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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:for future reference:



if you spin one poi, it goes round in a circle. this circle is 'flat'.

by that i mean that you could imagine a pane of glass going through the circle from top to bottom (and through your hand).

this imaginary pane of glass represents the planes we all talk aboot.



with your poi spinning vertically, if your planes are neat they (or if you prefer, this pane of glass) will meet the floor at 90deg.



spinning vertically there are two standard sets of planes:



the wallplane - which is spinning in front and behind you (like the mexican wave on the hop poi lessons).

face a wall - that's the wallplane.

or as someone told me once "the wallplane. its the one you juggle in, innit."



the wheel plane (not a standard name as far as i know but a damn good one i reckon hug eva hug ) - which is the standard orientation for weaves.

poi spin at your sides - think sitting in a car with the wheels at you side.





you are the -0- in the pictures below.

looking from above, the o is your head and the dashes are your shoulders.

this is purely to show which direction you are facing in relative to the planes of the toys (up or down, left or right).



the lines show the planes that you are spinning your toys in.



Code: WALLPLANE:



_________









-0-



_________









Code: WHEEL PLANE:







| |

| |

| -0- |

| |

| |







the third standard set of planes is the horizontal.

i tend to use ceiling plane or floor plane depending if i am feeling high or low that day.

others call it the lid plane.



the floor plane look at the corkscrew in the hop lessons.

when your poi are spinning like this (in a plane parrallel with the floor), you are spiining horizontally and hence, in the floor plane.

EDITED_BY: coleman (1081417940)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:yeah but Knox(ious) doesn't do crosses like regular folks. His aren't attached in the middle. he's a sneaky, cheaty show-off (with red spikes and long eye lashes).

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:de plane! de plane!




Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:sorry for that unhelpful post.

disclaimer: i have not read this thread


but planes are soooo important unless you want to look a mess(+) and i completely agree that you should be allowed to go outside of them


to follow that confusing statement.....


this is just a coontinuation of the dance/technical arguement; planes are generally obsessed about by those who go for the technical side of poi(not always, i refuse to get pulled up by one person(tom ) who says'i got technique but don't got planes(he can't spell that well tho)) and to cut a vastly long and potentially dull post short you can have both. planes are there to be broken when the time is right. like rules. and wrists.

love yas.


now spin more straightly.







Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:thanks cole , simian , bluecat and cantus

planes and crosses make no sense, and I think I like it that way


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Knoxious
.

Member Since: 25th Feb 2002
Total posts: 420
Posted:Hi y'all....
ok... I was tipped off about this one...I don't just do searches for when my name comes up! honest!...

so.... planes rah rah rah...anyone who knows me knows I am pretty bloody *self admittedly* anal about planes....not only for tech lovliness, but mainly so that when you move/dance/turn your transistions between moves will be fluid, easy and above all consistant (thus allowing you to have to think less about what's going on and ba ble to think more about where you want to go)....

so that's my wee rave on planes...

*my only amendment to an otherwise primo inttro to planes 101 by Cole is that I'd call "Wheel Planes" "Corridor Planes" instead...*

crosses....

I've seen a few different varitaions on crosses....

fixed.
Me never used a fixed cross (why bother when you can get it wth 2 held in the hand? ) ... but withg a pin in it it can

er...swivelled? Dan Pyroptix from Melbourne uses elastic hair ties to hold his together...this way when he chucks 'em up they split in the air and then spring back to shape when he catches them (or something along those lines...you get the idea?)
another guy called Brie form Byron uses a metal pin to link them. It's loose enough for him to let it spin until the wicks hit)...also a lovely tricky 'ting

or hand held...

now I do crosses in three ways...
1 (the most limiting in terms of ease of movement) is to hold both sticks in one hand.
2 is to hold a stick in each hand and have them moving at the same rate but a quater turn off being parrallel so that you achieve the illusion of the cross. ie (the buzzsaw)
3 is to finger spin the cross....but that's just the smartarse way of doing number 2.

To hold a stick in each hand gives a lot more scope of moves that are easier to figure out. It is much easier to stick to nice planes...

Yes...all is correct about having a one hand/fixed cross being a shlaaaaaag for it's almost gyroscopic inability to break planes....

but! there is a way to play in cross and keep yo' planes ...the more inventive stuff does require you to break planes....

REALLY fast (I'm in an internet cafe in Cologne)....

Backwards 2 beat with a cross
hold the cross so that your arm is like a 5th spoke(?). Bring the cross (and your arm) to the wall plane in front of your chest....rotate-from your elbow-down and out to the point when your can go on...THEN rotate the cross/your wrist until you get back to the point when your arm is the 5th spoke (usually one less turn that people think) then return to the starting point!

heh...simple eh?

ha ha erm....I can show easier than type so either see you a tthe EJC anyone?), later, or on the DVD!

i hope I've contributed something guys!

ps I've just nailed the Behind-The-Back-Waistrap-in-a Cross-with-Doubles!!! raaaaaaaaaaah!



