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Forums > Help! > Teaching Moves (or...The Longest Post Ever)

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:hoooboy. yes this post is long but hopefully rich and interesting and thought provoking. if you don't care about teaching people then don't toture yourself and skip it. it's taken forever to get it down in words but, if just one person reads it all (lol)and says something helpful or that they were touched, it'll have been worth it. it's gonna take some setup, so nobody misunderstands anybody here... i'm not flaming on anybody, but i feel like this all needs to get talked about, at least for my own sanity. it's been running in my head for some weeks now, ever since coleman asked that last question in the jedi thread, and i am gnawing myself with the responsibilty of knowing the answer to his question. (now don't you dare think this thread is about the jedi thread in any way, or anyone involved in the jedi thread, or even about hop at all) it has been talked about before, but i don't really think like this. it's about egos and moves, and my dilemmas of teaching, and how it is best to learn new moves. that having been said...
first a story.
there's a cartoon called dragonball, and it is so awesome. it is about kung fu, "diligent practice," what we all do , and the philosophies therein. there was an episode recently aired that really struck a cord in me. bear with me here, this will go further

this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."
well he tries and tries, for a long time, but the cat is simply much too fast. he seems to know what the kid will do before he even does it. after a long while, weeks or months or years, who could say, the kid figures out how to get the bottle, and anticipate the CAT'S moves, i'll keep this short by just saying that much.
anyway as he figures it out, and grabs at the bottle, he drops it in the skirmish to get it out of the cats hands, and it falls over the side of the platform to the ground miles below. well, he is obviously pretty distraught. but the cat, to the kid's surprise, congratulates him anyway. he retorts, well, how will i get strong without the water? i'm doomed!
but the cat says....the water was only regular water. you climbed the pillar, and got strength. your tenacity and training, and hard work, and learning how to anticipate my moves, is what have made you a greater warrior. the water was only a ruse, a goal.

i say this, because to me, moves are like the water... they aren't really all that. if they are just tricks, without a solid basics training, then they are just tricks, and they are fun to do, but the movement inside of them is what matters. if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN , and your personal expression will suffer. i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?
i think that it is where a lot of my own inspiration with chains comes from, from the joy of discovery. teachers can be a crutch, and when they are gone, you will still limp. a good teacher teaches one to not need a teacher. you can dance just as beautifully doing a three beat spider(weave) as with a 9 beat conical isolation fractal spider (yup ). but to the beginners, heck even intermediates, actually this is to everybody, myself included, i say work on the basics. if you are stumped, work on the basics. don't know how to do a move? it's simply because you haven't worked on the more basic moves that led up to it. that is all. building a pyramid with a skinny base makes a small pyramid. i say pyramid because that's what's up, poi are fractal in nature, and follow sacred geometry, like everything else in our universe.

but, see, that's still all just about teaching yourself moves. let's go further. this is where it gets touchy.

another dragonball inspired thought .
there is a line. a line between confidence, and arrogance. confidence is a good thing, it is natural when we are in our power, those times when we are most ourselves and the chatter in the head isn't controlling our very spirit. humility is it's bedfellow. but if we start identifying with the external too much, and lose some of the humility, we cross the line into arrogance.
now, don't get me wrong. it's one thing to be lighting up, and be having fun, like, "hot damn everybody! GET YOUR GAME ON and let's rock this friggin party!" or to figure out a cool move, throw up your arms, run in circles, and be like "goddamn!! I AM THIE SHIZIT YOOOO!"
but you cross that line when you rate yourself against others. everyone, myself included, has done it to some degree. it gets harder to avoid as you get further along your skill level, and usually this seems to center on what hard moves you can do. why is that? it seems like yet another trap of karma and the physical plane.

objectively understanding all this ego and fire society stuff is hard for me, because, god, how do i say this, i usually know more about chains than most people i run across, even tho i'm not the best by any means, so i am in a teaching position usually, and try to be a really humble person, so i can only observe people's actions from a certain perspective.(on top of that, i'm really shy and most people take that to mean i'm snobbish, until they talk to me and realize i'm nice. but maybe that changes how people act toward me) but basically i see people getting ego'd out a lot here in america, and then turn their colors pretty quickly. i am so much more excited, inspired, touched and wanting to learn and teach with someone that has fewer good, clean controlled movements, and wants to share and help people, than by someone who can do a five beat weave but can't control their planes and thinks they are better than everybody. usually those are the folks that go around acting like they know everything, but the problem is once they find out i know more, they treat me a certain way, cause in their minds i'm "better" and they either look up to me or get competitive. therefore the only time i see mr. ego's true colors is when i first meet them, and lotsa times see a lot of ego. but even if they are egos after they see me dance they want to be my buddy so they can learn moves.
so if i was not as good, they would still treat me the way they did when we first met, i suppose. is that how it is? talking about this stuff to people around the states, and in other threads here at hop, with pele and other pro folks, and beginners alike, gives me that impression; that there are more often than not out of control egos all over the place. now, that's okay, really, everybody has an ego, and we all have issues in different areas, and i don't judge harshly because i'm a complete NUT barely on the verge of sanity... but some people have competitive, violent ego PROBLEMS, and have a lot of work to do, you've met them, you know who i mean. and just like with rampant consumerism, the disease of babylon. they don't know that they do, or they wouldn't do it anymore. they just do, and it'll take time to get over it. so is it ethical to just broadly teach people things that they would learn anyway, given patience and discipline, but at the same time can use to fuel their egos thus making true spiritual growth even harder? like would you teach the world how to make a bomb with a tooth pick, if you could? or does the good of teaching far outweigh the spiritual suffering caused by the misuse of power? for instance, why don't monks just teach everybody in the world how to meditate and do levitation, fixing our energy crisis? just an example, tho grossly oversimplified, but there are reasons that hidden teachings are hidden.

the only thing that makes a person better or worse is their lack of or attention to safety. that's where some people just plain suck.

this thread hopefully will be about the ways we learn, and whether some can be more spiritually fulfilling than others. i wanna hear how someone that learned hard stuff right away, and can't discover moves, feels about this. does the hump get crossed anyway? or is it detrimental? am i wrong to think there is a better way to learn, or does it even out in the end? here's some reasons why i want to know...

