• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Help! > Teaching Moves (or...The Longest Post Ever)

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 123456
arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:hoooboy. yes this post is long but hopefully rich and interesting and thought provoking. if you don't care about teaching people then don't toture yourself and skip it. it's taken forever to get it down in words but, if just one person reads it all (lol)and says something helpful or that they were touched, it'll have been worth it. it's gonna take some setup, so nobody misunderstands anybody here... i'm not flaming on anybody, but i feel like this all needs to get talked about, at least for my own sanity. it's been running in my head for some weeks now, ever since coleman asked that last question in the jedi thread, and i am gnawing myself with the responsibilty of knowing the answer to his question. (now don't you dare think this thread is about the jedi thread in any way, or anyone involved in the jedi thread, or even about hop at all) it has been talked about before, but i don't really think like this. it's about egos and moves, and my dilemmas of teaching, and how it is best to learn new moves. that having been said...
first a story.
there's a cartoon called dragonball, and it is so awesome. it is about kung fu, "diligent practice," what we all do , and the philosophies therein. there was an episode recently aired that really struck a cord in me. bear with me here, this will go further

this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."
well he tries and tries, for a long time, but the cat is simply much too fast. he seems to know what the kid will do before he even does it. after a long while, weeks or months or years, who could say, the kid figures out how to get the bottle, and anticipate the CAT'S moves, i'll keep this short by just saying that much.
anyway as he figures it out, and grabs at the bottle, he drops it in the skirmish to get it out of the cats hands, and it falls over the side of the platform to the ground miles below. well, he is obviously pretty distraught. but the cat, to the kid's surprise, congratulates him anyway. he retorts, well, how will i get strong without the water? i'm doomed!
but the cat says....the water was only regular water. you climbed the pillar, and got strength. your tenacity and training, and hard work, and learning how to anticipate my moves, is what have made you a greater warrior. the water was only a ruse, a goal.

i say this, because to me, moves are like the water... they aren't really all that. if they are just tricks, without a solid basics training, then they are just tricks, and they are fun to do, but the movement inside of them is what matters. if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN , and your personal expression will suffer. i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?
i think that it is where a lot of my own inspiration with chains comes from, from the joy of discovery. teachers can be a crutch, and when they are gone, you will still limp. a good teacher teaches one to not need a teacher. you can dance just as beautifully doing a three beat spider(weave) as with a 9 beat conical isolation fractal spider (yup ). but to the beginners, heck even intermediates, actually this is to everybody, myself included, i say work on the basics. if you are stumped, work on the basics. don't know how to do a move? it's simply because you haven't worked on the more basic moves that led up to it. that is all. building a pyramid with a skinny base makes a small pyramid. i say pyramid because that's what's up, poi are fractal in nature, and follow sacred geometry, like everything else in our universe.

but, see, that's still all just about teaching yourself moves. let's go further. this is where it gets touchy.

another dragonball inspired thought .
there is a line. a line between confidence, and arrogance. confidence is a good thing, it is natural when we are in our power, those times when we are most ourselves and the chatter in the head isn't controlling our very spirit. humility is it's bedfellow. but if we start identifying with the external too much, and lose some of the humility, we cross the line into arrogance.
now, don't get me wrong. it's one thing to be lighting up, and be having fun, like, "hot damn everybody! GET YOUR GAME ON and let's rock this friggin party!" or to figure out a cool move, throw up your arms, run in circles, and be like "goddamn!! I AM THIE SHIZIT YOOOO!"
but you cross that line when you rate yourself against others. everyone, myself included, has done it to some degree. it gets harder to avoid as you get further along your skill level, and usually this seems to center on what hard moves you can do. why is that? it seems like yet another trap of karma and the physical plane.

objectively understanding all this ego and fire society stuff is hard for me, because, god, how do i say this, i usually know more about chains than most people i run across, even tho i'm not the best by any means, so i am in a teaching position usually, and try to be a really humble person, so i can only observe people's actions from a certain perspective.(on top of that, i'm really shy and most people take that to mean i'm snobbish, until they talk to me and realize i'm nice. but maybe that changes how people act toward me) but basically i see people getting ego'd out a lot here in america, and then turn their colors pretty quickly. i am so much more excited, inspired, touched and wanting to learn and teach with someone that has fewer good, clean controlled movements, and wants to share and help people, than by someone who can do a five beat weave but can't control their planes and thinks they are better than everybody. usually those are the folks that go around acting like they know everything, but the problem is once they find out i know more, they treat me a certain way, cause in their minds i'm "better" and they either look up to me or get competitive. therefore the only time i see mr. ego's true colors is when i first meet them, and lotsa times see a lot of ego. but even if they are egos after they see me dance they want to be my buddy so they can learn moves.
so if i was not as good, they would still treat me the way they did when we first met, i suppose. is that how it is? talking about this stuff to people around the states, and in other threads here at hop, with pele and other pro folks, and beginners alike, gives me that impression; that there are more often than not out of control egos all over the place. now, that's okay, really, everybody has an ego, and we all have issues in different areas, and i don't judge harshly because i'm a complete NUT barely on the verge of sanity... but some people have competitive, violent ego PROBLEMS, and have a lot of work to do, you've met them, you know who i mean. and just like with rampant consumerism, the disease of babylon. they don't know that they do, or they wouldn't do it anymore. they just do, and it'll take time to get over it. so is it ethical to just broadly teach people things that they would learn anyway, given patience and discipline, but at the same time can use to fuel their egos thus making true spiritual growth even harder? like would you teach the world how to make a bomb with a tooth pick, if you could? or does the good of teaching far outweigh the spiritual suffering caused by the misuse of power? for instance, why don't monks just teach everybody in the world how to meditate and do levitation, fixing our energy crisis? just an example, tho grossly oversimplified, but there are reasons that hidden teachings are hidden.

