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Pink...?
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There, United Kingdom

Total posts: 6140
Posted:I know there's been a lot of talk about this on HoP, and a lot of people probably dont want to talk about it.

Just wondering how many people want to stop the war?

Alice


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy


The_Pirate_Dyke_Boy

HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
Location: Canterbury, UK

Total posts: 1079
Posted:i think everyone shud CHILL THE FRUK OUT. your all getting too worked up about this. Raymund, no offencen but you are getting thirstier and thirstier for blood everytime i read one of your posts. everyone has their own views, respect them, and iff you don't agree, shrug your shulders an say, repeat afta me...

"ne'er minde eh!"

GOOD! now go do a mad spin sesh, go on, NOW!!!


D.B.
X x X x X

Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!

Master of the Free Hug Program

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund:
Please relay this to Greg. Hmm actually advise him to hop on HOP... ohh bad pun.

Anyhoo...

I am trying to ignore everything that he said that is... irrelevent though I do wish to comment on it. If I did it might flame things up and I realy would rather debate rather than fight.


Is Bush's popularity going up? Honestly I dont know for sure but I dont think it is. Is he a war mongerer? I absolutly believe that he is! I still dont think that he is after oil. Terrorisim has to be stopped, I dont believe that war is the only way but with the situation in Iraq, I have not seen a better way to get things done. Wow, that was really out for blood!

The thing with Iraq, isnt about terrorisim. It is about enforcing the Laws that were put into effect 12 years ago. 4 years ago the UN was kicked out of Iraq, that alone should have brought reprecussions down on Iraq. An Air Campainge should have resumed and anything that looked suspicous should have been vaporised.

To use an example, you wouldnt allow a serial killer to stay out of jail just because he ran from the cops now would you?

There is a difference in extreems but there are similarities in this case. Saddam/Iraq (Iraq as a country not as in the people) are represented by the serial killer and the UN is represented by the cops.

Pink Poi, honestly I dont know who all those guys are but give it time, you cant go after everyone at the same time.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I know that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, but I feel our ‘beloved’ leaders are acting like a lynch mob under the present circumstances. I don’t think the end justifies the means, especially if International law is cast aside, because it sets a precedent for the future invasions, of perhaps not so bad countries.

Also, if anyone presented that type of evidence (like Colin Powell presented to UN) against the United States, then everyone would say it was ridiculous.

So is the imminent US invasion justifiable??????
Certainly not legally, morally perhaps? Here is an extract from a bit from an excellent discussion on the topic.

One of the precedents they (Bush et al) are trying to use to justify the invasion of Iraq is the case where NATO forces went in to Kosovo, to stop the widespread ethnic cleansing, without the authority of the Security Council. There was a lot of debate about the legality of that action. Now, the consensus from international community was that that action was legitimate, albeit not legal. The Iraq situation is a lot different, so the precedent does not hold (adapted from Devika Hovell)

Check out the transcript ABC TV Lateline it’s well worth a read.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:12 years ago the UN placed certain sactions on Iraq. 4 years ago the UN was kicked out of Iraq and they did nothing. Why? They knew right then that Iraq had broken international law and broken a sort of contract with the UN. Why was nothing done, and now that someone has decided that it is time that Iraq pay its debt to society the world is asking for proof. Well, what happend 4 years ago was enough for the UN to go back into Iraq and pretty much take over. That in itself is all that they need.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Lesbian Lover if you think this is Raymund at his worst than you need to do some backtracking to threads like Say No To War,Iraq,A Beautiful Rendition,etc.He is not half as wound up as normal.

Raymund the USMC thing was a joke.A bad one but still a joke.Hence the graemlin.There was a time when I wanted to be a Marine and have a good degree of respect for your branch.I'm gonna put a disclaimer in my sig just for you.I didn't misspell your name I was actually calling you something different.Like Ray-man.

Since 9-11 President Bush's approval rating has fallen about 40%.I know I have implied in the past that this war is a popularity contest but if it is than it is not working.Also in my opinion, this war is partially about oil but is also about weapons testing but you could also say it is Bush finishing what daddy started or maybe the U.S. trying to flex it's muscles for the rest of the world though than again it could be a way to divert attention from the Prez's plans for the economy or even still a way to slip new laws in under the guise of "Homeland Security".The bottom line is that assuming you know what this is about makes you no better than them.How can you possibly say you are 100% sure that this is being done for oil?I do believe there are alterior motives but it can't possibly be all about oil.

Now for the most important question of the day:

Drum roll please ...
Non-Https Image Link
...ok that's not much of a drum roll but it will have to do.