i'm having some really cool discussions with people off board that choose not to post here. i know also that some of the most advanced, badass, super ninja action mofos in the world, really cool, spiritual people that probably would have great things to say, (things i wish they could say here, for the teaching benefits) don't post here either. somewhere along the way in their lives words and such have made communication with people sucky.... now i know that it is really hard to talk and get subtleties across with only typed words. especially if people are always joking and using reverse psychology as humor, like i do . but it can be pretty frustrating to deal with all the people stuff, and most people just avoid doing it and keep to their own practice.

on that note let me say really quickly that i hope nobody here is mad at me. i sort of am getting the feeling that i may have rubbed everybody the wrong way, but i'm not sure how. probably by putting my foot in my mouth, as usual, and joking and not being quite understood. so this thread is also about trying to bridge any personal gaps i may have inadvertently created, by telling you exactly where i'm coming from. or maybe i'm being a hypersensitive scorpio (gee imagine that).

anybody knows i have shared a lot of knowledge about stuff, especially here at hop, and also that i show anybody that i meet what they want to know. but i have really held back in the teaching moves aspect here at hop, and just try to help people along at the stages they are at, and i seems like others do the same. i'm not saying that to show off. honesty, i just feel a little guilty.

now remember, like i said, the basics are what's important. here is an example, one which explains why i have so much to chew on over this learning issue: to explain how to correctly do stuff like butterfly hyperloop buzzsaws, for example, with the style and terminology out there in the general public is darn near impossible, and to explain how to do them, and other second harmonic moves correctly , requires a lot of basics training in a totally different style that would be way too hard to do in just words. but i sure feel bad when somebody like coleman, who i wanna help, and who i'm sure would love to know, asks how to do it and i don't have a month to answer or, if i even should. i mean i could answer but not the right way. so then i consider the possibility of doing a whole big crazy involved video instruction thing, or a book with pictures and such.
but therein lies the rub, and the point of all this friggin typing* rubs fingers*-
is it ethically, spiritually, right to do all that? especially if i were going to involve money and that whole world in the process? i don't have a problem getting money for my hard work, especially since i don't really buy expensive things, so it's not really about that, but it does "raise the stakes". the healing and growth of all of our spirits are what matters to me, and are the effects i want my actions to have, so with that i need help deciding. really the moves aren't important. the meditation, the discipline of practice, the sharing life with your fellow humans, that's where it's at.
like in karate kid, mr. miagi shows him how to do kung fu by painting a fence. course little ralph macchio just wants to know how to kick butt... but if you spend your time with the basics, the kung fu unfolds like a newspaper, and you can go out and KICK SOME COBRA KAI A$$. lol
but here's the point of this thread... is it right, as a teacher, to teach moves? cause even
here at hop the elders seem to teach some basics, and then usually give hints, nudges, directions, or answers. and i think that's the best way.
you guys, there are people out there that are sooooo friggin amazing, and they don't do this teaching moves stuff, because of these selfsame reasons, so this issue goes beyond me, i think... a lot of people, even here i've read it, say to us, sage, or me, or other _intermediate_ people that i know, that we are advanced . hah! especially since somebody, a friend, taped sage goofing off and sent it into a contest (tee hee), out of benevolent reasons (man we're all poor, and sage sure has shared and used the heck out of that equipment). but we are not all that advanced really. we have a certain style, which does lots of crazy moves, and others have another style, but we are not even the most advanced in the world. IF YOU ONLY KNEW what was out there. this is a great big world. the problem is, there is a lack of teaching out there, because once you start teaching moves, and not technique, or dancing theory, and all the other stuff that goes hand in hand with this art form, people start thinking that they are what matters. and out of naivete they even think that they are some strange concept known as "best" and so most really good people don't teach that kind of stuff... the real stuff, if you are not teaching yourself, needs a flesh and blood teacher, who is wise, or you are just learning the ego karma and not the stillness. and that's a trap.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Magickal_Kaleidoscope
member
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Member Since: 28th Dec 2002
Total posts: 119
Posted:intresting thread, can't believe i managed to read all of it
gotta luv DBZ


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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:damn man if only my eyes could stay open i would type out a nice reply, but have a short one cos its 4.30am and i got a big ass nye gig to get to today.

was a real good read bro, fasinating, inspireing and moving too. grasping that whole concept that some one points out to you that they worship your abilities and make you out to be some hirearchie [sp?] of poi, is a kick in the teeth. i think most of us here feel the same, nice to recieve a pat on the back and all that. but can some times be over done.
as for the teaching, i'm more good at detailing, but one thing i always teach is flow man, to move gracefully with the moves i teach and where else you can take that move. its an ongoing thing, we have the rest of our lives to find where we want to be. so in my own time i will teach the world what i have come to learn, and share with all, either in person or via HOP.
f&&k this got longet than antisipated!

spread the love of poi and be happy, light up and dance, the night is young.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:Wax on and wax off!

arashi:

Interesting thread!
I cant belive I have just read all that ! It is quite interesting how your head works!

Anyways back to topic...

I learned poi originally by myself and then began to learn 'moves' a yr and a half later. I took a staff course to learn the basics of staff. Contact, juggling, devil sticks and other things I have 'just played' with. The last list are the ones I have done pretty much by myself in my own head if you know what I mean...

With poi I am quite happy that I began to join people as I never realised how techinical it could all be. BUT most people have taught me moves and not LIFE. One person whom I love very much HAS been my teacher and mentor in this spiritual path of manipulation. BUT he has never really taught me moves! He taught me how to think of it and did this without me noticing and I dont think he even had the intention of teaching.

When I learned staff I thought it was wicked to take a class and lean move BUT nowadays when I havent spun my staff for a while I tend to go into my teachers style. Not that thats bad or anything BUT again I dont have my venue of individuality with the staff and learning it in a controled environment actually has hindered my growth in it as I am not so free to explore it in my mind because it was learned in a structured fashion...although I am getting over that slowly.

