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Forums > Help! > Teaching Moves (or...The Longest Post Ever)

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:hoooboy. yes this post is long but hopefully rich and interesting and thought provoking. if you don't care about teaching people then don't toture yourself and skip it. it's taken forever to get it down in words but, if just one person reads it all (lol)and says something helpful or that they were touched, it'll have been worth it. it's gonna take some setup, so nobody misunderstands anybody here... i'm not flaming on anybody, but i feel like this all needs to get talked about, at least for my own sanity. it's been running in my head for some weeks now, ever since coleman asked that last question in the jedi thread, and i am gnawing myself with the responsibilty of knowing the answer to his question. (now don't you dare think this thread is about the jedi thread in any way, or anyone involved in the jedi thread, or even about hop at all) it has been talked about before, but i don't really think like this. it's about egos and moves, and my dilemmas of teaching, and how it is best to learn new moves. that having been said...
first a story.
there's a cartoon called dragonball, and it is so awesome. it is about kung fu, "diligent practice," what we all do , and the philosophies therein. there was an episode recently aired that really struck a cord in me. bear with me here, this will go further

this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."
well he tries and tries, for a long time, but the cat is simply much too fast. he seems to know what the kid will do before he even does it. after a long while, weeks or months or years, who could say, the kid figures out how to get the bottle, and anticipate the CAT'S moves, i'll keep this short by just saying that much.
anyway as he figures it out, and grabs at the bottle, he drops it in the skirmish to get it out of the cats hands, and it falls over the side of the platform to the ground miles below. well, he is obviously pretty distraught. but the cat, to the kid's surprise, congratulates him anyway. he retorts, well, how will i get strong without the water? i'm doomed!
but the cat says....the water was only regular water. you climbed the pillar, and got strength. your tenacity and training, and hard work, and learning how to anticipate my moves, is what have made you a greater warrior. the water was only a ruse, a goal.

i say this, because to me, moves are like the water... they aren't really all that. if they are just tricks, without a solid basics training, then they are just tricks, and they are fun to do, but the movement inside of them is what matters. if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN , and your personal expression will suffer. i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?
i think that it is where a lot of my own inspiration with chains comes from, from the joy of discovery. teachers can be a crutch, and when they are gone, you will still limp. a good teacher teaches one to not need a teacher. you can dance just as beautifully doing a three beat spider(weave) as with a 9 beat conical isolation fractal spider (yup ). but to the beginners, heck even intermediates, actually this is to everybody, myself included, i say work on the basics. if you are stumped, work on the basics. don't know how to do a move? it's simply because you haven't worked on the more basic moves that led up to it. that is all. building a pyramid with a skinny base makes a small pyramid. i say pyramid because that's what's up, poi are fractal in nature, and follow sacred geometry, like everything else in our universe.

but, see, that's still all just about teaching yourself moves. let's go further. this is where it gets touchy.

another dragonball inspired thought .
there is a line. a line between confidence, and arrogance. confidence is a good thing, it is natural when we are in our power, those times when we are most ourselves and the chatter in the head isn't controlling our very spirit. humility is it's bedfellow. but if we start identifying with the external too much, and lose some of the humility, we cross the line into arrogance.
now, don't get me wrong. it's one thing to be lighting up, and be having fun, like, "hot damn everybody! GET YOUR GAME ON and let's rock this friggin party!" or to figure out a cool move, throw up your arms, run in circles, and be like "goddamn!! I AM THIE SHIZIT YOOOO!"
but you cross that line when you rate yourself against others. everyone, myself included, has done it to some degree. it gets harder to avoid as you get further along your skill level, and usually this seems to center on what hard moves you can do. why is that? it seems like yet another trap of karma and the physical plane.

