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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so ive been sifting through the msgs about contact staffing and watching the poi in the park videos over and over and over trying to pick up as many contact staffing moves as i can. after spending many hours practising each one and watching the videos over and over i have learnt a few moves.

althought my movements are far from good i can flail around and get the general motion of a few of them. ive been showing ppl the little i know at twirling sessions and they have been picking the movements up much faster than i did as i can pass on the tips ive got for the moves.

i thought it would be cool to have some sort of site with small videos with just one contact move in each and a tips on how to do the move and or how to break it into chunks to learn. doing the whole making a website thing takes a bit of effort and all that so ive started a yahoogroup and uploaded a couple of small videos i took and added a few descriptions.

it would be great if ppl would like to add comments etc the videos are under the files section for some reason i cant make the files open to the public at the moment so it will require you to join (its set to instant so yeah)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Contact_Staffing/


is the site

i cant remember where i read this but im quite sure [Nx?] posted it, some sort of name would be good ive just listed it as btb shoulder to shoulder roll

quote: heres another move

roll staff backwards from right armpit onto right shoulder
let go of staff
turn body 180 degrees to the left
staff comes over left shoulder, catch into armpit. any and all input would be great.

ive uploaded a video that im kinda stuck with, i can get the shoulder wrap to neck roll to shoulder wrap now im trying to turn 180 at the end to get the staff to roll across my back but not having much luck, neway if anyone would care to have a look at the video and give me some advice i would be most grateful

[ 22. September 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: ben-ja-men ]


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Hummm, a little bit hit and miss as I cant see what video is what as my stoopid comp dont know japaneeze. Mind you, neither do I.

There used to be a semi-english version i think, but i dont got a link, anyone?

T

p.s. dont mean to piss anyone off but today I did a 900 degree vertical back/chest roll (like the halo roll, but continued across the chest) me happy.


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:900 degree vertical back/chest roll ? what turns through 900 degrees here, body or staff ??
Mike


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:900 get it on tape and surely theres col 5 entry done and done

that angel roll is insane ..... well so are most of the moves on there has been a beautiful day today much fun in the sun


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yeah, turning the body.

Im gonna havta really train staff to make the next col, got lots of new poi but stick has really plateaued, thats why im pleased to be getting more stuff at last.

T

p.s. I still cant find this 'angel roll' thing, does someone want to try and describe it to me? preferably using words like 'forward' 'vertical' ect? thanks!


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:erm. jesus.





been tryin the jesus with doubles.


mmmmmm.


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:naaaa, the horizontal double half elvis is the way to go i reckon ..

Angel roll ..hm .. right ,vertical backwards fishtails, raise your arms and let the staff kind of 'roll' vertically down your streched-out arm over your neck down the other streched-out arm into forwards fishtails ... i think i used 'forwards' & 'vertical' in there didn't i ??

could you kind of explain your 900deg move again ???

Mike

[ 18. October 2003, 09:15: Message edited by: Psi ]


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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:msg edited for not reading the friggin above post

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:well done, that was a great desciption

900, basically a contination of the 360

as mcp calls it a 'halo' roll (i tend to call it a vertical pivot, but hey) but taken across the front aswell, so the staff travels backwards off the right shoulder and you turn your body to the left so that that staff rolls forwards off your left shoulder then continue turning the staff goes across your chest in the same fasion to finish coming off backwards at the right shoulder, where you started.

A 900 is as abouve but goes back/front/back/front/back before catching forwards of the left shoulder. theoreticall infinate, but you gotta be spot on to get more than 1 rev.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I didn't know what to call it! It seemed like a smaller easier and in all other ways simpler move to do that the angel roll, hence the name - halo. And it does kinda make a big circle round your head. And who doesn't like that sort of thing??

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i would have gone with angel wings personally cos of the m shape it kind of makes but yeah i like the name halo roll i think we need a list and description of contact moves thread, im way to tired to start one now maybe tommorow

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:I tried to convince Clarles of this *ages* ago, but no dice at the time. are you gonna go for a catorgorised or descriptive venture?