the only thing that makes a person better or worse is their lack of or attention to safety. that's where some people just plain suck.

this thread hopefully will be about the ways we learn, and whether some can be more spiritually fulfilling than others. i wanna hear how someone that learned hard stuff right away, and can't discover moves, feels about this. does the hump get crossed anyway? or is it detrimental? am i wrong to think there is a better way to learn, or does it even out in the end? here's some reasons why i want to know...

i'm having some really cool discussions with people off board that choose not to post here. i know also that some of the most advanced, badass, super ninja action mofos in the world, really cool, spiritual people that probably would have great things to say, (things i wish they could say here, for the teaching benefits) don't post here either. somewhere along the way in their lives words and such have made communication with people sucky.... now i know that it is really hard to talk and get subtleties across with only typed words. especially if people are always joking and using reverse psychology as humor, like i do . but it can be pretty frustrating to deal with all the people stuff, and most people just avoid doing it and keep to their own practice.

on that note let me say really quickly that i hope nobody here is mad at me. i sort of am getting the feeling that i may have rubbed everybody the wrong way, but i'm not sure how. probably by putting my foot in my mouth, as usual, and joking and not being quite understood. so this thread is also about trying to bridge any personal gaps i may have inadvertently created, by telling you exactly where i'm coming from. or maybe i'm being a hypersensitive scorpio (gee imagine that).

anybody knows i have shared a lot of knowledge about stuff, especially here at hop, and also that i show anybody that i meet what they want to know. but i have really held back in the teaching moves aspect here at hop, and just try to help people along at the stages they are at, and i seems like others do the same. i'm not saying that to show off. honesty, i just feel a little guilty.

now remember, like i said, the basics are what's important. here is an example, one which explains why i have so much to chew on over this learning issue: to explain how to correctly do stuff like butterfly hyperloop buzzsaws, for example, with the style and terminology out there in the general public is darn near impossible, and to explain how to do them, and other second harmonic moves correctly , requires a lot of basics training in a totally different style that would be way too hard to do in just words. but i sure feel bad when somebody like coleman, who i wanna help, and who i'm sure would love to know, asks how to do it and i don't have a month to answer or, if i even should. i mean i could answer but not the right way. so then i consider the possibility of doing a whole big crazy involved video instruction thing, or a book with pictures and such.
but therein lies the rub, and the point of all this friggin typing* rubs fingers*-
is it ethically, spiritually, right to do all that? especially if i were going to involve money and that whole world in the process? i don't have a problem getting money for my hard work, especially since i don't really buy expensive things, so it's not really about that, but it does "raise the stakes". the healing and growth of all of our spirits are what matters to me, and are the effects i want my actions to have, so with that i need help deciding. really the moves aren't important. the meditation, the discipline of practice, the sharing life with your fellow humans, that's where it's at.
like in karate kid, mr. miagi shows him how to do kung fu by painting a fence. course little ralph macchio just wants to know how to kick butt... but if you spend your time with the basics, the kung fu unfolds like a newspaper, and you can go out and KICK SOME COBRA KAI A$$. lol
but here's the point of this thread... is it right, as a teacher, to teach moves? cause even
here at hop the elders seem to teach some basics, and then usually give hints, nudges, directions, or answers. and i think that's the best way.
you guys, there are people out there that are sooooo friggin amazing, and they don't do this teaching moves stuff, because of these selfsame reasons, so this issue goes beyond me, i think... a lot of people, even here i've read it, say to us, sage, or me, or other _intermediate_ people that i know, that we are advanced . hah! especially since somebody, a friend, taped sage goofing off and sent it into a contest (tee hee), out of benevolent reasons (man we're all poor, and sage sure has shared and used the heck out of that equipment). but we are not all that advanced really. we have a certain style, which does lots of crazy moves, and others have another style, but we are not even the most advanced in the world. IF YOU ONLY KNEW what was out there. this is a great big world. the problem is, there is a lack of teaching out there, because once you start teaching moves, and not technique, or dancing theory, and all the other stuff that goes hand in hand with this art form, people start thinking that they are what matters. and out of naivete they even think that they are some strange concept known as "best" and so most really good people don't teach that kind of stuff... the real stuff, if you are not teaching yourself, needs a flesh and blood teacher, who is wise, or you are just learning the ego karma and not the stillness. and that's a trap.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete Topic

Larry Laffer


member
Location: Athens,Greece

Total posts: 6
Posted:Hello to Everyone!

Although I've found this site a pretty while ago, I rarely get to write in the forums, cause being a newbie there's not always much to answer to.., but I do watch many of the threads, and already feels like I know most of you guys:)

Anyway, while reading most of the humongous posts in this thread, I got that big urge to share my thoughts with you, so here it goes..