objectively understanding all this ego and fire society stuff is hard for me, because, god, how do i say this, i usually know more about chains than most people i run across, even tho i'm not the best by any means, so i am in a teaching position usually, and try to be a really humble person, so i can only observe people's actions from a certain perspective.(on top of that, i'm really shy and most people take that to mean i'm snobbish, until they talk to me and realize i'm nice. but maybe that changes how people act toward me) but basically i see people getting ego'd out a lot here in america, and then turn their colors pretty quickly. i am so much more excited, inspired, touched and wanting to learn and teach with someone that has fewer good, clean controlled movements, and wants to share and help people, than by someone who can do a five beat weave but can't control their planes and thinks they are better than everybody. usually those are the folks that go around acting like they know everything, but the problem is once they find out i know more, they treat me a certain way, cause in their minds i'm "better" and they either look up to me or get competitive. therefore the only time i see mr. ego's true colors is when i first meet them, and lotsa times see a lot of ego. but even if they are egos after they see me dance they want to be my buddy so they can learn moves.
so if i was not as good, they would still treat me the way they did when we first met, i suppose. is that how it is? talking about this stuff to people around the states, and in other threads here at hop, with pele and other pro folks, and beginners alike, gives me that impression; that there are more often than not out of control egos all over the place. now, that's okay, really, everybody has an ego, and we all have issues in different areas, and i don't judge harshly because i'm a complete NUT barely on the verge of sanity... but some people have competitive, violent ego PROBLEMS, and have a lot of work to do, you've met them, you know who i mean. and just like with rampant consumerism, the disease of babylon. they don't know that they do, or they wouldn't do it anymore. they just do, and it'll take time to get over it. so is it ethical to just broadly teach people things that they would learn anyway, given patience and discipline, but at the same time can use to fuel their egos thus making true spiritual growth even harder? like would you teach the world how to make a bomb with a tooth pick, if you could? or does the good of teaching far outweigh the spiritual suffering caused by the misuse of power? for instance, why don't monks just teach everybody in the world how to meditate and do levitation, fixing our energy crisis? just an example, tho grossly oversimplified, but there are reasons that hidden teachings are hidden.

the only thing that makes a person better or worse is their lack of or attention to safety. that's where some people just plain suck.

this thread hopefully will be about the ways we learn, and whether some can be more spiritually fulfilling than others. i wanna hear how someone that learned hard stuff right away, and can't discover moves, feels about this. does the hump get crossed anyway? or is it detrimental? am i wrong to think there is a better way to learn, or does it even out in the end? here's some reasons why i want to know...

i'm having some really cool discussions with people off board that choose not to post here. i know also that some of the most advanced, badass, super ninja action mofos in the world, really cool, spiritual people that probably would have great things to say, (things i wish they could say here, for the teaching benefits) don't post here either. somewhere along the way in their lives words and such have made communication with people sucky.... now i know that it is really hard to talk and get subtleties across with only typed words. especially if people are always joking and using reverse psychology as humor, like i do . but it can be pretty frustrating to deal with all the people stuff, and most people just avoid doing it and keep to their own practice.

on that note let me say really quickly that i hope nobody here is mad at me. i sort of am getting the feeling that i may have rubbed everybody the wrong way, but i'm not sure how. probably by putting my foot in my mouth, as usual, and joking and not being quite understood. so this thread is also about trying to bridge any personal gaps i may have inadvertently created, by telling you exactly where i'm coming from. or maybe i'm being a hypersensitive scorpio (gee imagine that).

anybody knows i have shared a lot of knowledge about stuff, especially here at hop, and also that i show anybody that i meet what they want to know. but i have really held back in the teaching moves aspect here at hop, and just try to help people along at the stages they are at, and i seems like others do the same. i'm not saying that to show off. honesty, i just feel a little guilty.