I think its always going to be up to the individual. If you put someone else in my shoes in the two situations I described with poi and staff you can obviously suspect that different pepole whould have gathered different things from both teachers.

You also have to realise that people do these arts for different reasons and in different mindsets. We all grow and learn differently! Its all part of the fun! I think its good to teach if that teaching is wanted BUT more importantly I think it is good to guide. Now, when I say guide I dont mean that you give the person advice or make them do anyhting specific. My friend (I love you! Andrew) always just said little comments on the way! He said 'just play' all the time! And to stengthen my example I can say that I actually took it in when he said it but the realization didnt come until I DID 'just play'

Since beginning to play as opposed to learning moves. I have found so much style and originality in my moves and in my spinning/manipulating that now I am quite happy to pick up any object and 'just play.' BUT I had to come to the initial realisation first and that was all within myself. Guided but within myself!

It all up to you at the end of the day. You can have a great teacher and still not overcome yourself! They key if the self because for us to do anything we have to know what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you have an objective be it concrete or metaphorical you have something to look for to hope for. If you just play you also have an objective. my objective these days has been to try to get away from the teaching and into my own thing my style and expression.

Simplicity IS amazing and I have only learned very difficult moves by breaking them down and showing my body how its done step by stpe. In that you are TOTALLY right!

Anyways... I will try to not make this TOO long...


I think you are ok in teaching but realise that your students might not be looking for the same things you are with these arts and that is not something you can jsut teach someone. You can only show! it is the individuals choice to take it onboard or not. Dont blame yourself or anyone for that matter for not understanding. there are reasons for everything and I was very ignorant about this whole manipulation thing once but I loved it so much that I went out and looked for it in all places I could. I made it part of my journey! It was a contious (sp?) effort. Again it was within me. The limitations I imposed on myself were what I had to get away from. I had to free my mind. You cant free anyones mind. They have to do it by themselves for themselves.

Go ahead and teach it you think its right for you! Be happy about what your doing and why you are doing it but realise that it will take some people years, months, and (can be done) days to realise what it can be about. Whatever it is, I hold it deep in my heart and feel as strongly as you do!

Complements on the thoughtful post! Thought provocing indeed!

much love and hugs
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:thanks guys. felt nice to read those.

and just for clarification the only reason i mentioned the "advanced" thing was to try to say... I GOT NOTHIN ON JET LI. man, that crazy be-otch can really fly. check it out.

drome, so much of what you said really helped me so very much. my chest feels all gooey. when you said that i can't expect a student to have the same goals or ideals as me, i realised that i have had an attachment to my actions and results . i felt responsible for the effect i could have in other people, when i just have to have faith that if i reside in a good place the effects will be good, and even if they aren't i did my best. just like in life. all you can be is the best you can be, and that is usually more than enough to have a good effect. you are amazing. geez, is anybody here NOT amazing or what?

sooner or later i'm going to have to come to terms with the fact that my personal un-dogmatism has given rise to a "belief?" in two disparate things . i don't believe in good or bad, in a non dualistic taoistic sense, but i also believe in karma and a boddhisatva path, and that my actions must be aware and good. but i guess the master said to grasshopper in Kung Fu, "sometimes you have to chop off a finger to save the hand" and there is no negative, only mind. sometimes i guess one can be too hard on oneself. we are our only enemy.

man if bender sees all these cartoon/movie quote philosophies he's gonna freak...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
"sometimes you have to chop off a finger to save the hand" and there is no negative, only mind. sometimes i guess one can be too hard on oneself. we are our only enemy.

man if bender sees all these cartoon/movie quote philosophies he's gonna freak... Respect to you!

No negative! I think that is too true!
And you are too right when you say we are our only enemy!

Funny isnt it! Once you change your perception of the world the world goes and changes in front of you. I have seen and felt it happen! Its an amazing feeling!

We must just let all be and more than anything let ourselves be who we are. This way you realise that its all not that bad its only the way you look at the situation that counts...

I hope all is well for you arashi!

Oh and I wonder where bender is! He is usually on the case in a jiffy!

Much love and hugs to all reading
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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shads
member
Location: WA
Member Since: 30th Dec 2002
Total posts: 36
Posted:Everything you said really hit a chord with me.

When I first started to learn fire it was to overcome a fear. I'd listened to two of my friends die in a fire a couple of years before hand, and I was really afraid of fire. So I really took it up originally for an emotional reason. I am proud of myself that I got over that fear, and in the mean time also conquered my fear of performing in front of other people.

When I perform these days I perform with 4 guys, 3 of which have been playing for 5 or 6 years, the other has been playing for 4 and I've been playing for 2. Yet they always seem amazed when I get the most compliments for fire as I'm nowhere as "technical" as them, I don't do nearly as many moves or anything. But I think it's because I learnt my own way, I practised until I got it and I brought in moves I learnt from other places in my life and really wanted to put movement and expression into it. Where I find the boys do technical moves, with very little expression.

I find myself in a teaching position frequently, in fact the guys have named me the best teacher in the group. And I hope thats because my aim is to teach the basics and teach people to develop their own style. People often ask if they are doing a trick "right" and I simple ask them if it works, if they can get out of it, and if the answer is yes then they are doing it right, it might not be the trick they were trying to learn, but that is then their trick, and part of a way they can express themself that comes naturally to them.

I spend alot of time teaching planes, if I am teaching tricks, like weave to reverese weave, then I become a bit of a task master, because i believe in teaching people the planes, how to use them, and not to force the poi, unless its a specific thing you want to do. If you're turning around you turn 180 degrees, not 160.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I teach I go at it with the approach of teaching the basic moves, and teaching the planes as best I can. I find this is the best spring board for anyone wishing to go further with fire. If they get bored of practising the basics and getting them down to near perfection, then I don't think fire is really for them. But once they've got their planes, and they have their basics, I'm willing to help them discover larger and more technical patterns, but with an element of who they are still within the way they play.

