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Forums > Help! > Teaching Moves (or...The Longest Post Ever)

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:hoooboy. yes this post is long but hopefully rich and interesting and thought provoking. if you don't care about teaching people then don't toture yourself and skip it. it's taken forever to get it down in words but, if just one person reads it all (lol)and says something helpful or that they were touched, it'll have been worth it. it's gonna take some setup, so nobody misunderstands anybody here... i'm not flaming on anybody, but i feel like this all needs to get talked about, at least for my own sanity. it's been running in my head for some weeks now, ever since coleman asked that last question in the jedi thread, and i am gnawing myself with the responsibilty of knowing the answer to his question. (now don't you dare think this thread is about the jedi thread in any way, or anyone involved in the jedi thread, or even about hop at all) it has been talked about before, but i don't really think like this. it's about egos and moves, and my dilemmas of teaching, and how it is best to learn new moves. that having been said...
first a story.
there's a cartoon called dragonball, and it is so awesome. it is about kung fu, "diligent practice," what we all do , and the philosophies therein. there was an episode recently aired that really struck a cord in me. bear with me here, this will go further

this kid is on a quest, he has to get stronger because this bad guy is coming to try to kill him, although he is pure in heart. he hears about this magic water that makes you strong. it is up in the clouds, at the top of a miles high column of stone. so he climbs it for days and days, and when he gets to the top he finds a guardian, a cat, who holds the water. the cat says "if you can manage to grab this water out of my hands, you can drink it and become a great strong warrior."
well he tries and tries, for a long time, but the cat is simply much too fast. he seems to know what the kid will do before he even does it. after a long while, weeks or months or years, who could say, the kid figures out how to get the bottle, and anticipate the CAT'S moves, i'll keep this short by just saying that much.
anyway as he figures it out, and grabs at the bottle, he drops it in the skirmish to get it out of the cats hands, and it falls over the side of the platform to the ground miles below. well, he is obviously pretty distraught. but the cat, to the kid's surprise, congratulates him anyway. he retorts, well, how will i get strong without the water? i'm doomed!
but the cat says....the water was only regular water. you climbed the pillar, and got strength. your tenacity and training, and hard work, and learning how to anticipate my moves, is what have made you a greater warrior. the water was only a ruse, a goal.

i say this, because to me, moves are like the water... they aren't really all that. if they are just tricks, without a solid basics training, then they are just tricks, and they are fun to do, but the movement inside of them is what matters. if you jump too far ahead in your moves, (which is sooo easy to do nowadays because there are more and more spinners, and they are starting to be able to teach) you will miss out on correcting the subtle mistakes of the more basic patterns like weaves, heck miss out on BASIC PATTERNS EVEN , and your personal expression will suffer. i personally learned moves by doing the few that i knew existed, for years, alongside sage and the rest in my family- until we did them for so long that they were like second nature, a reflex. and since then, i've never really been stumped on moves, in fact i know more than i can really even remember, because if they are reflex the moves will show you what the next move to know is, because all moves are related and teach you themselves... it's a beautiful, joyous, fulfilling unfolding process, discovering a move, leaving you hungry for more, like being in love, don't you think?
i think that it is where a lot of my own inspiration with chains comes from, from the joy of discovery. teachers can be a crutch, and when they are gone, you will still limp. a good teacher teaches one to not need a teacher. you can dance just as beautifully doing a three beat spider(weave) as with a 9 beat conical isolation fractal spider (yup ). but to the beginners, heck even intermediates, actually this is to everybody, myself included, i say work on the basics. if you are stumped, work on the basics. don't know how to do a move? it's simply because you haven't worked on the more basic moves that led up to it. that is all. building a pyramid with a skinny base makes a small pyramid. i say pyramid because that's what's up, poi are fractal in nature, and follow sacred geometry, like everything else in our universe.

but, see, that's still all just about teaching yourself moves. let's go further. this is where it gets touchy.

