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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:ok i dont want to hear any 'but this around the shoulder under the elbow through the nose move is so basic I thought you would know it'out of you punks
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forward shoulder roll, or, 360+180 figure 8, leading with thumb, turning wrist under, all good and happy.rvs shoulder roll, leading with pinky, what the heck is it? at the time I was briefly shown this I understood that this is easiest done up higher with arm more extended. I think I have the basic move figured out but the third 1/2 rotation is really awkward and, I think because I am trying to do it in the wrong plane or I am supposed to be turning my body or something . so. here is what I do in excruciating detail:assume this is my right hand. starting with staff in hand palm up, pinky finger is in towards my body. arm is extended about 75% out to the right. let pinky end of staff rotatedown, under arm, finish roation coming up and around on the back side of arm. now if it were just a plain figure 8, pinky end would just come back under the arm back to the front.for shoulder roll extra 1/2 turn I guess staff stays behind the arm and the pinky end rotated down behind forearm and thumb end comes up and over the top from the outside and by rolling your shoulder/forearm forward you get the pinky end back over to the front to repeat. (I sort of analagize this to doing a snake arms dance move) I assume you really want the staff rotation to happen in planes which are vertical and more or less parallel in front and behind, however it seems with the last half of this the end of staff wants to go towards the front and not to the side, about 85 degrees off from what you would want. I can force it to be more parallel by bending my elbow more but this doesnt really look like what the goal is. maybe im just not flexible enough? whats the idea there with wrist, forearm, shoulder?mind you I dont have anyone around here to watch, I am sure it must be one little element I am missing and it will all suddenly become smooth. actually, i do know a lot of people who twirled batons in their youths (like, my mom, who kicks ass with doubles, actually) and interestingly enough, none of them ever did anything by spinning the staff in reverse. so while I have learned a lot from them, this one thing has us all stumped. and they all also dont get why I would bother with a staff that's 3 feet long too.
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cheers,Peregrinea hoopy frood who really knows where her towel is


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jedimastah


member
Location: Round Rock TX , US

Total posts: 97
Posted:I don't know what the hell you are talking about but it sounds like it might be cool. Oh, and by the way, I also know where my towel is. And, the other day, I actually threw myself to the ground and missed. Can you believe it!?

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:and just to make the nomenclature confusing, the shoulder rolls dont actually involve rolling the staff over your shoulders, they are just so called because you have to roll your shoulder forward to get the extra twist...i think in the naming thread you call them 540 degree spins (360 +180) but everyone else calls them shoulder rolls...pere

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hyPeR_DeRMiC


member
Location: NJ, USA

Total posts: 5
Posted:Ok, i think i know what move u are talking about......how to get an extra spin... this can be done in foward or reverse.....me thinks its easier to learn reverse, and i think thats the one u are describing as a shoulder roll... cuz it kinda looks like its rolling over your shoulder.....right-o , first off these moves tend to be easier and work better when done out to the side of the body (figure 8's go in front and back of body, NOT side to side...) so standing with the staff in right hand start doing reverse figure 8's 1st rotation in front of the body, then one in back... each rotation gets 2 beats (by beats i mean an end of the staff passing by you) so ya get 2 beats in front then 2 beats in back... ok now comes the tricky(?) part.....after the 2nd beat in BACK, the staff would usually move to the front...... this is where u change things..... after the 2nd beat you let the staff continue in its path it should lock against your arm.. (bear in mind your grip CANNOT be very tight to do this move)so now stop the staff and take a look at your arm position...... one end of the staff should be behind you with part of it resting in the crook of your elbow... the other end should be pointing directly to the right..... THAT is the end to watch.....the end that is pointing away from your body forms the extra circle, bring that end up, then down in FRONT of your body in a circular motion, then return to a normal reverse figure 8..... it helps if u lean foward a bit and throw your shoulder into it...so in recap, u do reverse figure8's.... 2 beats in front 2 beats in back... then, when the staff is BEHIND you, you let it spin till it can spin no more (locks agaisnt your arm) then from there you draw an extra circle with the end that is pointing AWAY from your body, this circle will be in FRONT of your body..... then return to reverse fig 8'si dunno if this made any sense to you... staff moves are very hard to describe because everyone thinks in diffrent ways... or maybe its just me, ive never had a teacher, nor have i really taught by just text alone.....ah well, good luck! if ya need me to clarify lemme know....[hyper]

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Posted:Hey Pere,if you dont get what [Hyper] describes (I do, but I can do it
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) I'll try an alternate description for you...so let us know how you go?Josh


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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:and hey hyper is the one i learned the front version from on nantucket
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I think we got distracted by lunch or something before I figured out the finer details of the reverse version. will give it another go tonight or more likely this weekend when i get the nice warm dance studio with mirrors to practice in... Perehoopy frood, towel, etc.