There's a martial art that I've been practising over the last few years, that is called Aikido. Now to me, I'd say that Aikido could prove a really difficult art for someone to learn. The main idea, is that you must relax and let your body harmonize with your soul, your centre, and eventually with the attacker. So when the attacker finally attacks, it will be more of a dance, where his "attacking" energy melts with yours, so when your move is done, the attacker and you are splitted again, but yet still harmonized. For the untrained eye though, it just seems like you just make a move, and you throw the attacker down.
Well, by saying all these, in my dojo, the place where we all practise with a teacher, we found a really nice way to learn Aikido. Each day, we will go there, and start practising moves. Somes times it will be basic moves, some times it will be somewhat more advanced ones.. The idea thought, is that a firstcomer, me(somewhat of an semi-advanced guy), and a black-belt practisioner, will all practise the same exact move, but it's sure that we'll all learn something completely different. The firstcomer will learn how to position his feet and arms for the specific move.. I will learn how this move will flow better with each oppoment and how to use less muscular strength and more energy for it, the black-belt practisioner will learn.... I don't know what the hell he's learning:) but he does, cause they say so..
So, I guess I'm trying to make two points here.. first, Aikido is cool:) go try it someday:) Second... I don't know if trying to squeeze all the background and philoshophy of an art,into a newbie's head is a good idea. Most times, I fear it will scare the newbie away, never to try it again. In addition.. I believe we all find new moves fun and refreshing, and keeps us intrested as days pass.
In Aikido, there is a move, called "tenkan". it's a basic move. I'm firmly positive, that if someone would keep practising this same move for years and years, he could create the rest of the moves himself. But this is a long and...quite boring way to study aikido, and I'm happy we're not training like that in our dojo.
I believe, the exact same rules apply for Poi, and every other art.

So if someone asks me for a move, I'll just show it to him(on either art:) ) If he manage to make the move, but it seems somewhat unstable and non-fluent, I'll give him 1 or 2 pointers, and then let him be. Explaining the whole theory behind each move, will scare him and bore him, and some times, it will also make him think I'm being a wiseass. I believe that with practise, each one finds his own ways to learn, and creates his own view and theory on each specific view.

Well, there goes my view:) Still, as some say, "Countless are the paths that lead to the top of the mountain. But they all share the same view once they get there." My point is just, I don't believe it's unethical, to teach a basic or advanced move to someone when you're being asked to. It's up to that person, if he will put your instructions into good use or not.

Hugs to everyone!I've always wanted to say, that this is by far the greatest forum I've ever been into! I find peace within your threads:) (everyone been into other forums, will know what I'm taking about!)

Peace!
LLaffer


Delete

Taniwha


member
Location: Aotearoa

Total posts: 138
Posted:Much respect to u Arashi, and your culture. Your insight brought me back to hop.

Its all just smoke and mirrors

Delete

Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Did it also make you read the PM i sent you?

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

Delete

fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:do you guys get the feeling you're getting left behind? That everyone else is progressing and no matter how hard you practise, how innovative you are etc... someone else has been there and done that and already moved on?

Cos that, to me, is the worst thing. That nobody will look at me and say: 'wow - wish I could do that'. It's always 'oh - there's someone who does that but even better....'

Just a thought

I only get the real elated 'yay!' feeling once in a while now. It used to be every time I picked up a toy. I think I'm in need of a change.....


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:its like my mum always used to tell me fairy - no matter how good you think you are, there's always someone out there better than you.

[unless you're 3 times world poi champion and inventor jay gilligan of course ]

seriously though, this is a great attitude to have.
it ensures you keep your modesty intact, even when you can do just about everything (see mr thorburn for a lesson in being ridiculously modest).
it means you are not suprised or upset to see someone doing the things you do differently (and when you get to the stage you are @, there is only different - not really 'better' or 'worse').

and anyway, this is a fairly rare skill so remember; for every person out there that is 'ahead' of you, there are 1000 that are behind


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:yea man, I remember sitting at the front for finals of the poi world champion-ships, the first time that mr Jay gilligan won it. Man was that the most Amazing poi spinning or what he almost took the piss right out of himself

me thinks the fairy underrates herself. she much betterer than she thinks she is. much.
Eeeep


Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Glass, was that the time you got drunk and decked one of the judges in the semifinals? Or was that the Brasillian Open?

Which reminds me... you still owe me a leather jacket after that little incident with those Tokyo cops. And I am NOT going back to Japan no matter how nice a hotel the tournament organizers put us in this time...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:post deleted - i'm happier now

[ 17. May 2003, 09:42: Message edited by: fluffy napalm fairy ]


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:
awww, a fluffy hug!
i agree with coleman, there's always somebody better. i have the same demon, but mine tells me that i have to be better than myself, he chides me, like he grabbed my tail and won't let go. i wish i wasn't such a perfectionist. i always have to be better, go deeper, learn more. my feet hurt, man i love dancing...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Damn it napalm I really liked that post.
It would be quite groovy if you could rewrite it so that youre happy with it oneday...
that would be cool thanks

I don't know if I'm able to teach anymore. I reckon I'll have to try to get back into it.
A


___________________________________________
The construct is not water. I don't know what it is, but it is not water.


Delete

bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:"Worry not that no one knows of you; seek to be worth knowing"- Confucious

who cares about being #1! it's a subjective measure anyhoo, methinks! competing spoils the fun! the only person you have to beat is yourself, darnit!
burn it cuz you lurve it!


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:You just need the right student Glass.

Feel like free room and board in New York for a week or so? I think I know a guy who needs to learn a waist wrap.

Where do I sign up for lessons?