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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good2go


member
Location: canada

Total posts: 4
Posted:hi can any one do back neck spins i can get 2 consistantly but any more then that i lose it
im trying to catch them in between my shoulder and neck and reverse the spin on the back of my neck but i keep hitting my head
i need some advise
some one told me to spot it out the corner of my right eye before i step
still cant seem to get it
oh i was prascticing lots today i did something cool do a whip section verticle over unederleft arm to start loop down and up over tilt head back pass behind neck but insted of letting go hold staff with both hands thread head through arm and staff so staff is out lenght of left arm then push it back loop under butt turn to front elbow pass

that might be confusing but tell me if you get it
send me tricks if youve got them


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:spray that again?

as for neck spins, the secret is to get them dead on the 7th neck vertibre, the one that sticks out at the base of your neck. Hit this sweet and it should just keep going. The other way is the batton style where it goes across the neck then transfered from shoulderbalde to shoulder balde and then back across the neck, you can keep this going forever too, but its not perfectly horisontal.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:Nx? i tried your back/chest roll thingy yesterday - its a really nice move ! I found it again a bit easier doing it at a slight angle,around 30 deg from vertical or so, but one has to turn really fast when its on the chest.

Contact move categories, hm i thought about this a while a ago, but then never persued writing it to the end & posting it.
---------------------------------------------------------
I think of contact moves as being made up of basic contact-components: Each is a single roll over
a single "saddle point", being the body part its rolling over. The middle of the staff (the 'o' below) must touch the centre of the saddle point for the roll to be symetric & even in terms of speed. If not the staff will tend to accelerate on either side of the saddle.

code:
staff

I / \ I
I / \ I
o _ ==> o _ ==> ----o---- ==> _ o ==> _ o
I / \ / / \ / \ / \ \ / \ I
I| ^ | / | | | | | | \ | |I
|
saddle point Basic Components: ( [f/r]=forward/reverse [f/b]=front/back )
Vertical:
Handroll [f/r]
Elbowroll [f/r]
Shoulderroll [f/r]
Neckroll
Frontneckroll ...............(lean your head back till you look up into the sky, then you can do a
roll kind of behind the back over the front of your neck)
Chestroll ...............(courtesy of Nx? )
Backroll
Waistroll [f/b]
Footrolls ? (dunno, but must be some)

Horizontal/Angled:
Handroll [f/r]
Neckroll
Shoulder/Armpit roll [f/r]
Backroll
Elbowroll [f/r]
outer side Armroll (up/down) .........(credit goes to mushy pea steve)
inner side Armroll (up/down) ......... the kind of arm roll the occurs in the full steve while going round the front



Then one can start building more complex combinations, by presenting several 'saddle points' in turn, which will keep the staff rolling. The next saddle point can be a different body part (most moves) or can be the same (e.g. fishtails). So here's a few:

Vertical:
Elbow/Arm/other Arm/other Elbow ............ (the familiar double elbow roll)
variations:
Elbow/Elbow or
Elbow/twohands/Elbow

Shoulder/Neck/Shoulder ........... prob. my favorite , courtesy of Glass , see Drew&staff video)
Continous Back/Neck rolls ......... easiest at an angle)
Continous Hand/Elbow/Back/Elbow/Hand ............. (very nice continous move, Ogre taught me this one )
Fishtails................. (Continous forward/backward Handrolls on the same hand) [f/r]
Hand/Elbow (turn) same elbow reverse/same Hand reverse ........... = Half fishtail on Elbow:
reverse Arm roll/neck roll/ arm roll ............ the half (?) steve

(...)

Additional Tricks/Combos:
Pinches
Lynx ...............(credit goes to glass)
(...)


Hm, looks a bit messy, might have to sit down and clean it up a bit.
Come on people, this list is nowhere near complete, lets have some more ideas

Mike

[ 20. October 2003, 00:10: Message edited by: Psi ]


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:mmmmm this is gonna get big fast, Continous Hand/Elbow/Back/Elbow/Hand , i take it its same hand to elbow where abouts on your back does it roll? how close to ur elbow does the stick have to come?

i tryed the front neck wrap thing that is cool thanx for the idea.

do u want to modify ur original post to stop this becoming massive and ill delete this post after uve done it? or should we start a new thread or what?

i was thinking with the naming stuff

roll - rotates around the staff axis
wrap - travels around the body part
spin - moves like a propeller blade