now remember, like i said, the basics are what's important. here is an example, one which explains why i have so much to chew on over this learning issue: to explain how to correctly do stuff like butterfly hyperloop buzzsaws, for example, with the style and terminology out there in the general public is darn near impossible, and to explain how to do them, and other second harmonic moves correctly , requires a lot of basics training in a totally different style that would be way too hard to do in just words. but i sure feel bad when somebody like coleman, who i wanna help, and who i'm sure would love to know, asks how to do it and i don't have a month to answer or, if i even should. i mean i could answer but not the right way. so then i consider the possibility of doing a whole big crazy involved video instruction thing, or a book with pictures and such.
but therein lies the rub, and the point of all this friggin typing* rubs fingers*-
is it ethically, spiritually, right to do all that? especially if i were going to involve money and that whole world in the process? i don't have a problem getting money for my hard work, especially since i don't really buy expensive things, so it's not really about that, but it does "raise the stakes". the healing and growth of all of our spirits are what matters to me, and are the effects i want my actions to have, so with that i need help deciding. really the moves aren't important. the meditation, the discipline of practice, the sharing life with your fellow humans, that's where it's at.
like in karate kid, mr. miagi shows him how to do kung fu by painting a fence. course little ralph macchio just wants to know how to kick butt... but if you spend your time with the basics, the kung fu unfolds like a newspaper, and you can go out and KICK SOME COBRA KAI A$$. lol
but here's the point of this thread... is it right, as a teacher, to teach moves? cause even
here at hop the elders seem to teach some basics, and then usually give hints, nudges, directions, or answers. and i think that's the best way.
you guys, there are people out there that are sooooo friggin amazing, and they don't do this teaching moves stuff, because of these selfsame reasons, so this issue goes beyond me, i think... a lot of people, even here i've read it, say to us, sage, or me, or other _intermediate_ people that i know, that we are advanced . hah! especially since somebody, a friend, taped sage goofing off and sent it into a contest (tee hee), out of benevolent reasons (man we're all poor, and sage sure has shared and used the heck out of that equipment). but we are not all that advanced really. we have a certain style, which does lots of crazy moves, and others have another style, but we are not even the most advanced in the world. IF YOU ONLY KNEW what was out there. this is a great big world. the problem is, there is a lack of teaching out there, because once you start teaching moves, and not technique, or dancing theory, and all the other stuff that goes hand in hand with this art form, people start thinking that they are what matters. and out of naivete they even think that they are some strange concept known as "best" and so most really good people don't teach that kind of stuff... the real stuff, if you are not teaching yourself, needs a flesh and blood teacher, who is wise, or you are just learning the ego karma and not the stillness. and that's a trap.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Tia


member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 12
Posted:I want to thank first all the people who have posted replies here...I'd forgotten why I want to do this thing called poi. I have been doing poi for a year but actually only learning for 3 months (for lack of teachers...and I don't think it's possible to learn completely on your own) but I have started to learn moves I have seen and always wanted to do...only everytime I get something someone says to me "now do it backwards" or "ok now add this" I spend all my time learning the next move without ever perfecting what I have, all the time thinking...if I can learn the 5 then I will be able to do what I want...only I don't want to do the 5 beat or the 7 or the butterfly or any other move....I WANT TO DANCE!!! The most beautiful thing I have ever seen was done by a girl who doesn't have a clue what any of these moves are called she just dances to show everyone who cares to watch what she is feeling at the time. I want to do that. I want to dance and the next time I am spinning and someone comes to ask me if I can do the behind the back reverse 5 beat weave (or whatever) I am just going to say yes and continue perfecting the things I learned first. Thanks I really had forgotten what it is supposed to be (in my mind)

When I die I want to come back as a glowstick

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Tia...that was beautiful and lovely and wonderful and spot on and it made me smile ! Shine on gorgeous...and do it your own stylish way! Cheers to ya!

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:So many wonderful points brought up in this thread. I'm only going to address the specific point of "teaching appreciation". I had many conversations about this in my "Mathematics Education" classes and it does translate well to teaching poi.

For those of you skimming, my thesis is gonna be:

A student must gain ownership AND understanding of the material FIRST in order to appreciate it.

One of my critiques of Elementary Education is that sometimes teachers get carried away teaching topics that THEY find elegant but someone who is just learning the topic would find utterly useless.

This is kind of a complicated example but if someone understands it then it was worth my while. It's an old math problem and it goes like this...

****

One hundred students are assigned lockers 1 through 100. The student assigned to locker number 1 opens all 100 lockers. The student assigned to locker number 2 then closes all the lockers whose numbers are multiples of 2. The student assigned to locker number 3 changes the status of all lockers whose numbers are multiples of 3 (e.g. locker number 3, which is open, is closed, while locker number 6, which is closed, is opened.) The student assigned to locker number 4 changes the status of all lockers whose numbers are multiples of 4, and so on for all 100 students.
Your task is to find:
Which lockers will be left open?
How many lockers, and which ones, will be touched exactly twice?

****

It turn out that the open lockers are #s:
1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100

And the lockers that are touched twice are #s:
2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97

****

Looking at the above numbers a chunk of you might not be blown away by the beauty and elegance of this problem. But by math nerd standards, it's a 5 beat weave.