***
Actually my silliness does raise an interesting point. As a teacher myself (chemistry, not poi) the student is every bit as responsible as the teacher. A good student can still learn from a bad teacher and vice versa.
***
I feel like I'm a pretty good beginning poi teacher because I really understand and can explain specifically how and why each move works because that's how I understand it. As opposed to the "Just get really stoned and feel the move" crap which sometimes people try to pass off as teaching.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

.Morph.
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK

Total posts: 669
Posted:BUMP - for anyone who hasn't read this thread.

Edit: For maximum enjoyment get something to drink, maybe a light snack too, & relax.

[ 28. October 2003, 02:37: Message edited by: MorphingMark ]


Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by MorphingMark:
BUMP - for anyone who hasn't read this thread.

Edit: For maximum enjoyment get something to drink, maybe a light snack too, & relax. Can I add go pee first and sit in a comfy chair...or print it out like I did!

Hmmm...never did come back to add the stuff I meant to. Now I will have to reread and see what it was I meant to say!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:at least it isnt like trying to read the either/or thread.

still havnt got round to that one.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

.Morph.
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK

Total posts: 669
Posted:Pele, no u must stick to my rules MWUHAHAcough-cough-HAHA

Delete

Looper
GOLD Member since Feb 2004

Looper

grasshopper in training
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 124
Posted:Mwaa Haa haa. My first post. biggrin
wave

I have been spinning for about a year and haven't really had much of a chance to see others. I began when i saw a friend spinning and naturally, until i felt ready to make poi of my own, i spun with her (just observing, not really being taught). Until recently i knowingly and obviously copied her style. It is only since she moved away that i began to analyse my own movements and use it as a way to express myself, rather then do one trick after another.

I definitely agree with doing it extreeeeeemly slowly. Thats all i've been doing for a few weeks and it feels soooo nice... as you say, almost like meditating, trance like. Even if you don't light up, if you really use your body to roll and turn, and concentrate on breathing and your own extensions with the poi, rather then which trick to do next, it is intense.
Wouldn't have thought to find people travelling the nobel path on a twirling page... although after the last few weeks, i can see the connection. smile

I really just wanted to congratulate you guys on an excellent thread, although it is probably dis-used and this post will just float, turning occasionally, through the dark abyss of cyber-space. Thank you all anyway. tongue hug


*shyly grinding toe on dusty ground*
Thankyou Arashi ubblove




There is a world made of air, one of earth and one of water.
And there is one made of fire, and all of them fight for supremacy. They are fighting now, in my head.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:your welcome, though i did nothing and to thus it has returned. my actions are what lie directly in my path. (which right now is - thinking only of her eyes, and the way she put her hand on her chin whenever she finished her sentence.:rollseyes)
actually i feel like this thread has been the opposite of misused. i know it brought two kindred spirits together, at least. tucked away in the corners of the myriad of words, it is. talking like yoda, i am. glad you are spinning, we are. this thread always feels like a big snuggley bankey to me hug


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Ok, Arahi thats an amazing post.

I cant believe it took me this long to read this, and this reply will probibly be horribly lost and out of context with where the thread is but...

******WARNING High cannabis quotient, may contain large amounts of fillofocoy, err, pillophapoi.... philsaopoi...



on the path, and the hungry ghost.

we all follow a way, To quote a recent episode of 'monky' "the sages say the fastest way to enlightenment is shurely your own". For me the way grew up in solitude, many hours with a stick, working from first pricipals, playing and jumping, spending two hours doing my favriote thing. For me there was always three areas of practice, drill, flow and discovery. Drill places you inside, flow opens to creativity, and creativity to discovery. inside this framework I Iearnt fast, its what I do, beyond moving or swinging or thinking, I do learning. This is a way in itself, and like all ways leads to the same place eventually, you can learn and still discard knoledge, the more you learn the more you do this. This is my way, and yes im ridden by the hungry ghost, but i dont mind, cos hes headed in the same direction.

on being better.

I am better. I am better at poi than other peaple, I have more understanding of poi and staff, the nature of the physics and movements possible to both. I am better at dancing, finding rythum, independat motion, and spacial awarness. I am better.

In an infintae spectrum there is no best.

This is a total double edged sword, as arashis post seems to scream at me, and Drews makes more explicit. There is no best, but some have looked further from origin point than others. It is simply time and energy, spent. Big Egos always do small poi, dont worry about it.


on lesson 1.

yeah, but lesson 1 is usually the last. peaple want to put joy in thier poi, leave the twelve bar for later, and later, they will love it. Whats the hardest 'move' in poi?

The weave, everything after is easy.

whats the hardest lesson in poi?


on feilds.

for me we have broken out of moves, and into lessons. Ive been thinking in terms of feilds, each timing for swinging is one feild, each plane for spinning is another, there is a feild of longarm, the feild of hyperloops, the feild of wrapping combos and atomics, the feild of weaves and the feild of flowers. All of thease feilds interlock, cross are contained by and contain the others. Arashi has it exactly right, Poi is fractal.

Ive been trying to do my teaching through feilds, trying to present a whole concept of movement, and link it with others, cover all moves, spot the intercetions between feilds. illustrating a basic movement, and its rammifications in terms of patterns to learn, and break.


on discovery.

