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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Here we go again in an exhaustive attempt to get some more common terms for staff moves to enable webbased sharinf of tricks.There are three section, Staff Movements (what the staff does regardless of how it is achieved), Manipulation Movements (what your body and fingers etc do to make the staff behave a certain way) and Body Movements (just what the body is doing, without reference to the staff)These are split so that people who are doing certain move in a different way with the same result get to share their ways instead of thinking they are the same...----------Staff Movements---------------- * HELICOPTER = A horizontal spin in the same space, usually above the head. * ROTOR = Any vertical spin that stays in one space. Same as HELICOPTER, but perpindicular to the ground. * 1/2SPIN = Where the staff has only spun 180, this is regardless of any other motions or actions. * FULLSPIN/DOUBLESPIN/TRIPLESPIN/ 1/4SPIN ETC= As above, 1 spin is a complete rotation and the rest as they apply. * FIGURE 8 = To do a 1/2SPIN on you left and right side with the path crossing directly in fron of you. A trail from the centre of the staff would make a sideways figure 8 wrapped around you. * SIDEWAYS FIGURE 8 = A FIGURE 8 where the 1/2SPINS are in front and behind you, instead of on either side. * POP = Simple flat throw into the air, horizontal without spinning unless otherwise stated. * OVERHEAD POP = Flat throw from the front and caught behind or from behind and caught in front. * CLOCKWISE = The spin of the staff in relation to the front of the staffer * ANTICLOCKWISE = Reverse of clockwise, or same direction but behind your back rather than in front. ----------Manipulation Movements---------- *PINWHEEL = When the staff spins in a large vertical circle made up of smaller circles. Most common pattern for a continous BTB move. * FINGERSPIN = To roll the staff through your fingers one-by one, keeping the staff stationary and spinning in a ROTOR or HELICOPTER. *** please note, FINGERSPINS do not need to travel along all five fingers, but the end action where the staff wraps under or over the hand to begin the motion again is seen as the end, not the beginning*** * PINKYSPIN = FINGERSPIN that begins with the pinky, and then to the ring finger, index finger and so on. * THUMBSPIN = Same as PINKYSPIN, but starting form the thumb and then traveling along the pointing finger, index finger and so on. * FORWARDS = To lead a movement or spin with the thumb on the leading part of the staff. As in slicing a sword down diagonally in front of you. * BACKWARDS = Same as FORWARDS, but with the pinky on the leading part of the staff. * FORWARDS FIGURE 8 = To lead with the thumb-half of the staff when doing a figure eight. * Wrap = To roll the staff lengthwise around a body part. * ARMWRAP/WRISTWRAP/NECKWRAP etc... * CATCH = To grasp the staff in one or both hands that were not holding it earlier ( ) * PINCH = To grip the staff between non-hand body parts, such as the shoulder and neck or the forearm and bicep. The staff continues to move or spin to be a pinch, otherwise it is a STALL. * NECKPINCH = To grip the staff between the neck and back or neck and chest while keeping it moving.* HANDWRAP = To release the staff while spinning it so that it rolls over or under your hand and then cathing it again. Often used during FINGERSPINS to keep the staff centred. * STALL = I'd like some more feedback on this, but would prefer a stall to be any move that stops the spin completely. * FOOTSTALL = Horizontal catch or movement with the staff stationary and horizontal on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat. * FOOTBALANCE = Balancing the staff on one end (preferably without fire) on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat * TOOTHGRAB = Any STALL or move where the staff is held by the mouth/teeth/TONGUE!!! etc. People like myself who experiment with moves like this should prepare themselves for ridicule... * TUCK = Like an underarm roll. To swing the staff under your armpit, either to catch it there or as part of another move. * PALMSPIN = To spin the staff in a flat palm, without using the fingers. * "insert body part here"SPIN = To spin the staff on your "IBPH" without using hands or arms. -----------Body Movements------------------ * 180 = Half-rotation of entire body (usually using feet) * PIROUETTE = Full-rotation of body * 45,90,270 = Well, you get the idea, aye? * LEFT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your left * RIGHT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your right * LEFT-TWIST[45][20][180!] etc = Swiveling the appropriate number of degrees, also includes RIGHT-TWISTS. ***Any move calling for 180 or more should put an "!" after it, coz its very hard to do!*** Miscellaneous *BURNOFF = To spin off excess fuel by spinning the staff horizontally on its own axis, sometimes producing two fireballs.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:We've had some discussions on adding CONTACT moves to the fray, which are basically wraps or rolls where the staff moves over the body without the hands directing it...suggestions anyone?PS If you disagree with the name of a term but understand what it means please lie low, otherwise this thread will just turn into name-bickering instead of helping us out to learn form each other...For reasons and history of these terms, search for the "naming Staff moves" and "naming staff moves II" threadsCheers all...------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Nicely done Mr Charles. I was thinking about bnumping the II thread but thought folks would be put off having to trawl through all that info. Now they don't have to.The old Cantus would've rewritten it all himself too. You must've found some of my lost enthusiasm.------------------C@ntusThere's only one way of life and that's your own.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Tempest
addict
Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:Nice one Charles!I'm with you on the stall. It should stop for (at least one milliheartbeat
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) for it to be named a stall.I started a thread on a 'weave with the staffs spinning opposite directions' If this does not already have a name do we call it that or can I call it Colin?That's it then double staff Colin it is then.


