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Page: 12
Salinger


member
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 382
Posted:1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?
A: 6%

2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?
A: 50%

3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves?
A: Saudi Arabia

4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves?
A: Iraq

5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?
A: $900+ billion

6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.?
A: 50%

7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials
of life to everyone in the world, according the UN?
A: 10% (that's about$40 billion, the amount of funding initially
requested
to
fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II?
A: 86 million

9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?
A: Since the early 1980's.

10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on their
own?
A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government,
along with Britain and private corporations.

11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare
against Iran?
A: No

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish
town of Halabja in 1988?
A: 5,000

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?
A:0

14. Q: How many gallons of agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?
A: 17million.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th
terrorist attack?
A: No

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf
War?
A: 35,000

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the
western
forces during the Gulf War ?
A: 0

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S.
tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait
after theGulf War?
A: 40 tons

20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in
Iraq
between 1991 and 1994?
A: 700%

21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had
destroyed in 1991?
A: 80%

22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for
anything other than deterrence and self defense?
A: No

23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10
years ago?
A: No

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event
of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?
A: 10,000

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children?
A:Over 50%

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?
A: 11years

27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998
and
September 1999?
A: No

28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between
December 1998 and September 1999?
A: 20 million

29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing
strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?
A: 12 years

30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000
births)?
A: 38

31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per
1,000
births)?
A: 131 (that's an increase of345%)

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a
result of UN sanctions?
A: 1.5 million

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to
sanctions since 1997?
A: 750,000

34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?
A:No

35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?
A:300

36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems?
A:5

37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party
HQ?
A: Yes

38. Q: Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed
to a level unprecedented in modern history."
A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.

39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons
of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have
discovered
and dismantled?
A: 90%

40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in ?
A:Yes

41. Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?
A: Over 65

42. Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972
and 1990?
A: 30+

44. Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?
A: 8

45. Q:How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?
A: 0

46. Q: How many nuclear warheads has US got?
A: over 10,000

47. Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?
A: the US

48. Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?
A: Over 400

50. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about
things that matter"?
A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr


make you're own interpretations of these facts...


Salinger


A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Well said.

Peace


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Yeah, i agree, well said.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Aalathea
GOLD Member since Oct 2002

member
Location: Massachusetts, US

Total posts: 80
Posted:well, as a history major its my job to play devil's advocate and question the validity of those statements.
i'm pretty sure that #36 is wrong. everything i've heard suggests that saddam has never fully complied with these things. i don't consider myself a particularly well informed individual though, so i'm not trying to argue. i just want to point out that we should all be wary of where we get information from.
personally nothing surprised me, but i'm very quick to assume my own country (the government at least) is the ultimate evil. mostly becasue i've been given little reason to think otherwise.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: 17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the
western
forces during the Gulf War ?
A: 0
Gulf War Facts

Here is an itemized list of casualties among the coalition forces during the campaign. Could you please cite a reference for these "facts" you're presenting? Or is this just an excerpt from some chain letter you received?


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:"18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S.
tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000"

For this piece of filth alone I couldn't give a rat's fat, boil infested hind-end about anything else you've said.

My father commanded tanks in the Gulf and that you dare to acusse him of burying retreating troops alive is so disgustingly beyond the pale that, given the chance, you would likely recieve a broken nose/chin were you to utter this load of bull in front of me.

I am normally a very peaceful person, but presenting such complete and utter bulls--t as a fact and in the process acussing my father of being- at the very least- complicit in the cold blooded mass murder of retreating troops (given his position there is no way this could have possibly happened without his knowledge) is more than enough to warrant a solid punch in the face (if not a lot more than that).

Not once has this sort of allegation been brought to light, and now all of a sudden you've got this list of "facts".

And BTW, Dio's right, 140 some odd coallition troops died in the Gulf and while a good number of those were from friendly fire quite a few died at the hands of the Iraqis. While we overwhelm them, America is not so much "the bully" taht it can go to war and not lose anyone. I wonder what the families of those who died would have to say to these facts of yours.