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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:wow thanks knoxious, you have definately contributed backwards 2bt with a cross I'm playing with, feels very nice with double crosses

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:I think all poi tutorials should start like this....

Still being fairly new to this i spend almost all the time i'm not spinning both poi just spinning one (other hand w/spliff/sandwich/beer/whatever) and practising planes and switching between them one handed

and by now they're almost completely parallel and new tricks have come out of the process - slow plane changes can look very cool from the outside and make a nice gentle start to a spin

eg. start parallel at your sides (what's called wheel plane here) and move it slowly into butterfly - then right past it to parallel planes again but inside my arms, across the arms and carrying on

or starting butterfly then rotating one poi's plane to the horizontal

quite impossible until the circles you spin in are nigh-on completely flat and in perfect planes and you can adjust them smoothly - and in the end probably not all that hi-skill, but so useful for everything else that you gotta learn.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Taniwha
member
Location: Aotearoa
Member Since: 8th Apr 2003
Total posts: 138
Posted:Bump... *CRASH* oops "sorry"

Its all just smoke and mirrors

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Bump again!

Well this thread is old but i still hold my position.

Poi is not always about pleasing or performing for others. Its often fun just to go spin crazy stuff with no real direction or focus [as ud have noticed in my vids wink ] I love atoms even more now than when this tread began, only difference is i have alot more messed up moves to play with.

I do still agree that planes are important but i still think poi is about playing and trying new stuff. no matter what it looks like on the outside. Its how it feels inside the fire sphere to me, but each to their own.

I was just wondering if any of you have changed your opinion? And also if you think clubs have inspired you to perform planes more?

Because in maori poi, there are planes but there are also freestyle moves and not all moves are patterns. Which confuses me watching alot of people (from other countries) and they spin...strangly ...its like the planes are more important than the move, or the they are so focused on the pattern they spend no time on body movement and function.


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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:And while on topic, can someone plz explain why i MUST spin clean planes?

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:you don't *have* to spin clean planes mr dragon ubbrollsmile

clean planes are something i and many others are pretty anal about in our own spinning (eg. glass, bluecat, knoxious and lots of others) - most of us consider we don't have a move solid until we can perform it with clean planes and are then free to use deliberate body movements to enhance it.

i think specifically for performers, clean planes are a must.
i think that visually, clean planes are more far more pleasing, but that may just be me...

as for swinging clubs, it wasn't what initiated my love of clean planes - i think it was my natural choice to strive for this and the people i learnt from instilled those values in me.

Written by: taniwhadragon7

in maori poi, there are planes but there are also freestyle moves and not all moves are patterns. Which confuses me watching alot of people (from other countries) and they spin...strangly ...its like the planes are more important than the move, or the they are so focused on the pattern they spend no time on body movement and function.



for some (strange wink) people, it *is* more about the pattern than the body movement - the body movement is a function of the pattern rather then the other way round.
if you see what i mean.


and for tidyness' sake - for a demo of dave's cross techniques, as described above, look up ben-ja-men's video thread (in the video section) and go get 'knox doubles 2'.
clean double staff planes all over that video and double staff isolations to die for.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:I ubblove planes.

and hammers.

and screwdrivers.

But most of all, I ubblove chisels.

Having a clean plane is very important. Not only does it makes it smoother, but it also means you dont get nasty splinters. Remember to video (or infront of big mirrors), or get a friend to watch you planing so you can find out how dirty they are. Then go back and blow the dust off.

biggrin


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i'll plane you in a minute.

i don't know what that means but if you imagine me saying it in your mum's voice and it should lend it the threatening tone i was aiming for...

wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:is this a staff or a poi thread?

I like planes cos you can get things very flat with them. And getting things very flat is hard. You have to check then go back and readjust your plane and try again. Sometimes you even have to sharpen your plane. Or try a new plane to get it flat.

Before every session you should take apart your planes (they're quite simple mechanisms) and put them back together again, to make sure they aren't getting rusty anywhere.

And everybody knows hard things are harder to learn than easy things. And therefore, hard things are harder. (Substitute better for harder if you are a technical spinner.)