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hyPeR_DeRMiC


member
Location: NJ, USA

Total posts: 5
Posted:oh, hey there kiddo! didnt know it was u... tho i had my suspicions... mystic rang a bell..... so hows everything been since we last spoke?things have taken off nicely in my neck o' da woods....Fer some reason im not on the nantucket list, i dont recive any posts or anyting.. im wonderin if u could mention something to someone and let em know :)danke![hyp]

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:people seem to be going into hibernation around here. kind of hard to practice with the staff outside now since, unlike poi, you actually have to have your fingers working for it to happen.i found out, the ceilings in my apartment are too low to play with the staff. I put the wicks on it so at least its not so painful to mess up with now, though I got a ridiculous huge bruise on my knee from it the other day. and also the back injury is still persisting, yay, which is sort of limiting things which require any back bending at all, like passing behind the knees which looks like a cool thing to do. I've sort of figured out this horizontal corkscrewy pass between hands in front and above head thing which I could see going around the back too but I cant pull it off. but your basic moving around and spinning has become much better. anyway, let me know if something fun happens down there in sunny new jersey
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I put a word in to the nantucket juice girl so hopefully you'll hear from her soon (I think shes travelling)will work on shoulder roll thing tomorrow, promise!cheers,Perea hoopy frood who really knows where her towel is.


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Peregrine - I'm a little confused but as far as I can tell, you are doing what I describe to the audience as a FIGURE32. Two full rotation in front of you and two full rotations behind you while doing a FIGURE8 move. And no fingerspins, closed hand tha whole way. Is this right?I know it should be called a FIGURE16 using logic but the crowds think it's spinning 4 times front and back if I call it 32.I also do the same move with doubles and call it a FIGURE64 (can you see the pattern
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)By the way, let you mum know that I use 1.5 metres doubles, and I know of at least two others (much taller than me, I'm a little firedancing hobbit!) who use even longer doubles...
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------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:well they call it the shoulder roll in bec and elke's firetwirling book...(a source of nomenclature one should not ignore if one is naming things?)Pere

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Ah but Charles is from New Zealand and is also a juggler. The combination of these two factors means that the poor mumbling fool can't read. In order to post on here his young lady reads everything out to him and he tells her what to write.In return he promises not to embarrass her in social situations.------------------C@ntusWe are old, we are young, we are in this together, vagabonds and children, we're prisoners forever, with pulses raging and eyes full of wonder, Kicking out behind us again.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:oh! so thats what it is!(ever sit around a hostel and play name that accent?)anyway, I figured out the thing
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catching in the elbow helps, before i was just laying it across my arm. still have flexibility issues but i guess theres nothing to be done about that but practice...so what should I learn next? Pere


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo peeps!I gottanother one for ya, and its easyer than the crook of the arm stuff (specially with doubles)when spinning at the side of your body, 2 beats each side let the staff come to the front for two beats and let the pinky end (which would normally go behind you and let it come in front.If you open your hand up and roll your shoulder the thumb end will go behind you whilst the pinky end comes infron of the body.when the stck is vertical, with pinky end parrelel to the leg twist your sholder back and bring the stick behind. you might want to crook your arm a little to get the rotation smooth and flat.discovered this a few days ago idly swinging a stick on the way somewhere else. I think the poll on where you learn your tricks should have had an 'all of the above' option.anyway, spin nice.six?(did my first performance last night, with a samba band, was pretty cool but a light mist and parrafin turned the concrete into a scating rink. all getting a bit perilious ;-)

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Young Lady??? (ok ok, i admit she does look young, but she's actually a gorgeous wonderful amazing person who's older than me...)hmmm, I've got that book at home, I'll have to get my 'young lady' to read it for me again...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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hyPeR_DeRMiC


member
Location: NJ, USA

Total posts: 5
Posted:Ahh, winter approches.... no more outdoors practice... (lucky fer us we secured a nice indoor area
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)ive been bustin my ass lately... trying to get as much practice in as humanly possible... since ya got teh shoulder roll down now, string the Revrse shoulder roll into a fowards shoulder roll in 2 clean movements....basically stand sideways again (staff to your right) spin reverse, do the "shoulder roll" (or whatever u wanna call it) then twist your body to the left, putting the staff behind you (still in your right hand), then from there, go DIRECTLY into a foward "shoulder roll"...... (it helps alot if you REALLY throw your shoulder foward on the 2nd one.... makes the move look alot more dramatic...)Hey i know its short notice, but the NYC b-man Decompression is this weekend.....If ya can get down here from Mystic, its this saturday... E-mail me if u can make it! [hyper]