This list is a joke, and a VERY bad one at that.

[ 25. March 2003, 12:04: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]


No one knows me like I do.

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Posted:
I'm with Dio and Dai on this one...although I'm not going to waste time trying to back up my opinions with valid facts...because frankly, you hippie protestors don't listen to reason. No amount of fact in the world could ever convince you that there is EVER reason for war or violence, and while I respect your ultimate goal...it's simply unrealistic. Human beings exist through conflict alone, and the absence of conflict is, in itself, a conflict...because without something to protest or bitch about, your entire culture is meaningless. You're a bunch of uneducated, pot-smoking sandal-jockies who need haircuts and showers. Don't like my blatent generalization and insults?...well, it pales in comparison to some of the things you write about Bush on your signs, now doesn't it. I mean...I burn incense...and wear hawaiin shirts just like the next guy...but your lifestyle is simply an excuse to run from the the obstacles in life that you can't handle. In closing...I'd personally like to be locked in a cage with Saddam so I could rip out his lungs with my bare hands...and then I'd walk the streets and slap all you hippies across the face with them. Love it or leave it. 'Nuff said.

[ 25. March 2003, 12:28: Message edited by: edro_donwaldo ]


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Mistress Aurora


Mistress Aurora

Hot Schtuff
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX

Total posts: 1032
Posted:This list is certaintly not a "fact" list.

quote: 18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S.
tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000
Ahem...Excuse me for getting alil pissed about that one, but NEVER, NEVER have I heard of such a horrible thing happening!I had an uncle who ran tanks in the Gulf War.I could never in my wildest imagination EVER seeing him or ANYBODY else for that matter committing such an awful and ugly act against ANY human being from ANY country!

I believe you should research a few of those before putting them on HOP and leading people into believing such utter bulls**t.



RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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Takashi


member


Total posts: 1
Posted:The fact that you would copy and paste from a site that has no way to back up their claims shows how much of an idiot you are.

It has also come to my attention that this has also came from a chain e-mail making it have no validity at all.

[ 25. March 2003, 14:47: Message edited by: Takashi ]


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Salinger


member
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 382
Posted:In response to a lot of the comments given here I'd like to say a few things.

Firstly, I will admit that I should have paid more attention to the sourcing of this email I received, and that some of the information may well be erronereous and in some cases, insulting to American's, especially in the tense climate the country is experiencing. However, there are indeed facts contained within that set of Q & A which cannot be disreputed, and the US government certainly isn't all innocent and coy, they are a menace to global peace, no other modern developed nation has caused so much damage for the sake of its own short term economic well being...we all know well enough about the Kyoto treaty, as one of many examples. (A country whichamounts for 4% of the global population is creating 25% of the global pollution).

DaiTenshi: Your aggressive "hit now think later" attitude is a mirror to the mentality which has got your country in so much conflict in the past. I did not mean to take things on a personal level, but if you must do so be aware of two things. One, the US were responsible for more British deaths than the Iraqi's in the first gluf war, by a long margin and indeed I knew one of those lost in that conflict. Secondly, I do not appreciate your threatening words, if you have serious issues with me private message me and we can discuss it diplomatically. To tell me that if I said these words to you would result in me getting hurt though is ridiculous, although I have studied karate for over 15 years and I am very competently trained, I would never resport to violence as words can always resolve matters more effectively. But remember this, not all us 'hippies' will be knocked over by a flower. Karate is about discipline and self control and most importantly self defense, something you and your government should exercise more often.

edro: I certainly pity you, your perspective of the World is saddening indeed, and if you believe that confict, murder, torture come hand in hand with humanity you are very mistaken. Your ideolody is descendent to the kind of people who have enacted hideous autrocities all over the World, and if that is going to be your contribution then I am sickened and saddened for the future. And for the record, I do smoke pot and wear sandals, but I'm also a member of mensa with an IQ of 158...don't be so quick to judge people, it's that steroetyping which reinforces your own ignorance.

