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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:anyone know of an internet site that has rope dart lessons? I really wanna learn how to do this art it seems like it would be alot of fun when mastered. I haven't had any luck searching around. ------------------We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonMost Memerable crowd saying "Hey look that dude's gonna set himself on fire again!"

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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Posted:Hey,I've was searching for a few days in a row about a month ago and couldn't find a thing except for tons of places to buy them from.Sorry

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Try looking for Wushu instead of specifically for rope dart. As rope dart is a discipline from wushu.Normally I'd do it myself for you and give you some links but i don't have the time right now.....sorry
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------------------C@ntus


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:Well now I know wushu is "WAR ART" but I'm no closer to knowing how to do it.

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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Posted:here's a book on it for $17.~http://www.wle.com//products/b312.html

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:jackie chan's "shanghi noon" has some tricks on it with a horse shoe and a rope, simmilar i think. jet li's "romeo must die" has some tricks with a fire hose that I'm sure is similar to rope dart.Most of he wu shu web sites are trying to sell something too.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Knagithis is in your neck of the woods: http://www.wutangcenter.com/
they teach Kung Fu/wushu. They dont specifically teach rope dart but i suggest you contact them as they should be able to help you.....point you in the right direction...Please don't turn round and say anything nasty about this. I've just spent the last 2 hours searching the net for you.
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hope this is slightly helpful in some way.....------------------C@ntus[This message has been edited by Cantus (edited 15 October 2001).]


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Posted:Knagi,Rope dart is a martial arts application / discipline, not just another gimmick to add to your show. You will not master it by looking at a book or a website, and to suggest you can, IMHO demonstrates a lack of respect for the martial art that you are ripping off.However, if you are serious about it, go learn from a qualified teacher in your area. Dont expect that you will just 'pick it up'. There is a lot more to it than just swingning a poi around. Josh

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Josh that's why I found Knagi that addy it's in his/her state, it's qualified professionals and they teach the whole art not just the one discipline. I had written a lengthy message bemoaning his/her insistance at learning off the net and wishing just to learn that one aspect. But my computer booted me and i lost it. Having previously spent many hours trawling thru pages and pages of sites about martial arts in the US I quite frankly couldn't be bothered rewriting it all.
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I also cannot understand why when I told Knagi to search for Wushu, he/she seems to have simply looked at one page which, i believe you can link to off this site, and then gave up.Sometimes i wonder why i put all this effort in.....------------------C@ntus


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Posted:I'm with you C@ntus.I feel that the difficutly of posting on a BBS is about equivalent to doing a web search. Therefore I dont spend much time doing simple searches for ppl posting on this board, as they have demonstrated enough know-how to get the thing they are asking for on their own.Josh

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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:There you go again josh. I do know what I'm doing. I used like 3 search engines and a bunch of differnt terms. I was just skimming over the pages lookin for lessons. Wondering if I missed anything. I'm not really interesed in learning the whole discipline, just lookin for another style of using my chains. ------------------We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonMost Memerable crowd saying "Hey look that dude's gonna set himself on fire again!"

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:have you seen the COL video? i got the idea to do the meteor type thing with an extra long poi from the 2 guys that do all the wrap and unwrap stuff. try making a really long poi and just playing around with it. that is how you learned poi right, by just trying different things? well that is how i had to do it. hope that helps a little.

anyone got a light?

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Whiffle Squeek
Whiffle Squeek

addict
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Member Since: 29th Oct 2001
Total posts: 416
Posted:okay, im gonna sound really naive here, and incredibly stupid for bringing up an ass old topic, but here it goes, im not disagreeing with Josh, but i dont really understand his reasoning, and just wish it could be further explainedim not all that knowledgable in these ares, but isnt staff and poi, also just ripping off one discipline of a martial arts form? i mean im not sure where exactly they came from, but they had to start somewhere, and when you learn them just for show, youre disregarding the whole purpose of them. So if youre gonna degrade someone for wanting to learn rope dart for show, wouldnt you have to degrade everyone who learned staff and poi for show?Just wondering...

