those are bad beliefs you say. Well, maybe so, but so is Global Civil War. So much for democracy now - because this is the perfect blessing in disguise for the leaders of our respective nations. Julius Caesar spoke of what George W. Bush has put into action - that if you want to take away the rights of your people, you need not fight them for it... just make them so scared that they hand them over to you in a desperate plea for protection.There are going to be bigger messes made of civil demonstrations than has ever been seen before; what happened at APEC was just a prelude to what is yet to be. It set the stage for the totalitarian police state, where the government decides who can say what, and where, and how loudly they can say it, and if you dont agree with them, and if you feel very strongly about that, then you are a candidate for terrorist camp, and therefor a threat to our national security.These are long term effects of the war on terrorism, though we are bound to feel these shock waves sooner than later. What we need to remember, as we in the west go to work or go to school or just go about our daily lives and instead "tune in" to the war on CNN to find out how the days battles progressed, is that if it goes on, it is bound to produce more retaliatory attacks.More importantly, Georges battlecry was heard the world over, and just about every government that has had troubles with anyone is writing on the doors of their enemies, labeling them terrorists. India and Pakistan have been beefing for a long time, and in the past decades both countries acquired nuclear weapons. Israel is lobbing bombs across the Gaza strip at "Palestinian terrorist targets." For all of Tony Blairs lap-dog-esque behavior towards George its actually surprising to see that they havent declared war on the IRA. It wont be long...All this escalating international tension has made bad problems worse all over the world - take Argentina for example. Here is an incredible series of events, the "typical" signs of revolution: Presidents airlifted from palaces due to impinging rioting masses, bankruptcy, intern presidents throwing their hands up in the air and walking out. Amazing stuff, that takes a back seat to bombs falling on caves in the witch-hunt of the millennium.Breeding terrorists then hunting them down is a self-perpetuating cycle. Thats all there is to it. Bombs will fly for a bit because the war machine is an economic happy fairy that makes things better in some ways, and its certainly doing a good job with approval ratings and television ratings. Unfortunately, the long-term effects are something I fear I will have to explain to my kids some day, when I have some:"Daddy, howcome I dont have any rights?""Because, before you were born we allowed them to take away our lives out of fear of death." ------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:First of all I would like to say that I am glad that you are still interested in your topic.Honestly I find that your friend wrote a well put together article, with the exceptions of a few lines it was very nutral and it did not look like he set out to offend anybody. I am not offended by this article but I feel that I must point out a few foulacies, in his logic."Ironic because poppies are pretty much the only thing growing in Afghanistan right now, besides American ego."I do wonder how he would know what our military men feel like. Yep seeing a buddy get his head blown off really raises my ego. Being seperated form my wife and kids really boosts my ego. Yep there are a few more things to think of, than the fact that we are winning in the campaign against Osama. Notice how I did not say the war on terrorisim. I personally feel that that war will be a harder fight than any war that has come before.Personally I feel that he is taking things way out of proportion, but perinoia has the tendency to make that happen.Personally I feel that the IRA is just a group of men and women seeking relegius freedome, now do I have all the facts? No, so I will not pretend to know everything about that situation.About the example of a president leaving his palace (whatever) due to the fact that there are men and women storming it with the intent to kill, ya lemme grab a few dozen of my friends and storm your house and see if it is a situation to where you would sit in your lazy boy and ask us in for tea. No I bet you would run too. (Please do not preceve that as a threat because it most defiatly was not)Do you realise that the war in Iraq has been going on since what whats it '91? No fly zones protecting countries to the north and south have been strictly enforced. Any Iraqi armor that has shown its head have destroyed. America does seem to be the police of the world, but I do recall a time when we did not want to fight. What did that get us? Can you say Pearl Harbor and WWII landing in our lap. After that the two major wars that we have been in were agains the spread of communisim and the iron curtain, if you want to talk about people who have no rights look at communist China, Vietnam, N. Korea, Cuba. I think those are the major ones. We have elected to fight rather than sit at home with our thumbs shoved somewhere unpleasent. The definition of terrorist was alittle off. A terrorist is a person who tries to influence a government or group of people by the use of bombings, highjackings, kiddnaping and assasination.You must also understand that the Al Quida Jihad is not a holy war to the point that it is muslims against America, it is is Al Quida agains all America, including muslims that are Americans, I personally refuse to see someone as a ______ American weather the blank is Muslim, African, Native. Unless that person is an immagrant. If I had to classify myself I would say that I am a Native American, I was born in America, so where my parents and their parents and their parents. I am at least a 4th generation American. It starts to sepperate a little after that due to my Fathers Mothers side immagrating from the glorius UK. None the less every American is an immagrant. Sorry for that little tangent. Back on topic now.You friend does do a wonderfull job of making this whole thing look like a comic book with his "arch nemesis" comment.This a situation that if you do nothing the world will damn you and if you do anything the world will damn you, so I say stay head strong we all gotta die sometime, what do you have in your life that makes you so afriad to die? I am not saying be suicidal just think about it. One day decide that you will not age anymore, decide that you will not let life run its course. I personally am not afraid or a terrorist attack any more than I am of an enimies bullet, is this my training? No, it is just my view on life, I will die when it is my time I can do nothing to speed this on its way nor can I slow it down. You must surrender your rights they can not be taken from you.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Busy, but a couple of points.Your definition of a terrorist is a bit strict. The definition tends to be along the lines of: Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.Many argue that the US attack on Afghanistan was unlawful. The US is actively threatening other countries (when Bush isn't too busy making minor verbal slips and devaluing a friendly currency
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). Therefore by definition the US government can be considered a terrorist group.The IRA's demands are mainly reunification of Ireland and Northern Ireland. They just use religion as another way to work who's the 'enemy'.And the ego thing I think was generally, not just military. You'll have to admit that many people in the US, like the hawks in the government, are feeling very confident right now. The Afghanistani action is percieved as a success. The country is in ruins, Osama is still a free man, but public opinion has never been better. Ego's are strong!