What you both don't understand is that this isn't about hippies against capitalists, one type against another, there are people of all walks of life who feel differing opinions to their counterparts, and that is freedom of expression.

In retrospect, I do wish I had read through this list of q & a's, and edited it to a standard of sourceable, arguable evidence, and I will make every effort to do this in the future. A few lies within have ruined the purpose of a larger group of facts, and I accept the blame for that.

Let's all hope that as few people as possible, on any side of this conflict, come to any harm.

Peace.



A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

Delete

Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:I think that's what lies at the heart of this whole debate: credibility. People get whipped up into a frenzy and begin to believe myths and urban legends that were at one point just rumors casually tossed around, simply because they fit into their agenda. This happens on both the pro-and-anti-war sides, I'm noticing. I think this thread would be a good starting point for a definitive list of justified sources of information, both pro and anti, as well as debunking myths and urban legends, since no threads have really attempted to do this objectively yet.

I do share DaiTenshi's sentiment about the misrepresentation of these facts... what's worse is some people won't do their homework to verify what has been said and will instead pass them on to others like in this thread. As the debate heats up, the arguments get more and more outlandish, but people believe because they want to dig in and maintain their views at all costs. This is when we start seeing the stereotypes and generalizations ("war-mongers" vs "pot smoking sandal jockies") arise, and then the fightin' starts.

We all have to take special care with what we post here because we're not just right or wrong, we're also influencing (justifying, challenging, or changing) the opinions of everyone who reads our posts.



What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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holly


member
Location: bristol,uk

Total posts: 61
Posted:Dio, Daitenshi,edro_donwaldo, Mistress Aurora and Takashi.

WELL SAID MY FRIENDS, WELL SAID. (well actually maybe alittle rude, but still...!)


a few points/questions

quote: no other modern developed nation has caused so much damage for the sake of its own short term economic well being hmm. i know the US has started/been involved in alot of other wars. ie vietnam. did they Economicallly gain from it? i thought wars were pretty darn expensive myself but this could be right. anyone got any ideas or facts? ie possible economic gains from vietnam, or any other of the us wars? could be stupid an obvious but i dont know. i didnt think vietnam had much oil (!?)

salinger, i think it is wrong to bring to light the failures of the clinton/ bush handling of the Kyoto protocol. it re affirms my beleifs that this anti war thing is really abit of an anti bush(hippy v capitalist as you put it) thing because although i stronly disagree with the withdrawl from kyoto, i know i cant use that as an arguement in a war debate.

anyway, correct me if i am wrong people.

this is fairly heated.... actually quite scary. wouldnt want to meet some of you down a dark alley at night........


Never doubt that a small group of crusties, activists, and politicos can change the world... in fact, it's the only thing that ever does ;-)

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lord ender


member
Location: AMERICA

Total posts: 6
Posted:First Salinger said
"Firstly, I will admit that I should have paid more attention to the sourcing of this email I received, and that some of the information may well be erronereous and in some cases, insulting to American's, especially in the tense climate the country is experiencing."

The main point here is you tried to pass off lies hidden between some truths as the truth. That is what every one is mad about. Second, Those lies would be insulting to anyone who lived in the county that was the target of such blatent propaganda. It dosn't even matter what the current social and political climate is those my friend are FIGHTING WORDS so it you are going to utter them get ready for the swing.


Violence is the last resort of the incompetent. Doesn't mean it's not damn effective sometimes.

