Page: 12
Heckler
member
Location: Perth, Australia
Member Since: 24th Jun 2003
Total posts: 7
Posted:Alrite, i say this come up OT on another thread and i've been trying and trying but i can't seem to get it going. Can it be done with a staff? has anyone tried or can anyone do it? Starting with a roll over the wrist, the staff keeps going when i try to do the fishtail. or am i starting wrong?

anyone have any idea? can anyone help me? AIIIEEEEE!!!

Heck


When you register, why can you choose your birth year right up to the almighty 2013?

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Ali-bird
Ali-bird

member
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Jul 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:Erm, I did baton twirling for ten years and then stopped for a chunk of time before I picked up a staff. While there's a lot of crossover and a lot of skills to be exchanged I find the two to be very different disciplines, actually.

I've had to UNlearn loads of conventions from baton when learning new staff moves, especially regarding contact, pattern and flow (i.e. breaks ARE allowed in the movement) especially for double staff... Staff is so much more free, it's really refreshing to not have so many rules to stick to!

Having a discplined grounding in baton (pattern, thumb toss, high throws, speed, technique/balance etc) has been great - given me a head start and a different staff style to BamBam and the others, but we exchange loads of valuable info and I certainly don't think it makes baton twirlers superior in any way.

Unless of course you were joking, in which case sorry for not getting it!

Bam thank you for the gorgeous compliment! I ain't that good... gonna be cool to hook up some contact moves from fishies and stuff though!

Oh, and whoever said it was basically a figure 8 in front with the hand - spot on, that's exactly how I try to describe it. Glad people are getting it, I think it's a gorgeous move.

Ali-bird xxx


Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Tanessa, baton is beautiful, staff is beautiful. And i would never presume that baton is any less magickal becuase of my love of staffage. that would just be disrespectful.

plus, +) is a funny dude and perched a winky at the end of his tanessa statement. You are amongst friends here, (however smelly!!) and i admire all spinners of all implements, from the highly skilled to the yet-to-fishtail!!!

ps mucho respect for your fishtail instructions!! alas, my sticks won't allow me to perform it proper baton-style ie in front, but your side-to-side emphasis truly did put my attention to something i needed to know in order to be like +)!
i highly recommend that you see the adaptation of luverly baton-style moves in the 'Circles of Light 4' compilation - it's 3 hours of skill and beauty!! da trailer is here.

many happy trails!!


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Tanessa:
Being a former baton twirler has given me a definate advantage over all staff spinners.Well, I don't think that's strictly true...

I bet I can hit myself around the head with a stick in ways you can't even imagine


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Tanessa
member
Location: Canada
Member Since: 4th Jun 2002
Total posts: 91
Posted:It seems I have hit myself in the head too many times with my own baton, that I can't translate thought to words anymore!!!, he, he

Guys and Gals, I did not mean to offend, again, but it seems I did. "Baton twirling has given me a definite advantage to learning staff" is how I should have put the statement, because I don't want you other staffers to think that I think I am the "All Mighty" in this sport because I am not. I was simply trying to help out describing fishtales, and put forth the challenge of learning more spinning in different forms. I believe that the more educated we all become, the better we will become at everything. Being a former baton twirler has given me an advantage to learning staff really quickly and easily. As the former baton twirler stated above that it helped give a different twist to her spinning compared to some others. Luckily, I didn't have to unlearn any baton skills, but I did also have to make the transition of the moves from baton to staff.

My first and only staff lesson I took was when I was in Australia. I was at a hostel when a fire performing group came to entertain us. There was a girl staffing (and performed really well) and I thought, "hey, that looks like a bigger baton". After, the girl let me touch her staff I was surprised it was just as light as a baton. I then proceeded to do a few baton moves for her that could be incorporated into her performance. Her eyes looked like they were going to jump from her face, he, he. She was definately interested in learning some new moves (this in particular was elbow rolls). The next day I went for a free lesson on staffing. The guy who taught me was pretty good, did all different types of spinning, staff, poi, etc. He basically taught me a few transiton moves and explained to me the way the staff should work (I guess this was for beginners like me). But he kept saying "What the **** am I supposed to show a champion baton twirler?!?" But without this one lesson of him explaining the dynamics of the sport, I wouldn't have been able to make my smooth transition into staffing. I feel that if I had no baton experience, I would not have the skills, nor be at the level of spinning that I am.