My room full of math teachers who'd been studying math their whole lives immidiately realized that the first strand of numbers are perfect squares and the second strand of numbers are prime numbers. They excitedly went back to their classrooms and showed it to their students... who, to the teacher's surprise, could truely have cared less.

The reason why the student's didn't appreciate the problem is becuse they didn't understand that MOST things AREN'T perfect mathematical patterns.

If you show a card trick to an infant, he's NOT going to be amazed because he does't know that the King of Diamonds SHOULDN'T turn into the King of Spades.

****

Back to Poi. By poi learning curve I'm JUST starting to gain appreciation for some of the beauty within the patterns. Only after accepting that a three beat weave is fundamental can a 5 beat, behind the back weave be elegant. Only after one has become truely familiar with simple moves can one become amazed by more complicated ones. That's exactly why an audience looks at someone doing a 7 beat corkscrew into a hyperloop and say "Hey look! That guy's twirling fire!"

You can't TEACH appreciation. You can only give someone the tools with which to appreciate. A newbie SHOULDN'T have a profound appreciation for the journey he is embarking upon. It must be aquired along the way.

Just like a 2-year old, a new spinner is all about "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie!" new moves, new tools, new tricks... Only when he has OWNED something can he look down and appreciate what he has.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:it's so nice to read some of the above posts, people understand the more they acomplish.

Tia your post was very moving, thank you.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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colm


colm

Porn Appreciator
Location: Ireland

Total posts: 118
Posted:This thread is great. Clears the head a bit. Thanks!

[ 08. March 2003, 02:33: Message edited by: colm ]


I'm going straight to hell.
Better practice my fire show.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:*bumpin this cuz i see bender and he would like this*


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:i totally agree, dude!
in teaching firetwirling, it helps heaps simply by emphasising the word '-dancing'

failing that you could emphasiss the word 'Britney'


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:I had to print out this thread and read it over the weekend - lots to think about..

I do agree with you Arashi - the basics need to be nailed.. you can do all sorts of fancy tricks - but if you don't have the basics down.. it's like puttin a fancy roof on a mud hut..

When I show new people (I'm so not good enuff to even think about teaching) I try to get them to practise on the basic swings till they nail them - but many want to run before they can walk.. they get there eventually - but what can you do ecept let them find thier own path..

Stuuning and beautiful post man...


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I am completely self taught and it is only in the last 3 months that I have
1) met other twirlers
2) really started to enjoy poi
3) Realise that I needed to start again.

I was teaching myself from HOP and didn't know anyone who could teach me. I could do a 2 beat weave in both directions behind my back but I couldn't recognise that I wasn't doing a 3 beat in front of my body. My low wave involved my hands sticking sideways outwards from my hip. Even though, I saw people posting here and there that it was possible to do every move in reverse I never understood the importance of this and therefore I never saw the point?!?

It's only really since I met other people and bought CoL 3 that I realised I was a mess. I've spent a long time now only practising butterfly moves now and it's only since I've been doing this that I've created a base for me to start moving my body in my usual funky dance format . I used to be mad about weave moves and now hate them (for the moment anyway). I know now that I won't go near weaves until I'm happy with my butterflies. The other day a friend turned round and said that I'm waaaay better than I used to be and I haven't learnt any new moves. I've only re-learned the ones I wasn't doing properly in the first place.

I know that if I knew from the start what I know now. Or if someone who knew something about poi could have seen me swing. Or if I'd not been so eager to learn new moves that I'd skipped though explanations and not read 'em properly and as soon as I had something that felt similar run off to the next one. Or if Arashi had started this thread a year and a half ago (Knew I could blame someone for my problems ). I know I'd be in a completely differeny place now. I'm not unhappy with where I am now though because this has been my own little poi journey.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Tia


member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 12
Posted:In the spirit of what I said last...I have now started over....after a week I can now do the butterfly, reverse butterfly, onehanded starting, stopping starting again. Behind the back, overhead, turning, and yet still I will continue until I can do the butterfly in every imaginable way. My sister came out last weekend and she said I was much better as well...and I did nothing but the butterfly all night. I can't thank you enough for the actual wisdom this thread contains...much love and luck to EVERYONE!!!!
I am very PLURRy right now


When I die I want to come back as a glowstick

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:yeah, tia, that's the ironic part... the more time you spend on the basics like slowing down, plane control, etc., the more you progress .