I may have taken UCOF's plane/plane pun too far. Should I post this? Oh well, too late.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:meg, after that staff thread you wrote, you could post random swearwords all over hop for the rest of your days and i'd still think you were the coolest person here biggrin

to answer your question, this is a spinning thread - it has everything to do with poi and staff spinning and little-to-nothing to do with joinery.

however, you are as anal about planes as i am i think so i have nothing to teach you apart from:
when using your plane, always employ a sturdy workbench or pair of vices to keep your object perpendicular to the floor and completely inanimate while you shave bits off it using long, slow, even strokes...
okay, this isn't even an extension of a pun any more, its just general woodwork advice so i'll quit while i'm confused enough to not care umm

so has anyone seen a dragon around today?

i think he's ignoring my posts... wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:probabl gone aqua-planing. or to the family planing clinic. or is offering (ahem)plane-tive cries about bad puns.

(oooh my i'm helpful today aren't i)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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mo-seph
mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Member Since: 24th Feb 2004
Total posts: 524
Posted:Planes are good. If you keep working on having your toys stuck to the walls of a glss box, then eventually you can wear white gloves and stick yourself inside an invisible glass box, and that's when you've truely reached the top. I hear you're also allowed to take invisible dogs for walks, but that may just be a rumour

monkeys ate my brain

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:what I really like about planes is that actually getting them flat is very hard. There is a natural tendency to curve down in the middle, like telephone wires, so that you have to practise plane on a crappy bit of wood, till you get it right then plane your actual wood, (and in a certain order of sides) and practically recalibrate your planing for each side of the wood.



Now taking invisible ferrets for a walk, WHILE you isolate yourself, that's skill.



Planing should always be with the grain. I think this is a lesson all spinners can relate to. <nods wisely, hiccups and falls asleep> hehe


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Written by:
so has anyone seen a dragon around today?

i think he's ignoring my posts...



Nope...i dont ignore posts on purpose, only if they are antagonistic. And then id be the the perp and id have to ignore myself wink

Im not going to blindly back unclean planes, i have spent along time on keeping planes clean, i just though that by now many of you would have been bored with plane control and wanted to expand. There are good merits to proper control and nice patterns, i dont disagree with that or the fact that you HAVE to learn good planes before delving into the mess with any idea of what you really doing.

Its just that to ME, artistic flare and higher levels of expression are most important, even before performance style's. Only because i try to keep it on a spiritual lvl and be free of "kata" type patterns. I like meg's description of Written by:
Before every session you should take apart your planes (they're quite simple mechanisms) and put them back together again, to make sure they aren't getting rusty anywhere.


And yes im takling about poi/staff

Im talking about stripping away all the moves untill you are just using transitions, putting them back into any combonation but NOT making it into "kata" with set forms. I want to make the form as i spin without muscle memory, it is the only way to freely spin and expand my mind imo.

And dont get me wrong because in not saying that kata/ combos are crap, they are valid untill you reach a stage when you think you dont need them any more.

These are just my ideas, there is no right and wrong...and if u think there is...then maybee your missing out on alot of creative ideas and fun.

"Empty your cup"

and after watching afew of the videos, i find it amusing that some of the people who posted about good plane control, in reality have nice atomic inverted angled planes ubblol


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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Ok it took awhile, but i think iv managed to empty my own cup and change my mind on this topic ubblol biggrin

My planes were really really crap! Well not all of them. I striped down all my moves and when i put them back together, i decided they needed some order. That and watching myself on video and seeing my circles wearn't in the "right" places.

Mainly watching alot of your guys videos and seeing how you use [planes].

Now it left me with alot of problems. (I really really really really want to learn and get better with this so plz bare with me) smile

(1) what ARE proper planes. I mean i know they have to be clean but alot of the effects are 2d! not 3d!?! How can you show me (or anyone else) what the proper planes are?

(2) Im guessing that planes are ONLY good from a camera perspective or a stage (or making clean circles). Say you are watching from the left corner of the stage. The planes are going to look out compaired to someone sitting in the middle row. Or Imagine there are people all around you?!? Where do you "put" your frame? Or plane point?

(3) You can do the moves in alot of different places, do you have to turn your body or aviod some moves, you know will be out to the camera/ audience? (say you are facing me and decide to do weave, now i cant see your circles)

I have some ideas but im not sure how to lay them out... Main idea is, if you are facing someone (face to face) to try and keep it so they can always see the full circles. Which would mean leaving out alot of moves unless you turn side on. shrug

There are quite afew holes in my style that i would like to patch...

Any help plz ubbangel Cole? Blue? Nx!

Heh i feel like a n00bie ubblol


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VampyricAcid
VampyricAcid

veteran
Location: My House
Member Since: 27th Jun 2005
Total posts: 1286
Posted:i have no planes, it makes LazyAngel cry biggrin i am trying to control them, but when im just spinning on my own, i dont really see the point, and im not a performy person, so its only really me who see's....from the inside lol, i just let go and spin and twirl where and how i want! im a free-poi spirit!! (dont hurt me, i love planes really!:P)

Proudly Owned By The BMVC

Are You Sniffing My Mitten?