At the end of the day, I'm agreeing with all you said...including the fact the dragonball ROCKS I don't think teaching moves through written text is the way to go, but workshopping with people and communities is the best way to teach. But I've learnt alot, about the toys, the people, and about fire so I think these forums are fantastic all the same


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:wow, shads, that was intense reading about your friends. my support and respect to you for facing your fears like this. i too have a friend that was severely hurt by fire. so i notice you are from WA, and i wonder if i know the folks you hang with... eros, perhaps? what's your crew called? PM me sometime if you wanna.

and yes, drome, all is very well with me. i just went to visit my grandpa who is dying of cancer. he is half cherokee and he faces it like a true warrior, without fear or reticence, but he will not go quietly into the night. ahhh, bittersweet life, how the minutes drip by. he makes me proud to be his progeny. i wake up each day with a vigor the dead would envy, and i see the tragic joy of life without lapse. think i'll go smile at someone and watch it catch on.
thank you all for your thoughts.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Kev
member
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Member Since: 4th Jan 2003
Total posts: 83
Posted:Nice thread.

As a complete beginner, thinking this way helps me keep things in perspective. I am waiting for my first set of poi to arrive (hopefully tomorrow!) and I'm taking a look round the site in the meantime. When I see people describing really complicated moves I sometimes fall into the trap of thinking 'OMG I will never be able to do this! I cannot even conceive how that would be done!' and it seems pretty daunting. Then I realise, WTF I have never even TOUCHED a set of poi in my life yet, of COURSE I have no idea

SO hugs to you for a dose of open mindedness and sanity!


- Honk if you love peace and quiet!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Arashi...hypersensative scorpio..you mean, they exsist! Well, being the apitamy of the Libra that I am, I see this from many perspectives, which I will get into after I sit from my standing ovation. Very well said and nicely done.
I am also sorry if you got the impression that anyone is upset with you here, I for one, am not and would come to you if I was.

That being said......

Teaching is an amazing thing but it comes with limitations. In what we do, as in so many other arts, you can teach technical skill but not really grace, fluidity, personalized style or personal expression. These things either come from practice and constructive critisicm or are born in people. Some people never get them, no matter how hard they try. This does not negate their art in anyway, but it changes the dynamics in how to approach people as a teacher.

In teaching technicalities..herm...It goes along with the saying "Give a man fire and he is warm for a night. Teach a man to build the fire and his world is filled with light." Giving someone the gift of basics and play is giving them a foundation to really create and be. Yet, I find that many I have come across do not have the patience to learn this way. We are part of an instant gratification society and so that is what people want of teachers, instant answers. This then leads to the quandry, do I just give them what they want and get students because of that, or do I do what I feel personally is correct, give them the basics and constructive play (where I can help them correct the mistakes if they need) and not get so many students? It's tough when it is your bread and butter, but I still opt for the 2nd choice. I learned by teaching myself, everything, literally. Once I found HoP things became easier but I still spend more time learning on my own than with any teaching tool, and it works for me. Yes it is a slower pace, but I am in a much better position to create, I feel.

Point 2. If teachers focus only on the tricks, and these are passed down the line, who developes the new ones? Who pushes the art from the stagnation that would ultimately be the result? What happens when the personal expression gives way to technical basis? It is through play and personal expression that the art of spinning, of anything, is truly born. And with people teaching moves..then the students adapt the style of the teacher. I have seen it and wept for it.

Now, about the people who have the weave down and think they are badass. In their own terms, yes they are, but they forget there is so much more left to go, truly. They don't need gentle reminders of this as they will figure it out on thier own. But what happens when these people become teachers? According to a friend of mine, a teacher is anyone who knows more than you do, even in the slightest degree. In a life sense this is very true. I can learn from just about anyone, even if it is what not to do.
However, I don't feel they should be teaching classes. I don't feel I should teach classes, outside of the very base beginner classes, and I have been doing this for awhile. I am still early in my developement as well.
So then, at which point are you not a "beginner"? I will always be a student. This is true for everything I do. But where do you sit up and say, yead, I guess I am good and not have it be ego? I see the instruction books and video's out there, and really there is nothing new for me to learn from that medium, not that I have seen yet. And it is disappointing. There seems to be a time when play is the only preacher we have, if that makes sense Arashi. So then, if we all have ego's and it is human nature to do so, then at which point are we allowed to go public (though never nastily or competitively) with it?

What I think is the most discouraging really is to see the person who gives it up because s/he feels that there is no more. Or the person who only wants to learn what others have, and never want to develope for themselves. This is where the reality of the "fadness" seems to hit the hardest for me.

Spinning is alot of things to alot of people...an expression, an art form, meditation in motion, something cool to show off with, a release, a hobby, a passion, a profession, a dance.....and with each of these incarnations comes a new set of expectations that the rest have to not only accept but try in some form to find a relationship of understanding with, otherwise the community at large suffers from the negativity borne of the misunderstanding. If that makes sense? In this scope, there is no space for ego, just understanding.

Just a few exceedingly random thoughts....
Thanks arashi, just for being you.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Pele! YES! Well said, well said indeed!

There are some state festivals I go to that cater to a pagan crowd, and I am one part of a group of performers that often put on a fire show as a part of the festivals. We enjoy sharing the art of fire performance with the crowd.

We come from all over the state: Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio. Each group from each city has a distinct style. When we work to pull the show together, we cross pollinate, a bit. For me, it gives me a wealth of talent to watch, and learn from. I thrive on the ability to learn from all of the fire performers (spinners, staff folks, fan folks, sword folks, etc).

During the most recent festival, I found myself being approached by not only future newbie spinners, but also by spinners with as much experience as me, asking, "Teach me!" I was flattered, and am flattered that someone wants *me* to teach them.

One of the experienced spinners asked me to teach him how to move.

*blink* How...do you do that? Again, I was flattered, but...going from the basic moves to actually moving, and dancing with fire...to me it is a personal step, and one that is quite hard to "teach."

I find that people approach me about learning how to spin after nearly every performance. It is, perhaps, one of the highest compliments someone can give me. I've inspired someone else to learn.