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Ah daniel-son.
Wax on....
Wax off...

Tia, groovy posts


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:heck, i'm diggin everybody. thanks everybody, lovin all of it. my favoritest-est thread

group hug!


passes around tea and tequila... yeah it's the good stuff.

to continue what NYC said in his great mathematical analogy...
so, i am working on this area right now, opening up deeper levels of understanding movement, in a way that people can learn for themselves. actually with a very mathematical foundation. in later techniques, math is integral. especially prime numbers. "math is the language of the universe", said the algorythm to the matrix hologram. hopefully the result will be what coleman said about the skateboarding society, that the new kids would progress faster and take it to the next level. the visions of possibilities in my mind are incredible, really, things that require a young gymnastic body, unlike my old broken down butt... anybody wanna send your children to become my poi slave? or just come give me a massage?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:<warms up hands and starts to focus on energy>

where's that bottle of massage oil??


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:..what bottle of massage oil?
*burp*
oops...


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:you wanna learn poi all over again, then come and be part of te POOKa's latest show.... tellin you man, serious hard times have been had these past 7 days, like how easy is it to learn buzzsaw fountains.... when you have been spinning for one and a half years and now at a considerably decent level of ability, even learning things like that are way hard when i have never tried to learn them before, had to totally learn a whole load of basics and be capable of doing them all as slow as hell and choreographed with 4 other spinners as well as remeber so many other parts in a 45 min show.... i am totally head fuct.

digging this whole learning over again thing. [feeling all of ya]


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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colm


colm

Porn Appreciator
Location: Ireland

Total posts: 118
Posted:buzzsaw fountain, what's that??
gonna go post this in poi moves, after I do the dreaded search of course


I'm going straight to hell.
Better practice my fire show.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by 1112 Days Of Static....:
like how easy is it to learn buzzsaw fountains.... ya should be thankful they don't want you to do it isolated - how does it go over the bloody top??!!!?

[/completely off topic comment]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Y'know, if HoP is going to have "Poi Nerds" I think we need "Poi Jocks" to kick their asses every now and then. I nominate those of us who are too stupid to keep up with the nerds as "Poi Jocks" who's jobs include drinking, talking about sports, sleeping with the hot poi girls, and beating up the poi nerds.

{Off to "saran wrap" PK and Coleman to the flag pole for getting off topic.}


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:I have to say, i've really enjoyed learning off HoP folks... Little hints and suggestions from various people, descriptions of new moves, videos and seeing people spin (Luckily i live in sheffield and saw some really good spinners quite regularly when i was first starting...) have kept me working at things i'd dismissed as not possible or people had said looked ugly and wern't worth the effort. I've been spinning for almost a year and i thought i was quite good, in a technical kind of way... I can do lots of 'moves', but they're all just extentions of a couple of basic ones, and it's only now that i'm starting to make them all flow together... and dance, really. But it's been always knowing theres something i can't do that's been driving me on... i want to be able to lose myself in the music and not have to worry about trying to force my poi somewhere where they don't want to go. (they retaliate by hitting me in places i don't want them to go...)
I'm happy to show people moves, but i can't tell them how to do them, i don't know, i've learned them by letting the poi spin and trying to following them with my hands (always a good tip, that... works well for staff as well), and lying in bed thinking about the physics... Oh, and one odd day when i felt the poi as extentions of my arms, like i had really long fingers or tenticles or something and was just turning my wrists over and flicking them around...
Back to reality, i think that another year of this and i might be ready to try fire, and be in a position where i could put together a routine i was confident wouldn't set my hair alight and had enough variation to keep people interested for a full burn...

--Ben


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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:see new video entitled how to in the moves section i think robs nicely added title suits this thread

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:oh ben you dont need another year man, i've seen you come from 2 beat to beyond good standards, in the short length of time i have known you, you've far reached a motion of partern in learning curves far quicker than some of us did.
"its who you know you know!" looks around for drew and cole. oh rob too.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:just quickly off topic.....has PK really only been mischief making for 3 years 117 days? what was he doing before that?


will we ever know?

(oh and pk still counts on the...ooooh hang on. noo thread coming in poimoves...seeya


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London

Total posts: 2737
Posted:Revenge of the killer length posts.......