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Salinger:

DaiTenshi: Your aggressive "hit now think later" attitude is a mirror to the mentality which has got your country in so much conflict in the past. I did not mean to take things on a personal level, but if you must do so be aware of two things. One, the US were responsible for more British deaths than the Iraqi's in the first gluf war, by a long margin and indeed I knew one of those lost in that conflict. Secondly, I do not appreciate your threatening words, if you have serious issues with me private message me and we can discuss it diplomatically. To tell me that if I said these words to you would result in me getting hurt though is ridiculous, although I have studied karate for over 15 years and I am very competently trained, I would never resport to violence as words can always resolve matters more effectively. But remember this, not all us 'hippies' will be knocked over by a flower. Karate is about discipline and self control and most importantly self defense, something you and your government should exercise more often.

Actually I did think first, Salinger. Careful, deep, and thorough consideration went into my decision to tell you that, as Ender said, "them's fight'n words". As for your 15 years of karate, go watch the first few UFCs and see how afraid an MMA competitor is of karate, pay close attention though, they're damn short fights ^_^.

As for "not meaning to take things on a personal level".... well that's what happens when you present such a lie as the truth. The fact that two people agreed with you right off the bat did nothing to sate my anger. Sticks and stones and all.....

As you posted these "facts" publicly this became a public issue. That people agreed to a post that basically says my father and Mistress Aurora's uncle are both mass murders makes it a public insult. Whether you meant it or not, that's what happened. Yell "c--t rag, c-m guzzling whore" into a women's lib meeting and- whether you meant it or not- you're going to insult someone and they are not going to care in the least whether you meant it or not, especially if some wise guy pipes up with "yeah man, you kick ass!" Private messages are also much less entertaining.

Finally, in regards to my government having a "shoot first" attitude or not exercising enough restraint, we waited this long, if we had no restraint this war would've gone down.... hmmm, let's see- well over a year ago. I am not defending this amdinistration, I feel they have made many diplomatic mistakes, but finally getting rid of Hussein is not one of them. Leaving a dictator in power- a man who murders his citizens freely and openly- for the sake of maintaining the status quo (aka, protestors' version of peace) is no international justice; last I checked, the UN was supposed to uphold that (I rather wish they would).

BTW, Hussein was having a great time giving "international law" the run around; without the threat of punishment, the law is next to nothing. No point saying "don't do this" if you don't bother doing something about it after they've spat on your law. Unfortunately, to get to this guy we have to go through an army that has gone out of its way to surround its installations and facilities with civilians. I grew up on army bases, really not that hard to keep civies far from the bombable stuff..... and yet somehow Iraqi city planners just don't understand that if you put a school next to a armory.... something bad will happen during a war.

Some less than historically aware folks have gone out of their way to say "but you gave it to them in the first place" (hey look! it's even up there), that we did, but at the time Iran was a big old cesspool of terrorism and Saddam didn't necessarily seem like the greater of two evils. Plus there was that whole USSR thing that everyone was worried about (BTW Communism only works on a small community level , if even that). Point is, different world, everything has consequences, this is one of them.... all the more reason for us to fix the problem.

Anywho, onto some stuff you said that was WAY more fun ^___^


edro: I certainly pity you, your perspective of the World is saddening indeed, and if you believe that confict, murder, torture come hand in hand with humanity you are very mistaken. Your ideolody is descendent to the kind of people who have enacted hideous autrocities all over the World, and if that is going to be your contribution then I am sickened and saddened for the future. And for the record, I do smoke pot and wear sandals, but I'm also a member of mensa with an IQ of 158...don't be so quick to judge people, it's that steroetyping which reinforces your own ignorance.
Mensa.... wow, so you sit around and play logic games. IQ of 158, damn it's almost like you pulled out the ruler and said "oh yeah, Edro, my d--k's THIS big!" Plus, your ability to play brain teasers really has zero bearing on whether or not you understand the world

The problem with rising above our history- giving up violence- is that whoever does it first is gonna end up with a bullet in the head. It's all well and good to say "turn the other cheek" when you're not the one starring at the guy wearing brass knuckles.

It's gonna be a LONG time before this species gives up on violence. But hey, so long as you live in a society protected by the largest military you'll be perfectly free to sit back and let other people die to protect your borders and fight your criminals! Isn't that just peaceful?