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:The thing about rope dart (and chain whip, for that matter)is that it is very specific to Wu Shu, and Shao Lin kung fu. They are very advanced weapons, and very dangerous to learn, Where as almost every country in the world has a staff (or some sort of stick) style, the same goes for flails like poi. The Chinese martial arts have caused these weapons to evolve to a level that was never even imagined at the time of the weapon's conception, but at the same time most of these advanced fighting techniques will not look good with fire, as many of them are very subtle. Staff and Poi, in the performance context are very simple when compared to their fighting applications. Where Rope dart and chain whip are used for fire almost exactly as they are for fighting.There are those that spent long years training in these weapons that are purists. They think that taking these styles (any of them) and using them in a performance context is an abomination of their true value. I can understand both sides of the issue, being one of those people who've spent years studying martial arts, and who enjoys the fire arts. It all comes down to personal opinion and, in the end, is probobly not worth bickering about. As for rope dart lessons,The Shao-lin school out here regaurds the rope dart as a fifth level weapon, which basicly means that they won't even think about teaching it to you untill you are well past your black belt, so the chances of finding on-line lessons are very slim. Possibly even non-existant. Your best bet, Knagi, is to rent some kung fu movies like "Shao-lin temple" and "Shanghi Noon" that have rope dart scenes in them.But do be careful, you can (seriously) kill yourself with a rope dart (chain whip too), and in a number of ways, adding fire is just one more, so do take it slow and carefully.------------------If you love something, set it on fire.

Jesus helps me trick people.

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SteelWngs
SteelWngs

member
Location: Malden, Massachusetts United S...
Member Since: 8th Aug 2001
Total posts: 169
Posted:Well if you want to cut down on various web junk all you have to do is put in the traditional names.Flexible WeaponsSan Jie Gun - 3 Section CudgelJiu Jie Bian - 9 Section ChainSheng Biao - Rope DartChang Shao Zi Gun - Sweeper CudgelTry doing a serch for a few of those.------------------Blessings to all, Peter "In motion, move like a thundering wave. When still, be like a mountain.Rising up, be like a monkey. Land swiftly and lightly like a bird. Be steadylike a rooster on one leg. One's stance is as firm as a pine tree, yetexpresses motion. Spin swiftly and circularly like a wheel. Bend and flexlike a bow. Waft gracefully like a leaf in the wind. Sink like a heavy pieceof metal. Prey like a watchful, gliding eagle. Accelerate like a gusty wind." Wushu Proverb

Blessings to all,
Peter
When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.

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Posted:ok in clarification - what I meant was that rope dart is a very difficult tool to manipulate properly, and I thought at the time of this topic being posted (it was a long time ago...before I was a mod) that Knagi didnt appreciate the subtlety, history and complexity of what he was suggesting 'could be mastered from a web resource'.There is nothing I'd rather see than a professional rope dart exponent going for it with a flaming wick on the end.So specifically WS, I was objecting to Knagi's suggestion that rope dart was something that could be mastered from a few lessons on the web, as I considered that a bit disrespectful of the time and effort martial arts experts put in to perfect the techniques. I have the greatest respect for people that really do put in the floor time to learn something (anything) properly, and I *do not* object to people performing martial arts techniques out of the context of battle. Josh

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Neph23
member
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
Member Since: 24th Nov 2001
Total posts: 62
Posted:Im pretty sure i still have a welt on my head from when i thwaped myself with the chain whip... But they are oh so much fun
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Join Kung Fu... they will teach you all you need to know
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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:I found what I was looking for. There was a marshal arts compition on espn. Staff nunchuck and rope dart. Some of the staff ppl were pathatic anyone of the more advansed staff ppl on this board could have whooped them. Heck the guy who won it slipped on a palm spin. I will give the guys credit for the backflips though. The nunchuck comp was awesome mostly stalls with screaming and lots of acrobat type stuff. Then the rope dart guy came on with a weighted flag at the end of his 5' chain. There's were ppl laughin about him just walkin out holdin a flag. Someone said "Bet he could kill you with that flag" And of course I knew what it was befor he even let it unwrap from his hand. I noticed the way he used it was the same as poi. No wrap releses like in then kung-fu movies you guys mentioned. Just a smooth flowing circles. The style was for the most part combative with the body, the poi as an accent or a chasing blow. That's the type of rope dart style I was hoping to find some info on.Anyone know where they sell marshal art compition videos?