What law of physics states that if you hit a Heinz Ketchup bottle on the 57 etched into the glass it will make the ketchup come out but hitting it anywhere else does absolutely nothing?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Check it Poiaholic... if you really wish to see me all riald up and in the intemperance of my youth, read the Anti War Thread.


Anyhoos to the topic at hand... wow no topic at hand... how boring


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:I read about 4-1/2 pages of that thread so far and I must be grateful I wasn't around at the time.I'll get to the rest of it sooner or later but I'm just too damn tired to finish now.

I have noticed that the name of the topic changes but the debate stays very similar.Some of the opinions that have been posted in this thread are like repeats from that thread just different people applying them.After a year though and all that has happened in 2002 and 2003 I would also like to know what Dom thinks about the mess in Iraq.Maybe I'll PM him and see if he'll give some quick insight.

For now though I've got to catch some ZZZZZZZZ's
Non-Https Image Link


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom is on vacation right now, enjoying himself from what I hear. I must agree though I would like his opinion and addition to the debate.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote: Originally posted by Raymund:

Killing is not murder in war by definition of the law Okay I can understand that.Yet the Geneva Convention says that assassination is a crime of war.If you assassinate someone is that no different than killing them?How can it be wrong to kill a tyrannical dictator yet be okay to kill innocent Iraqi civilians?

Now before you get all pissed off let me ask what I'm really trying to get at.Do you or do you not feel that this would be a whole lot easier if we just went in and just killed Saddam and his crew?

I could care less if that was our intentions.I just can't believe we are willing to sacrifice people who have no more say in what he (Saddam) does than we do.They supposedly aren't even given the option of who to vote for much less have any say on his policies.

Though I did breathe a sigh of relief today when I read that Iraqi officials are being more cooperative with U.N. inspectors.I know it doesn't mean much but what's wrong with having a little hope?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:I cant tell you why one things is okay the other isnt but I can tell you that yes it would make things easyer.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:This 'war' is insane. Even without all the compelling reasons NOT to invade Iraq, we have to remember that war is a bad thing.

Pink Poi started this topic to discuss ways to stop the war, not have people sniping at one another again about how this war is necessary.

So can we get back to discussing how we can positively stop the war, and bring some small moderation of peace to our destructive world.

Peace Love Unity Respect

Kathryn


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Kat, I can see why the arguments on this thread might irritate you, but that doesn't seem a reason to say THATS IT DEBATE OVER WAR IS BAD. Like it or not, there is a difference of opinion, even though its heavily weighted in one direction.

This thread was asking peoples opinions about the possible war, and thats what its got.

If you want that thread you're talking about, which warmongering idiots like myself will respectfully avoid, then start it, rather than deciding that this one should change.

<posted by the usually good tempered Simian>


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Simian,

There was already a thread debating the war.

This was meant to be a thread about how to stop the war.

I am not stopping debate, merly tired that a thread that was meant to promote peace has been turned into another debate about whether to go to war or not

Respectfully yours


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:BTW Simian,

Don't appreciate you getting bad tempered with me before getting your facts straight

I have been involved with debate on the other war in Iraw thread.

Just annoyed that Pink Poi's thread has gone down the whole route, et yada yada yada.

By how we can stop war, I presume that Pink Poi meant, 'how can we bring peace', not 'how can we rile up those "warmongering" idiots to rehash the same old arguments for war'

(Kat patiently awaits ass kissing apologies from Simian


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:I'm sorry about the bad tempered bit. It wasn't directed at you, but re-reading it I realised that was exactly what it looked like. What I meant was that this whole thread always puts me in a bad mood (check out my other posts. If i sound then I'm doing a good job of hiding my ). It was sort of meant as a skewed apology in itself, kinda "sorry if this is a bit strong, but I'm not always like this".

As to your points about what this thread is for... sorry, I still disagree. First of all, the question was not "how can we bring peace?" it was "Just wondering how many people want to stop the war?". Open to interpretation, I'll grant you But I chose to interpret it as asking what peoples opinions about stopping the war were.

Other threads debating Iraq There was the "Say No To War" Thread, and the "utopian alternatives to war" Thread, both of which concerned Iraq, but I didn't post on those because they weren't put there for the purpose of debating the pros & cons of a war, they were put there to promote peace (oh the irony).
Of course I've probably overlooked some massive thread called "Open Debate about the Possible Conflict in Iraq all viewpoints welcome", but hey thats what you get for being searchaphobic.