There is an important thing to remeber with all creative activity. There is no possible end to it. Think of all the ways you could possibly manipulate a stick, this potential is empty space, it makes all things possible. each and every venture into this is discovery, and weather your adventure is inspired by inner drive, or travelers tales, or even slideshows of thier vacation, to investigate emptyness is to start the journey, some go far, some stay near, others get bored and go home. its is simple to see the road and walk on it


on learning.

learning is a constant dialoge between learning patterns, and breaking them.

through the learning of patterns we open up new movement to the dance.

on breaking patterns we join that movement to the dance.

dance is flow, it happens in the body, outside the mind.

learning is power, through the application of mind.

both learning and dance come from the Tao.



on teaching.

peaple come to hop to learn. In the year before i met any other spinner better than me, All I had was hop. Still, now my only connection and insperation for long periods of time is this bord. And it works, through text I managed to get enough ideas to attempt the next stage, because thats where I wanted to go, and there was no-body there to show it. We are a disperate comnunity, some 6000 strong worldwide. and I would say that the first reason to come on hop is to learn, and why would you learn out of books? Because you cant find a teacher?

Those that understand do understand, and are gratefull for it. It dosnt matter that you are putting out there in the public domain some of the most [censored] up sick [censored] you know, because I can garentee that someone will understand it, eventually. and thoes that dont, dont matter, they ask thier own questions, "how do you do the 5 beat weave, ive got 4 but..." and there should be enough stuff on here to refer them to previos dicussion, especially if we start collating some of the best threads in a new FAQ or news site. The poiinthepark news section is a good model, with scope to cover a range of topics, I encourage the 'adepts' who find the board to distatefull to at least submit some articals. Let the bigguping/flirting/asking/bitching/ego/preggo/stupido arguments happen on the board, but please. Dont Stop Teaching because you dont want to stop learning yet? do you?

we are not above you. we are below you. we are you.


this no flame.

Tom wave :smoking: tongueeace:


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
please. Dont Stop Teaching because you dont want to stop learning yet? do you?

we are not above you. we are below you. we are you.



ubblove


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Ok does anyone want to join me for a game of "spot the stoner" in this thread
its a bit like "where's wally" but without the wooly hat. tongue

"Dont Stop Teaching because you dont want to stop learning ..."

umm

You ask for the cat to give you the water.
and what if the cat gives you the water.?
You'll find out that its just regular water.

I've seen where arashi is coming from.
and I agree with him on this one completely.

Technically he is the best I've seen,
light years ahead and primarily developed his technical in isolation.
but more importantly, this pussy cat can really dance, in a way that I though only women could hug eek biggrin

The first person for 3 years to show me some poi theory that I hadn't developed already, like a new way of understanding, a new model, one of the last big bits in the jigsaw of the G.U.T. of poi.

And he is still learning, still training, developing himself, still developing his skills.

I've seen the promised land,
and I left my poi there. biggrin

I've seen everything technical that I ever need to see with poi. And I've seen the most beautiful dancing with poi (sorry arashi, that title still goes to lady, shes got a certain "je ne sais pas.".)

On Poi theory, I'm happy, I'm complete, theory of motion geometry structure and interrelation. I'm not claiming I've got the G.rand U.nified T.heory, but I've got as good theory as I need, and I've learnt everything that I needed to learn from poi (for now.). I'll pick them up a bit here and there, and have a play. but I don't feel like a poi swinger any more.
so I'm putting down poi and picking up girls, :LOL: Something else I learnt in austin.
they're much better to dance with wink
I shall return to them one day. (and if I lived in austin, I'd swing poi every day)

"Sometimes it is better not to solve the problems of others
as a way to avoid solving your own problems."

Hiya Arashi Extra Dry, how are dem belly dancing ladies nowadays?
And coleman, hug get to bed, you gotta work in the morning.

The new HOP, its not our home anymore

One day you too will hang up your poi.

peace
Drew

(with apologies to almost everyone for an entire post or cryptic double meanings and hints. late night rambling when I should be sleeping or working)


Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Quote:
You ask for the cat to give you the water.
and what if the cat gives you the water.?
You'll find out that its just regular water.



Did bing crosby never take dance lessons? Dose Jet li no longer train? Is Jet Li better than his sensi?

you are missing the point, you are not the water, you are the cat. The water is just the way, its always water, its the cat who makes the challenge. You can no more give me the water than you can psycically trasfer all you body memory to mine, however, you can gaurd it, and challenge me to get it from you. If the cat sat on the water, Id never get it, its only through fighting, an action of dialoge does the cat teach the aprentice how to be what he wants.

Quote:
The first person for 3 years to show me some poi theory that I hadn't developed already, like a new way of understanding, a new model, one of the last big bits in the jigsaw of the G.U.T. of poi.

On Poi theory, I'm happy, I'm complete, theory of motion geometry structure and interrelation. I'm not claiming I've got the G.rand U.nified T.heory, but I've got as good theory as I need, and I've learnt everything that I needed to learn from poi (for now.). I'll pick them up a bit here and there, and have a play. but I don't feel like a poi swinger any more.



Fine, you have everyhting you need, but you wont share it, why? I for one am no-where near any kind of G.U.T. im not even happy with what ive got, which is less than you. shure its comming, and shure i keep working things out for myself, but if something is so ground breaking that even you havent heard of it, dont we deserve to hear some of it? why should we work out everything from scratch? you didnt.

where is the diffrence between getting your information from a person or a website? A person is better, and can tailor the information to your needs, but a website can still hold the information, especially when it comes to theory, and shure some are going to come across that information at a time it dosnt suit them, but then they arnt the ones who are really going to make full use of it.