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Here's a couple rope dart moves for everyone. To get it to impale something, you twirl it underhand and then entend your arm staight out and take a long step foreward toward the target. It is very accurate and strikes with tremendous force. It also hovers momentarily in the air at the moment of full extension. With my poi I like to do this move and come back from it with a bicep wrap. But it is so accurate and kind of floats there a second, I think it would be cool to light another twirlers poi this way--a little midair poi kiss.Another move is that Jackie Chan foot stall. Stand on left foot, hold right foor up. Swing dart/poi/horseshoe CW and slap it around foot. Aim for the bottom of your heel with the hard part. Shoot the object back up and around CCW with a kick. (This kick, called a "Northern kick" by some, is the hard part. Properly done, you can kick your waist sash over your right shoulder with it.) Just get it going with a kick and then swing it.This is one way you can change directions with a poi.Maximus

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catboy
member
Location: leicester, england
Member Since: 24th Sep 2001
Total posts: 167
Posted:i had a quick scout and found this french page which sells (i think) videos on it...http://www.kungfuasso.com/i dont speak french so i dont really have a clue what it was about, but i think there are videos on learning the basics?...

you can take the cat out of the jungle, but you cant take the jungle out of the cat

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:dai choy - meteor hammer

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SteelWngs
SteelWngs

member
Location: Malden, Massachusetts United S...
Member Since: 8th Aug 2001
Total posts: 169
Posted:OK Just to clear the air. I needed to show something. If anyone here has wondered why it is so had to find information of 9 sectional whip form or anything like that it's because of the skill level that is required to perform it. MOST students of martial arts don't even get to think about trying it till they are 3 degree black or above level.The big diferance between poi and Sheng Biao ( rope dart) is that poi were not meant to KILL people. Just for information here is what you have to learn before you get to rope dart forms.KatasWhite Belt to Yellow Belt Self Defense 1-24 Short Kata 1-10 Sparring Techniques 1-10 Yellow Belt to Blue Belt Short Kata 11-15 Ippon Kumite One Step Sparring 1-9 Sparring Techniques 1-10 Bo Techniques (4 spins) Se Mong Tau Lie Four Door Way Break Fei Foo Tzu Tung Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave Blue Belt to Green Belt Short Kata 16-22 Sparring Techniques 11-15 Hand to Hand Techniques Numchaku Techniques 1-12 Tai Pang Sin Kune Big Bird Spreads its Wings Se Pa Pang First Level Bo Kata Green Belt to Third Brown Belt Short Kata 23-30 Sparring Techniques 16-20 Lo Han Chien Fist of the Lo Han Pei Huang Chi Kai Pang Short Stick of the Northern Beggar Third Brown Belt to Second Brown Belt Bai Hur Chon Su White Crane Flips the Wings Bai Hur Chuan Sip White Crane Circles the Wings Bai Hur Chua Chou White Crane Flips the Legs San Njie (3 Units) Iron Man Je Chan Pa Fang Dao Night Battle Broadsword Second Brown Belt to First Brown Belt Tia Cha Sai Se Pa Kuen 4-8 Staff Lo Tien Descent from Heaven Chan Ie Spread the Feathers Yen Hur Performing Dove First Brown Belt to First Black Belt Ching Kang Foo Hoo Chien Golden Mountain Tiger Trap Lien U Chang Five Directional Palm Chie Chien Interconnecting Fist Hai Loong Chang Sea Dragon Cane Kwang Kung Tao General Kwang1/4s Knife First Black Belt to Second Black Belt Tai Chi Ch'uan Yang Tai Chi (64) Pa Kua Chang Classical Pa Kua He Foo Chon Sin Black Tiger Claws the