So, my past experience with baton has definately given me an advantage to learning this sport. It does not make me better than anyone else out there. I have taught many people (mostly guys in martial arts who train with weapons), but my one student Mark, who has had no former training at all, who only did poi before, has learned staff from me. This kid now is sooo good now that sometimes when I watch him I think "Damn, he almost looks better than me spinning! And I have all this experience that he doesn't!". I know there are great spinners out there as my student constantly challenges me (thx Mark). You don't have to be a former batoner to be good at this. I am part of the spinning community as well and people love to watch me spin as I love to watch others spin.

My apologies to all whom I may have offended with my remarks, but I really did not mean any harm. I just want everyone to know that there is still so much that can be learned and incorporated into this sport from many different aspects. I wish all the best in their spinning adventures, and still challenge all to learn more, as I am also doing.

It really does feel great when you are so in control of your staff that this sport feels like a breeze.....

quote: ...but to carve and shape the very atmosphere through which we look and see everyday, that is the finest of the arts.


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:just been in the park and finally got doubles fishtails, about 25 in either hand with a couple of turns.... but my shoulders are sore....




Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Psi
boing
Location: Body in Seattle - soul still i...
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 529
Posted:Bluecat, whoow !! with short or long staff ?

Mike


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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:bluecat only uses doubles which are about 5ft long.
and he was cracking some sh*t (edit: when did hop let me start swearing again?) hot rocking doubles contact at EJC


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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Just met an Aussie guy named Steve who has some amazing doubles contact. only person Ive seen with similar skills is Rob

Seeya in NZ, Rob.

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Dec 2002
Total posts: 522
Posted:mr bluecat was indeed "on fire" at the ejc, i only saw him one afternoon before playing some funky games but my jaw did drop when he went "oh, this is quite a cool move" and did some weird move that I cant even begin to imagine how it works...
all hail bluecat, master of the weird twirly sticky moves!!!


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:


lovely uninspired spin yesterday to put me in my place.


just working on wall plane fishtails....mmmmmm


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Morkai
member
Location: The ib....
Member Since: 20th Aug 2003
Total posts: 9
Posted:I may have got the 'Wrong end of the stick' but i think fishtails are easier with longer staff..in contrast to what tanessa said.
Im about 5"10 and me staff comes up to my shoulders and i can do about 250 fishtails in either hand in either direction...
I think the weight makes it easier cus' me' staff is a heavy git!


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Morkai:
I may have got the 'Wrong end of the stick'


think it just depends on what you're used to.

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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duvan
duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany
Member Since: 13th Nov 2002
Total posts: 249
Posted:my experience : don't try fishtails if some persons are standing next to you

"a fishy business"
Non-Https Image Link


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Me and a few of me twirling mates are getting into fishtails by spinning the staff on the back of the wrist. Now, that hasnt worked for me so far, as speed kills, and Im going back to just balancing the staff on the back of my wrist and doing basic contact stuff

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Twirly
Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Member Since: 25th May 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted::bump:

I still have absolutely no idea whats going on here, and I don't have realplayer so I cant see those vids :S

Am I just trying to keep it spinning round continuously by shoving it round with my hand? Cos I can't do that lol. Is it meant to look like what alienfox's little alien dude is doing? Or is that irrelevant?

What kind of pattern will the actual staff be making if I do it right?

Sorry, I find it hard to visualise staffy-goodnesses.


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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Here are two very clear posts from PK and Bluecat that really helped me alot.

I havent read any of this thread so i hope im not repeating anything....

I just learned how to do this about three days ago as you'll see here

I've only just started to learn contact, its much fun and hurts.

Written by:

Fishtails: Forward

Path of the staff

The path that the staff travels is like when you kayak, each end of the staff stays on its side. As a starting point it is helpful to hold the staff like a paddle as if you where kayaking with both hands on the staff. I find fishtails are easier to do on the side of your body as the hand movements to stop the staff from hitting yourself are smaller. After having paddled infront of yourself try paddling on the side of your body.

Hand movement

Now that you have an idea as to where the staff has to move you can practise the hand movement. with your palm facing down move your hand in a halfpipe shape. When your palm is facing directly down to the ground this should coincide with when the staff is parallel (well close to) with the ground. When your hand is coming from the right hand side to the left hand side the staff end on the right side of your body with be furthest away from you as visa versa.

If the staff is parallel to the ground and your hand is not the staff will go sliding off, be aware it will do so quite quickly and if you have a grippy grip its like carpet burn without the carpet.

You want the middle of the staff to be as close possible to the middle of the back of your hand/wrist to make the movement as balenced as possible.