Afterall, I was inspired by my friend Brian first, TanTien (Austin, and who knows about the spelling) second. I was fortunate enough to have a mutual friend with Brian, and the Houston crowd. They were very good teachers, giving me the basics, but letting me find my own since of "how to move."

Enough rambling from me!

Pele, your words struck home in many ways.

I am teaching a spinning class...I just took it over from Brian. He and I both teach the basics, but strongly encourage the folks taking the class not to shy away from learning how to move, and finding their own sense of style. I also tell them that learning and teaching are two way streets. Undoubtedly, I will learn from them as they learn from me. Hopefully, they will learn and see spinning as an art.

SpitFire...rambling and rambling.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:This wen’t through a big Edit this morning

Good Evening Arashi,

I promised a reply, and here (I hope, if, I ever manage to finish this message) it is;

So first up, big thank you :hugs:, that is wicked post, easily the best I’ve seen since I left HOP and asks/discusses a lot of what I though about, for most of December, damn I wished I’d listened to the signs and mailed you.

Ok. Not really an offering of answers (You know, I know, I haven’t got many of them) but here’s some of what I’ve been thinking about recently, its stuff that’s followed on from discussions with Rozi, Dom and post above. The connections to the questions above may not be immediately obvious. But I wrote, twice this last night, but only this was organised enough in my head to post, a lot more to follow I hope.
________________________________________
Movement Meditation - Breathing
(starting real easy)
Was looking into a bit of tai chi / chi gong and yoga last week, with application to stick and poi, they were highlighting:
Balance
breathing
motion
posture &
concentration

Sounds a lot like playing with a staff to me, (like stick meditation the way I play, rather than fire show type playing).

Though I've never consciously focused on breathing before, in stick, just generally open and relaxed. So went out for a monster practice session (staff and clubs) and was trying to do yoga like breathing, and be aware of where I was tensing and holding my breath. At a basic level just to synchronise movements with a smooth long out breath is lovely, then a gentle unhurried in-breath is lovely.
It’s really good, to be experimented with, in the future, but I think it might be a big progress step for me.
_________________________________________________
Rating your own ability against others
aggressive competition in Poi, no good thing.
Like you were saying, it sounds like rubbish to me.
How can I compare my poi spinning to that of another poi person.
What do I compare:
Spinning on the same night?
When we are both the same age?
When we have both been spinning for the same number of years?
When we have both been spinning for the same number of hours?
When we have both had the same amount of teaching/ watching others spin?
And anyway, I almost never get to see myself spin
It’s just rubbish. Competition out of poi.
___________________________________________
Wanting

“I want to learn how to do 5 beat Behind the back weave….”
“I’m trying to conquer the one-handed btb btf ttn hyperloop ;0)”
And all the rest of that shit that I myself have thought and read in others too many times.
Lets end some of that now.
There is another way…

Being in a state of wanting is not being happy, not being filled with joy. We become like consumers. Consumers of poi tricks.
Consuming is about desire, being in a state of wanting, we are trained by advertising, by the media, by our peers, by our culture. To want.

A craving to consume arises as long ass we satisfy the craving. Once we do, the ghost of the craving carries over and we look around for something else to consume. We get into the habitual pattern of becoming consumer orientated. Perhaps we learn a new poi trick. We play with it for a while, until the novelty wears out, then we look around for the next trick that has the magic glow that we can do it yet, or evern better that no one we know can do it yet. Soon we haven’t even got the shrink wrap off a new trick when we start looking for the next one. Being able to spin a trick and doing it doesn’t seem as important as wanting it, looking forward to being able to do it.

We have made an occupation out of craving. We can never find satisfaction, it is like drinking water to quench thirst.

This has many names, I call it consumer behaviour, its exactly what we see with the landfill that we buy from the malls and high streets or our western “civilisation”.
I think, in Buddhism this has the name the hungry ghost realm.

First up, waste more effort wanting, If we put that effort into doing learning the trick we would learn it much quicker.

But I spent the first 3 years of my spinning as a hungry ghost. Never did I stop to enjoy everything that I had learnt. All the ways that I had developed in myself. Always wanting the next move, each move was like a junky fix, It
and never thinking that I was ever good, never thinking that I could dance.
I didn’t enjoy the spinning in those 3 years anywhere near as mush as I could have done. (didn’t waste it mind you, it got me to here, and I did a lot of teaching, I wont spend my life regretting my past, this is not a regret, read arashi’s signature)
I didn’t enjoy life as much as I could have, And not anywhere near as much as I can do now.

So,
Is this sound familiar to you?
If you’re honest with yourself, is this you.
Is it time to stop, time to look around time for something new?
If so have a crack at poi lesson one below, its pretty quick, It should only take 3-6 months. But its more fun the longer it takes.

___________________________________________

Lesson 1 (I think) – This should take about 6 months .
This is an attempt at lesson 1 for people who are already spinning a bit. And who want to improve their way with poi, and maybe who want to start looking more at the spiritual and meditative aspects of poi:

Things to start doing today before learning new moves.
Moves are like water,
Train for purity and quality,
not more salty water, you can’t live on salty water.

1 Learn to spin very slowly, then even slower than that. (if you don’t 100% believe this is totally important and haven’t done it, trust me, do it, its really important.)
2 Now while your spinning totally slowly starting with the simplest moves, re learn all your planes until they are perfect.
3 Starting with the most basic moves you know, go through every move you know and learn it really slowly fwd, backwards.
4 Starting with the most basic moves you know, go through every move you know and learn to spin it in any position you can think of (both directions).
5 Starting with the most basic moves you know, go through every move you know and learn it in all 4 times/ways: Follow time, butterfly, parallel and split time.

If you’ve done that, there is another lesson 1 floating around that I can post.

___________________________________________


Drome, Arashi, rosi, Dom, everyone...
shoot, what you got to go in here now.
really happy to have caught a little bit of what I was trying to say though

Till we meet in Rome,

:hugs:

Glass
_________
be

[ 11. January 2003, 00:54: Message edited by: glass ]


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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:

edit:

Drew

"You are beautiful, and thats for sure"

I hope we one day get to have that chat with Cass in person. You are trully an amazing soul!