Heart He Foo Chuan Sen Black Tiger Turns the Body He Foo Huan Sen Black Tiger Flips the Body He Foo Shou Sang Wounded Black Tiger Foong Wang Chue Han Chien Crazy Mad Drunk Tang Lang Tse Ju Praying Mantis Enters the Door Chway Kai Drunken Begger Chway Tao Drunken Broadsword Chiang Su Lian Si Spear Fighting Tech. Luo Chia Chiang Luo Family Spear May Hua Chiang May Flower Spear Yang Chia Chiang Yang Family Spear Se Mien Pa Huan Saung Tao Oo 4 Face 8 Dir. Broadsword Tien Ta Suang Hu Tou Kou Double Tiger Hook Swords Shake Heaven Yen Tse Tien Hsia Tao Swallow Sweeps Down from Heaven U Si Sen Hua 5 Animal Live Training U Si Se Hua 5 Animal Dead Training U Si Nei Hua 5 Animal ShienTien Chi Training I Chin Ching Change Muscle & Tendon Second Black Belt to Third Black Belt Oo Hsing Chien Fist of Five Roads Oo Hsing Lian Huan Chien Five Road Linkage Form Hsing I Se Ar Hsing Hsing I 12 Animal Forms Hsing I Chien San Sou Pau Hsing I Two Man Set Tai Chi Ar Se Se Tse Tai Chi Combined Form (24) Hoo Hur Suang Hsing Tiger Crane Duet Pai Hou Pai Fu White Monkey Prays to Budda Shaolin Pai Yen Tang Lang Chen White's Monkey Praying Mantis Tai Chi Chien Tai Chi Sword Tai Chi San San Liu Tai Chi Fan (36) Se Mien Pa Hung Chien Tabletop Sword Chi Sing Chien Seven Star Sword Chuan Yung Chien Skewer the Sun Sword Tan Tao Tue Chiang Broadsword vs. Spear Chway Chien Drunken Sword Shaolin Tao Su Way of the Shaolin Sword Third Black Belt to Fourth Black Belt Ie Lu Hua Chien 1st Road of Hua Fist Ar Lu Hua Chien 2nd Road of Hua Fist San Lu Hua Chien 3rd Road of Hua Fist Se Lu Hua Chien 4th Road of Hua Fist Hua Chien Tue Ta Ti Ie Pu Hua Fist 2 Man Set#1 Hua Chien Tue Ta Ti Ar Pu Hua Fist 2 Man Set#2 Hua Chien Modern Hua Fist Chang Chien Long Fist Tai Tse Chien Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy Tang Lang Chien Praying Mantis Fist Pang Lung Pang Entwine the Dragon Ar Chi Tao Su 2nd Level Broadsword Tie Pien Tsua Lung Wang Oo Dance of the Dragon King (7 link whip) Suang Tie Pa Chie Tao Butterfly Knives Yang Se Tai Chi Tao Tai Chi Broadsword Tai Chi Tao Tue Ta Tai Chi Broadsword 2 man set Iron Bone Training Weight Vest Conditioning ------------------Blessings to all, Peter "In motion, move like a thundering wave. When still, be like a mountain.Rising up, be like a monkey. Land swiftly and lightly like a bird. Be steadylike a rooster on one leg. One's stance is as firm as a pine tree, yetexpresses motion. Spin swiftly and circularly like a wheel. Bend and flexlike a bow. Waft gracefully like a leaf in the wind. Sink like a heavy pieceof metal. Prey like a watchful, gliding eagle. Accelerate like a gusty wind." Wushu Proverb

Blessings to all,
Peter
When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:Rope dart is a very difficult weapon. Of the fire tribe I run with two of us do chain whip, one does rope dart, and I am currently learning both, and apparently Neph is learning chain whip, also. One of the things that makes rope dart so freaking difficult is just it's sheer length. All the rope darts that I've seen (granted most have been in movies) are at least twice the person's body height in length. So they aren't what you would call easy to manipulate. It souds to me that what Knagi is looking for is chain whip, which, while similer to rope dart is actually quite different. Because it's not taught exept at the higher levels of training, short of actually studying Kung-fu, the only places you're likely to see it done is in movies, and kata compititions, like Knagi found. All styles of martial arts tend to gaurd their techniques from outsiders, so it is unlikely that you can find anything too indepth on the subject with out actually training.------------------If you love something, set it on fire.

Jesus helps me trick people.

