Forums > Social Discussion > War on Iraq

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Pinky, Pinky, Pinky...
Surely by now you must know about the "Search" function

Can you not bump and old one?
Or maybe put it in as a poll suggestion?

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
I disagree.The past threads on this subject have been very draining and more focused on fighting with each other than on the subject.I think a new thread could be a chance to have a civil discussion about this global topic.I say give it a chance.

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
As long as we're giving civil discussion a chance how bout we give peace a chance too? In all seriouness I would not like to see my country go to war. If war was unavoidable in that we were attacked first that's a completely different story. Iraqi officials (dunno what their credibility is, but this is one point of view) have said that if any fighting should occur that they would remain within the borders of their own country. i.e. They would only defend themselves against invaders. I do not think that Hussein is a nice man nor do I think that he is a kind dictator, but I do think that Bush is looking to start a war for the wrong reasons.

Bush promises to rebuild the economy while at the same time saying we should go to war. Is it any coincidence that wartime economies always thrive? And I read something a week ago (since this is not an essay or anything I'm not going to bother quoting sources or anything) that talked about how the U.S. is preparing to "seize Iraqi oil fields." Why cut down our own emissions and fossil fuel use when we can just steal some from another country? I don't think this is entirely the case, but again, it's one point of view.

Iraq almost certainly has biological and/or chemical weapons. I don't believe that they have, or will have in the near future, the capability to send said weapons over here to the U.S., so I do not feel threatened by them. Even if they wanted to launch a missle at us it wouldn't make it past Europe, nevermind the Atlantic. The only thing that bothers me is that Iraq would probably have no problem boosting its own economy by selling bio/chemical agents to Islamic terrorists. I don't know if this has happened or will happen, but I don't much like the idea of it. Still, I don't think that invading the country and forcing Democracy on them is the solution here. If we're saying that they have horrible awful weapons why would we want to send in troops that they could test them on?

Disclaimer: Though I always strive to have as open a mind as possible, I am an American. As such I have about a million unstated cultural assumptions in my opinions/views even if they aren't the same as other Americans. I can only speak from what I know and have been through, though I will always try to understand the cultural context of others' views. Actually, I'm quite interested on how the rest of the world (from England to Australia) views this situation though.

~And when the day arrives I'll become the sky, and I'll become the sea, and the sea will come to kiss me for I am going home. Nothing can stop me now.~

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Having said that,I will say my position on this is kind of strange.Having never been outside of the States I don't know enough about international affairs to really feel one way or the other.I don't want the war because I feel it will only make things worse but should we allow someone like Saddam Hussein to continue to rule in Iraq?I question the motives behind this war especially when there are so many other important things being ignored because of it i.e. Bin Laden is still on the loose,the nuclear crisis in North Korea,the oil strikes in Venezuala,the failing U.S. economy,global warming,et cetera.

I was skimming through a copy of the Advocate the other day and found an article written by a vet of the Gulf War and his take on the war.In it he made a point that had never crossed my mind before.In so many posts Raymund has expressed his desire to protect us from harm.Well the anti-war movement is our way to protect him and those in the service being told this is the right thing to do.Here is a link to that article Take it from a Veteran

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
personally I feel that the americans.. (government as opposed to the people as a whole mind you) want the middle east oil fields. that's what all this is trult about, this war on terror/disarm Iraq kisk is just another way to try and get them

There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
This is true but let's not forget about weapons development.I'm sure weapons developers are just giddy with anticipation to try out there new toys.No matter what anyone says there is more to this than meets the eye.

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
In my opinion, its my job to protect you. Dont worry about me.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
i think it is a joke, America funded most of iraq's weapon development when they were fighting with iran.
and America has double the weapons of mass destruction than the rest of the world put together if you deny it then you are incredibly ignorant.
they had no reason to attack afghanistan either Osama bin laden was born in saudi arabia and Al Qaeda was designed to avenge america of the horrible things they did in the gulf war and it was started in Saudi aswell Al Qaeda has HQ's all over the world.
they probabally do want the oil aswell but north korea is the next on Americas kill everyone make us feel good campaign hit list and they don't have oil.

moral of the story is "make love , not war"

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Hey Pink.

In answer to your original question (which was a new slant on this ), yes I want to stop the war. I have a lot of reasons.


I will add another question, one which has me stumped, even though I think about it every night.

Is there any way through non-violent means that the ordinary people can stop war?

So if anyone has info as to whether anyone in history has succeeded in this, I would love to know it.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Rozi, lots of wars have been influenced by non-violent means. The Gulf War's quick end was certainly influenced by protests back in the US. The president at the time was under tremendous pressure from a growing anti-war sentiment. US involvement in the Vietnam war was certainly swayed by sentiment back home. There's no doubt that had we comitted every resource towards that war it would have had a different ending.