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shizN0T
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Location: Stroudsburg, PA, USA
Member Since: 18th Jul 2001
Total posts: 184
Posted:Well... all I can really say is...Sept 11, I was attacked. My family was attacked. my friends, my children. my way of life. MY, ME. Now I dont care why. why, is a question too late to be asked. Did we start it, did we ask for it? It matters not. weather 'America' started it is not the point. I am not 'America' I am me, and I was attacked just the same as you. Brutaly honest, I dont care if our cause is right or just. I dont care if we are ones that are right. I have been attacked, I would be a fool to not want to defend my self. To say that I am against the war is to say that I dont want to stop my family from being attacked again.

I smell something burning.

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:Terrorism is just another word for nothing left to lose.You have one side that's armed to the teeth, rockets, machine guns, fighters, tanks, infinite resources.How do you counter that when you only have stones to throw?You highjack a plane, and run it into a couple of buildings. Piss a bunch of people off, and hope you can keep them pissed off long enough to spend all of their money, and watch the country collapse from within like the USSR. Most people don't even think about the plan of the terrorist. Does anyone really think that the terrorists believe they're going to win a tit-for-tat war?They're trying to make us spend all of our money. Bush is doing a good job playing into their hands. Spend, Spend, Spend, our military MUST have the money. Let's take away everyone's rights, in pursuit of people who are trying to make life miserable for our gov't. Really, it's the terrorists that win. The terrorists have already won, given such simple objectives for their "jihad"Such a SIMPLE plan, really. Now they just sit back and watch the dominoes.... Are we smart enough to change?

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:The terrorist probably aren't trying to make people spend all their money, they're trying to ferment trouble. And it's worked, big time. They've kicked Bush into action and he's now making more enemies than ever before. Nobody fully supports the US now, everyone thinks there a screw loose somewhere. The most friendly countries agree in principle, but all have said they'll use their own judgement and tactics.With people like Bush firing off their mouths without thinking you don't need terrorists about to cause trouble. Trouble will find them.

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PHL9te
member
Location: Leeds, England
Member Since: 7th Jan 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:Hello again guys... seven pages? Y'all been busy. I think that even before the attack those terrorists considered themselves at war, and the thought of winning didn't even cross their minds... All they want to do is inflict harm, on individual Americans or America or lorries carrying Coke or anything that looks even vaguely American, or even Western. Truth is subjective, especially when it comes to war and politics. The situation in N Ireland was about religion... now it's about gang wars and gun and drug running. Things change. People change, and not always for the best. There'll always be poi. Spin on.--------------------"Too much television watchin' got me chasin' dreams..."--

It was like Hell's kitchen on the day that all seven deadly sins came to dinner and the Devil was trying to do a complex Taiwanese banquet that he'd never attempted before...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually Dom, my definition of terrorist is in the dictionary. Where you see ego I see patriotism, this time I hope its not just a fad like it was during the gulf war. George Bush did not pre9.11 (damn I hate that phrase) invite terrorists to fly planes into our buildings. You make it sound like this was a desired thing. I am sorry but we did not invite people to come and kill Americans. Some say that other countries are jealous about the prosperity that America has had. Lets face it there is not a single country out there that is as young as America that has prosperd like America. I think that there are more grounds for a theory that involves greed than a theory that blames everything on the past 3 administrations. Though some forms of logic may lead to your theory others lead to mine, then again the world is illogical not logical.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridgeedited for spelling[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 20 February 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:*bump*cmon guys, this thread can beat the roll call one.