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Whiffle Squeek
Whiffle Squeek

addict
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Member Since: 29th Oct 2001
Total posts: 416
Posted:thank you Josh, i understand better now

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:SteelWings - bearing in mind that a stick or maybe a rock was one of the first tools our ancestors used to hunt and kill food, then what about staff? Surely that can kill too, so the level of training (which also differs from form to form/dojo to dojo) doesn't matter except to improve efficiency
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Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut

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SteelWngs
SteelWngs

member
Location: Malden, Massachusetts United S...
Member Since: 8th Aug 2001
Total posts: 169
Posted:>>SteelWings - bearing in mind that a stick or maybe a rock was one of the first tools our ancestors used to hunt and kill food, then what about staff? Surely that can kill too, so the level of training (which also differs from form to form/dojo to dojo) doesn't matter except to improve efficiency Bendy, I both agree and disagree with you. Unlike flexible weapons staff does have a lot of basic forms. It is also dependant upon the length of the staff that you are using. Flexible weapons are usually only taught to people of a higher level of training and mental affinity. That is because of two things, first a flexible weapon can react oppositely than the movement that the wielder and secondly most flexible weapons are not knows as defensive weapons.As staff form is a lot easier to figure out how to attack and defend with a rigid weapon than with something that bends on it own. Flexible weapons take into account that a person already knows how his/her body moves and it's limitations. Yes I agree with you that you can easily kill with a staff, but wasn't a rock on a rope that was dropped on opponents and retrieved a yo-yo?------------------Blessings to all, Peter "In motion, move like a thundering wave. When still, be like a mountain.Rising up, be like a monkey. Land swiftly and lightly like a bird. Be steadylike a rooster on one leg. One's stance is as firm as a pine tree, yetexpresses motion. Spin swiftly and circularly like a wheel. Bend and flexlike a bow. Waft gracefully like a leaf in the wind. Sink like a heavy pieceof metal. Prey like a watchful, gliding eagle. Accelerate like a gusty wind." Wushu Proverb

Blessings to all,
Peter
When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.

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TheGrynygogg
member
Location: England, just north of London
Member Since: 21st Dec 2001
Total posts: 47
Posted:There arn't weapons that don't kill. Well, those that are are known as torture devices and they are very bad, and I'm sure that even those can kill although not strictly designed for it. 'Come here so I can Thumb-Screw you to death!'

Just ignore me. Everyone else does.

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:"There aren't weapons that don't kill"This is true, but there are weapons that kill much more efficently than others. Weapons like the staff are not very efficient for killing. You **can** kill with them, but you really have to work at it, unless you know exactly what you're doing. It is much more likely that you will just maim them. This is why police carry batons and night sticks, as they are considerd to be non-lethal. They can't shoot everyone, or people would start to complain.
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When you get down to it, everything is lethal to some degree. Every day items like forks, butter knives and spoons. Millions of people die every year from water related accidents, should we all argue over whether water should be a controlled substance. It is even possible to kill someone with a couple blades of grass.Everything is dangerous to some degree, and anyone who has caught a wick in the face or has accidently set them selves on fire, will tell you that staff and poi are, by no means, an exeption. They are after all, weapons too. Every weapon should be treated with the proper respect, and some weapons command more respect than others. If you've ever picked up a three section staff after useing a regular one you will know this immediatly. ------------------If you love something, set it on fire.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:But then, people can go about bashing themselves in the head with anything they want. It doesn't really affect my life that much.....------------------If you love something, set it on fire.

Jesus helps me trick people.

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TheGrynygogg
member
Location: England, just north of London
Member Since: 21st Dec 2001
Total posts: 47
Posted:Lol at that last post. I agree with you on the weapons thing but how do you kill someone with grass blades. Just curious, honest. I'm not a psycho but it is handy knowledge if I ever meet one.

Just ignore me. Everyone else does.

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jonathan
enthusiast
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 24th Nov 2001
Total posts: 210
Posted:i was practising in a park one day with my 4 poi going through somr basic patterns and stances when this dude came up to me and said he did rope dart, chain whip and nunchuka back home in japan, and that he was blown away with how difficult 4 poi would be. they really are one of the deadliest flail weapons if used and constructed properly. its just that using 4 is ridicuously hard in any sort of even gentle sparing situation, where does my foot go? where is my hand supposed to go to take advantage of that opening?. lots to think about, but at the end of the day its how youre feet move that will determine the efficacy of any moves attempted. thats pretty much a fundamental thing for weapons across many disciplines of martial arts (ive only done tae kwon do to any real level of understanding, but dabbled in a few others)well, thats how i see it anyway

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