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:God I wish I found this thread when I was having heaps of trouble understanding fountains! how on earth did i pass it by?



I did a Durbs - honest!!!


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:for mr dragon,



1. proper planes to me suggests there are a set of planes around the body that are parallel with each other and ideally, perpendicular to both the floor and the viewer/audience.

transferring spinning poi between these planes with minimum deviation denotes a certain cleanliness/tidiness of the move.

how can i show you what good planes are to me?

easy, make a video filmed from directly above the spinner smile



2. not necessarily. no, you won't see perfect circles if you are watching clean plane spinning from an angle.

but at least the variation from a circle that is seen is consistent throughout the spin (rather than seeing circles some of the time and randomly shaped ovals when the planes happen to go wonky).

also, from an angle clean transitions between planes are more obviously 3d.

like just about every performance art, there is a best viewing angle and if on stage, you would normally present this straight forwards, towards the middle of the audience.



3. like i tried to explain in the first few posts of this thread, you don't have to ever bend your planes.

do a bf facing me with flat planes, then stall one poi and change its direction - you are now weaving and your planes are still perpendicular to my line of sight smile

if you start with flat planes, only if you bend your planes will you start to get ovals and eventually, side-on circles.

but yeah, you're right that you can't do wheel plane moves while facing someone if you want them to see your circles!

most commonly, for wall plane moves the performer faces the audience, for wheel plane moves the performer is side-on to the audience.



the reason we have been having babies about arashi's atomic techniques is that they are so obviously 3d compared to vertical clean plane spinning.

the only trouble is, they mess with your head so much because they are in contradiction to weave and bf plane theory (they are perpendicular planes sets, not parallel) yet are controlled with a hybrid of weave and bf technique.



side-on circles is the main reason i never bothered with horizontal moves - i just didn't think they were that visual unless you had an audience above you.

conicals however are a different story entirely - using gravity to create sets of cone faces that the poi spin in rather than planes is again, a whole world apart from the way of thinking i set out in this thread.



hope that helps dude.





tink - i hid it well didn't i... wink



cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:Bad Cole spank

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Yes that helps ALOT biggrin

But there is still a spanner in the works... "floor plane"

Ie corkscrew/ split horozontal moves

For me...thats why it all comes back to movement or dance...because there are moves that dont have patterns. And that stuffs the whole plane theory.

Any ideas? Do you guys just cut them out totally???!!!???


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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: dragon
ie corkscrew/ split horozontal moves ... any ideas? Do you guys just cut them out totally???!!!???


well, cole doesn't do anything with horizontal planes.
me either (not that i'm saying my plane control is anything like cole's).

but we're both a bit wierd... ubbangel


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:glad that helped man hug



as the wise monkey said, i don't spin flat horizontal planes.



i play with conicals a bit - i think as long as the angle that each of the the poi make with the horizontal plane are equal (i.e. both poi describe the same size/shape cone), then this looks much prettier and gives you a much wider scope for pleasing patterns.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:OK that is a totall mind censored

Give me a minute to get my head around that confused ubbidea


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i thought i'd chuck this link in here since its sort of related:

link to post with video

that post is right in the middle of a discussion about defining plane transition sequences (planeswap).

you can ignore most of the text, but the video has a few nice examples of plane placement in the wheel plane and also shows a couple of moves that use inside and inverted planes.
those planes are described a little in the post.

for those that just want the video, right click and save as here.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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LazyAngel
LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK
Member Since: 29th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2895
Posted:at the risk of repeating what has already been said...

I think planes are important initially because learning to spin cleanly in different areas around you will enable you to perform smooth transitions with less hitting yourself.

Clean planes also look nice from a spectator's point of view.

Personally I find them aesthetically pleasing, I get annoyed if I spin a move in dodgy planes, especially when I am trying to spin in clean planes as this means I do not have full control over the move I am performing.

However, once I can spin in relatively clean planes, I tend to worry less about them as by that point spinning in that particular position should feel natural.

I then have few qualms about breaking a plane to perform another move as long as I can get my planes back, and prove (to myself) that I have control over the poi

I guess I'm a control freak! ubbloco

Planes also enable you to check whether you are performing a move in the correct timing with relative ease. Timing being something (in my case) which is much more elusive than clean planes.

offtopic Timing being something which I consider to be as important as planes, for the same reasons

Clean planes also enable you to have space in which to move with relative freedom. You can think about your planes as walls between which you can twist and turn without losing control, leading to easier, smoother transitions

Planes are not chains, they are the key to set you free.


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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