Well, whatever this thread was meant for, it wasn't meant for discussion about what the thread should be about. That would just be silly.

hmm, there was an apology, but was it sufficiently ass-licking?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Ah Peace Reigns Simian, No need to kiss ass, good point re. thread made.

You know I think I am just going to have to bump the happy thread again. I really should not venture into these threads anymore as I am in fact very intolerant to anyone who thinking killing someone solves problems, although after reading these iraq threads, its easy to have murderous thoughts about our fellow man

Think happy thoughts


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I keep promising myself not to come back to these threads but I will try get it back on course a little....

And joy to everyone the French and Germans veto, hooray.

quote:Raymund said : Terrorisim has to be stopped, I dont believe that war is the only way but with the situation in Iraq, I have not seen a better way to get things done.
I think it's the french who are saying it now (and Hans Bliks has been saying it for ages), there is a 3rd alternative. More weapons inspectors. They want to triple the number and now they're using spy planes and stuff.

No weapons, nobody gets hurt.
What can we do Alice? We got Dublin covered for Poi 4 peace with looooaaads of drummers tooo...


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Kat the beauty of this thread by comparison to the other war threads is that everyone has remained relatively civil.The Say No To War thread was started as a way to get people involved in an anti-war rally and it turned into stone throwing.Not saying I'm not guilty there but let's stay calm.As for the original point of this thread seeing as you are so concerned about it what would you do to prevent war in Iraq?

I think France and Germany have a good idea going about increasing the number of inspectors.Except I would say increase the number 100 fold.Overrun the country with inspectors.With the presence of all the U.S. and U.K. troops in the area Saddam would only seal his coffin by doing something to them.


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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:Rather than get involved in another version of this same debate, I will simply point out that I'm pretty sure that France and Germany agreeing politically is one of the seven signs of the apocolypse.

Raph


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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Never said I wasn't wrong.Who do the French get along with?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:I like a certain french person so

Anyhow... weapons inspections have failed in the past and I agree that stricter weapons inspections is a good thing but I just dont have the faith that they will work.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Fire_Emanator


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 96
Posted:I think that there should be weapons inspection and disarming of the USA...they are far more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. They have a nuclear arsenal and a bioweapon Arsenal, and so far in the history of war, are the only country to use a nuke in war. To top that off, the US is run by a despotic, dictatorial tyrant, that looks like a gimp, who cannot articulate any vocabulary beyond, "The game is over"...what an idiot, the americans ahould be ashamed of this situation. The planet is about to be plunged into a state of Chaos, because a redneck Texan, with a small johnson, thinks he has a say in what goes on in the politics of a middle eastern country, that he probably could not find on a map.
Seriously, Amricans, British and Australians, should all be utterly ashamed that they support their leaders in this situation. If you are not, then be proud...Proud that it is this generation, in an age of enlightenment, in an age where war is not an answert that has, despite the fact that we are the most advanced beings on the planet, resorted to using violence to solve problems.

Jesus what a fucken joke, Bushbaby is like a goddamn kindergarten reject...standing on his side of the fence hurling abuse at the kid on the other side, being a bloody brave little shit, telling his jokes about the other kid's Momma's fat ass. If he were to stand in front of Sadam, and even try to act vaguely like a dignified world leader, his little boner would flop and he would wet his fucken nappy!

I say bring on the fucken war, I'd like to see the the first world get it's ass truly kicked...unleash the dogs I say. If the first world thinks that the middle east is going to sit back while this happens, they are mistaken. By the way did anyone know that Indonesia has a population of one billion. Yes folks, 1Bn Muslims. Thanks to John Howard for turining our nearest neighbours into our biggest potential threat.
I am between dispair and hysterical laughter at this situation. Dispair at the fact that our leadres are such warmongering, idiots, and laughter at the fact they think they can simply enforce their will on the third world.
Wak up people, this is not the fucken movies, we are about to enter a period in history that will not leave a heritage to be proud of. And to those who are in support or it, see you in hell with a bucket of water.


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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Fire_Emanator


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 96
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund:
Okay, I am about tired of this shit. I have been trying to see the presentation that Powel made before the UN. I have also been trying to see the political shows that debate the presentation.

So far I have been unsuccessfull. The chanel has done something stupid every time something contraversial comes up. Like an unscheduald comercial break or it will flip to another show entierly.

This makes me about ready to swap sides, I'll never believe that it is all about oil but this really really raises my bull shit flag! Holy shit, I am amazed, did Raymond have a moment of enlightement there...


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yes, I never said I liked Bush or the Admistration, heavens knows I didnt vote for them, but I will follow my orders something that very few of you can understand.


Anyhoo...