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well shoot someone had better start posting something contriversial otherwise nobody will have anything to gripe and moan about.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Okay, okay. I am trying to think of something... How about:The treatment of those detained by the US government & their right to a fair trial. Even if it just a matter of protecting the arse of the USA, those detained should have a right to proper legal representation.Contentious enough yet?
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R.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I agree there are rights that all humans have dispite their crimes. Leagle representation is one of them.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

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Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Raymund! We agree an something! Cool!RavingLunatic - I think we need a word count, I think this thread definitely beats the Rollcall on that front. Hang on......Having removed the generic elements of each post the totals are: Rollcall: 41 000 words. Anti War: 58 000 words!That was such a pointless thing to do!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:DOM WE AGREE ON TWO THINGS... THAT WAS POINTLESS. Cool but pointless.(to those offended by the all caps thing
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I was just excited that Dom and I agreed on something!!)


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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RavingLunatic
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Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Yay, we beat the roll call thread!anyway people...what do you think about the US moving into Iraq?Some reports say that the attack will begin in a matter of weeks.When will this end?

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hate to burst your bubble the US never left Iraq, the news just got bored of the same old patroleing the no fly zone story and decided to move on. Lets look at it from a military view point, Sadam has biological weapons, now he is rather pissed at the UN because of the trade sanctions put on him. Has the potential to hit every country on the globe with his bioligical weapons. I have seen some photos of some peopel who have been exposed to things like that. It aint pretty, I wish we could disinvent all of those weapons but we cant. So we must get rid of them and the technology that makes them. Has anybody seen the movie "Chill Factor"? Lets just say that I dont know if "Elvis" really exists but if it did I garuntee you that Sadam's scientists are with in a decade of makeing something that is real powerfull like that. Weapons like what he has are a danger to all people, a germ is the perfect killer it has no fear, no sence of mercy, it doesnt care what it kills. He endangers his own people by even having those weapons. I say that the rest of the world has every right to go in there and wipe out that particuler threat.Sorry for the long rant and I hope it made sence, as usual read it a few times and it should make sence.------------------"Flag of the free heart's hope and home By angel hands to valor given,Thy stars have lit the welkin dome, And all their hues were born in heaven!Forever wave that standard sheet, Where breathes the toe but falls before usWith freedom's soil beneath our feet And freedom's banner streaming o'er us!"Albert J. Beveridge

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:If only we could dis-invent all weapons. A magical dream...But surely the Trade Sanctions in place are effecting those who don't deserve it, those who have little power in that society and therefore are unable to protest Saddam as leader. The Saddams of this world will never be hurt by trade sanctions, as they simply take more from the people below them. At the same time they are a convenient propaganda tool to turn the population against what is seen as a harsh and cruel enemy.Effective? For whom?R. [This message has been edited by Rozi (edited 27 February 2002).]

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:How do you take something away from someone who has nothing?There have been air drops from the UN going on since the begining of the Gulf War. Sactions are designed to effect the cash flow of the country they are not targeted on one person, saying Sadam is a generalisation. None the less sanctions do not work unless you can keep the country aflote enough to keep the people alive. Give them just enought to keep em going but not so much that they can grow. I wish there was no need for my job, but there is and I will do it to the best of my ability.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:But these people did not have "nothing". If that was the case, with the UN food drops, they would have more than they started with, & they would be welcoming trade sanctions
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. Trade sanctions do, as you say, keep a country at a subsistence level, just afloat. Basically they are aimed at ensuring a people cannot advance or make progress. Right? What this does is crushes entrepreneurial spirit (did I spell that right?), because measures are in place to stop advancement. It stops creativity and crushes hope. These things; entrepreneurialism, creative (free) thought, hope for the future, are the very things that freedom in the USA & many other nations were built on. Trade sanctions are a deprivation of freedom. Those who impose the sanctions are seen as the agressors. Therefore the people will not rise up and try and overthrow their leader, rather their energies will go into trying to fight the outside forces who are imposing these measures upon them.I am not saying "don't do anything in this country". I am saying that this may not be the most effective way of getting the desired result, (ie. the overthrow of the current regime who is active in producing weapons of mass distruction).R.[This message has been edited by Rozi (edited 27 February 2002).]


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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