another dragonball inspired thought .
there is a line. a line between confidence, and arrogance. confidence is a good thing, it is natural when we are in our power, those times when we are most ourselves and the chatter in the head isn't controlling our very spirit. humility is it's bedfellow. but if we start identifying with the external too much, and lose some of the humility, we cross the line into arrogance.
now, don't get me wrong. it's one thing to be lighting up, and be having fun, like, "hot damn everybody! GET YOUR GAME ON and let's rock this friggin party!" or to figure out a cool move, throw up your arms, run in circles, and be like "goddamn!! I AM THIE SHIZIT YOOOO!"
but you cross that line when you rate yourself against others. everyone, myself included, has done it to some degree. it gets harder to avoid as you get further along your skill level, and usually this seems to center on what hard moves you can do. why is that? it seems like yet another trap of karma and the physical plane.

objectively understanding all this ego and fire society stuff is hard for me, because, god, how do i say this, i usually know more about chains than most people i run across, even tho i'm not the best by any means, so i am in a teaching position usually, and try to be a really humble person, so i can only observe people's actions from a certain perspective.(on top of that, i'm really shy and most people take that to mean i'm snobbish, until they talk to me and realize i'm nice. but maybe that changes how people act toward me) but basically i see people getting ego'd out a lot here in america, and then turn their colors pretty quickly. i am so much more excited, inspired, touched and wanting to learn and teach with someone that has fewer good, clean controlled movements, and wants to share and help people, than by someone who can do a five beat weave but can't control their planes and thinks they are better than everybody. usually those are the folks that go around acting like they know everything, but the problem is once they find out i know more, they treat me a certain way, cause in their minds i'm "better" and they either look up to me or get competitive. therefore the only time i see mr. ego's true colors is when i first meet them, and lotsa times see a lot of ego. but even if they are egos after they see me dance they want to be my buddy so they can learn moves.
so if i was not as good, they would still treat me the way they did when we first met, i suppose. is that how it is? talking about this stuff to people around the states, and in other threads here at hop, with pele and other pro folks, and beginners alike, gives me that impression; that there are more often than not out of control egos all over the place. now, that's okay, really, everybody has an ego, and we all have issues in different areas, and i don't judge harshly because i'm a complete NUT barely on the verge of sanity... but some people have competitive, violent ego PROBLEMS, and have a lot of work to do, you've met them, you know who i mean. and just like with rampant consumerism, the disease of babylon. they don't know that they do, or they wouldn't do it anymore. they just do, and it'll take time to get over it. so is it ethical to just broadly teach people things that they would learn anyway, given patience and discipline, but at the same time can use to fuel their egos thus making true spiritual growth even harder? like would you teach the world how to make a bomb with a tooth pick, if you could? or does the good of teaching far outweigh the spiritual suffering caused by the misuse of power? for instance, why don't monks just teach everybody in the world how to meditate and do levitation, fixing our energy crisis? just an example, tho grossly oversimplified, but there are reasons that hidden teachings are hidden.

the only thing that makes a person better or worse is their lack of or attention to safety. that's where some people just plain suck.

this thread hopefully will be about the ways we learn, and whether some can be more spiritually fulfilling than others. i wanna hear how someone that learned hard stuff right away, and can't discover moves, feels about this. does the hump get crossed anyway? or is it detrimental? am i wrong to think there is a better way to learn, or does it even out in the end? here's some reasons why i want to know...

i'm having some really cool discussions with people off board that choose not to post here. i know also that some of the most advanced, badass, super ninja action mofos in the world, really cool, spiritual people that probably would have great things to say, (things i wish they could say here, for the teaching benefits) don't post here either. somewhere along the way in their lives words and such have made communication with people sucky.... now i know that it is really hard to talk and get subtleties across with only typed words. especially if people are always joking and using reverse psychology as humor, like i do . but it can be pretty frustrating to deal with all the people stuff, and most people just avoid doing it and keep to their own practice.

on that note let me say really quickly that i hope nobody here is mad at me. i sort of am getting the feeling that i may have rubbed everybody the wrong way, but i'm not sure how. probably by putting my foot in my mouth, as usual, and joking and not being quite understood. so this thread is also about trying to bridge any personal gaps i may have inadvertently created, by telling you exactly where i'm coming from. or maybe i'm being a hypersensitive scorpio (gee imagine that).