Hmmmm weird I was thinking about lots of various things involved in this post myself over the last few days.

Throw the teaching one in first.
If I teach poi, it's normally to beginners.
I tell them....This is the idea behind turns, these are a few of the ideas behind wraps, this is the principal of weave/butterfly or whatever, show them a vumber of different variations, set their minds thinking and tell them to come back in 6 months and show me stuff.
9/10 they do.
If you teach a person a move they're happy for 5 mins, teach them a concept and they're happy for weeks.

Now this is probably specifically related to why I do poi. I do it for a huge number of reasons, and these reasons change all the time. At the moment however I'm seeking to push boundaries.......and the quicker the better obviously - lol. (This means I try to work possibilities out for myself rather than watching people so much)

My route along the poi path has so far been a long one, I've learned very slowly but picked up a few things that have made my style what it is.
Staff: - I took a staff course too and re-iterating on what drome pixie said, my style when I'm not concentrating is not my own.
Contact staff on the other hand, I taught myself by watching others and have so far just cannibalised lots of different styles to attempt to make a first draft at my own.
And Devil sticks I'm playing with.

Each of my toys have been learned in different ways and under different circumstances and although not proof of anything on their own, other peoples views seems to tie in so.....

Poi, I have my own style, my own "moves" and can pick up more or less any poi move I want withing an hour at most regardless of what it is. I come up with variations on moves I know every time I pick my poi up. I feel I'm reaching a level of control whereby making the poi do what I want is not the problem, thinking up further variation on moves is. When I got into it, I did it for myself and every move was a milestone along the road to control. A lot of my early practice was devoted to getting the poi to swing all over the place and see what I "could" do, not what anyone could show me, and a lot of the real inspiration (although I was a newbie and didn't realise it at the time) came from BamBam, Carrie and Dom thru concepts they were sharing with me, and not flashy behind the back weave shit......wicked.......I'm now going thru a bored patch but it's taken a year and I'll get back into it when Drew and Cole get their thinking caps on and inspire me again as they have done so many times before.

Staff, I don't spin. In 6 weeks I'd "Fast-tracked it", I could spin pretty circles all over the place and now I'm bored (6 weeks)
I now use it as transitions between contact staff.
It was a great 6 weeks but all I've learned is how Dave spins a staff, and got bored with it before I sat there and had time to work on my own style and making it mine.

Contact staff, as I've said before I plagerised everyone elses styles to form my own, but it's still fun and there's possibilities out there to explore. It it the edge of its parabolic curve when I stopped trying to learn how to do contact moves, and under the advice of my mate Ben started to find out on which parts of my body I could control it better. I'm trying to tidy it up a bit, but it's still a control thing.

Devil Sticks:- playing with, and trying to control it. I learned a heap of moved off my mate Adam to start the ball rolling, learned the principals of why the stick stays up and now I'm doing what I did with poi and first learning a level of control.

Hmmm running themes.......
1.- If you learn or teach "moves" then everyone's style in an area becomes the same, everyones moves become the same and inspiration becomes stagnant. The people that stand out to me (Drew, Dom, PK etc) are the ones that have learned how to control it, and from there do what "they want" with it, and not just what the poi wants to do if you move your hands in a certain way.
Beginners tend to feel they're not progressing as quickly if they haven't learned 4 new moves today, when they learned 6 yesterday. If they got the concepts behind moves, then variations (and every move is a variation on something else) start to become obvious. Style is also extremely difficult (if not impossible) without control.
In general the people that I think have got it a bit more sussed than the rest of us mortals, are the ones that sit down and think about it, practice on their own more, and tend to be able to teach themselves much faster than other people can teach them.

2. The flip side is that toys are (to me anyway) a game. Once I have a degree skill that I'm happy with it goes in the cupboard under the stairs only to come out when it's raining and I'm pissed.
(Or when some jedi sets me off on a new concept - *Note concept not move*)
And since I devote so much time to them, I'm foreseeing a new hobby taking hold of me.

Disclaimer:- That reads badly but I'm not going to change it so........Not saying that I'm good, or better than anyone, or that I think I've "Done poi" before any shouts. I just get bored quicker than some people.

Just my thoughts.....