Don't be fooled. This is, technically, somewhat of a democratic society. If Americans really didn't want a war, there wouldn't be one.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
"I'm sure weapons developers are just giddy with anticipation to try out there new toys."

Are you referring to the US or Iraq? (rhetorical question)

The more I learn about history the more I think that war is completely inevitable. There will always be someone, somewhere that wants a bigger piece of the pie and be willing to go to great lengths to get it. As technology increases so does the amount of destruction from war. Maybe when every country is in a giant cold war we will either A) die from stress B) blow up the planet and a select few will live out the rest of their miserable lives in fallout shelters or C) disarm.

I also think its interesting that the most neutral country (switzerland) in the world is also has the largest army (per capita).

Sorry if my post seems like its rambling, I'm a bit tired. (insert sleepy Graemlin) Zzzzzzz

Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
I worked with a fellow last summer who had a friend in the Iraqi army. The day he (the friend) heard George Bush Jr. was ellected president he said "Oh hell, we're going to war". Now here we are, several years later.

I believe it was George Bush Sr. who helped Sadam get into power in the first place. Perhaps Jr feels the need to fix his father's mistakes? This friend also believes that the Twin Tower attack may not have been a total suprise. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories but he claimes that it is highly unlikely that the US would not have heard anything about such an organized attack. Allowing it to occur would definitely give George an excuse to attack Iraq.

I can not defend this theory. It comes from an Iraqi soldier (conscripted, not voluntary) who is not looking forward to the -seemingly- inevitable US invasion.

The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
As for myself, I hope the war does happen. I hope the casulaties are high on both sides. I also hope that there are no civilians injured in the conflict (the only hard part).

The world is over-populated as it is, we need some sort of population control be it war, plague, or (seems to be likely) fammine. Wars are a natural state of existance. Many species have members of thier population who's sole function is to kill (eg, soldier ant).

Idealy we would have no need of a military, but as it is I am thankfull to those who will wager thier lives for my "freedom". While it is unfortunate that they believe they must kill to protect thier country, that they do makes them indespensible.

The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
Raymund the same thing that gives you concern for our safety gives us concern for yours.It's only natural that people not want to see American (or any) lives jeopardized for the wrong reasons.I have a couple friends in the service and don't want them there (i.e.Iraq) any more than I want you there.Granted you may not be there now but if the American people don't speak out about it now then what will prevent this from happening?

I was also refering to U.S. weapons developers.Already seen a news program about all the new goodies they are dieing to try out.As always finding more and more efficient ways to kill other human beings.

Jaedan I don't know how much you keep up on things going on in the States but evidence has already been found to say that the WTC attacks could have been avoided.Though for now they are pointing the finger at the FBI and CIA and a lack of communication.Personally I think they let it happen.On 9-10-01 George Bush was the biggest clown to ever be elected president and on 9-11 he was the greatest guy who ever lived.At one point in the weeks that followed the attacks a poll made him the 2nd most popular president behind only Abraham Lincoln.Also while watching an interview with Bill Clinton he rambled off almost a dozen terrorist plots that had been thwarted by those same intelligence agencies during his tenure.None of them had the magnitude of the WTC attacks.

I notice some like to throw that "defending our freedom" in to their replies.Yet this is the same administration that is pushing the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Bill,both being gross violations of our constitutional rights.

Posted: 1st Feb 2003

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Posted: 1st Feb 2003
bottom line fer me, US knew about TWAT, planned TWAT, Irag fits within TWAT, mo money WHAT? sorry, no one else is behind it, wtf else is it about..Does anyone else even know remotely about Pearl Harbor?? That might clear up things a bit, hmm

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
Gee I thought Saddam rose to power in a military take over. George Bush was only a vice president when that happend. Unfortunaly the vice president doesnt do anything but sit around and try to look busy.

But it is nice of you to blame the Bushes for all twentyith and twentyfirst century problems. Whats next Bush Sr. and Hitler went to Harverd together?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
That's kind of odd though because I thought it was still the U.S. government that aided him in taking over that country kind of the same way we trained men like Osama Bin Laden.Whether it was so they could combat the Communist invasion or just being a little too naive we did have a part in it.Though we shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement.What may have seemed like a good idea at the time can always come back to bite you in the a$$.

[ 02. February 2003, 22:11: Message edited by: poiaholic22 ]

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
On the subject of Pearl Harbor,allowing that event gave President Roosevelt the support he needed to get us involved in a war we needed to be a part of.History has questioned if we would have won had we waited any longer.It was as they say a "necessary evil".As a matter of fact the tide didn't turn in our favor until Hitler turned on Russia.

