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RavingLunaticmember
286 posts

Posted:
Are you against the war in afghanistan, and against war in general?Well, I would like your help. please send an email to agressivepacifist@hotmail.com if you would like to contribute to an antiwar effort.thanks.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
xtermraver i don't think you guys were humilated or at least i didn't see it that. the way america deserved it from my prespective is that they deal out a hell of alot of shit, through wars and economic power. (at the moment there are the steel tarrifs issue which will affect economically many countries around the world, at the same time the us govt. is getting pissed with former soviot countries for banning chickens that have high levels of antibotices because its hurting amreican jobs). in new zealand after we declared ourselves neuclear free and prohibited nueclear powered ship from our waters, trade between our two countries declined dramatically as did military relations, this affected our countries economy and made a difficult transition from a protected economy to an open freemarket style much more painful. this pain may not be sudden and unexpected death. but the suffering off many people though out new zealand was increased due to the us govts. stance. i don't think america suffered much if at all from there discission. the problem: is prolonged discomfort rated less than extreme short term suffering, for me thats debatible, after awhile you've got hit back at the guy who keeps stealing 10% of your money espically if hes stealing it from everybody.they say two wrongs don't make a right. but do you just sit back and keep getting wronged all the time. only a sucker would do that.

Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
the skater, was the guy in the 3000m mens race. the korea fella won the race, but was disquified by an american judge so the usa guy got promoted from second to first. everbody(the skaters) thought it was a joke, or thats what got reported here. when i say korean people were pissed, i mean they had hours on t.v. about it and if i need to get my students pissed i just mention the skating and they're off for ten minutes singing fucking usa...... that was the event to fully spark off there usa/mr bush sux arsei hope that clears it up for you.i'll ask them about corosponing with you ray, but you gotta remmeber there english is pretty limited, so to have any resonable discussion is gonna take alot of effort. don't worry i do try and stick up for you for what its worth.

*Spinstar*member
6 posts
Location: Kansas City MO, US


Posted:
Okay, I'm just gonna jump in here and get my feet wet. "Hi, my name is Spinstar and I'm a spin-o-holic" [AA Reply]"Hi, Spinstar""I also just pulled myself out of the dark ages and finished watching Apocolypse Now for the first time."

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
valkyrie, I disagree. I don't think humans are by nature a waring race. There's examples throughout history of societies that did not wage war and lived in peace. If people sit back and think that we can't help but kill each other then we'll never change. There are people who always resort to violence, but they tend to be called psychopaths, dictators, evil, hooligans, yobs, etc...I think when people say 'the US deserved it' they really mean that the US was in need of a reminder that the rest of the world existed and that people there might not like what they're doing to other countries. The US needs to have a more thoughtful and openminded foreign policy. Unfortunately the timing of the attack was bad, and there was a warmongering buffoon as president and it all went to hell. Nobody (except a few extremists) thinks that people should have died for the US to open it's eyes.Ray, the tax money on imported steel will not go anywhere near starving people's mouths. There's still bums living homeless on your streets. The tax is solely to deter importing steel from other countries, boosting the weaker US steel industry and harming other countries economies, including the UK. However, as itsgottab points out the US is really quick to fight back when its exports are hit.splerph, thanks
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Good point. The truth is, amongst all this crap about countries developing these nasty weapons, the US has the largest number of evil weaponry and is one of the most secretive when it comes to being honest about these weapons. And the US happily sells weaponry to some awful countries who use them to murder and exploit. It's the pot calling the kettle black.See, I'm still here!

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Well I hope the ailiens that abducted you were umm gentle hehe!!
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Dom's mother: "Dom , I told you to stop playing in the crop circles!!"
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Ok enough harrasing Dom. *Spinstar*, you have definatly found an interesting thread here but you should look at the post called "The Official Poi Role Call". POINT FOR RAYMUND PHULE!!!Itsgottab, thank you for showing some interest in this little project, I dont really need sticking up for but sometimes my mouth needs a muzzel so feel free to kick back any of my letters that you feel as unwarented.I think that America has the right to use whoevers products they want. If I want to buy a Korean car I will but if I wanna buy a Ford I will (and did). I think that being the several million consumers that we are we can buy and sell to who we want and if somebody gets pissy because we took a different offer well then tuff nuggies. Would they like some cheese with that wine, maybe a quarter to call someone who cares?Just the same as if I dont want a Buger King burger I will go to McDonalds. Its a consumers world. Yes it may suck for smaller countries to have to strive to get their economys going but who the hell helped us over 200 years ago. Hmm nobody. Sometimes the hard way is the best way.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