Reality.

[ 26. March 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: DaiTenshi ]


No one knows me like I do.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Didn't read through the whole thing at first, so i'll give some apologies. However, there are some pretty important true things that are being overlooked, and i for one would like to see an edited list...

btw, can i make a point here? anyone who says something like "you hippies" in response to a person they don't know well and then goes off on a rant has no credibility. Ever.

DaiTenshi, there is never a case where someone is important enough not to know what happened, the military doesn't work that way. I personally have no idea if that is true or not, but you can't assume just because your parents were in a war that something didn't happen. Tons of things go on in war that the rest of the military doesn't know about, and furthermore if someone was involved in something like that they would probably never admit it, or never want to.

And, ah, mistress aurora? things like this happen all through human history. mebbe it didn't happen in iraq... even it's somewhat unlikley, given the amount of modern day media coverage. but there's a lot of wars and a lot of coutries where worse things happen. I mean... a peace protester in Israel got run over by a tank. Think about China in 1989. I havn't gone back very far yet, and these are civilians, and these things made the news... there's plenty of things that don't.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Ahh DaiTenshi? being in america and being an american doesn't nesc. make you safe. in fact, it's gonna make quite a few people's lives more dangerous as time goes on. and further more, when's the last time Iraq attacked us? I mean, if ur gonna use that arguement, how about saudia arabia? at least they did something to us.

p.s., i think the US still has a pretty high homicide rate.... real safe, huh? I mean, for our standard of living and all....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Delete

Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Lately this is reminding me of a story I heard in my old Regional Geography class.

A Serbian-descended woman was invited in as a guest speaker to discuss the religious backgrounds of that region. She discussed in depth the basic tenets and traditions of the religions, the territories, and the cultures of each. For example, all of these population groups or nationalities speak languages that are closely related to one another and which can generally be understood by other Slav speakers. The Serbian and Croatian language are so close that they often referred to as a single language called " Serbo-Croat."

It was a very objective and informative lecture, and the class was very interested in what she had to say. One student was called on to ask a question at the end of the lecture.

What he asked (I don't recall word for word) basically boiled down to "These groups are very similar in a lot of ways. The differences that divide them (religion, culture and alphabet) are small and yet they insist on trying to kill each other. Why do they fight over such small, petty differences?"

In response to his question, this intelligent, well-spoken and presumably objective woman got that insane look in her eyes, poked a finger on him and asked him point-blank "Do you know that every Croatian boy is given a knife at birth that he keeps under his pillow so he can use it to slit the throat of a Serbian?!"

Naturally, the student was taken aback by this vehement display of ignorance and deep-rooted sentiment. Nothing so illogical could possibly be true, and yet this well-educated woman would have staked her life on the validity of the assumption.

My point to all of this, is that when you take a message too far it eventually overwhelms you to the point where you'll believe any idle rumor that gets tossed your way, so long as it agrees with your assumptions. More and more outlandish claims are appearing on the boards here, and I'm worried who's taking them at face value.

What some friends here also need to realize is that when their statements get debunked, it discredits them and the movement they stand behind. TLike it or not, they are seen as representatives of their agenda, and nobody wants to believe in the group if its figurehead is an idiot.

I'm in favor of the Iraq war, but I do want to see the peace group maintain as much credibility as possible because I agree with what they stand for, and we do need them as a voice of alternate opinion in the world to, at the very least, get us to look at the other side of an issue before deciding on a course of action to follow.



What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Todays Papers:

Money allocated to rebuilding Iraq 1.7 billion
Money allocated for humanitarian aid in Iraq 750million
Money allocated for Israel

10 billion

Please don't attack one another guys - remember whether you are pro/anti war at the end of the day we are all pro-peace. Looks like somebody has been posting under a false name. Maybe I'm wrong but looking suspicious!


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Salinger


member
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 382
Posted:This thread should maybe be removed as it's not looking like it's going anywhere constructive, and that's largely my fault for starting it.