*HUGS*

[ 11. January 2003, 03:07: Message edited by: dromepixie ]


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:*bump* to the pretty thread!

I hope many have bothered to read its writings as they have helped me loads.

respect to loving people
love and hugs
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:respect to you drew, sounds all to familular with constant conversations i have with kato. its all true and all to relevant, so many good points, i would love to pick out many, but am far too drunk to respond in an informative manor right now, so i will be polite and just say thank you for much inspiration from you these past 12 months i have known you.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Mineiro
member
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 262
Posted:*places feline amongst pigeons*

although much in agreement with mst of this thread...
drew i beleive beauty can come from competition. the great poi competition is never judged except by its participants of themselves, and each and every one is striving in their own way to become better/smoother/cleaner than they used to be. I have never met anyone nor heard tell of someone who has said 'hes better than me so i will never talk/spin/compare with him...' each person takes an opportunity to learbn from each other and compare themselves if not against others present then against previous incarnations of themselves as spinners. if this is not judging and competition then what is? this is not competition with negative connotations as would seem to be how you percieve it but competition breeding creativity and beauty....

*removes cat, comforts pigeons*
*leaves*
love
R


brain replacement...anyone?

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Not so drunk as said post before stated, fresh minded, new name.. time to play some game.

Right, where to begin:

Back to the beginings of when we first picked up our poi, on our conquest in search or the bigger picture. we venture to the not so waste of time internet and ask it a question, that said question was probably entered as "poi", the search engine says.... homeofpoi. wicked, we think, the first point of call to many of us out there and here we are still today as it happens helping others with their conquests of bigger said picture, and to add to this hugh database of history in the making of said "poi". we are all here makeing said history, in helping others and bettering our selves and growing in ones own abillities. will we find resolution in our search, probably not, probably never, but we can try.
This leads me to a situation we have all put our selves in, how we look up to others around us, who our idol's are in the spinning comunities especially on HOP, Jo Derry springs to mind, so does Danger Boy for those who recollect such names of pillars of our comunities.
We are where ever learning what ever move said idol does in said clip of said idol spinning that said researchee downloaded from said Home of poi. and we are thinking how on earth does he'she do such a move? the answer lies within ones self, to find the answers from within, how do they breathe? how is their posture? what mood are they in? what are they listening too? how are they that controled? are the focused? what are they focused on?. The origional emphasis is set on learning the move, what is missed out is very beneficial to every one. drew listed some very good points quote: Movement Meditation - Breathing
(starting real easy)
Was looking into a bit of tai chi / chi gong and yoga last week, with application to stick and poi, they were highlighting:
Balance
breathing
motion
posture &
concentration these are all beneficial factors to learning, it takes us how many months of learning, meeting and discussion of these things to finally figure out the essence of poi and learning poi, but not only poi, i too am venturing in to the world of sticks and contact stick gratuitous to minero and nix and glass i have found some thing i have been looking for for 12 months now and i too can now partake in said venture, gratuitous to tempest for enlightening me in to said venture two "doubles", but enlightenment number three in my said life ventures to be as my idol in doubles mr infamous minero, the slickest of the slick double 5foot sticks doing double contact.
you all know who my idol's are, i know who your idol's are, together it is us that are making the history here, lets carry on with our ventures and become drawn in to so many others, its a big world out there, people are learning more quickly than some of us ever did, it is time for progression.

may i add, that said Newcastle Brown Ale made me post this, and subsequently gave me inspiration and increased motivation, posture, focus, will power, concentration. oh plus gave me the relife to finish said post and roll anoth fucking CIGARETTE......i'm gagging.

:edit:.:end:


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:It's taken me hours but I've read all of this thread today - in little chunks so that I can go away and mull it over in my mind.

And I have come to this conclusion:
I cannot possibly add anything constructive. Everything I agree with and empathize with and some stuff I am yet to understand is here in front of me.

I just wanted to let you all know how much I appreciate some sense, intelligent discussion and beautiful, inspiring subject matter to read in my free lessons Thank you all for taking the time - It's made me smile and think today.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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.Morph.
.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK
Member Since: 23rd Mar 2002
Total posts: 669
Posted:I can only re-itterate FNF's post. A beautiful thread, appreciated massivley!!


Thanx

[ 24. January 2003, 14:33: Message edited by: FireMorph ]


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:So, I have been thinking more about this and truly what we are discussing is the Socratic methodology.
It just dawned on me the other day!

In his great wisdom, the philosopher and teacher Socrates developed a way of teaching where the tenents are based on not only enjoying the learning experience but having the students take a real hands on approach to learning. After all, they are there because they want to learn and what a better way?
Socrates, in essence, believed that to give students the building blocks to their own education, then they could learn anything they desired on their own. Really it is the gift of self-education. The teacher was there merely as a guide, not the giver of all answers. When a student became stuck, the teacher gently guided them to figuring out how to get unstuck, not doing the work for them.
In this instant gratification society, this ideology really gets lost, but I think it is invaluable. I try to teach it to my son, as my parents taught it to me. Much of what I have learned in my life is because I became curious and did the research for myself. It is how I got here, in fact.
I agree with this methodology whole heartedly, as I mentioned before, but I wanted to add in that this approach to teaching is a named philosophy of education, and there is a great deal available to teachers on it, for those who are interested.



Hey Glass...what's the other lesson one? What you described is how I learned to spin in the first place! LOL

[ 23. January 2003, 11:11: Message edited by: Pele ]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:i totally agree pele, metodology is a good way of theaching others our skills. not just basic moves but basic learning skills involved tht we have found ourselves, make this first hand a teaching method and students find things easier to understand and learn new stuff for them slves.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yes yes yes yes yes

that is how i teach in a nutshell. that is how you change the world, by changing how we change ourselves, by teaching us all how to be vigilant diligent warriors for self transformation.

god leto knew this, and laid before mankind eons of enforced peace and responsibility and benevolent controlled freedom. eventually mankind evolved to be a race of self sufficient, aware, agile entities.

i'll be back later for more my head is stewing but i gotta go swing a sledgehammer. building a geodesic dome


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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.Morph.
.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK
Member Since: 23rd Mar 2002
Total posts: 669
Posted:I've just read this old thread. It's an article by Meenik about Tai-Chi theory and poi. Nice article, I thought this quote works well as good advice for learning:

quote: Poi act as an external manifestation, and magnification, of inner circles. If you can't keep the circles straight within a given region of your sphere of movement, you don't yet understand how to extend yourself into that region with full control or awareness.