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Tempest
addict
Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:One more!Can we name the rotors forward and reverse instead of forward and backwards.Does clockwise and anti-clockwise mean as if it were viewed from above or as you look at it (if you were doing helicopters), I think all these should be viewed from above to get some kind of continuity.TEMPEST

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Tempest
addict
Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:Anyone gonna be so helpfull as to negotiate or state some existing names for contact staff?Oh go on you know you wanna
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[Nx?]
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yoyeah, nice. I think we should have a contact section because there are getting to be a lot of varients; underarn cross shoulder, rotor cross shoulder, shoulderblade pass, btb armwrap ect...Tempest, i recon the direction of the rotor coresponds better to the hand holding it rather that its movement relative to the body, seems more usefull.Love yaN

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Tempest - A forwards/backwards tends to imply a "leading edge" concept, which isn't present in a rotor, its just goes round and round in the same place, no edge leading as far as i know.Nix & Tempest...A rotor going clockwise (ie bottom part swinging up on the left and top part swinging down to the right) can be achieved by using :both hands at the same timeboth hands alternatingboth hands with one being the axis and the other pushing every now and thenone hand with a continous wrap on top/bottomone hand with a continous small throw and catch in frontone hand with a "chasing the momentum" move (like a devilstick rotor)fingerspin through all five fingersfingerspin through three fingersfingerspin with two fingersetc etc etcThis is where a lot of confusion has been in the past, someone thinks they are doing a move the same as someone else, because the path of the staff is the same, but when a transition comes in, suddenly no-one understands what's going on because the hand and staff are in different phases.The term rotor just denotes what the staff is doing itself, if you could delete the person from the equation and just see the staff following the moves through the air. So a rotor is any vertical spin in the same airspace.If people know that a rotor isn't done in any specific way they are more likely to describe the way they achieve it and also to question others who may forget.This thread isn't here to name all the moves, its to try and keep miscommunication and confusion to a minimum by having basic building blocks we can use when describing the simple actions involved in a combo...Does that make sense?------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 25 February 2002).]

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,I geddit charlie, but my point was that no matter how or what direction you spin the staff it will always be going 'backwards' for one hand and 'forwards' for the other. for example with fingerspins you diferentiate between pinky and thumb spins, thumb spins go forwards and pinky back. I cant really remember the point, but that was it.humm
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:here is some contact stuff that i do and i found it pretty easy to use the existing terms to explain them.horozontal forearm pinwheelright shoulder roll, to neck roll to left shoulder roll, 180degree body turn to the right and into right shoulder roll.1/2 waist wrap(set it on your back) to neck wrap.if you need more explanation just ask...upon reading Pele's post i must change my post. every time i use the word "roll" i mean wrap...[This message has been edited by pozee (edited 26 February 2002).]

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Very nice Charles!As for wraps and rolls, as with poi you can wrap and roll on just about any body part, I find naming them to be a little redundant. Forearm wrap, arm roll, back roll, leg wrap...I think the actual moves being explained is enough. Wrap, it goes around a body part, roll it moves along a body part. To define the fact that these can be done around every body part just seems like unnecesary effort.But this is simply my humble opinion, thanks for listening to it!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Oops...Sorry Nix, I omitted that the direction of a rotor is in relation to your chest.Clockwise if spinning the bottom half left and up and the top half right and downwards...Thanks for reminding me, it was in a different part of the thread that i didn't copy *smacks his own hand*.Pozee and Pele - You guys complimented each other's posts perfectly. Pele is right (when i think about it) that naming wraps is simply naming body parts. However, Pozee's comment on half wraps is brilliant!Most neckwraps that's I've seen are not full wraps (ending up at the starting point) but half-wraps.This is something that it would pay to define.So I say we leave out the body part wraps from the listing (as they are self explanatory) but keep halfwraps/1/4 wraps etc as a good building block tool.As an example, I do a wrap going diagonally across my belly that then wraps up the other side to my neck and shoulder.This would be a 3/4 waist to shoulder wrap.hows does that sound guys?------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I agree with that Charles and can completely see the logic, since when you do a partial wrap you have to have a beginning and ending point.Pozee, your post makes more sense to me now!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:yeah, it kind of sounded confusing to me when i wrote it...

anyone got a light?