Theres an argument in here that its 'better' for someone to work everyhting out themsleves. This argument wouldent get five steps in any other feild, if all you were given in physics was a set of scales, a laser mesurement device and a partical acelerator and told to get on with it, nothing would ever progress.

Why would you play poi every day in Austin? because of the weather? or because there is more reason to play? more to learn? Hop is the reason to learn for many peaple, its what inspires, challanges and re-assures peaple, hop is our austin, but the teachers arnt as good.

Quote:
The new HOP, its not our home anymore

One day you too will hang up your poi.



yes, the hop hasnt been your home for ages, ever since somebody called you arrogant in the jedi thread and you ran off to have your discussions elsewhere, where the great unwashed couldent bother you. Fair enough maybe, but none of it came back, and the jedi thread, half complete and mostly deleated now still stands as one of the fullest discussion of technique on the board.

Did jazz arrive on the shores of america fully formed? Did one man discover quantum physics? Have another read of NYC's post about london, ask yourself why comunity, diversity and sharing make for a richer experance for everyone. Whos ego looks bigger here, mine, or yours?

its very little use saying "watch out kids, theres more out there! *hint hint*" becuase we know fine well theres more out there, much more than you can tell us, but you can tell us more than we already know, and maybe we come back and tell you somethings you dont know?

I find it very sad that some of the best peaple, thoes best placed to inspire and educate thoes around them, refuse to do just that, either because of some simplistic theory of teaching only what needs to be taught (irrelivent in a data-sphere, like hop, see above) or selfish motives of not wanting to give away 'secrets'. Shure they took you ages to discover, and suddenly everyone knows, but thats the way a gift economy works, where did you get the base to start your discovery? who discovered the weave? Its your duty, to the dicoveries behind you to contribute to the dicoveries ahead of you. everything else is greed and pride.

So you dont want to learn anymore, bullsh1t. So youve hung up your poi? what are you doing with your hands now? One day i will hang up my poi, but only because ive gotten into anti-gravity ski-ball.

If the cat left the water ungaurded, the little psion would be dead by now.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:p.s.

teaching is not about solving peaples problems.

it is the duty of the student to solve the problems.

it is the duty of the teacher to pose the questions.

infer.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:"Big Egos always do small poi," - So, so, so, so not true.

Poi Theory / G.U.T. / 'Understanding Poi' - More and more I don't even try. Apart from the very occasional rambling I do I don't actually think about it any more. I don't think about what's possible technically, I don't strive to find the most complex hyperloop I can do, I don't care too much what everyone else is doing. My poi have just become an extension of my arms. Poi move in circles and so do my hands when I'm spinning. It's that simple really.

I don't think I'd read the first post fully before. I know what the man is saying, and I agree. I've refused to teach people isolations, hyperloops, 5-beats, etc... because they didn't actually have any control of their poi. Does that make me a bad teacher? No. For the same reason that I wouldn't teach quantum mechanics to 7 year olds before I teach atomic structure to them at 12. In a way this is what HoP does, lets people get ahead of themselves and often it takes them a good while to recover.

"it is the duty of the teacher to pose the questions." - After your criticism of Glass above this is surely ironic.


Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:*please accept my apologies for the ludicrous length of this post ubbangel *



i was gonna write a nice considered post supporting my nx? quote but then i went back and read the whole thread again.

my second post here (the one with my comments on the progression of modern skateboarding) already encapsulates my belief in the importance of creating, sharing and building on a knowledge base over time.

and anyway, i got a new favourite nx? quote (that i have paraphrased cos i'm not down with the scion):



"If the cat leaves, there is no 'magic water' at all"



ergo, having a teacher is far better than not.

summed up nicely in the sentence "if I lived in austin, I'd swing poi every day".





"Sometimes it is better not to solve the problems of others

as a way to avoid solving your own problems"

reminded me of my first ever sig

"its often easier to give advice,

than it is for a person to run one's own life" smile



however, i don't think teaching a few poi moves on hop from time to time would mean you were avoiding your own problems (poi related or otherwise).





i have an almost polar opposite view to dom's last comments which surprised me somewhat.



i believe that what we see as advanced (isolations are the ultimate example) may not necessarily be so.

just because one has been spinning for 3 years before discovering a technique does not mean it is so advanced that we should refuse to teach it to someone based on our own preconceived ideas of their skill level.



i think it is slightly aloof to assume that the techniques we learnt late on should be kept back from others until they reach the same point on the path of learning as we did.



everyone has their own path and who are we to say which turnings are best for them.



"HoP lets people get ahead of themselves and often it takes them a good while to recover."



i'm very likely one of these people.

but without a steep learning curve, i would have likely given up poi long ago.

hopefully i have 'recovered' ubbangel



i know a man that could do a seven beat weave before he could do a five - he seems to have 'recovered' well and imho has turned out finer than most wink



i learnt poi solely because it was a challenge, not because i wanted to be a performer or learn to dance better or even to look good while i was doing it.

as i learnt more, my drives changed and i began to care about how the patterns i could spin looked from the outside and so on.

but my priorities are not yours or anyone elses.



i still don't dance around much with poi and i am happy with that - i'm not a performer!

i dance like my dad so i developed my style with very little footwork other than simple sidsteps and delayed turns.

does this make me an inferior poi spinner?



i think the bottom line is, i smile every time i spin.