anybody knows i have shared a lot of knowledge about stuff, especially here at hop, and also that i show anybody that i meet what they want to know. but i have really held back in the teaching moves aspect here at hop, and just try to help people along at the stages they are at, and i seems like others do the same. i'm not saying that to show off. honesty, i just feel a little guilty.

now remember, like i said, the basics are what's important. here is an example, one which explains why i have so much to chew on over this learning issue: to explain how to correctly do stuff like butterfly hyperloop buzzsaws, for example, with the style and terminology out there in the general public is darn near impossible, and to explain how to do them, and other second harmonic moves correctly , requires a lot of basics training in a totally different style that would be way too hard to do in just words. but i sure feel bad when somebody like coleman, who i wanna help, and who i'm sure would love to know, asks how to do it and i don't have a month to answer or, if i even should. i mean i could answer but not the right way. so then i consider the possibility of doing a whole big crazy involved video instruction thing, or a book with pictures and such.
but therein lies the rub, and the point of all this friggin typing* rubs fingers*-
is it ethically, spiritually, right to do all that? especially if i were going to involve money and that whole world in the process? i don't have a problem getting money for my hard work, especially since i don't really buy expensive things, so it's not really about that, but it does "raise the stakes". the healing and growth of all of our spirits are what matters to me, and are the effects i want my actions to have, so with that i need help deciding. really the moves aren't important. the meditation, the discipline of practice, the sharing life with your fellow humans, that's where it's at.
like in karate kid, mr. miagi shows him how to do kung fu by painting a fence. course little ralph macchio just wants to know how to kick butt... but if you spend your time with the basics, the kung fu unfolds like a newspaper, and you can go out and KICK SOME COBRA KAI A$$. lol
but here's the point of this thread... is it right, as a teacher, to teach moves? cause even
here at hop the elders seem to teach some basics, and then usually give hints, nudges, directions, or answers. and i think that's the best way.
you guys, there are people out there that are sooooo friggin amazing, and they don't do this teaching moves stuff, because of these selfsame reasons, so this issue goes beyond me, i think... a lot of people, even here i've read it, say to us, sage, or me, or other _intermediate_ people that i know, that we are advanced . hah! especially since somebody, a friend, taped sage goofing off and sent it into a contest (tee hee), out of benevolent reasons (man we're all poor, and sage sure has shared and used the heck out of that equipment). but we are not all that advanced really. we have a certain style, which does lots of crazy moves, and others have another style, but we are not even the most advanced in the world. IF YOU ONLY KNEW what was out there. this is a great big world. the problem is, there is a lack of teaching out there, because once you start teaching moves, and not technique, or dancing theory, and all the other stuff that goes hand in hand with this art form, people start thinking that they are what matters. and out of naivete they even think that they are some strange concept known as "best" and so most really good people don't teach that kind of stuff... the real stuff, if you are not teaching yourself, needs a flesh and blood teacher, who is wise, or you are just learning the ego karma and not the stillness. and that's a trap.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ok...

will continue diatribe...



i did not imply you are secretive in all aspects. or certainly did not mean to. if so then sorry.



not having met you i cannot remark on your person to person teaching, except that i have heard good things from others....



:edit:



so.

back to topic.



Quote:


if you can't figure it out without asking, then you need to understand some basic thing before it, isn't it better to know that?





my point there was that 'it' is the basic thing.

no building block is too small to start with. i see no reason you can't learn 3bt offset7, then 5 inverted, then 5 then 3 then crossfollow in that order. (just a hypothetical example, i for one do not teach in this order) you still are learning the 'weave building blocks' that eventually make up most of the concept of 'weave'.



you are stuck on the concept that one thing is prerequisite for another, that one thing is more basic than another, that complete knowledge is intrinsically 'better' than fragmented yet potentially mindblowing insight.

i am not disagreeing with this concept. only with your reading of it.

firstly, that is only true for someone who wants to know all of poi.

secondly, we are only scratching the surface of poi. and what you consider a 'move' to me is a basic for a concept group noone has seen yet(or if they have it has been glimpsed and no more)

to return to the maths analogies

imo poi is presently at Euclidian Geometry

and tho the concepts of euclidian geometry still hold fairly well to this day, it is now a tiny part of an enormous subject, 'mathematics'. so much so that topics within this subject are so specialised only a handful of people worldwide can understand each other. and yet many of the mathematical leaps have come from a basic understanding of euclidian geometry, which, in its time was incredibly advanced yet hoarded by an elite who vaguely directed the proletariat with cryptic hints.....





smileR

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1076502650)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Cassandra


Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !

Total posts: 4224
Posted:((((((((((((( do not mind me in your serious conversation i just read the lovely words from Arashi and wanted to give him a big hug have a good day))))))))))))))

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:blue, spot on.

arashi, thats stage two, thats the first resting point. poi or staff as meditiation comes after long hours of study, the intrisic knoledge of motion and transition comes after a long and often solitary path, however, the basis of that path can vary, as blue has stated, but anyone who puts sufficient effort arrives at the first resting point eventually.

You see, infinity, like everything else in poi, works two ways. Its infintaly big, and infintly small. Fractal, weather you go in to perfection or out to exproation you eventually realise the whole nature.

thease things are eternally beutifull and unending, so why not share your discoveries, let the move you find pleasure spread that pleasure. And give us the whole mesure, we will understand.

everyuthing is here, every new idea, why withhold?

T wave

ps. I may we;ll ediot this at some point.


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:okay it's like this. last night i was finally starting to get back into my groove again with poi after basically putting them down for quite some time now, 8 months of solid dance training. and man, there's stuff one can do that you can't just pick up. not like teaching a hyperloop to a beginner. there's no way. it takes solid basics training, no way around it. but with the solid basics, they are easy. read that again. EASY.

what you said about poi being infinite and eventually finding the meditation is true. but there's more to the puzzle. for one, years and years of bad form is detrimental, injurious, and sloppy. [and hands down a clean, controlled spinner is more beautiful to watch, and has more options of where to spin.]

the koreans (i'm pretty sure it's koreans) teach archery the way glass and i teach poi, and then some. they don't even let you touch your bow for months! they teach you how to stand, breathe, release, and VISUALISE for a long time, then they put the bow in your hand. and the pinpoint accuracy and ability to correct mistakes of the korean -beginner- is far beyond the western newbie, who of course picks up the bow and the arrow and starts launching away until they eventually figure it out, and learn all that through trial and error. yes, eventually the westerner can catch up, and yes they do. but do you see the difference? along the way, on the journey, one is mindful and self aware, the other is trying to figure out things by doing them wrong. and learning bad form, and acquiring injuries along the way. and the koreans produce more champion olympic archers than anybody, per capita [or rather per archera].

ever do weight training? another example. you have to use proper form, and know how to use your arms, brace your abs, etc. while you lift, or you will hurt yourself. yes you will build muscle. but the technique will be sloppy, it will take longer to achieve the same results, and you will hurt yourself by involving other muscles improperly. whereas doing it correctly is meditative, healthy, and more efficient.

there's SOOOOO much to learn with poi! trust me! and so much to learn in life. why not do it mindfully, in the spice ecstasy, instead of like a water fat offworlder? a fremen spits on sloppy planes, cause sloppy planes can't ride worms.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Jez


addict
Location: UK, London

Total posts: 642
Posted:Ok I hope this does not turn out to be too long a post...

Firstly I agree with most of Nx's, bluecat's and coleman's comments on the ethics of teaching as I hold the same ethos of teaching as well.

However I am quite alarmed at reading these posts to the lack of respect you have shown to Glass. I am lucky enough to have met most of you in person (I still look forward to meeting Arashi) and so I hope your comments are not meant to sound as harsh as they do. What Glass believes and the attitude he has to spinning is his own right to hold, If I was Glass in this position I would feel quite violated at the demands for him to share his knowledge, what he chooses to do with his knowledge is up to him and although I may not understand his reasons for doing so, as his friend and because of the respect I have for him I would not push him to show me these things. If Glass deems that his knowledge is ready to be shared then I will stand with both ears open however I have a lot of love for Glass and know that he has to make the choices that are right for him.