Individual movements

Vertical
angel roll (that insane baton move)
backhand wrap
back rolling spin (the staff rolls from one shoulder to the other it traces out a m shape kinda)
chest rolling spin (nx?)
elbow wrap (arm straigh or in a v shape)
fishtails hand
fishtails elbow -cutbacks?
front neck wrap (wicked move psi: lean your head back till you look up into the sky, then you can do a roll kind of behind the back over the front of your neck
leg wrap (being of the thigh variety)
lynx (credit goes to glass)
neck wrap (head tilted down)
roll kind of behind the back over the front of your neck)
shoulder wrap

Horizontal
armpit to fingers roll while doing a backbend
backhand spin
back spin (while leaning forward the staff spins on the back)
front shoulder to shoulder wrap (works nicely when coming from a backhand spin)
backhand wrap
Elbow wrap (dont know how but psi said it is so it is ...... care to let me know how )
headspin
inner side Armroll (up/down) ......... the kind of arm roll the occurs in the full steve while going round the front
globetrotter
neck spin (head leaning forward spins on back of neck
neck wrap (head looking forward)
continuousneck wrap (glass does it on his Drew&staff video)
outer side Armroll (up/down) .........(credit goes to mushy pea steve)
palm spin
shoulder spin (that whole head ducking thing)
waist wrap

ill leave the linked movements alone .... for now


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:If you want to make a list of moves, it would be useful for HOP to go find out what all the baton twirling names are and post them here.
could save a lot of confution later.
what charles started calling wraps they call rolls. too.
well I guess thats becasuse it is a roll.
eg angel rolls and Elbow rolls
So i guess you can figure why I dont talk about wraps.
la la la
glass


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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:Ben,

ok, ill give our two posts a good combining edit and post it as a new thread.
I think syncronizing the movenames with those that baton spinners use is a very good idea - i think ill keep the names above for now and then keep editing the list, when we find out if batonists call them something different. I also think that rolls should be called rolls not wraps - partly because its so established by now, partly because i find it a more intuitive name and partly because, as glass points out, batonists call them rolls. Also waist-wraps are not contact moves and quite different from waist-rolls (the contact move) and that would be a bit of a point of confusion !?

Mike


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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:oh, aaehh:
quote:
Continous Hand/Elbow/Back/Elbow/Hand , i take it its same hand to elbow where abouts on your back does it roll? how close to ur elbow does the stick have to come?
start with a hand-to-elbow roll say using your righthand, spinning clockwise, when it rolls over your elbow turn left by 180deg and let the staff go into a halo-roll (back roll). as it comes down from that turn another 180 leftwards, let it come down over your shoulder (kind of stick your elbow into the staff's way) and finish back in a hand roll. repeat until drop.

(The elbow/hand/hand/elbow version of this is on drew&staff at 0:53)

Mike

[ 20. October 2003, 07:05: Message edited by: Psi ]


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i had a bit of a search and it seems there are a few different nameing convensions out there. i had quite a bit of trouble actually finding sites that listed baton moves and more so finding ones that listed them comprehensively of the ones i did find

http://www.starbaton.com/badge_program.htm#_Toc3623999

had wrap,roll,twirl(i think was in place of spin)

http://sugarbabies.itwirl.com/fun_twirling_tricks_____________.htm

used roll and spin

on a totally unrelated note it had this insane move on there

Double Leg Roll
(This one is included especially for Ed!)
Hold baton in right hand, lift left leg as if you are marching, thigh parallel to the ground, knee bent so toe points to ground. Place back of right hand firmly under left leg, mid-thigh, and roll baton over leg, making sure baton is making contact with leg the entire time. As baton goes over top of left leg and nears the vertical position, quickly switch legs (march) so right leg is raised in march position. Baton should continue rolling smoothly over right leg. Reach left hand under right thigh to catch baton as it finishes rolling over the right leg.

http://www.twirlmania.com/TIPSrolls.htm

was also rolls

http://www.ustwirling.com/documents/2003%20Pre-Trials%20Handbook%20-%20FINAL.pdf

was the only sort of offical type doc i could find. it used roll for everything put there are no palm spins or palm rolls or shoulder rolls in there either

if we call everything a roll how do u differentiate between a neck roll (where it goes from one side of the body to teh other) and a neck roll (where the staff spins like a propeller on the neck). if there is an easy way to differentiate the two would u then call a palm spin a palm roll, its got the same movement as a neck spin but to call one a spin and one a roll doesnt really make sense. its a bit of a slippery slope.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Psi


boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...

