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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:quote: in both directions, forward and back, you can add an extra half turn on both sides of the body, for example with forwards figure eight done at the side of the body you can lay it over the wrist going from fron to back or rotate the shoulder from back to front, doing both gives you 2 revolutions on each side. backwards is simalar but the shoulder moves on front to back and the forarm on back to front.

hope this makes sence, i think this is what charles calls a double figure 8.
no doesn't quite make sense. i'm not so good with words sometimes. u do 720 degrees both in front and in back of you fwd an rev?

is that even what ur saying?


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Kyrian, I've been told by a few people that I'm fairly good at words.

Here's a long, lengthy description of how to do a figure8. It doesn't make any sense unless you have a staff in your hand and go through the instructions with that. I hope it helps

quote: EEEEK! The double figure-8 is one of the hardest "common" moves that I know to try and describe in words. I'll have a go, but need to difine the figure8 to make sure we both have the same starting move as well.

Please forgive me for the wordiness of this post, it may be almost impossible to understand it just by reading, however if you have a staff in your hand and go through each step it SHOULD make sense. If I've done it right that it...

Here goes nothing...

Figure 8

S
tart with a basic figure-8, where one leading edge of the staff dips in front of you, comes up and to your side and then dips behind you. It turns 180 degrees in front and another 180 degrees behind. For this explanation we'll say it is your right hand-side.

Your hand/wrist (if trailing smoke) should make a figure-8 symbol in the air with one loop in front, the x where it crosses on your side and the other loop behind you. Also the staff is held in a closed grip with the thumb end of the hand pointing up the leading end and the pinky finger end stuck with the following end of the staff.

Is that the way you do your current figure 8? If so...

Double Figure 8

When the leading end starts coming up in front of you, it will be approaching the furthest point to your left of its arc. And also exactly halfway between the top and bottom of the arc. At this point you usually pull it back and up across your chest to dip it down to your right again.

Instead of doing that, when it is at that far left and middle-height point, stop your forearm and arm from moving at all. The staff should be vertical with your forearm parallel with the ground. The staff still has some kinetic energy, so it will want to spin in one place. You now allow this spin to change your grip on the staff by pointing your fingers to the left and letting the staff's oringinal leading end point across your forearm to the right. Your wrist should now be pointing upwards, with your thumb on top of the staff and your four fingers underneath it. The leading edge of the staff needs to be outside your arm slightly so it is pointing slight away from your body on the right and slightly towards your body on the left. At this point it has done a 1/4 spin with your hand as the fulcrum, the arm has still not moved.

The staff still wants to spin on the existing axis so keeping the wrist still as well, you "roll" the staff between your thumb and the fingers underneath. I.E Push your thumb down and away from your chest and bring your four fingers up and towards your chest.

This has rotated the staff 180 degrees again, with the arm still stationary, and the original leading end now pointing to your left.

As usual the staff still wants to keep moving, but as far as I know, there is no closed grip movements to let it spin with your hand as the fulcrum. So we now move the arm to the right to keep using this energy, first rotate your forearm at the elbow so that the NEW LEADING END is pointing down at the ground and the forearm is pointing upwards (90 degrees). Try to bring your elbow in to your body a few inches as well. (the original is now pointing to your left).

As the forearm goes past the 90 degrees position swivel your shoulder a little to allow the whole arm to straighten out and bring the path of the staff behind you a little (all previous motions have happened in front of your body). This the point of crossover as in the normal figure-8, where the X between the two loops normally occurs.

And now the whole process is reversed behind you. I can explain that too if you wish, but don't want to make this post any longer than it already is.

Especially if I haven't described it properly anyway. i look forward to your reply (and others on my explanation).


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:is this what ur saying:

instead of doing a 180 rotation on each side (figure eight) ur in fact doing 360 rotations on each side?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:<--scratches head

was right with ya till we got to 'roll' on the fingers, thumb going down fingers going up. what on earth are you decribing?

you end up with 360 on each side rite?

humm, losing all enthusasiam for this topic...

N


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:sorry nix?, don't mean to be so dense *blush*

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:its not you K, its wading through that description of charles's (charlies is easier to type) that has put me off.

look, just try and fit and extra half turn in where ever it goes, there are 4 diffrent ways, and I only discovered the last after about 8 months of twirling. two ways have the staff lying across the forearm and then moving the forearm, the otherways are just your shoulder rotating a little instead of your wrist.

Nix


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:ok, been thinking about this some more (I knew I couldent get actually tired of a staff topic!

to learn the shoulder type extra roll.

do forwards figure 8 infron of the body (left to right side infront) in right hand.

as the staff goes round on the right side instead of going to the left side with the front (leading) end, tuck the front end under the right armpit.

without stopping then take the bottom (trailing) end down and across to the left side and let the top end follow.

untwist the wrist and leading side goes back to the right, repeat untill safe.

this is the first (forward) technique, backwards is diffrent and feels more spazzy, and is done on the opposite side of the body from the hand hlding it, this is what took me 8 months to discover. so ill leave it to you

for the 'across the forarm' tecnique:

with the right hand the staff is spinning clockwise (as you look at it) parralel with the body (flat infron of you, not pointing away from you)

at the point you would normally take the staff behind you twist your wrist with the staff and let the bottom end lie across your forearm. (I think this is the position charles means by 'fingers up, thumb down')

the hand cannot move anymore but youe elbow can, think of the forarm now as part of the staff and you are spinning it from the elbow. it is usefull at this point to tuck the elbow close to the body.