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:This thread has really helped me get those extra spins, thanks. I also use Bec and Elke's excellent book, so to avoid confusion, I suggest we need a list of synonyms ie. shoulder roll with extra spin = Figure 16 (or 32 or whatever)
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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:It might be easier if I just use my terminology for the public, and use Bec & Elke's for the HoP...(bow, scrape, bow,scrape,bow...)------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Come on Charles, your descriptions are excellent. Counting the beats etc. is an exact and scientific way to describe the moves. Your descriptions provide a legend or if you like the derivations, that tie all the common names together. Everyone has their own pet names, but you provide the key to all the moves
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Personally, I'm just starting to understand all the terminology. Keep up the good work
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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I was practicing getting extra spins last night with a short 1 metre (36" staff), and there is a nice derivation here. Well, I think its a derivation, because I haven't seen anyone do the shoulder roll with extra spins. It could also be similar to what hyper and nix are describing, not sure.Anyhow, its basically the same move as described above, except instead of using the crook of the arm thing to bring the staff around to the other side, you do a wrist thing at hip level. Its a real wrist twister. You start-off with the staff horizontal in your hand, arms by the side, knuckles pointing towards the ground. Then you start doing regular fig 8's at hip level (front to back or whatever) and keep adding the extra spins until the wrist starts to coil up (snake like as Pere mentioned) on one side, and then uncoils on the other. I can't describe what my wrists are doing, except they really twist up, and then you hit or feel the transfer position (going from front to back and visa versa). I will figure out a better description of the transfer. Once you get the transfer going smoothly, the staff just takes off, and you start to get this really amazing flow, as the staff moves from the front of the body to behind the body (well, its a bit out to the side). I prefer the reverse (backwards) version. Perhaps, it's just the shoulder roll with extra spins, I don't know, but it's feels great. The staff just glides around low, very close to the body, spinning like a demon. Anyone know what I'm on about?
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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Peregrine


member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA

Total posts: 428
Posted:the coiling the wrist thing is not really what I meant by the snake arms thing, which is a middleastern dance/bellydance/raks sharki whatever PC name you want to call it move.the snake arms is seemingly always taught with the admonition "shoulder, elbow, wrist, and down! shoulder, elbow, wrist, and down!" which is sort of the same thing you do with the above mentioned staff move. to get it smooth you have to roll your shoulder forward to get your elbow to come up and then roll your forearm to get your wrist over the top in that sort of seamless snaky way. you do it with both arms and they say the visualization is its sort of like you are rolling a marble down your arm from one finger to the other finger. i can describe it more if all you guys want to learn it, if you dont know the breakdancing version already...
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Pere


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:That wrist action actually gives you tons of simlar moves that look visually very different.Try it down low, try it near your waist and try it above your head (hard for me without bringing it across my face).This gives you about 20 different moves when you mix it all up, and can look amazing...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey, thanks for the tips. I thought I was a bit out-there with this one
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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Hey charles,should we differentiate between a shoulder roll and a wristroll, the second being when the staff comes back and lies along the wrist?Got the forward wristroll this evening. very freaky, its gonna take a while to get thease smooth and my left dont like it much. But its worth it? good. it always is...
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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hyPeR_DeRMiC


member
Location: NJ, USA

Total posts: 5
Posted:Hrmm i have an idea, perhaps someone has mentioned it already, but here goes....as far as describing staff is concerned, sometimes its hard to figure out what end of the staff the "teacher" is talking about... so what if we used color codeing to describe the ends of the staff... just take a piece of red tape, and put it on one end, and a piece of blue tape to the other...then u can describe starting positions, right hand, red end up, moving fowards/down, blue moving away/up...... etc...it may help people with poor visulation skillz (like myself) if i can use a bit of color in my visulations it makes it alot easier.....[hyper]

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Hyper, its a good idea for teaching peaple in front of you, and if you wanta put red on the front (comming from the top of the hand) and blue on the back (commin from the pinky) to remind you thats a cool idea, but for post descriptions the coulers are a bit arbatary and some moves (3 beat doubles for example) have the front end on the stick is constantly changing as they add 1/2 spins through the fingers.Might try it for one-to-one teaching tho. could be cool.Love,#@#?

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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