So far in the above posts I have witnessed an element of flaming which I do not think is worthy to be shown to Glass and I do not think he deserves it.

Turn the situation around guys and it was something you felt strongly about and all your friends turned on you demanding such things and then turning to rudeness how would you feel. Jesus where is all your hearts that u have to be so rude. As far as Glass' crypticness in other threads I love it and gives a lot of personality to his posts after all this is supposed to be fun, right?

Luv and hugs to Glass as I think he has been misrepresented in this thread, but also luv and hugs to the others because your arguments (when not being rude) are excellent and have given food for thought.

Just my 2 cents and I could be way off the mark but thats the way this thread seems to have appeared to me.



'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:very interesting discussion going on here! smile

Quote:
there's SOOOOO much to learn with poi! trust me!



you keep mentinoing the basics that one should focus on in the beginning, and it being the foundation etc...

have you ever expounded on what you'd call 'the basics' that gets a student to where you beleive they should be with poi?

I'd be very interested to hear your, and glass too, list of basic competencies to be acheived firstly.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
a fremen spits on sloppy planes, cause sloppy planes can't ride worms.





kiss biggrin



and jez is right - i apologize if i came off as disrespectful drew hug



quote from me in another thread:



"drew - meeting this man transformed my attitude to poi. he took me from being an average spinner and slowly turned me into the technically anal, plane obsessed poi geek that i am today. and i love him for it."



jonnny moohaahaa was my main motivator and mentor and later drew taught me style, finesse, respect for basic patterns and clean plane control.

not to mention more 'technical' poi and theory than anyone else.



i have no-one to thank more for my knowledge and this is why i would consider it so sad if drew were to stop teaching poi - especially here on hop, since i doubt drew would ever say no to teaching some poi face-to-face if someone asked him nicely smile





*draws up the teaching thread like the warm blankie it is and settles down to sleep*


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yes, agreed, and good point jez. I can no more dis drew than i can help being anoyed my his aloofness, but hey, I owe him a huge debt too, and like a junky I want the action! ubblol

hug for glass, wherever he is.

wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:yep. agreed.

i misread a part of arashi's thread, and that misunderstanding led to my insulting drew. since rereading i have spotted my error and deleted what i wrote. i'm sorry drew.

and i shall publicly say i truly respect drew for his teaching of me and many others without which we woud all be much the poorer. i make no claims to 'expecting' him to impart his knowledge. my only arguements are with the manner in which he(you, cause i hope you are still reading this one hug) does so.
and hopefully some of that will become a little clearer now...:

i also pointed out (in PM) sth i realise i should now tell arashi...: i hope you don't mind me playing devils advocat a little on this thread, after all it is your thread to begin with.

obviously i DO teach 'basics' and up, including visualisation and movement, when with a long term student. and so my arguements here are not so much about that aspect of teaching, more about the ethics and foibles of teaching those you come into contact with on a limited basis, such as every once in a while face to face, via video or via HoP.

just thought i should make that clear. and it is in this aspect of teaching that my arguements arise.

apologies once again drew, and i look forward to hearing from you.
R smile


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:hey ade i haven't forgotten you. i've been using my spare time to search the old board for a decent answer to your question... time is getting scarce, been BUSY...but truly answering your question has been the work of my life for some time now!
my first answer?
take a yoga class!!!!!! for at least a few months.
for poi, if you don't want to become a yogi, and only want to do a bit, try and focus on the standing, warrior poses, really learn how to stand, and raise your arms. a good teacher should be able to show you how very slight changes make big ramifications.



-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:I totally agree. I only just figured that out recently, extending you arms just a slight amount can change everything and especially when your getting bored, u can take the same move you'v been doing for ages and turn it into something "new", well it aint really new but you get the idea, and the few people i taught love it, cause it helps expand your base. It all has to do with base, pyramids and basics. I love those pyramids Arashi, thanks man, my whole universe has changed, and now my base is huge.