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:read pretty damn fine to me cam.
i know how you feel about getting to a stagnant stage in poi, i've been like that for a while now, end up doing the same shit for a while with no inspiration, then once in a while pick up my poi and can do some thing new with out trying, yesterday when playing at waterloo with jez i got a buzzsaw behind the back *chuffed*.
things come and go and thats the way it goes, to be honest i am really sad that drew is not poi mad any more, one of my demon inspirators, maybe when dom gets back he might change his mind again and do more poi, there must be more theories for him to work on or maybe people like us to go back and give him some thing new, just like the reason for the jedi thread.
fads in learning curvs to gain control what we got??? air wraps, hyperloops, gilligans what next, more and more new families of moves coming in, i think cole is doing some weird but awsome new variations though i dont want to catch on to style Xeroxing again, you know what i mean, individuality is what matters most to me and what i can and comfortably do and hope looks good.
i think my downfall to becoming poi'd out of late is joining te POOka's show refractions, its awsome dont get me wrong, but when you do hours of rehearsals day to day its got me down and i just dont play happily any more, i dont like the way i have sunk into a rut, i need some variation right now, but my stick hasnt come any where cos i dont play all i want to do is juggle and push my boundaries with that, with in 3 months though not all that good but i can cascade 4 balls comfortably, seems to be the only thing that keeps my mind ocupied and doesnt involve swinging stuff.
stage of poi anti spinning- yeah i'm with drew here, why do poi have to make circles???? **** circles i dont like them much any more their easy! but dont take that as me making a big headed coment cos i aint, the only variation in poi right now that i find remotly interesting is not making circles! yeah never been interested in hyperloops or airwraps, but yeah i can do them or at least one or two of them, maybe in a year i will know and be able to do the whole families and variations there of, for now i feel like leaving it to others.
i'm just happy doing what i wanna do right now and thats spin once in a while, put on a ****ing good show with the POO, juggle and make videos.

strange the way life takes you aint it. 6 months down the line and what will we post on this thread next????
well for my next installments hide under my skirt and you might get a lookin!
's cam.

every one....

[ 13. May 2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Trait Of 1112 ]


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London

Total posts: 2737
Posted:

Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:wassup.

your words came right out of my mouth. it's almost like kissing. anyway, yeah, things change when poi becomes your career. i love it, don't get me wrong, but it changes things a little. they can't be just all fun and play, you have to work at it. and you have to learn those moves that were boring at first, so you can choreograph with others that are doing them. sometimes i spin for 8 hours a day for months and months, sometimes i don't even want to SEE them for weeks, even months. it's sort of like being married! and it's great when some hot young thing comes along and flirts with you (meteors) and adds some spice to the sex- i mean poi. sorry. every day, i wake up, and do things to make myself a better spinner. as far as i'm concerned, i like to move the poi every way possible, i don't shut out anything,. every technique (wraps, "gilligans", stalls, etc.) has it's own place in the dance, a little peice of choreography they lend themselves to. i say master them all. what do we have but time?
the most growth for me has come from learning to move my body with no poi in my hands. then, when the poi are there, they are just the icing on the cake, and not the whole birthday party.
have i told you guys about bullwhips yet?
all these flexible weapons you guys are digging, meteors, rope dart, poi, etc., well, whips are the coup de grace. if poi are my wife, then in most uncharacteristic fashion (very un-knight-in-shining-armor), whips are my mistress. i been doing them longer, and i'll never stop. whips whips whips! ha ha, they really are my mistress cause you can't just play with her anywhere, or people will freak. you have to play with her somewhere special, hidden away, away from prying eyes and sensitive ears. and you need lots of room, cause it gets hot and wild!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:ruffness!

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London

Total posts: 2737
Posted:lol

Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I've spent 99% of my poi time and energy teaching. It's really a great thing in some aspects. We've got quite a few newbies out here and hopefully will get a lovely poiinthepark scene going this summer.

I wish I could say I was learning in the process but the honest truth is: I'm not.

I haven't learned a new move all winter but maybe the change in weather will help.

I know I'm going to fall into the same trap that I do with every hobby... I'll teach people to be better than I am. For some reason I'm really good at that. Thankfully my ego can handle that but it is kind of annoying that I don't progress NEARLY as fast as my students. I guess I just need to find a teacher.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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