respectfully dom, i think your 'teaching quantum to a seven year old' example is not a very good analogy for learning to spin poi.

there nothing in poi that even approaches the level of understanding required for quantum theory but i understand your real point was "you can't run before you can walk".



well, with respect to poi, i think in many ways you can.



there is the added factor with poi that the understanding can be there long before the application.



if someone asks me how something works, i give an explanation, no matter what their skill level.

this often involves me having to subsequently go a few steps back to find the person's current skill level and teaching them something more fundamental first but i never say "no, i'm not showing you that, you have to learn this first."

i show what they have asked for and explain it to the best of my ability and then, if necessary work back to give them something to practice that will get them closer to the technique they have asked me about.

they may not be able to spin what they asked about but some understanding of the theory involved and an idea of what is required to build up to it, coupled with the knowledge that it is attainable encourages them to learn and work towards it.



specifically for me, this type of scenario was tipified by my learning of the butterfly weave.



for me, juggling is a very good analogy - people understand some patterns long before they can juggle them.

for example, i'm sure most people that can juggle a 3 ball cascade also understand how a 5 ball cascade works even though it may be way beyond their means.

in my case, i understand how lots and lots of advanced tricks work because i enjoy knowing how the professionals do what they do.

but understanding things above my level doesn't discourage me - in fact quite the opposite, it gives me an incentive to practice a bit more, to learn the steps leading up to those patterns i really want to juggle.

and there is the added bonus that the fact that i understand how it works means i can tailor my learning to my preferred areas on may way along.



you might argue that i don't fully explore the earlier stages of some patterns and hence in a way have 'missed out' things and this is true.

but maybe i'm saving my creative energy to find variations in the patterns i have really worked hard to get to? smile



as long as i enjoy what i am doing along the way, why should my knowledge be restricted?





finally, drew hanging up his poi again raises a very interesting question for this thread:



can your creative energy for something 'run out'?



drew has developed much of his poi repertoire in a creative environment - i.e. for a lot of the time, his only source of new moves has been his and his peers' creativeness.

there was no-one at a much higher skill level around to teach drew when he was learning and i suspect much the same could be said of arashi.



drew has been 'inventing' poi moves for years and years (and by inventing i mean they were learnt independently of a teacher) and i'm wondering if all that energy spent means that he feels it has now become a discipline he doesn't want to spend any more creative energy on?



i might be completely wrong there but the plain fact is, for some reason drew got to level two and gave up halfway through. frown



if the answer to the above question is 'yes' and you can lose your passion for creativity in a field, then i would say that willing, selfless teachers are absolutely essential if we want or expect the art to continue progressing at the rate we have seen so far.





innovation vs stagnation.





"...show me something new..." hug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:A good teacher will tell you the answer, but a great teacher will help u work it out for yourself. Because if someone tells you, you didn't earn it, and if you dont earn it, why would you remember. In saying this i just made myself a good teacher...

Props to all who post here, cause i learn off even newbes, sometimes they can see what we dont... by being pure and un-corrupt. peace


Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:hubba hubba whatta buncha stuff.

first, thanks to coleman for restarting on one of my main reasons for starting this thread. specifically, my interest in understanding how handing advanced techniques to beginners may or may not be a wise thing to do. more specifically... whether it fosters a consumerist attitude and whether or not it fails to nurture one of the greatest joys poi can give us, which is the joy of discovering your own techniques and style, and how that joy weighs out in the long run versus the joy of learning the moves period, and whether the art will advance more in either scenario. and MOstly, whether or not someone who hasn't discovered things for themselves can even experience that joy without a lot more work, whereas you can be taught how to figure things out and be much more connected to the results.

and in a broad scope, whether or not we a spiritual beings will evolve more by playing, or by trying to learn something just because it seems like we will be "better spinners" once we know that move we saw. the "better spinning" comes from WHOLE body awareness, posture, technique, and spiritual wholeness, immersion in the meditation. a good spinner to me makes me feel inspired to be more in touch with the meditation. seeing glass spin inspired me, made me want to practice my technique and planes a bazillion times more than anyone else i've met. now i know why... [booming voice] "they call him glass." [dun dun dunnnnnnn] he is there with it. not just doing some cool move without control. everybody, even the layman, can see the difference when you are playing within your controllable techniques, and when you are extending yourself away from control just because you think a move is cooler and you will look like hot [censored].

i have been resolving this question on my own for a while and i _still_ think that, as coleman was describing, the best way to do it is to teach foundational exercises and not just "moves." and like it or not, poi are fractal, and yes you can jump ahead to certain areas and skip over others and that is fine. but as a teacher coming up with a system of techniques and a way to teach them i have to consider the progression of controllable techniques in my methodology. go ahead and jump around! that's not in question here. a newbie might be able to learn how to isolate, but do they really know how to isolate?