Freestyle ON!!! biggrin weavesmiley


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:thanks arashi - I appreciate it, because it's talked about quite often, but I've not seen a core comptency list ever emerge - it seems to be a nebulous sort of thing

but I really appreciate any thoughts you have, the yoga one was a great start
respect indeed smile


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Ade, Im butting in a bit here, but if u want a core competency list try Schatz. Its also interesting to note that Anna Jillings combines yoga with club swinging.

With learning I think we all find our own paths, which usually includes lots of practice.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Butt away stone (unless you've been haning out with bender emulating the butting likes of llamas.....) tongue

thanks for the schatz reference - yet another reason to go back and read that classic tome smile

ubblove



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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:couple more. i'm slammed busy right now and no end in sight. here's some of my beginner class lessons.

there's such a language shortage here, i'll stick to stuff understandable in hop jargon.



glass mentioned tai chi. i'll second that, i teach tai chi stances and weight shifting from class one. it rocks.



longarm pendulums, with turns. throw in some flowers circles intermittently too. also try smaller pendulums, then stalling at the very horizontal points, and then moving your hands during the stalls. these all fit together.



moving around between split time and regular TTN in all locations, all heights. and move your feet!



nobody really does much horizontal moves, which makes no sense to me. htey are very different from vertical and each has many benefits.



1 beat butterfly- i suppose they would be "crossed weaves" where one is stacked directly on top of the other, IOW the crossovers are parallell. so you're doing two 8's almost exactly overlapping, on their side. IOW poi are always on opposite sides from each other on the outside of the 8 but cross over at the same time right on top of each other, parallel. this one is invaluable even though that probably makes no sense. {edited to attempt more calrity}

ubbloco

well at that i'm throwing in the textual towel til next time

EDITED_BY: arashi (1078309052)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:reading this thread really confused me . I never had a teacher for poi or staff . Then I went to a small convention here in Bavaria and who was there ? Robert Heart . My heart jumped , I've never heard before anything about this guy he just told me that he's doing double staff and that he'll teach me some things . That was really a crazy convention because I had so many expectations and I really wanted to learn something from this guy . But he didn't teach me many things and for me it seemed like he avoided me . Well that was really said . This first "meeting another spinner from anywhere" situation in my life made me suspiciously . Now I made the plan to go to the BJC , expecting that there are at least a few nice spinners out there in the world
wave don't want to learn from videos and texts anymore

I'm already very excited and so this thread was like a shock for me . Should all the things I've been practising for more than a year be useless ? Should I really relearn all the things ? I don't know why but even to imagine that makes me frightened in a special way frown ... after reading this whole thread I need a break before I can response in the way I want to . Damnit Iam too confused to make at least one clear sentence ubbloco



bye
duvan peace


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Don't worry so much!!! If you made Robert Heart avoid you then we all like you already! Mr Heart is all talk, glitter and ego with no real style.

If you're going to the BJC you'll meet people who will show you a lot of cool things. And if you go to the EJC you'll meet even more people!


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol@dom....

yes. worry not duvan. this thread was not(i thinkk) intended to make people feel their learning was worthless; if anything i feel it has highlighted how many different ways of learning there are.... so just play and learn the way you think is best for you, then come to the bjc and ejc and everything will change *mwahahahaha*
cause of the sudden impact of loads of spinners(and at least 99% of them lovely and helpful and unRHlike

smiles
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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novalee


member
Location: Germany

Total posts: 1
Posted:arashi, i loved your message. i have to say i'm quite new to poi, although i'm spinning for a few months now. a few years ago i was backpacking in thailand and discovered some poisters for the first time in my life. i thought it was so beautiful, but i just feared to talk to them and ask them how to do it.

few years later, last year. i still didn't know what it was they did and built my own poi to try to do the tricks the ones did that i saw in thailand. then i found this site on the net and copied the tricks in the lesson section. anyway, i could do the tricks, but somehow i couldn't link them together and somehow it also wasn't fun at all. and i thought maybe it's because i don't know too many tricks and bought a book about poi spinning and in this book it said after the basics: "time to play, just have fun!" and that was the best thing that could happen to me, because i started to play a single move for like 5 or ten minutes and now i can just "dive in" into a move, i don't know how to describe it, it's just like i'm floating with it, although it's just the basics. i'm still in developing my own style, and i still have to learn alot, but now is the time where it's making a lot of fun.

just so sad i haven't read your message earlier!