tonemanmember
195 posts

Posted:
You know, it shouldn't be a matter of who helped us. We are in a VERY powerful position, regardless of how we got here, we have and OBLIGATION to aid all of humanity. Points well taken on the US arms situation. I'm not sure how many people are aware, but weapons sales are in the top 5 $$$ for yearly sales. One must ask, who needs military weapons? My guess would be... people that intend to use them to kill other people. Between the USSR and the US, we have armed all of the worlds warring factions. Funny how Iran is now in the 'axis of evil' Bush describes, but if I remember correctly, wasn't there some kind of US gov't consiracy to sell arms to Iran illegally. I think that involved LARGE amounts of drugs as well. HHHMM. Let's see here.We Sell weapons.We Sell drugs.We routinely kill people that oppose us.We set up puppet gov'ts that do what we want.We rob poor people blind (they're the easiest!).We back democratic(elected by US!)dictatorships when it benefits us.We claim we're a christian/religious country when we're really soulless consumers.Sounds like we're a nation of hyppocrites!!Contradiction breeds change, but also makes for good targets for people with more stable (albeit, deranged) ideology.All this talk about our problems, but the people here are the ones that can change our image abroad. Stand by your values. Find some if you don't have any! VOTE!!

nomadBRONZE Member
retired
356 posts
Location: Paris, France


Posted:
Raymond, no offense but you sound like an underinformed average american. Sure, it's a free world and America is free to impose tariffs on products it wants to penalize in order to protect its own economy. You know what, that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, it is SO hypocrite from the US to do so, when all we hear from 95% of US media/politics/economists is that free trade is the way to go, it's a win-win situation, and whoever think it's not is a retarded backwards protectionist. This is supposedly the modern way. The US spend a lot of time and effort spreading the word (through its sister bodies, the IMF and the WTO) around free trade and a barrier-free world. When a country says "No, we disagree, we don't want to have to buy american crap and we reserve the right to refuse/tax such products", the US goes ballistic and says "How dare you do this to us? How stupid are you to not see that this is the way to go?".I wish I could write more but I don't have the time.Nomad------------------A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.Nwww.anthelion.org

splerphBRONZE Member
member
75 posts
Location: Perth Australia


Posted:
Raymund what you said is really a contradiction. You said that as an American you have the right to buy or choose whatever product you want, as it is a Consumers world. Should you not then have the right to choose from a vast range not just an American range.America imposing steel tarriffs or other tarriffs will not just affect the small Countries that you mentioned but it will affect you in the long term and your freedom of choice.oops that was a bit of the Anti war thread wanst it. Sorry. Just felt a need to respond about the steel. I saw the effect that Wool tarriffs had on Australia when I was growing up.
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Smile and the whole world smiles with you


CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
Hey splerph, nice name.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


splerphBRONZE Member
member
75 posts
Location: Perth Australia


Posted:
Hey Cantus
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Thank you!!! Nice of you to say so!

Smile and the whole world smiles with you


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
*Politely asks for a moment to remove the foot out of my mouth* It was a contradiction. Dang for once my mouth just doesnt seem to beable to produce a comeback or even a way to reiderate that to make it not a contradiction. Do I feel like an arse or what. I guess thats why I would rather stay out of politics, your damned if you do buy non-american goods becuase you arnt helping american families and your damned if you dont buy non-american goods because you are aiding the crippleing of a less fortunate cuntry.Could somebody please tell me why I should understand this?Look basicly this is what I feel, if plasing a tariff on forgine steel wool corn rice whatever, will make it so that Americans will buy American made goods, thus makeing it so that Americans keep jobs and keep providing for their familes, then that is a good thing. There is a reason why those teriffs are placed, America has rules and proceedures that must be followed and some if not all cost cash to keep them followed, thus raising the cost of American made goods. Now some countries do not require rules and procedures like America therefore producing cheeper productus, those teriffs make it so that the American made products can compete with the 99 cent forgine version.I think that is a good reason, now as a consumer you have the right to choose what ever you want. I think that you should be paying more for forgine goods rather than goods made localy. It makes sence, why should a cab ride accross town cost less than one down the block? That is basically what it is doing ensureing that the ride down the block is cheeper than the ride accross town.Now I know my spelling in all this sucks and I hope I did not contradict myself but if I did... ehh its not the first time!
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Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


RoziSILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia


Posted:
But at the same time, America has taken a pretty hard line against countries such as Japan, who have tough trade sanctions in place to encourage their people to buy Japanese.This is exactly the contradiction that frustrates people here. I won't say that the US is alone in this. Every time Australia moves towards dismantling barriers to imports, the local industries (and often with reason) scream very loudly. At the same time, they do expect an open export market. R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Well life is just one big contradiction aint it?!?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


RoziSILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia


Posted:
Tis indeed. The big challenge for the world is going to be in reconciling seemingly opposite concepts: - Protecting trade at home whilst having an open market - Defending a nation without warmongeringGonna be tough...R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


valkyriemember
2 posts
Location: SLC, UT


Posted:
O.K. Let me clarify. We all have a basic survival instinct and along with that goes the saying, "survival of the fittest". Throughout history there have been cultures, most of these isolated from the rest of the world, that were peaceful. However history has also shown how each has been in turn subjugated and conquered by those stronger. And those cultures that exist now will in turn be corrupted. They already are. With every foray into the jungles of South America. With every well meaning anthropologist who lives as a member of a society in order to better understand them, they are being introduced to new ways of thinking. And with every day we develop new ways to kill, new ways to prove our point, secure our ideals. All without ever having to see the people we are killing. In the past we fought for our homes, our freedom, our families. We still do. Only now we are better at the killing. And we have given ourselves so many more reasons to kill. I don't think that this war is a good thing. War never is. But I don't have the power to change it. I do have the power to support my loved ones, to hope and pray they return safely to me. To raise my children to be the best they can. To live my life the best I can. And yes, I will not hesitate to kill anyone who harms me or mine. A man is walking along the beach one day and finds a bottle buried in the sand. He picks it up, rubs it, and out comes a Djinn. Being a good person, (socially concious, politically correct, recycles, helps old ladies across the street) he wishes for World Peace. And in the next instant the entire human race is wiped out. Peace on Earth, Goodwill Toward ?

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Humorus and true. So what does everyone say, lets all commit mass suicide so that there can be peace on earth, umm no, I think that living in an unperfect world is better than not living at all. You can not stop a war, only the persons who started it can stop it and even then it takes both sides agreeing to it. War will never end. The outcry of any group of people will not stop anything, that my friends are the cold hard facts like it or not. So in retrospect weather you are for or against war, it really doesnt matter. You dont even have the power to save your own life, sure you can attempt to prolong it, but you cant save it. That just sucks doesnt it. I laugh at the irony of life. Life begins and it ends, that is the only thing we are garunteed on this little rock, we will come into this world and we will leave it by one means or another. Live long and prosper. Ha!I am sorry I am in a real morbid mood today. I dont really know why, ohh well, I must press on.So Itsgottab, has your class anything to say to me or was my idea blown off by all, if it was 'se la vi' such is life.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 24 March 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
BUMPImpaitent bugger aint I?!?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
There are other ways to end wars.....If there's no one left to fight then (oddly enough) there's no one left to war. Solution - kill everyone else on he planet.If the enemy has no weapons then he cannot fight. Solution - remove the enemy's weapons. Lord Kitchener tried this during the first world war by using legion upon legion of British soldiers to soak up the German bullets. Cunning plan. Hide well enough and the enemy will give up looking for you and go home.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Cantus, you are a wise man indeed, but (there always seems to be a but... or an ass but either way its still there)... take away my gun and I'll use my knife, take away my knife and I'll use my fists, take away my fists and I'll BEAT YOU TO DEATH WITH MY BLOODY STUMPS!!!!! Sorry got a bit carried away.
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Those are some of the ways to end wars and I do get your little pun there at the end. As long as there is a person there will be people, as long as there are people there will be fear, as long as there is fear there will be hatred, as long as there is hatred there will be violence and as long as there is violence there will be war. Solution? Get rid of the people. Now you may be able to stop a war but you can not stop war alltogether, my faith in the human race just isnt strong enough to believe that we can stop hateing eachother for one stinking night. I can garuntee you that even if the whole world wanted to there could not a be a dusk till dawn truce. It can not nor will it ever happen. I hate to be the berrer of bad news but sucks dont it?Ohh ya Cantus you forgot to mention that the Russians used the same tactics that the Brittish used.Just thought I'd add my own little bit of info.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 28 March 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


RoziSILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia


Posted:
You know, you guys are putting forward an argument that by its very nature cannot be defeated. Because as long as enough people believe it is impossible to stop war (and quite often, "enough" can mean a tiny group) it will be so. As long as you wash your hands of the problem, "too hard", "can't be done", "human nature", you will not attempt to solve it.I am not being naive. There are unattainable goals in this world, but humankind is often bettered by those who strive to reach them. People such as Ghandi, & Guxmao, have made the world a better place for a short time, by striving towards these goals, because they worked towards the unattainable. So, drop the cynicism. Take up the pragmatism. And take practical steps towards attaining a dream.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
was the 'he planet' just an interesting slip of the finger cantus? it seems some how appropriate.ray did you hear about the us soilder who was charged with raping a woman in japan, okinawa. the japanese convicted him and sentenced him, he got 2 years. the us army was upset because its very difficult to get a rape conviction if you are a japanese man i japan, so the soilder fella got 'done over' they said. my words not theirs. this is from the big wigs of the us military oragisnation. now i'm not saying all soilders are rapist, but when the boss doesn't consider it a crime worth more than two years imprisionment, it makes me seriously question whats sort of culture/people exist in the military.ray please don't take this as if you should explain the actions of the boss or anything.

CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
You might want to explain that again Dan. It's not very clear what you mean (I understand but others might not).

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
now i think your're just begin cheeky, or pushing your self elivating button
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the he bit. its a mans world! to be a little more correct 'its a crazy mans world'

CantusSILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,965 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom


Posted:
Not that y'muppet. The japanese rape thing. It's not too clear as to the point you're making.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
well, the us complained that their 'S' got an unfair trail, the japs came down hard on him cos he was american. rape unfortunately is rape, and this guy deserves alot more than 2 years. but in japan rape convictions are a rarity so 2 years might seem like quiet abit. but its the attitude of the military establishment that is turely shocking, the only concern is that the japanese aurothies had the cheek to openly suggest they didn't like the us military presents in their country, expressing that though an over the top conviction by japanese standards.theres no apolgy or none has been reported, just complaints, or unfairness, i'm sorry but really, that whole attitude is just totally offencive.and then, what sort of people make up military units, where this sort of attutide is freely expressed. the sort that need to have a great many wars as outline by cantus. re 2.
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i'm so happy to have found these smilie face things, and by mistake too. [This message has been edited by itsgottab (edited 28 March 2002).]

RoziSILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia


Posted:
Rape as a means of torture & a means of destroying a culture has to be one of the most terrifying things that I can contemplate.So many war crimes have occurred that involve the rape of women (& men in some instances, maybe less reported). With the additional horror that in some cultures the belief is that the only way of retaining the honour of the family, is to kill the woman. At the very least, she will be ostracised, and at a time when she most needs the support of her family. This is, in part, why it is done. To bring a very real dishonour on the families of those you are fighting.I can only begin to imagine that pain.R.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
If you believe that you are powerless and that your fate is ruled by your uncontrollable subconscious then you're doomed. However if you take positive action to change the way the world works then you can make a difference, locally and globally. A mass protest against war won't stop the war the next day, but it may influence those who make decisions, especially when government ministers are leading the march. The messages will spread slowly but they will begin to affect other people. This applies to issues from war and human rights to local politics.Ray, true power is not in guns and armies, but in words, emotions and movements.I haven't hit anyone since I was about 13, and as a kid I used to have a bit of a temper. And since then I've been hit only once, at 18, by a drunk squaddy in a club. And I've been in plenty of violent situations where fists were raised against me, and where others would have hit first. It may be self-righteous, but I think I'm better than those who resort to violence without thinking. And if I can do it, everyone else can, just by thinking and having some empathy.2 years for rape? Not enough! I thought the military was meant to be harsh, but that probably only relates to cases where somebody doesn't do what they're told.Islamic countries tend to be really awful in the treatment of rape victims. The state may just ignore the incident and the only help is from a handful of charities (some of whom are having to close down due to GW Bush reducing funding for any foreign organisation that supports abortion). In places like Afghanistan it's common for a family to murder a daughter who has been dishonored, while the male is often a friend of the family and remains as such. It's stomach churningly upsetting. I think that's one of the few things that'd lead me to violence.Peace.

Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
respect to your comments, i just thought i'd clarify, that the rape committed by the american soilder against the japanese woman happened in peace time okinawa, japan.

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Hilarious quote of the day from a BBC News Article"After 11 September my interest in Afghanistan grew. I rented Rambo III from the video store which shows the other side of the story. The US pumped $3.7m into weapons for Afghanistan and I didn't trust the media accounts of what was happening."Er, wouldn't a documentary be better? Or read books? No, a Hollywood film notorious for being a Stallone vehicle with dire plots was deemed by this guy to be a better source of information about Afghanistan!

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH AFGANISTAN!!! I say that in caps to get through peoples skulls.Secondly, I have seen Japenesse men and women get into car acidents with Americans being the Japenesse fault and seen the American go to jail. If someone would explain that to me, I would like to know why that happens. Also if a Jap. (I am lasy therefore I will abrviate it is not a slander on the Japenesse so please do not see it as such) father finds out that his daughter has had consentual sex he still has the right to call it rape if the male did not have his approval to have sex with his daughter. It doesnt matter what nationality the man is. So with out knowing any of the facts of the case I think that the US Army was right in complaining about the sentance. None the less if it was true rape then he was let of way to friggin easy. It is a tragidy.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


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