forearm and the top end of the staff should be pointing across your abdomen to the left, bottom end of the staff pointing to the right, from the elbow the hand moves up and over to the right (the direction of spin of the staff)

the back end is now behind you and you follow it with the top, untwist, top goes back to front as normal, reapeat untill safe.

the backwards version of this is very simalar but happens behind you.

the first move can also be done parralel to the body (it happens behind you) but is easier to learn in front of the body. (or at least, easier to describe) you combine thease two moves to make the double figure eight.

is this more clear? I hope so because my powers of description are just about spent

night all

N

[ 12 August 2002, 11:01: Message edited by: Nix? ]


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:oh and K,

how come you got even more posts than charles? I thought I was a blabber mouth!

N


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-><- Kallisti

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:in the interests of happier times with the staff population, I'll ask if I can use your description, charles, with some of my family-suitable twirling footage to add to the (double?) staff lessons section of the grandeur that is the Home of Poi. It'll be a place you could point to next time the topic pops up, instead of having take the time to post your decent description again... waddya fink?

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:well, i'm not charles but i vote for yes bender!

Nix, i think i've grasped at least teh shoulder part of what ur saying, but i'm going to have a second go at it tommorow whne i am thinking more clearly.

and the reason i have so many posts is cause i am way too social. not quite as bad as cantus tho


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:So, am I getting this right?

Basicly a normal figure 8, but instead of crossing the body when you normally would you let the staff of an extra half rotation so you end up cradleing it (like how you would hold a baby or an American football). Then you follow through continuing what would be the normal figure 8 rotation in that cradle psoition, keeping the elbow stationary and using the hand to propel it into the normal figure 8 path?

And this is called a "shotgun"? Is that correct?


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:if it's a "shotgun" you can get teh extra half turn in without having to cradle it. if it's a "reverse shotgun" what you said sounds about right. there's also a version which involves going over your head, but it's the same thing.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:You couldn't possibly be talking about a half weave figure 8, could you?

Jesus helps me trick people.

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Kyrian, are you confusing folks again?

As far as i can work out you're all describing what I know as the cradle (similar to the club swinging move The Snake) am I wrong?


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I have no idea. if i could get video onto the web i would show you but i can't.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Shotgun = double figure 8.

Reverse shotgun = reverse double figure 8?

this is true if we can agree you have to bring it over a body part (or under) (arm or shoulder) in order to get it around to the front.

that settle things?

Kyri has learned something


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:btw i still odn't get teh shoulder thing Nix?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:errm, I cant really explain it any better, guess youll just have to come visit

N


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-><- Kallisti

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Ok,lets see if I've got this now.

Shotgun =
(speaking in terms of front and back rotors) regular fig 8 motion but as the staff comes behind, instead of crossing back over into normal fig 8, you let the staff go an extra 180 so that the thumb side of the staff tucks underneith your armpit and the pinkie side crosses back over to your front side, then repeats.

Is this correct?


Jesus helps me trick people.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Perfect! now do the same thing on both sidea and both directions!

N


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-><- Kallisti

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SickpuPpy


SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.

Total posts: 1100
Posted:Good God man, well why didn't you just say?

This was really bothering me as I knew it had to be a simple move I just wanted to know what every one was talking about.

Actually when I started learning staff techniques in martial arts this "shotgun" was the second thing they taught us. So it seems I've been doing this move for some ten years and never once knew I was, in fact, weilding a shotgun.

As far as fire staff goes I had always thought of this as half of the weave, and if you use single staff and alternate this 'shotgun' between your right and left sides this is in poi terms a 5 beat weave.

Glad we finally got that all cleared up.

[ 30 August 2002, 14:56: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:so am i. i'm so horrible with descriptions.

i want to know how you all get it under your arms tho. clockwise i just go to the outside, and cc i have to bring it over my arm.

any advice for moi?????


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:you kinda reverse it as it goes behind you. I think thats what your askin...

N


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:wish damn plane tix to england didn't cost so much..... either that or that i was smarter.......
lol.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:lol, time to take one of benders astral traveling courses!

N


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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:Cantus and I call it the cradle cos it looks like you're cradling the staff.

forwards and reverse in both hands are possible Kyrian - you just have to work it out

so cradle = shotgun


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:I call it the shaolin fung-foo move thingy, i think it is a martial arts thing, someone said something simalar...

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:i can do it fwds and rev but just not under my arm?? well, under my arm fwds but it seems like a waste of energy. hmmmmm. astral travelling..... can i bring a staff with me on the astral plane i wonder????

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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MTM Monster


MTM Monster

Moat monster
Location: someplace murky

Total posts: 208
Posted:Depends what your astral carry on luggage limit is.

A good deal of growr, some grr and quite a bit of snarl, spit and some biting. just a regular day at the office.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:I always take my staff on astral travels, its my source of power and link home. Besides, I gottit in my hand all the time when awake so why not asleep/altered-state?

N


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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:That's good to know.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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