However, I do have to rise up to one of the little comments from DaiTenshi about his Ultimate Fighting Competition because I am really amused by this and any excuse to direct this thread slightly more light hearted I'll take!

Are you one of these ultimate fighters Dai? No is the short answer. I just think it's pretty funny and a little pathetic to only be able to come back to a simple statement about my karate skills with a "you wouldn't last 5 minutes against the guys on my TV!" I probably wouldn't, so what?
Back in the days when all the ultimate fighting was underground and very illegal, a guy my instructor knew won the Australian Open in 1993 championship by biting into the base of the spine of his opponent so savagely this guy was paralysed and will never walk again. Do you think this guy is cool? Do you think it's smart to fight and hurt people? It's ****ing pathetic to be honest (excuse my French, oops I mean my Freedom ) and if that's what you get your kicks from my pity to you as always.


Now in case any twang of the ol' dry English wit hasn't made itself apparent above let it be known here...I'm not looking for a rukus, but I do quite like the idea of some funny debating with you and your little minions...

Peace


A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

Delete

Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Who's the little minion?!

Seriously... I've done a good deal of moderating my speech towards both sides of the issue and do consider both viewpoints valid, without stooping to name-calling or such... I'm more a "referee" then a minion.... hehe

DaiTenshi does actually practice in the school's submission fighting/Mixed Martial Arts program here, and they serve to train Ultimate Fighting Championship competitors... he's also a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do... so he does have some credibility in that regard.

I did have one minor correction I'd like to make before I go though...
quote: if ur gonna use that arguement, how about saudia arabia? at least they did something to us When and what did Saudi Arabia do to us, Kyri? I don't think I'm that out of the loop... hehe


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Salinger


member
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 382
Posted:Now when I read this thread I smile rather than feel angry, good old HOP...let's keep it light shall we!

A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:"The stronger man knows it is more important to forgive than it is to fight"


Props to Dio for remaining level-headed while everyone else allows anger to cloud their judgement.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


More stereotyping, yes I know. But this thread needs humor


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Salinger


member
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 382
Posted:

I love it!


A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:btw If you read the first post carefully, several of those "facts" are actually nothing but opinions and like all opinions are only true from a certain point of view, if at all. anyways, here are some realy facts to augment this discution

#13 the gov might not have but the media here DID

#19 mostly from bullets

#22 what about the money saddam gives to the families of suicide bombers? doesn' that show support for terrorism, and if so, wouldn't he be willing to help terrorists in other way (like arming them)?

#25 since iraq's population is 50% children, statisticaly speaking, 50% civilian casulties WOULD be children. But, did you read about the iraqi children that were just released from prison? (they would join the youth baath party 5 years ago)

#34 an #40 are self contratictory

forgot to mention the 200,000 kurds that Chemical Ali killed (he claims it was "only" 100,000 kurds)


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Mistress Aurora


Mistress Aurora

Hot Schtuff
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX

Total posts: 1032
Posted:quote: And, ah, mistress aurora? things like this happen all through human history. mebbe it didn't happen in iraq... even it's somewhat unlikley, given the amount of modern day media coverage. but there's a lot of wars and a lot of coutries where worse things happen. I mean... a peace protester in Israel got run over by a tank. Think about China in 1989. I havn't gone back very far yet, and these are civilians, and these things made the news... there's plenty of things that don't.
Kyrian dear,this is probably true, but this kind of stuff happens in many countries.Civilians get caught up in the war and get killed...This is an unfortunate thing, but it does happen.It's kinda hard not to have civilian casualties in a war.The part of the peace protestor getting run over by a tank in Israel I've not heard about.So I can't really comment on that.Yes stuff like this may happen and not be reported but that's war.I still can't believe that our troops would purposely run over a civilian with anything.I don't remember hearing anything like that in Vietnam from my dad.