Sorry, the Muslim faith isnt about killing, not all Muslims want to crush America and its Allies?


Read the Sig. Marines are the Dogs of War, we arnt called Devil Dogs for nothing.


Sorry Fire_Emanater, you are just talking alot of smack about something that you can not fully grasp.

I am full of pride, pride in my God, my Country and my Corps.

In all of history nobody has dropped a nuke! The US did however drop two Atom bombs over Japan, then after all had calmed down rebuilt those cities. I have been to Hiroshima where one of the bombs was dropped if it had been a nuke nobody would be there for a very very long time.

However, Bio weapons have been used before, by Saddam on the Curds that live in the Northern part of Iraq. He has attempted Genocide, yet the UN doesnt want to do anything about that.

Now that somebody is tired of Saddams crap the world views it as an attempt to get oil.

Personally Fire_Emanator, your the one that needs to wake up.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:poiaholic,

I wasn't knocking the French, just trying to add a little levity to an overheated thread.



Raph


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Fire_Emanator


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 96
Posted:Sorry Ray, but you and everyone else who thinks that violence is a way to solve the world's political problems, need to wake up to the fact that the use of military force has no place on this planet.
After two world wars, and a couple of Millennia of mankind using force as a diplomatic tool, it is time for us to realise that Violence is not a way to solve problems...

Useful info: If the world cut it's defence budget by 1% there would be enough funds for EVERY human being to be clother, housed and fed for a lifetime...imagine 10%. 50% 100%!

I mean, what the hell are we even making weapons for, it is utterly pathetic, we are an advanced civilisation that are able to communicate, surely we don't need to shoot at one another to communicate! or we could even play scissors paper rock, or chess or something, but killing people you disagree with or don't like is bloody uncivilised...


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:*sticks head in room to make sure everything is cool and that there are no teenagers making out on the bed*

HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:quote:Originally posted by flash fire:
*sticks head in room to make sure everything is cool and that there are no teenagers making out on the bed* I would be arrested for making out with teenagers..



Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Fire_Emanator you need to stop putting words in peoples mouths, I never said that violence was the way to solve any problem. All I have said is that I have yet to see a better way to do things.

Ohh and where did you get your facts about the worlds budget on defence?

I hardly think that is accurate.

Ancient Rome was considerd civilised yet they killed people for sport!

Civilised combat was seen as lining up on either side of a hill and charging at each other.

Civilised, bah! The world hasn't been civilised since Cane and Able!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:I am part French so

Raph I was trying to make a funny too.Every now and then someone needs to try to lighten the mood or Raymund goes off the deep end.

quote: Originally posted by Raymund:

Now that somebody is tired of Saddams crap the world views it as an attempt to get oil. Let's back up to 1998 when President Clinton wanted to do something about Saddam Hussein when he threw the weapons inspectors out of Iraq.If he was really that much of a threat we would have gotten rid of him then.Now I have agreed that there is no way this can be solely about oil but let's not pretend that our (meaning our government) motives are truly that noble.

Fire_Emanator I am ashamed to be a human being because of this mess. No one should be proud of what's going on here.I'm not rooting for either side because I think both are in the wrong.Saddam is a despicable person but he has been that way for what two decades now and we are only just now dealing with this situation.We act all high and mighty because we're gonna get him when we should have never let it get to this point in the first place.If someone had done something about Adolf Hitler before he amassed the power he did there may not have been a WW2 or a holocaust.You figure,as a species,we would have learned a lesson from that but obviously not.Though I digress,b1tching about what we should have done will not change the situation at hand.

Also the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki may not have been nuclear but last I knew none of the other countries on this planet have ever used a weapon remotely as destructive as those two bombs were.I think all countries should disarm.The easiest way to achieve this is if we all just refused to take orders from these maniacs we call world leaders.However that will never happen simply because too many people are born to be followers.

Ray would I be mistaken in thinking that the U.S. spends billions a year on its defense budget?If so then take however much every other country spends on their's,add them all up and knock 1% off the total.I betcha that number would be staggering.

Also the Islamic religion,like Christianity,is not about killing.However I would think it is safe to say that these Islamic extremists are doing what they feel is right. Not saying that I agree. How do you condemn someone for doing something they feel is right?Also bear in mind the Catholicism has a lot of skeletons in it's closet as well.

In closing,there may not be much we can do to stop war in Iraq but the least we can do is be understanding about each other's view points and not start petty arguments with each other.In an uncivilized world let's try to have civilized conversation.

Oh and for all of you who need a little extra to cheer you up.


Non-Https Image Link


Hey,I tried.


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