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:been letting this stuff brew in my head for a while. so many great things being said, i want to go back and respond but it's so much to chew on!!! but i'll do it!! so glad we're in a tai chi sort of place gosh, we should all get together and start a movement and see if this fire dancing thing catches on my troupe is named after the dantien, taoist point of transformation of the spiritual fire

truly we are blessed. from scattered corners of the earth, held apart by dense vibration, floating, swimming in solid music, timestreams of negotiation, against all probabilities of outdated newtonian matrix belief systems, our kindred spirits have all happened upon each other. do you feel less alone? i do.

okay i'm going out to get a winning lottery ticket so i can have lots of money to fly everybody here to texas so i can put you all in my coat pocket and carry you all around with me. like cute ickle kittens. don't worry i'll put padding in the pocket. and some headphones so you guys can jam to a "big" sound system at all times. and some latex sheets and baby oil for the perverts *cough PELE cough* hope you guys like to party.

okay enough with the lovey dovey hippy stuff.

fire morph while it's in my head before i forget... i was playing with my whips one day... some of the cracks possible involve multiple dimensions/ of energy directions, all traveling in direct response to movements of the body which are in themselves just as complex. in other words the s-curves don't have to stay flat, they can twist around and do spiral shapes in multiple planes, but the hand must have a great amount of complexity which mirrors or premanifests the shape of the whip when cracking. geez what a mouthful. anyway there's this one day when i figure out this really cool spiral shape multiple crack, almost like a spiral hyperloop with only one chain. i immediately switch to my other hand to figure it our with the left and boy is it tough. as soon as i get it, though, i feel a rushing sensation in my brain, as if a part of it received blood, or oxygen, chi, whatever, that had previously been unused, dormant... the sensation was remarkable, and i got the move perfected on the left simultaneously. the move was literally a fractal, a dimension in my sphere of awareness, complex and mathematically figurative. the same as perfecting a plane behind your back or between the legs, but way moreso. like chain hyperloops, man, talk about precise scalpel incisions in a sphere of the peripheral awareness...
our dormant brain. we have only begun to understand the concepts of multidimensionality. the mind of an octopus IS another dimension. children move in "schools" on a playground, yet they are not simply avoiding predators in numbers... they like each other. duuuh. which dimension are you creating?
like meenik i also think of chains in terms of their positions in a sphere of awareness. okay and conicals and spirals. and hammers . but you know, the basics are spherical. all possibilities. so if we extend our awareness into our chains then we have extended the speres of our awareness. much less rope dart. awareness-a-rama. when practicing tai chi, we practice taking in all that our eyes can see, all the way to the periphery. and beyond.

whew that ended up being pretty verbose okay off to bed but i'll be back.

[ 24. January 2003, 21:08: Message edited by: arashi ]


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Oh sure...I get called perverted and then you talk about whips! Hello pot...this is kettle...!

And who told you about the baby oil and latex sheets??? (a better way is to strip a waterbed to the plastic but we won't go there... )

I, for some reason, had thought Tan Tien (your group name) was derrived from the center of energy in the body balancing center in Tai Chi, also of the same name. Hmmmmm, learn something new everyday.

I was with my Bellydance teacher for several hours today and she is having difficulty in some of her classes with this exact same thing, or the girls who want to do it immediately and then give up "when it is too hard". She has adopted a "maybe this isn't meant for you then" attitude that I find very funny. I'll comment more later!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:dantien and tantien are the same word. kind of like chi and qi. i think it's because one is japanese and the other chinese.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:wow. finally got around to reading this thread. i didn't know until now it was a question by myself that swayed arashi to post his feelings on the subject. funnily enough, it was a collection of posts on the same subject that made me hunt it down and read it.

before anything, i want to say i agree with a lot of what has been said here. there are some points that have been excellently made by people experienced enough to have a view on the subject. i have only been spinning for about a year which is why i never read this in the first place (i don't teach formally) and thought that as a result, i would have nothing to add.

the posts that prompted me to read this were not the same ones that prompted arashi to write it. i completely agree with how he helped me out on that occasion. i asked for some advice and was given good tips on how to improve what i had already discovered and subsequently build on it. more recently i asked how there were possibly so many variations on a moveset that i had only discovered a few of. i feel on this occasion the theory was taken too far.

i believe that there are levels to the approach of teaching how to teach yourself and that there must be a balance between outright teaching a move with all the places it can go and just teaching the basics of that move and letting a person discover variations for themselves. example, if you teach someone the butterfly do you just leave them for two years and wait for them to come back with a butterfly weave? when and where are the best places to drop hints and which ones do you give?

now arashi may have a point when he says that if you get stuck, most of the time its a matter of brushing up on the basics and i have no qualms about saying that i for one am very guilty of rushing through them. when i began learning poi it was a steep learning curve - my good friend became basically my mentor for a summer. if he learnt/discovered a new move he would show it to me and explain the breakdown. 9 out of 10 times this was way beyond my capabilities but what it did was allowed me to prgress at (what i found to be) an alarming rate. example; he showed me a butterfly weave before i could even do a reverse ttn and as a result told me at the time i wouldn't be able to do it until i had more of the basics down. the good side of it is that i could see the connection that learning the combinations of the basic moves would directly lead to the more complex stuff. i used to be a very impatient person and was of the opinion that if i was not learning new things it equalled stagnation. i have tried to curb this in recent years and poi has been a large factor in changing that aspect of myself. however, if my friend had not been willing to show me the more complex moves early in my poi path and keep me interested (when they were still beyond me) i may not have stuck with poi or worse, never found the virtue of patience.