Of course do remember that the other people you are fighting may also be doing stuff like this and so you can't point fingers and say the US did this! They are evil and mean!This also depends on whether or not it is an enemy who is firing at you and wont move and you having no choice but to run him over, or somebody being an ass and purposely running over people for kicks.This would highly be unlikely seeing how they would get in trouble by higher ranks.

If I was on a tank and an enemy was firing at me or trying to destroy both me and the tank I will shoot back. If the enemy deliberately put himself in the path of my tank and played chicken I would give him a chance to run or I would move out of the way,but if he purposely got in my way again, then I would run him smooth over.I look at it this I will protect myself if threatened but I will not purposely target and run over people for fun.That is inhumane.



RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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Bubble King


member
Location: Abroad

Total posts: 13
Posted:Its certainly been an emotional one reading all of the posts but I would like to add my thoughts for the record.

1. If you look up 'How I would expect a redneck to talk to me' it would refer me back to some of the above. If you are pro-war then please try to sound a little less grrrrr! and a little more like someone who can reason with other human beings without scaring them. It would make for a discussion than a rant.

2. If you think that most military people have the will to question their orders and act altruistically in the middle of a war then you are deluding yourself. Of course some do (2 UK servicemen have been sent home under military guard for refusing to fight in Iraq) and they should be applauded. However, the whole point of armies is to be the armed might of the state and they are selected and trained to say "Yes Sir!" to orders not question them. If they start this is called mutiny and can lead to you being shot or put in prison. Military prisons are not nice places. Pacifists do not join armies generally while those who fantasise about guns and dying for their country do.

3. To all those who say "My uncle/ Dad/ Brother etc wouldn't ....." I say that every atrocity has to have someone pulling the trigger and they are always someones dad/brother etc. Do you think that the Mai Lai soldiers relatives thought it could never be their ones who were responsible? Before I get replies of the 'I'm going to kill you for saying my uncle is a killer', my great great uncle was a tank driver in WW1 and tanks kill people in horrible ways. The ultimate responsibility has to lie not with the poor grunt who fires the shots and gets shot but with the politicians who order the war in the first place. To lose sight of who is ultimately responsible means they can carry on doing more of the same and we keep squabbling between us. Its always the working class who suffers most and has the least say.

4. Please stop trying to justify this war for oil in terms of dictator clearance. Bush and Blair are not interested in bringing democracy or ridding the world of nasty despots. This should be fairly obvious but if it is not then why are the Pakistani military dictator, the Saudi Arabian royal family, the Kuwaiti royal family etc not only not threatened by the US but supported and given military aid?


Sorry if it sounds like a plea for some thinking and reason but I fear that this is sorely lacking in some places and I like to think that anyone on this site would be good to talk to without thinking I was talking to a crazy person. As for a lighter note - I am waiting for the nomination of Blair and Bush for the Nobel Peace prize for their efforts to bring peace to the middle east. If Kissinger can get one then anything is possible.


Capitalism Kills - Kill Capitalism

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:1.) Please look above and you'll see I have been nothing but diplomatic in this thread. However, it's a two-way street, and I would also appreciate the other camp to exercise some discretion and tact when they post. Otherwise I will look up and say "how would I expect an idealistic hippy to talk to me." Your labeling of the pro-war groups as "redneck" illustrates your disregard for the intelligence or validity of statements by that group, and establishes that you are unwilling to listen to what they might have to say.

2.) Soldiers have been allowed to resign when they disagree with the reasons behind their service. They have to file a formal appeal to do so, and justify their concerns, but they are allowed to quit if they want. The military won't force someone to stay in a position if they don't want to be there, because it poses a risk to their fellow soldiers if they aren't going to pick up their end of the workload. If you'll examine the current situation closely, the only soldiers who are getting imprisoned or shot for refusal to follow orders are on the other side. Please don't disgrace our military by accusing them of this sort of barbarism.