The war on terrorism is BS.It's only giving terrorists more reasons to hate this country.

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
Sorry man, we stopped Iran from doing the same thing Iraq tried to do to Kuait.

Secondly we didnt train OBL

Theird, Nobody allowed Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor.

Please no more conspiricy theories.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
This war is quite simply Bush's way to deflect attention away from the poor economic state of the US.
Watch "Wag the Dog" to see where this refinished cabinet got the brilliant idea. I suppose it could be worse, they could have been watching the 3 stooges!

Raph

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
People who watch the economy will always watch the economy. You cant really blame Bush for everything. The US economy has been fluctuaiting for years now, even before Bush Jr. The attack on the WTC was a cripiling blow to the US and other World Economies.


Perhaps if they had been watching Abot and Costellos' "Who's on First?" things would be different.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
I don't blame Bush or the republicans for the US econonomy. I DO blame him for not doing something about it.

Raph

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
The war on terrorism is BS. It's only giving terrorists more reasons to hate this country

I think that is a important point poiaholic22. I suppose my sentiment has always been, why war? And I’m none too happy, because I don’t think it will be over in a few days as has been indicated by Blair and Bush. I think it will probably escalate into a huge catastrophe, perhaps even a world war. People are already talking about another Hiroshima. Even more worrying, was a report I saw on the news Sat night. It was probably erroneous, but they said the Nth Korea would have 10 nuclear warheads ready for use in March

Conspiracy theories Ray? I admire you loyalty, but think you should take off those “rose coloured glasses” occasionally. Watergate, Contragate and all the other gates suggest the governments are not always as truthful, as they would have us believe. And yeah, watch the markets go up after the invasion.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
Honestly, the only thing that will probably go up is Wal*Mart, Smith & Westen/Glock/Colt/Berreta/Barrett, companies that sell bullet proof vests and gasmasks.

I doubt that there is going to be that many people buying houses and cars if fighting does break out.


Stone, you honestly believe that FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen?
If you are worried about 10 nukes in N. Korea then your crazy. N. Korea does not have the ability to reach outside of Asia.

I am worried because I am all of 350 miles (approx 500km) from the DMZ.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
While we're on the subject of the impending war, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents, although after typing all this, it's more like a buck-fifty...So: WARNING, LONG POST AHEAD...

I'm against war for any reason, I've made that clear in the past. Even a cause such as 'self defense' is a stretch for me to take up arms and kill someone else. But a lot of times, I find the people at war with each other never really see the 'enemy' for who they are, only the politics they represent. It's easy to kill someone who is a 'faceless opponent.'
I came across the following article on The AP wire. I felt it might help to put a face on an entire country of people we're on the brink of invading. Maybe those few who are in favor of armed conflict will at least think twice before sounding the charge...Here it is:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - I walked alone in Baghdad long after dark Thursday.
I have blondish hair, blue eyes and I'm especially pale during the winter months. When I passed under the street lights to cross the road, the turning traffic slowed to let me pass.
I browsed alone among thousands of Iraqis on Friday at a book fair. A weekly event on Al-Mutanabi street, it could have been a bazzar on any of the avenues in lower Manhattan or downtown Cairo.
In the clutch of shoppers and sellers, I couldn't avoid brushing up against people my country is ready to invade. I'd bump into them and nod my apologies. They'd nod back, often smiling.
I sat in a tearoom on the far edge of the book fair. It's thinly cusioned benches were so choked with customers that just to sit I had to wedge between two Iraqi men larger than me. Our friendly conversation was like grinding gears. Their English was broken, and my Arabic non-existant.
As I navigated the enemy's terrain, only one Iraqi man laid a hand on me. The incident occurred on Al-Mutanabi street as I squeezed my way through the Arab masses to leave. He was middle-aged and wore a tweed jacket and neatly-trimmed beard. I jerked reflexively when I felt his hand on my shoulder.
"The zipper, the zipper," he said in English, without smiling.
I looked confused.
"The zipper of your bag," he said.
My satchel had come halfway unzipped. Any deft pick-pocket could have snatched my 34,500 Iraqi dinars. Of course, since the US-led sanctions on Iraq began 12 years ago, the value of my stack of cash has deflated considerably. What was worth tens of thousands of US dollars in the 1980's is worth about $16 today.
Meanwhile the UN oil-for-food program the White House hails as a humnaitarian fix to the consequences of the economic embargo provides less than $200 annually for each Iraqi in food, medicine, infrrastructure and such. Although Iraq can sell the all the oil it desires, the money is doled out by the UN - recalling parents rewarding children with an allowance. Saddam's many palaces are built on oil sold on the black market.
The average income here is roughly $3 a month and Iraq's middle class is decimated. Many civil servants and teachers work 2 or 3 jobs. Mothers are barely putting food on the table for their children. Fathers have been selling - literally - the kitchen sink.
Since arriving in Iraq this week, I have been served hot tea numerous times by an emaciated, reed of a man who used to be a ballet dancer. I was ferried from Amman, Jordan to Baghdad by a civil engineer who can earn more in an SUV than he can in an office. These are people who a scraping out a living on one-tenth of their previous incomes. Imagine doing that in our own economy.
But none of that is why I hesitated when an Iraqi man selling an out-dated English-language textbooks asked the question I dread when travelling in the Middle East.
"What nationality?" he asked.
I nodded and said nothing, hoping he would think I didn't understand his thick accent.
"What nationality?" he asked twice more, polite, but insistant.
I wanted to say Canadian, or fake an Irish accent. I put a hand over my heart, a gesture of friendship and apology, and gave the abbreviated truth.
"America," I blurted. "I'm from America."
The man seemed to detect my anxiety. He smiled broadly.
"Very good," he said kindly, an Iraqi, trying to ease my discomfort.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