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:actually, duvan, i would hope that you came away from this thread realising that you don't necessarily have to have a teacher at first, as long as you keep working on control with the basics all over your body and playing, then you will be ready for a teacher cause they can build upon your vast base of control with refined techniques. whereas if you only try to begin with more complex moves without control you will have to spend your techer time working on control and cleaning up.
that being said i know from experience that having a good teacher from the start is the absolute bestest. i'm teaching a teenager to do BTL and pendulums and stalls and butterfly crossovers and wraps really well and she's only benn spinning for two months. having a quick learner is great, i can see such a realtime verification of my teaching techniques.

novalee, cheers, i think you are just beginning to have fun! the more those basics are there, the easier and fun-ner things will be later! it only gets better!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:found this paragraph somewhere in my archives, this'll help ade. sorry there may be some confusing terms.
Start this exercise off with the chalk grip or pencil grip in your dominant hand. Swing the chain in a clockwise circle in front of you in the wall plane, as if standing in front of a chalkboard and the chain were describing a circle on the surface of the chalkboard. Try to minimalize the amount of movement your hand is making. When you get your hand movement down to almost nothing, pay attention to the force you are applying to the chain. If your plane control is dead on, and not flopping around like a bent bicycle wheel, the force which your hand applies to the chain to keep it going will really only happen in one key moment, when the poi is between 6 and 9 o'clock. After that the wick should just steer its{ follow its true course, until it gets to the 6 again, and you apply just enough tug [upward?] to keep the process going.
After you get a feel for this, try moving your hand around. As you do, pretend you are holding a piece of chalk and not a handle. Trace large letters or pictures on the "chalkboard" with your hand until your hand is comfortable guiding it no matter where it is. Use your hand in different positions, so your wrist has to bend, sometimes holding the chalk and your hand perpendicular to the board, sometimes at an angle. This will give your wrist and hands a sense of independent dexterity. []Now try it with your other hand, and []both hands together. []Next, to make things even more fun, try moving your body around while keeping the chalkboard in the same place, and slowly twisting your wrist also. You can step back and forth so the chalkboard is closer and further away, you can bend over, put your hands between your legs, you can even turn, eventually turning all the way around so your arm is behind your back. Practice all positions with both hands.

Most importantly try turning your wrists up or down as you go, so that you can "write" with your wrist in any position, facing up, or down, or anywhere in between. [Doing this exercise a lot will enable you to do most behind the back moves just as easily as one right in front of you. To me there is almost no difference .


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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rbmnyc
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

rbmnyc

lurker
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA

Total posts: 194
Posted:I just want to say thank you - as this is the greatest thread ever - and I am learning a lot from it - especially to trust myself that having fun with my poi is part of the learning process.

Thanks for being so interested.

hug


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:*cough* oh was that me ubblol

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leeeaaaaaa
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

Member
Location: Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 2
Posted:That was really beautiful and inspiring. I didn't read all the comments, because I don't have the patience right now, your post was long enough.

It's interesting though. I was really interested in spinning when I first started, and had only minimal help in learning from real people. Most everything I learned I either figured out or started getting from the lessons here. And then I got busy or distracted, and stopped. I've picked it back up a year later and am amazed that I still have all my moves.

The part of your post that really interests me is the aspect of teacher/student. I really only know a handful of I'd say advanced beginer to low intermediate, but I haven't seen a lot so I don't really know. Anyway, the best girl I know who is also a friend, started dating my roommate at the same time I picked spinning back up, and is therefore over a lot. I had always considered her an uninvolved mentor of sorts, as I watched what she did and tried to figure it out later. She was so graceful, and ultimately fancy tricks do not impress me if they are not carried out with style and grace.

So she saw me spinning one day and was like, "wow, I didn't know you could spin, you're awesome!!!". A few days later she dubbed me her new mentor. And was like, "I can't be your mentor, you're my mentor" smile We still fight over this, but as it turns out we had two almost opposite moves, and in figuring out how to do each others, we have each unlocked the ability to many more, or at least know how to conceptualize moves we've seen, even if we're not coordinated enough to do them yet.