One such soldier has "altruistically acted in the middle of this war," as you say, but it involved tossing a few live grenades into the tents of his fellow soldiers and injuring or killing something like 14 people. Do you applaud this one for his civil disobedience?

Our soldiers are also not "fantasizing about guns and dying for their country," as you so eloquently stated it. Everyone has their own reasons for joining the military, and those seldom include a desire to kill people.

3.) If you'll look above, the references to relatives in the military dealt with a specific accusation in the original first post, which was absolutely untrue and would have been a case of human rights violations that would earn that military division a royal international smackdown. No action such as burying retreating soldiers alive would be allowed in the US military (a military that FOLLOWS the codes of conduct in a war) and any offending soldiers even attempting such a despicable action would have been court-marshalled. If an order like that had come down from the top, it would have stirred up an insane international incident and undoubtedly gotten the president at the time impeached for human rights violations.

Soldiers ARE allowed to go against orders in cases where the commanding officer is deliberately breaching the code of conduct. Someone would undoubtedly speak up if an order was given like the one mentioned above, and they would be justified and later commended for stopping that insanity.

4.) Please stop trying to discredit this war, which was a last resort and was the result of Hussein's repeated disregard for international law, as a war for oil.

quote: why are the Pakistani military dictator, the Saudi Arabian royal family, the Kuwaiti royal family etc not only not threatened by the US but supported and given military aid Clarify that statement, and include references.

You ask for "thinking and reason" and I have been both thoughtful and reasonable throughout this entire discussion. I have gone out of my way here to encourage people to post only verifiable facts and to try and shed light on any glaring errors present. If you'll also notice, I've rebuked people on the pro-war side for passing on facts without proper justification, so I'm not simply bashing and discrediting the other viewpoint. Before you accuse either side of not demonstrating a willingness to debate and listen openly, please first make sure you have your ears and mind open.

Also, you picked a downright lousy thread to debate rationality in posting

[ 10. April 2003, 05:14: Message edited by: Dio ]


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Mistress Aurora:

The part of the peace protestor getting run over by a tank in Israel I've not heard about.So I can't really comment on that.
What you don't know,now you know.

Not terribly relevant anymore but it kinda speaks about the character of the Israeli Army.



Dio you da man.I may not agree with you on everything but I commend you for not flying off the handle like so many others.


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Mistress Aurora


Mistress Aurora

Hot Schtuff
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX

Total posts: 1032
Posted:Thank you poiaholic anonymous

I would like to make a correction to a statement I had made in my above post.

quote: I still can't believe that our troops would purposely run over a civilian with anything.I don't remember hearing anything like that in Vietnam from my dad.
After making that statement Dai Tenshi told me of something similar happening in Vietnam.I would like to appologize for making that statement and not knowing all the facts regarding it.I wasn't lying about the part of not hearing it from my dad tho, because my dad tends to not tell us everything that happened because it tends to bring bad memories and he didn't agree with that war.As I do not agree with the reasons behind the Vietnam war.

My dad also suffers from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder and so I guess is one of the reasons he doesn't tell us everything he saw in the war.I remember him saying that war is bad and horrible and that he hoped that none of us kids ever had to go through it.It was one of the few times I actually witnessed hurt in my dads eyes.He said it was sad to see his friends die in front of him and be too afraid to sleep.War is bad. I'm not a pro-war person.I don't like war, yet I believe in some of the reasons behind this war. No matter what tho, I just want our troops to come home and other countries troops to come home safely and not be discriminated against for having to go over to Iraq and fight.

No matter where this thread or others go I just want you HoPpers out there to know I respect yalls oppinions.



RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Salinger:

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S.
tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000 I know this is a little late forthcoming and DaiTenshi and Mistress Aurora aren't around much anymore but the other day a guy I work with, who happens to be an ex-U.S. Marine, actually said that there is some truth to this claim.

He was telling us that this kind of thing was done to Iraqi soldiers hiding in trenches.

So while the number of casualties and the part about retreating may be off the mark there may be some truth to this idea.


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