Total posts: 529
Posted:Nice list of baton sites, will have to have a look round those, there may be hidden some interesting moves so they don't have a consistent naming scheme either .. hm
i guess they dont really have staff-axis rolls, since batons are so thin that they probably dont roll very well (this may be totaly wrong so please someone correct me on this ) but given that, they dont have a problem since every roll has to be a wrap-type roll.

i known the whole naming will never be totally consistent - it will never replace someone showing you the move ("its the one where you go..") - but maybe it will at least help communication and help inventing new tricks/combinations

i see the main problem with the term "arm roll"
since it can either be what you would call an arm wrap or a roll down the arm. but since noone really does arm wraps (they look a bit odd i think) i reckon the term arm roll ought to describe the steve-like arm roll. Or maybe call it the up-the-arm roll/down-the-arm roll...oh dear but then what about the angel roll i dont know lalalala meep

will have to think about it ...

Mike

[ 20. October 2003, 11:32: Message edited by: Psi ]


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:I'm going to go practise the pivot.

or possibly the turning reverse shoulder wrap to forward shoulder wrap.


wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap/roll/wrap

Oooo, is wrap a four letter word now?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:so i guess wraps r once again getting the thumbs down, poor wraps o well subway will always love em

on another note Nx? pointed out to me that the whole definitions thing can case variations to be ignored. suggesting that techniques be given like vertical roll on shoulder, turn away from the staff, staff stays on same shoulder, turn towards the staff, the staff transfers to other shoulder

seems like a logical way to go, would be cool to have some stuff as to what causes the variations, as Nx? pointed out there are variations of the same move that come from different techniques, i find sometimes when i go from a shoulder roll to neck roll to shoulder roll instead of the roll coming over my shoulder to under my arm the stick rolls up along my arm, i guess it has something to do with the way i bring my shoulder in it (feel free to enlighten me as to what it is im doing that causes this).

it would be cool to add some tips for common problems for example i was having heaps of trouble doing a shoulder roll to neck roll to shoulder roll, and spent weeks and weeks watching videos of other ppl doing it and practising. if i had read the explanation psi gave above about saddlepoint it would have been a much quicker fixing process as it turned out when the staff was coming over the back of my neck it was to off center cos of where i was holding it to start the shoulder roll so it kept sliding off. in hindsight its such a stupidly simple mistake but then again hindsight usually is 20/20


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,

i think i got that wrong talking to ben erlier,

if you turn toward the staff (toward the direction of spinning, i.e staff rolling backward over the right shoulder turn left, or forwards over the left shoulder turn left, if you get it ) then it transitions across the body, if you turn away from the staff then it stays on the same shoulder.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:I wish I could understand what you guys are saying ..........

Bammy


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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Wintermute


Wintermute

Lost in the world but loving it :)
Location: Maybe Oxford, maybe Brighton ;...

Total posts: 119
Posted:It all sounds quite dark and skillful, yet totally incomprehensible, ahhhhhhhh well one day

If fishes were wishes we'd all cast nets

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:No wonder I don't visit technical sections very often, they make me feel very stupid.



Selfishly glad I'm not alone in my fog of confusion.


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:add another one to the "totally lost and confused" list!
vive les wraps et everything else!


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:quote:ah well, thats what happens when you try to describe the paths of spinning cylinders in three-dimensional space using a language which evolved mainly for the purpose of facilitating mating.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:ok, i hear you, ill try to clarify.

if the staff is comming forwards over your right shoulder and you turn to the right you are turning against the spin of the staff and the only place the staff has to go is across your chest and onto the left shoulder.

If however you turn to your left it acts like a fishtail and the staff stays on the same shoulder.

the intresting bit, and this is where im gonna confuse peaple again is that once you have turned to the left the staff is now comming backwards over your right shoulder, if you contine turning to the left you are now turning against the spin of the staff. and it goes across your back and onto the left shoulder, a 'halo roll'. Now im not shure why but from here you are still turning against the staff and it continues across the chest.

help anyone? maybe not

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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