Speed

Try to do the move as slowly as you can as it is very easy to hit yourself with this movement. There is a rhythem to the movement, just remember that if you do it fast you will have to move your hand very fast to keep up. If you do it to slow the staff will stall.

Starting the fishtail

The way shown in the video is roll the staff over the back of the hand, so that the staff rolls from your little finger end of the hand to the thumb.

I find that doing a figure 8 to the side of the body holding the staff with both hands flows into the fishtail nicely. Make sure that you position your hands so that when you do the back hand roll the middle of the staff will be close to in the middle of your wrist.

Steps to learning the move

1. Practise the kayaking motion

2. Practise just the hand motion

3. Do the hand motion and hold the staff on your hand using your other hand

4. Practise doing the palm roll and taking the staff to the opposite side of your body on the back of your hand

5. Practise the palm roll over to the other side and back again in the fishtail

6. Do 5. and repeat without the palm roll

two handed fishtails.

a beautiful slow move that has helped me enormously in smoothing out my fishtails.

put the staff on the backs of both hands to your right side.the hands should be approx 40cm apart on a 150cm staff... the hands will not move from this position with regards to the staff, so i will refer to the staff ends as the left hand end and right hand end...

so the left hand end is pointing in front of you.
lift the right hand end and drop the left hand end making 1/2 a revolution and moving both hands to the other side. this should end with the staff is the start position but on the other side of your body.... repeat but the other way.

the second hand stabilises and makes fishtails easy... the movement of both hands is veryvery similar to the movemnet on one hand fishtails, hence why i use it as a practise.

for backwards you use the same start position...only you lift the left hand end and drop the right hand end. make the half revolution. and tadaaa! you should be there or thereabouts.



Best o luck

a


Love is the law.

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Twirly
Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Member Since: 25th May 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:AAaaaaah thank you very muchly. As you can see, I was waaay off track.



I can tell this will screw with my head, but cheers!



/goes and plays.



EDIT:



/comes back inside.



Nah I'm too sh1t for that, I'll find something else to try.


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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Dont give up, practise balancing it on the back of your and move around with it. Do LOTS of hand rolls and stuff and try loads of variations. I still cant do it very well but it'l come evantually.

Love is the law.

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Twirly
Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Member Since: 25th May 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Aww your encouragement is much appriciated. I'm bound to try it again some day, but I'm feeling a bit down at the moment so anything that frustrating is just going to make me angry with myself.

I read how you (I think) do palmspins while leaning forward, I'm gunna go try that instead, see if its easier (cos my palm doesnt 'do' flat.)


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musashii
musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 1148
Posted:anyone played with horizontal fishy tails yet? lots of fun, I'm sure it would look great w doubles.

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ooooo trixy

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:yep, clockwise and anticlockwise horizontal ones... discovered by accident when playing with a cricket stump. they're one of those moves that really pis* off devil stickers when you borrow them and do contact instead...

--ben


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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:is that like a devilsticking curl but without the handsticks?

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:dunno what devil stickers call them... i just like asking for a go, being crap with the stick things and then handing them back and using my hands instead... devils are so nicely weighted it's untrue...

--ben


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Jarviz
Jarviz

Member

Member Since: 27th Aug 2004
Total posts: 7
Posted:My first post, wheee!

I've been trying to understand what a fishtail is and just couldn't understand how I was supposed to pull such a move of until I watched the video, which were an amazing help. But, here is my problem, I can do it, sort of, but I'm using a 142 cm Concentrate staff and just seems to get away from me when it gets up to speed. Someone mentioned that the move is easier with a shorter staff, does that mean that it's really, really hard with a long staff?

I'll keep trying to do it though smile


Jarviz

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musashii
musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 1148
Posted:Welcome to HOP wave

part of the reason might be the weight of the concentrate staff as well, fishtails were easier for me to learn when I had a heavier staff. The length didn't make that much of a difference as the weight for me.


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Jarviz
Jarviz

Member

Member Since: 27th Aug 2004
Total posts: 7
Posted:Thank you!

I think you might be on to something, my staff is pretty light but the distribution of the weight could be the problem. The ends are very heavy in comparison to the center which probably is why the staff has a tendency to "slide" away when I try to do fishtails. Whenever I get to the point where one end of the staff is pointing down it starts sliding away and I can't right it using just to top of my hand. This could just be because I need more practice though tongue


Jarviz

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:you want to work on making your fishtails slow and controlled, id say its most likely sliding because you are moving the staff from one side of your body to the other when its not parallel with the ground. also do the fishtails to the side of you rather than infront when your using a long staff you dont have to move the staff so far

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Page: 12

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