what we are talking about here isn't keeping secret techniques. it's about the attitudes we have toward life, and most especially how we respect our peers. (BTW glass you REALLY got me blushing here. and yes the belly girls are... FINE wink) i'm not sure where the argument has sprung from as far as this teaching and learning thing goes. from my first reading here, sounds like you have expectations of glass that he should teach you, nix, simply because morally he doesn't "own" the knowledge. but you're wrong, he does, at least as much as we "own " anything, as impermanent bags of water entrop-ising in a swirling mass of holographic music. he worked and sacrificed thing sto get it, and he doesn't owe anybody anything. and that's what i mean. talk to him as a person and a friend and not someone who should teach you just because you want to learn, adn you may realise that the knowledge IS his, and that once he shows it to you you are now CONNECTING as people and THAT is the most sacred thing. from that moment on, if you are a warrior, and deserve to be called human, you have to respect him and that knowledge, for they are the same thing... like how glass speaks with praise of the people that came before him. that is very native american, sacred and respectful. i like that about him. nix i know you respect him, and this isn't directed at you per se` but it seems there is an undercurrent there, and that undercurrent in all of society is the main issue here. that is what is destroying humanity, the belief that there is a thing we can acquire that will make things better, [water] when really the answer lies in stopping and taking a deep breath where we stand. life is tragic, so give somebody a hug.

are we all saying the same thing? yes i learn when i teach, but not here so much... i've been teaching and nudging a lot here, probably more than people realise, and i've only learned a few new techniques. so i'm not getting much back in the poi department but that's not why i'm doing it anyway. i'm here at hop cause i like burners, generally, i like to travel, this is a cool way to meet people and find out what places are like, and cassandra was just too sweet for me to not like it here kiss i do get a lot out of teaching people in person, [cause i get much more feedback, and not just a heartfelt, "wow thanks" and then lots of silence while it is getting assimilated and the learning process and eurekas are happening on the other side of the world without me] and i've gotten a lot out of writing my book, perfecting my teaching methodology. but sometimes i feel like people just take my posts and chew it up, and then naively don't know what to do next and it really borders on wasted time on my part. still though i think we are all saying the same thing. teaching is good.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so. back to post 1 then:
Quote:
this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."




Quote:

i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?




when reading the rest of the post i make below, please keep in mind that this was your path. and someone elses undoubtedly is very different(and i hope equally enjoyable smile)

Quote:

if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , and your personal expression will suffer.



i do not believe this is possible.
a twofold belief:
personal expression is not an examined subject.


not all people require to become strong to defeat an enemy, and so seek the majic water.
learning one extremely hard manouvre such as a spinning somersault to evade your enemy is not the same as learning a well rounded basis in kung fu.

but who are we/you to deny somebody the right to learn that one manouvre? if you are comfortable in youself you will not feel either superior nor inferior(after all you are not passing judgement on their life choices) and so not feel threatened by their path.if that is their goal, or part of their path then why should you not help them?

especially as:
(and this is the second part of the belief)

there are no advanced moves in poi.

to paraphrase a well known saying by mao tse tom:

the hardest move is the weave

after that everything is just a different direction.

the number of directions you can take from the very centre of your being is one for every furthest point of the universe.

tho poi as a concept is not perhaps as infinite as the entirety of the universe, there are still any number of different directions our imaginations can take those tennisballs/socks/chains/fish(mmmmmsistafirewireaquaticpoi ubblove)ropes/beamers/strings/stix/cones.

and as has been remarked upon by many a spinner before me:
'they do lots of stuff they consider basic i didn't know, and vice versa, and we had a great time swapping tricks'
and by that i mean body movement/dance style as well. not just 'tricks' in the nerdiest sense of the word.



so.

arashi you have chosen your path.
your teaching path is not mine. and i respect that. but as an alternative, hows this:

anybody who wants to learn something from me need only ask. i will provide teaching in whatever form i can at the time. be it video, text(accepting all its fallibilities, which, interestingly enough through misunderstanding produced some of my favouritest foibles with poi), in person, and so on and so forth. i love showing people tricks which to me seem as if they are the first move in a family/idea in a concept, because it undoubtedly means that when i see them again at some indeterminate point int he future they(or somebody around) will have developed that idea, and come back to me with something to make my brain bubble and tingle with new ideas(one of my favourite sensations)
(because of this, some people may have noticed i rather manically swap tricks with people, espescially when in london, or if near various people...and i apologize if this makes my behaviour at these events seem to you like i am just trying to get attention to the things I have learnt. the truth is, these sessions give so much to me in terms of personal development and enlightenment i feel i have to pay the debt somehow and doling out moves and concepts is one of the only ways i know how)

little aside there, but here's the rub:
funnily enough, i treat every move as if it were one of those "tricks which to me seem as if they are the first move in a family/idea in a concept"
and so the trick i leave in someone elses mind could be an extended windmill. or an isolation, or a btb waistwrap, or a slapback, or a clickclack, or, indeed anything they may ask of me.
because none of these is any harder or easier than any of the others. it is just a direction.

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:Quote:
still though i think we are all saying the same thing. teaching is good.



and i'm with you on that one amigo hug


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:well first
this sin't about secrets
i show people much more than a move when asked. i show them the concepts underlying it so they can figure out it's friends too. if you can't figure it out without asking, then you need to understand some basic thing before it, isn't it better to know that? but please continue your diatribe. we are all saying valid points. but don't you see? the purpose of not focusing on tricks is to adress more than the single aspected need for cool moves. it's to elevate poi to another level. one of awareness opening, focus and intent, and body awareness. you say you want the cat, well here he is! glass and i are both saying the same stuff here. moves are the surface. the icing. the peice of cheese in the maze. just like cars and ronald mcdonald and the trojan horse. the vegetarian meat and potatoes of life are not in the moves. they are baking in the oven, simmering, juicy, breathing and meditation. kinda like, hey stop and smell the roses. moves are roses too. but oooohooooh! lookit the cool plane control a bumblebee just landed on it..


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

Page: 123456