I really wish I knew more people in my town who spin, so that I could get together and watch.

Thanks for taking the time to get all those thoughts on paper.


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kiteman


Flying high!
Location: At the beach.

Total posts: 245
Posted:Not sure how I came about this thread. But started to read it anyway.

Thanks for that Arashi. beerchug

I'm still pretty much a beginner, and have been getting alot of insparation from the videos etc. I was amazed when I first watched peoples stuff and tried so hard to become good as quick as possible. but was getting so annoyed with myself because I couldn't do the moves and look as fluid as you guys.

Only now am I reaping the awards of keeping stuff plane and simple until it becomes second nature. The rest of the stuff is now beginning to fall into place nicely now, as I'm not having to think about the moves anymore, and just go with it.

Wish I found this earlier on.

Thanks again


If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough!

It's not the size of the wave, it's the length of the ride!

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:wow - nice thread smile thanks for reserecting it kiteman smile

when I teach I try to emphasise the concepts rather than the moves. I also tell students that the way I'm teaching them and the way I do it is just an interpretation of natural geometries that we all know, we just have to realise it.

On competition - I see it as extrinsic motivation. Its very difficult to maintain motivation when it comes from comparisons.

In cross skill studies of experts and expertise, its very rare to find anyone who gets to the top of their field without having a thorough enjoyment and dedication to what they do, first and foremost. Oh and also - in terms of expertise in a given field or body of knowledge in general ppl are not considered experts until they have been studying and practicing skills and knowledge as their primary occupation in that area for at least 10 years. and the learning curve continues increasing until you get too old to do what you are doing. Perhaps with something like dance or gymnastics there is a physical component that limits you when you get older, but I reckon with juggling and poi and most other things, there is no reason why people shouldnt be able to spend a lifetime increasing in skill.

I love what I do and I'll keep doing it for as long as I enjoy it. We are all entitled to that.

thanks again for this interesting reading Arashi. I have greater respect for many ppl in this thread because of it (not that it was lacking, but anyhow smile)

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:And thanks to you all for the thanks. I'm very glad you are getting something out of this thread. It's still my favorite biggrin

Having FUN with your poi is really what is going to make this poi thing catch on... I really want to raise the bar across the world so this can one day be an olympic sport, or at least a woldwide financially substantial art form like ice skating etc... simply standing there and doing moves can't possibly sustain your "fire" for more than a few years, or the audience for more than a few performances. and as Josh was saying...

I've been spinning pretty darn zealously for about 8 years, I'm one of those people blessed with a REALLY quick learning curve, and I still feel like i have a long way to go! There's so many beautiful styles of dance, and so many ways to integrate flexible weapons! My mind reeels with the possibilities. With so much to learn and so many that have come so far, why worry about how far everyone else is in their path, save perhaps to give yourself a goal to shoot for? Just have fun. And work hard. do bflies while watching tv or better yet smash the tv and watch yourself in the mirror weavesmiley


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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filthy 23
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

filthy 23

member
Location: USA

Total posts: 136
Posted:Yes, I remember reading this thread 2 years ago and being very moved and inspired from it... don't know why I never told you that, maybe cuz I was a lurky turkey. It was very encouraging to me at just the right moment... thanks!

I AM working.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:lurky turkey ubblol

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Riley


Riley

newbie
Location: California, Usa

Total posts: 6
Posted:Great Post Arashi. I have gotten some more complex moves down. But I never thought about focusing on my techniques. It's no wonder I have difficulty learning new moves. As far as the ego thing, I may be saying that I am better than some people, but its' because the people that I say that to, #1 they say they are the best when they learn a three beat weave, #2 they just started and they've only been spinning for maybe a week, saying they are better than me when I have been spinning for 11 months. But I give credit where credit is do. So when they say that they are better than me at the move that I just taught to them, I will let them know if they got it down faster than I did. Like I said, credit where credit is due. I admit it when a more experienced poister is better than me.

From Death And Rebirth Come The Wings Of Life.
- Myself

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