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yahh cool,but I shal now be trying to invent tricks that break the terminological restraints! ha ha
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Tempest
addict
Location: Sheffield
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 522
Posted:Thanks for the contact stuff everyone.
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Charles, I think i'm with ya so far, just one thing though. If you do a helicopter (horizonal rotor above your head)do you call it as you see it if you look up.Good work gang, keep it comin'.TEMPEST


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Nix, go for it man, the more ways we have to think up moves the better. but know you have put yourself on the spot
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I expect to see a new move from you very very soon....(hee hee hee)Hmm, Tempest, that made me think, to the best of my knowledge, no-one has yet had the need to describe which direction the staff is spinning when doing a helicopter...Although should the need arise, I would guess that top of the head (if you look up) would be the right call.So front half spinning to the right and back half spinning to the left would be clockwise.And back half spinning to the right and fron half spinning to the left would be anti-clockwise.If that doesn't make snese, we can work on it or wait til a move comes up where that is as important as direction is for rotors and transitions...------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html


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Tempest
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Location: Sheffield
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Posted:Hold on Charles, you said call it as you see it (looking up at it)"so front half spinning to the right and back half spinning to the left would be clockwise" I presume to have a front half and back half, you must be holding the staff pointing forwards in regards to your chest. If this is so, isn't this anticlockwise?Just a small point in an otherwise flourishing thread.
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Cheers,TEMPEST


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
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Posted:Just my little gag to make sure you wer epaying attention and understanding the description (rushes over to the post with his Tippex bottle, hoping no-one will see him).
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,this 'roll' 'wrap' confusion has gotten me thinking, there are several staff moves that roll (along the axis of the staff) across the body part. for example 1/2 btb neckwrap followed by roll from shoulder to hand (with staff spinning under your arm), or palmspin rolling to elbow pinch and helecopter pinch-throw. humm... still on that undefinable trick but today I got a nice combo:3/4 btb cross-shoulder wrap to 3/4 btb underarm cross-shoulder wrap, turn 180, overshoulder btb pass, flourish.thats another area we havent really explored, flourishes. Im gonna put a couple up soon.anyway, nuff fer noo.N

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Cool, Nix, I actually understood what you were saying the whole way through (though it still pays to have staff in hand and go through the motions).Another nice one is from a BTH neckcatch, bend down low so the staff rolls into the small of your back and then flick yourself upright so it rolls quickly in the hollow behind your head and then flicks back up into the air.(didn;t use much of the terminolgy in there, did anyone understand me this time???)
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------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yeah, I gettit, its a hacky sack move.

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pozee
old hand
Location: san diego
Member Since: 27th Jul 2001
Total posts: 886
Posted:i got that one, it is kind of like a hacky sack trick (and i just noticed that i was not the only one to catch it) where you catch it on your neck while you are bent over and then bend down to get it rollin up your head, and then jerk your head straight up to launch it into the air.not sure if this has been said already in any of the previous threads but i like to do a horozontal neck wrap and right when you are supposed to catch it you "duck" your head and it goes around again and a little bit down your back and the end of it will come out from underneath your arm.oh yeah and another one that i thought i should share, you kind of need to be warmed up or naturally flexible. doing a hellicopter you will go to do a left leg wrap(without letting go, a pass maybe) and at the same time you drop to your right knee and duck your head so that the back of your neck is about parallel with th etop of your knee and when you do the leg wrap instead of passing it to your right hand, you pass it to on top of your neck to to a back of the neck spin, then you can just stick up your neck and it wraps. hope that is not a completely terrible explanation. i think it is maybe from a backwards helicopter. looking up it will be going anti or counter clockwise...[This message has been edited by pozee (edited 01 March 2002).][This message has been edited by pozee (edited 01 March 2002).]