Posted: 2nd Feb 2003
I certainly hope you are right Ray. I’m not sure about Peal Harbour being allowed to happen, but it has been suggested, on more than one occasion, that they could have issued a warning. To be honest I’m not sure. History suggests that the market will go up though. Funny that you mention house prices, apparently housing prices are on the increase in Baghdad (it was on the TV last night, true). I really hope this is settled, but it seems unlikely. Keep safe.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Posted: 3rd Feb 2003
This is a hard one.

I feel torn between cynism, especially about the finances of it and the oil, and fear, which news report can I trust to tell the truth and I don't want anyone to die, and something else I'm not sure what to call.

There are a couple of questions I would like to ask. Im an Aussie, we love to travel, we believe in the little guy, that everyone should have a fair go. We were a part of the two world wars, Vietnam, the gulf war, and we had a team in Afganistan involved in the search for Osama, etc. If this war goes ahead we will most likely be involved.

We will get invloved, because we are passionate about everyone having a fair go - the people of Iraq should be able to choose their own leader, because Saddam shouldn't have weapons of mass destruction - I think his history proves he probably can't be trusted. We'll go because we give a stuff about other people of other nationalities around the world.

Which brings me to my question: What is your motivation for going?

Now, please don't missunderstand me, I like Americans, but they have a very centralised way of looking at things, which scares me, an example, and Im not trying to pick on people in any way here, just trying to understand. NothingsPerfect said that missiles sent from Iraq wouldn't make it to America, that it wouldn't make it past Europe. Does that make it ok for Saddam to still have them, that he could bomb Europe?? Fundameltalist muslims think the same way about Europians as they do about Americans! Trust me!

Also, Blakstar, you said that Al Qaeda was set up to attack America. Not true. Al Qaeda has been working in Indonesia for a very long time. In the year 2000 six thousand Indonesians were killed by Al Qaeda and allied groups every day! Six thousand! A day! AQ trained troups are working in Northern Africa, Israel and throughout the world, their mission is not just to hurt America.

I am not trying to offend Americans, and I know that people who have posted on this site are not in a position in government to make changes, but this is what scares me the most..... That America has more weapons of mass destruction than anyother country in the world - and won't dissarm them. That George Bush often calls America the peace keepers of the world, but it seems lately that they only get involved if it benefits or affects them personally. And that the people of America don't seem to know what is happening in other countries - because on the news, its all about America.

So in 50 years time, if you end up with a power hungry leader - who will protect you and the rest of the world from your own government?

Posted: 3rd Feb 2003
Bush is starting a war for personal gain (Oil), which is a grave misuse of his countries (and and his allies) Armed Forces. I think Bush is a Red Necked Hick version of Saddam, I can picture him sitting in a old rocking chair with a shotgun across his lap. Feb. 15/03 is International Day of Opposition to War Against Iraq. There will be peace demonstrations in cities around the world. Find out about the one in your city and get involved.

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

Posted: 3rd Feb 2003
If you asked me the definition of power, I would reply, "Power, is having the ability to kill someone and letting them live."

Prometheus, a very interesting story. For Bush and the other fat cats the enimy is Saddam, that is the face that they see. Saddam will never fight, nor will Bush or anyone else that eats at his table. For me, the enimy is very real, though his face changes all the time.

Stone, the only warning that anybody had was a large formation of planes that were mistaken for B52s. Even if they would have known, you cant just start a ship moving by turning a key. Let alone a whole fleet!


Jimba, there are no easy answers here. This is something that must be played out by ear.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"