i think it is just as important to realise that not only are there different styles of teaching, but that every individual has a preferred way of learning also. a good teacher will adapt to that - not necessarily change completely but at least have some flexibility in how they teach.

it is only in the last three months or so that i have discovered how to develop what i am shown into other things. until this came i had a fairly low opinion on my spinning - i moved very little, had a style quite similar to that of my friend that taught me, and although i had a good library of moves, i was more than aware of my limitations in using them.

drew's lesson number one is possibly one of the most valuable pieces of advice i have been given. i'm only about halfway through this exercise but am seeing the benefits all over. having said that, teaching good technique is only half of the story - if i know a move exists then if i ask for a demonstration, most of my friends are willing to share the knowledge needed to do it. example; i asked to see a btb waistwrap a while back and was shown all four variations and a full waistwrap. i didn't understand a full ww at all but i went off, learnt btb ww's and it led me to discover full ww's for myself.

coming back to the reason i am writing this, some people are naturally more creative than others and will thus develop their skills in a different way. we could compare it to playing a musical instrument, say the guitar - at first, we learn other people's songs, later we will develop our own style and might play the song with a different rhythm to the original, later still the creative among us may end up writing our own songs. i have never written a song and don't intend to but that does not mean i should stop playing guitar, does it?

my style in poi is developing later than my technical ability but i have found that it often occurs this way round for male spinners. i don't think it is for any of us to say that this is the right or wrong way round to learn. additionally, it is unlikely i would have worked out moves like hyperloops/airwraps for a good long time if left to my own devices - instead i was introduced to them early and subsequently found variations for myself from that one basic example. when i reached an end to what i could do with them, i asked for more examples and was told just to continue playing until they came to me. this is not an encouraging way of teaching - maybe a definitive list is not what i needed but hints as to how to move towards discovering these variations would have been a little more productive for my preferred style of learning.

what i am trying to say is we each will have taken a different path to get to where we are with poi - just because we are now in positions to help others to get there does not mean we are in a position to tell them the best way for them to go about it. i discovered late the benefits of a full set of basic moves but i know i personally would never have been able to see this in the earlier stages of my learning.

hope this all makes at least some kind of sense and please know that it is only the way i see things and i have been in this game for a lot less time than most who have posted about this so far - maybe my opinions will change as i improve but i also hope that does not cloud my memory as to how i felt when i was just starting out.



[ 04. March 2003, 09:56: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:dude, you are taking my silence the wrong way. i'm a busy guy. physical therapy, stretching, engineering prototypes, choreography, talking to pretty girls, setting up my sculpture studio, learning how to use these new computer thingies, there's a lot for a guy to do in this world.
sorry if i got you all excited and then i didn't finish the explanations yet, but i have to admit i felt a bit underappreciated and disrespected by the responses on the board. i have worked and danced my ASS off for a LONG time, made many many MANY sacrifices in my life, to discover for myself the things that i have, and really i don't HAVE to share anything, i do it by choice and altruism and respect. do you respect ME in return ? if you knew when the last time i kissed a girl was you'd laugh, and i'm not THAT bad looking right now i am typing a lot about how to do moves for my book, so it just seems silly for me to spend a long time typing vague text only explanations to post up here when i should be typing for my book. but i do anyway. so relax a bit, nobody is pulling some head trip on you.

the thing you haven't caught yet is that to teach you the stuff you want to know, we have to broaden your base. learn new basic things. concepts that will unfold things, but it would be silly for me to try to teach you every single move individually. we have to start with pictures and text together, or you need to fly here and get some lessons or something. either that or give me a while to finish!!!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:hopefully the above post read with a sense of funny in it. if not here it is.

look, coleman, i feel what you are saying, i agree too. i'm not trying to control what you learn. i just can't devote ALL my time to helping, i've got a life. i gotta boogie or i go crazy. man i need to go dancing this second! but dude, i don't know everything, and man, airwraps are really complex math, a whole language that you guys don't have. yet. so please chill. also please keep this in mind. they are just more moves, and eventually we will learn them all, and truthfully they are just the same, when you are in the zone you are in the zone. i will face my zone and allow it to pass through me. and yes, hopefully i will even be able to show them to you in a way that will allow you to still discover the moves for yourself as well...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:cheers arashi. i realise you weren't trying to control my learning but like all of us have more pressing issues in life than trying to teach in a medium completely not suited to the task (teaching poi through only text is not exactly 'fun'). also i completely respect the fact that if you don't want to, you have every right to not reveal your knowledge at all.

here are some things i've already talked to yourself about but thought would maybe spark some discussion on this thread (it deserves to stick around for a while yet i reckon).

before that though, i'd like to say that any advice you give is greatly recieved and appreciated


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i think poi in the form it is today, being a fairly young art has a great divide between the spinners around right now. many of them (maybe like arashi here) were self-taught over a long period, essentially the pioneers if that is a suitable word. others are comparitively new but are learning very fast from sites like this and the old school spinners.

although very different in nature and purpose, there is a distinct parallell in skateboarding over the last 20 years. the pioneers (who are still around and respected more than ever today) have taught (mainly through video) the younger boarders what they have developed over the last decade or so and in turn, the 'new generation' of skaters have taken that knowledge and advanced it. if they had been left to develop in the same way and at the same pace as the originators, it would be unlikely for them to have advanced the scene as much as they have.

having been learning poi for just under a year i can tell you that the 'pioneers' are the people that i have come to respect and admire the most. my inexperience has highlighted for me the undeniable value of time invested in not just 'learning' but self-teaching and self-improvement - it leads to the development of a number of distinct styles, the ability to take a new idea and run with it and (as arashi has already pointed out) complete sets of variations on the basic moves (allowing them to use their techniques in far more places) and turns them into 'second nature'.

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i just read this (by arashi) in another post:

"i will have an online personal lessons forum soon, so we can do virtual video lessons... even online worldwide spin jams!"



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah, but... you guys are gonna laugh when you see how horrible a dancer i am. i look like a teenage orangutan sugar spazzing on ice cream in heat with some rope taped to its arms. and lip piercings

and yeah, that online thing would be cool, huh. first i gotta learn how to turn on a computer.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

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