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Charles
Charles

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Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ok, there has been a bit of confusion surrounding the following term* TUCK = Like an underarm roll. To swing the staff under your armpit, either to catch it there or as part of another move.I think that people may actually be talking about different moves but thinking it is the same. And I don't think I explained it properly either...I see this move as any motion where the staff is "ducked" under the armpit, using a flicking motion of the staff but still hanging on to it. It translates the path and energy for the spin into a sharp corner on a fulcrum instead of a round swing in circle.This is why it is different to other moves and enables a lot of body spinning where the staff stays relatively still.Does this make sense to anyone?
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------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:I geddit, found a nice behind the back pass today, bacwards from normal, the staff being tucked under the arm, passed behind the back and shoulderrolled (errmm...) to the front.what about the types of wrap that kind of ballace as you turn? like the exit of the nipplesplitter you told me about?N

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Dunno, you could call them a PIVOT perhaps. They aren't very common, so may not need to be part of this thread.A really fun one is to balance the staff on your head facing in one driection and then attempt a smooth 180 so you are facing the other direction with the staff falling off.It's easier with a light staff that has heavy ends, and looks very cool despite the fact that it sounds really silly.Usually a quick tilt of the head backwards lets it drop behind you for a very easy transition to a BTB catch. Gee I haven't done this sort of thing since I first picked up the staff, have to get back into it.------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

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maeon
member
Location: brisbane, queensland, australi...
Member Since: 13th Feb 2002
Total posts: 40
Posted:okay, these are a couple of things I call "basic moves" ...I can't see them 'named' anywhere in this thread, so I thought I'd mention them. I'm always open to correction.FLAT FLAT: This is basically a figure eight where the staff moves in horizontal planes, one infront of your body, and one above your head (repeat). It can also be done as a REVERSE flat flat, where the heel of the hand leads.THE SCOOP: This is like basically a sideways figure eight. However, when the staff comes infront of the body, it is the heel of the hand (not the thumb) that leads into the front spin. It results in some extra rotation of the staff, mainly behind the body.Does that make any sense?....it does bump the naming moves thread, and thats always a good thing right?maeon

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Thanks, Maeon, good to hear from you again too.I had to think a little about these moves, until I realised they are both translated figure eights, (if I've got it right).The scoop is currently called a BACKWARDS FIGURE 8, as aluded to with the reverse of your flat flat, which is a horizontal or HELICOPTER FIGURE 8.I've got no problem with giving these different names and with names for combos and translations, but is it ok if we stick to the FIGURE 8 terminology if people have trouble understanding?Or have I not got the moves in my head properly?------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

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Spyke
member
Location: Wageningen
Member Since: 22nd Feb 2002
Total posts: 28
Posted:I think Charles, that the flat flat is a HELICOPTER FIGURE 8, possible both forwards and backwards. The scoop on the other hand is a SIDEWARDS FIGURE 8 with an extra spin on the back. It is possible to do an extra spin of the staff in front too, to create an 4 beat figure eight. (one beat is one rotation, where a figure 8 is normally 2 beats.) Possible both forwards and backwards, when coming from back to front it is possible to really whip around the staff to tremendous speeds. i like to use it to form a super fast HELICOPTER SPIN.I hope this is what Maeon means.Spyke

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maeon
member
Location: brisbane, queensland, australi...
Member Since: 13th Feb 2002
Total posts: 40
Posted:Yes Charles, they are both variations on the figure eight.Flat flat = HORIZONTAL FIGURE 8I would veer away from calling it a helicopter figure 8 because the description of HELICOPTER means you would be changing hands (hand-over-hand) as you would for the ROTOR. But HORIZONTAL FIGURE 8 is fine for sticking with the existing terminology.THE SCOOP, as Spyke has so wonderfully explained isn't the backwards sideways 8. Thanks for your explanation - cause I was too confused to try and explain it with spins and such. It is the forwards sideways 8, but coming into the front of the body the heel of the hand leads. So if we want to stick with the rules:the scoop= FORWARDS SIDEWAYS FIGURE 8 WITH EXTRA TWIST BEHIND THE BACK.Imagine how long move names will be by the end!thanks again ...are these names better for keeping with the flow of things?maeon

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
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Posted:D'oh!!!! The double figure 8! My basic move i use all the time and I have to be reminded about it by other people, thanks guys...sometimes you just can't see the wood for the trees...Maeon Helicopter is a "staff movement" meaning a horizontal spin instead of a vertical one, the hand movements aren't part of the name, hell, it could even be a palmspin... and (looking at the long drawn out name)heh heh heh...these are just trying to name the basic piecemeal moves that are commonly used in staff, there are already a number of existing names for combo moves and I'm not even going to go against them. This thread is just a resource so that if you don't understand someones description, both you and the describee can go and make sure the descriptions match the movements...Thanks again guys, I'll get onto updating the list agin this weekend.------------------Charles (AKA INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggle.co.nz/fire/fire.html

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